Hastatis kill my hoplites

[kofti]

I am playing with greek cities. i am fighting with green romans and blue romans at the same time. United the greece land, but can't get appolania. My only infantry is hoplites ( some towns armored hoplites ), they are so lousy, they cant run, and hastatis can kill them easily. Don't have Greek cities have some units that is an advantage ?

[Shadow]

I think the reason that your hoplites can't run is because they are in phalanx square. The hoplites should be able to take those hastatis with out much of a problem. Why not try using the phalanx to hold the enemy and send some calavry into their rear.

[econ21]

I think in a face-to-face fight, phalanxes should beat hastati. I recall that in a German campaign, my spear phalanxes could walk over the Romans with virtually no loss. Armoured hoplites in particular have good stats and should do well.

The problem for me with phalanxes is getting the hastati to get into a face-to-face scrap. The hastati move faster, as you say, so if they want to run past you, it is very hard for a phalanx to catch them. And the Greeks are lacking good flankers for the edges of their phalanx line.

I would recommend you hire Cretan archers and get other missile troops so you can punish enemies that do not close. You probably have to accept that your phalanx is not going to move fast, so let ranged troops pressure the enemy as you plod along.

Get a sufficient number of phalanxes that you can present a reasonably solid link and make it harder for the Romans to go at your hoplites piecemeal. It's all about making sure that when it comes to it, the Romans are facing your pointy sticks and not your flanks.

On your flanks, you might try militia cavalry - they are useful for harassment and later for pursung routers. There may be some mercs you can hire to act as flankers with more punch - Bastarnae infantry and Sarmatian heavy cavalry, for example. But Greeks do suffer from lack of variety - you basically have phalanxes and have to learn how to use them.

[Leonin Khan]

on wich settings are you playing...that should make a real difference

[orangat]

The problem is that long pike phalanx units in RTW is bugged/broken. Such units have trouble engaging enemies in phalanx mode which is why the BI expansion removed many of such units (instead of fixing the root problem).

I wonder if the supposedly free Alexander campaign fixes the problem.

[_Aetius_]

Lately i've developed a tactic that I think will largely negate the Roman infantrys superior speed.

As Simon stated the Greeks lack good flankers and hastati can easily whip around behind phalanxs who struggle to catch them. My solution is to put your phalanxs on the flanks and have a softer centre say bastarnae infantry or thracians, with Sarmatian heavy cavalry behind them to ensure the infantry doesnt break easily.

Your best troops will be on the flanks and the enemy will have a much longer trip trying to wrap around you if your line is longer and your phalanxs are on the flanks with cavalry and peltast support. Many will be drawn into your softer centre, which means your flanks have a good opportunity to envelop the enemy, if your centre looks like its close to breaking, charge your cavalry into the enemy infantry and if it is indeed hastati then they'll likely break and flee.

It is risky, but I think by having your best troops on the wings you compensate for the Greeks' lack of good flanking troops and the enemies ability to flank you. You can hire mercenaries to improve your cavalry and offer adequate support to your flanks and centre along with archers or slingers.

I've tried it a few times and it does work, you just need to ensure you have good cavalry support, once you break the Roman wings you can quite easily converge on the Roman centre already embattled with your own centre and win the battle.

[econ21]

I must confess I am really struggling to use my phalanxes well in a Seleucid PBM I am playing. Unlike the Greeks, the Seleucids have awesome flankers - cataphracts, elephants, scythed chariots, (I don't have legionnaires yet) - and it is these guys that do nearly all of the fighting for me.

The few times my phalanxes connect with the enemy - in the town forums - it is often a humiliation - as when tonight a Roman general's unit killed 100 Silver Shields because they were not braced for impact. :embarassed:

So, like the original poster, I'd welcome any good tactics for phalanxes. I can see why people say Alexander needed his shield bearers and Companions - phalanxes alone seem to make up rather desultory armies.

[orangat]

I disagree with putting phalanx units on the flanks. The reason being their poor mobility make them unsuitable for running about the flanks trying to envelop or contain enemy units. The only way to neatly contain the flanks in phalanx mode instead of the weaker secondary attack is through micromanaging.

At least with putting phalanx units in the middle, you can be sure that the only way enemy units are going to get past is from the flanks.

[Papewaio]

Phalanxs in a line supported with counter assault units and slingers to the rear. A general with a cav unit or two is good for running down fleeing units.

Be static until the majority of your missiles run out.

Cheesy method:

Camp in the corner.

*
*P
*OP
*OAP
*OHAP
*OOHAP
*OOGHAP
*OOOOOOP
************

Slightly weight the counter assault units to the right flank as it may break first.

Good idea to have overlapping alternate versions of phalanxs

Out on the plain being brave form a square or horseshoe out of the phalanxs and have assault units for support

[Quietus]

I am playing with greek cities. i am fighting with green romans and blue romans at the same time. United the greece land, but can't get appolania. My only infantry is hoplites ( some towns armored hoplites ), they are so lousy, they cant run, and hastatis can kill them easily. Don't have Greek cities have some units that is an advantage ? Do Greeks have basic archers?

1) If so, position the archers in long lines behind the phalanxes and waste the Hastati first with arrows. Hire mercenary cretan archers if you don't have one. Preferably, shoot and weaken the units on the fringe where you will flank later but you need to weaken all his units, especially the ones upfront.

2) Then, right-click-drag and run the phalanxes in front of the hastati in normal mode. Then switch to phalanx formation. (use this if you want an accurately rendered line)

3) OR better yet Charge with your phalanx in normal mode, then before impact, halt, then switch to phalanx mode. (use this if the enemy are in disarray and making a long line doesn't matter).

4) Use your general's cavalry to flank the seams of the line. You can also use hoplites to flank using step 2 or 3 (only you use it to the flank or the back instead of the front).

Lastly, be wary of the elite roman troops. Arrows do not significantly hurt those fellas. And use a General with a 'healer' retinue. Also, when the AI has heavy cavalry, make the phalanx depth thicker (they can really chew on them really fast).

[x-dANGEr]

First of all, if you're play on VH battle diff, hesitaties will chew your phalanx no matter what in 1 on 1 I think.

Though, if on normal settings, their is one thing you need to understand about phalanx, they aren't for walking, they are for standing. I mean, keeping your phalanx braced gives them the strangth, so make the enemy run to you, and watch it's ultimate death. As Greek Cities, I think you should make a box, and draw enemy to you with archers fire/onagers..

[_Aetius_]

I disagree with putting phalanx units on the flanks. The reason being their poor mobility make them unsuitable for running about the flanks trying to envelop or contain enemy units. The only way to neatly contain the flanks in phalanx mode instead of the weaker secondary attack is through micromanaging.

At least with putting phalanx units in the middle, you can be sure that the only way enemy units are going to get past is from the flanks.

To be honest it was originally developed for the Macedonians who have excellent cavalry so offer the mobility needed on the flanks, the Greeks lack decent cavalry so it wont be as effective. The basic influence behind the tactic is Cannae, a soft centre, strong flanks and superior cavalry to achieve double-envelopment. Its great way to destroy a good Roman army.

Phalanxs have no chance of winning if flanked, it has to be stopped at all costs, it may take some micro-managing, but it isnt a tactic for every battle anyway, just one of many you can use, if you have weak flanks as the Greeks tend to do, then you Phalanxs in the centre are in serious danger of being cut to pieces from a number of directions.

[econ21]

I am trying to understand why my Seleucid phalanxes are useless when my German ones rocked.

I suspect the difference is partly that with my earlish German army, all I had pretty much were the phalanxes. So I would have a very long line that was hard to flank and could just roll over hastati.

With Seleucids there are so many juicy picks that even with a full stack, I find I am only taking 5 or so phalanxes. The problem is that phalanxes are such a compact formation, that five in a row has a very small frontage and it is easy for the AI to skirt round them.

Maybe the implication is that in field battle, if you are going to have a phalanx army, then have a phalanx army and bring a lot.

How many phalanx units do other players put into a full stack army?

[Quietus]

First of all, if you're play on VH battle diff, hesitaties will chew your phalanx no matter what in 1 on 1 I think. First, what unit size are you guys using? The huge unit size is practically impenetrable to normal troops.

Secondly, hence an archer-backed phalanxes are necessary. Or else, those Hastati and Principes will unload their pila first.

Other than that, the pre-marian troops are really outclassed by regular phalanxes.


How many phalanx units do other players put into a full stack army? Depending on the enemy troop types, the corresponding unit quality and timeframe if the phalanx is available already (eg. Pontus). A Mercenary Hoplite to 8 phalanx pikemen, normally.

On Regular midcampaign battles as Pontus, it is 6-8 phalanx pikemen normally.

[kofti]

Update using hoplites and fighting romans

1 ) I wiped out green and blue romans. on my way to rome, and red ones now.
2 ) I learned to make my hoplite out of phalanx mode than back.
3 ) I am using them close on flanks so nobody gets between, they only fight in front.
4 ) I started to use archers.

I checked the unit guide, It says cretan archers and rhodian slingers. Can I make them or are they mercenaries limited to certain areas ? Also can I make spartan hoplites in every city or only in certain cities ?

thanks for all your help. Greeks are really fun to play with. I am fighting with selucids and pontus on the east, red romans and carthage on the west now. ( campaign and battle difficulty : hard )

[Watchman]

Cretans and Rhodians are both mercs. You can find them around the Aegean Sea, and of course the appropriate isles. The Balearic Slingers available in parts of Western Med are virtually identical to the Rhodians.

Spartans can only be trained in Sparta. Tough love. :shame:

[Ludens]

I checked the unit guide, It says cretan archers and rhodian slingers. Can I make them or are they mercenaries limited to certain areas ? Also can I make spartan hoplites in every city or only in certain cities ?
Cretan Archers and Rhodian Singers are mercenaries, but are listed with the Greek faction in the unit guide because they are available to Greece in MP. You can hire Cretans on Sicily, Crete and Greece. Rhodians are available on Rhodes and south-west Asia Minor. Spartans can be recruited only in Sparta (and Syracuse if you use the 1.2 patch).

[orangat]

To be honest it was originally developed for the Macedonians who have excellent cavalry so offer the mobility needed on the flanks, the Greeks lack decent cavalry so it wont be as effective. The basic influence behind the tactic is Cannae, a soft centre, strong flanks and superior cavalry to achieve double-envelopment. Its great way to destroy a good Roman army.

I'm having trouble following you. If Macedonians used cavalry on the flanks why would you use phalanx units which are unsuitable for the task?


Phalanxs have no chance of winning if flanked, it has to be stopped at all costs, it may take some micro-managing, but it isnt a tactic for every battle anyway, just one of many you can use, if you have weak flanks as the Greeks tend to do, then you Phalanxs in the centre are in serious danger of being cut to pieces from a number of directions.

Which is even more reason why phalanx units are unsuitable. The AI might be dumb enough to charge into spearmen but a opponent who makes good use of cavalry units will never engage head-on and will either get a flanking advantage or maintain a standoff.

The phalanx is an all or nothing inflexible unit. In phalanx mode they have poor mobility. In secondary mode their attack sucks. I don't see much use for phalanx units at the flanks except as a good speedbump for chariots.

[Watchman]

Speed bump ? From what I've seen chariots perish en masse when they hit those spear-points...

I think overly phalanx-heavy armies are kinda annoying. Wathing the flanks is a real pain, and often seems to be a question of sheer number of units (ie. how many enemy units you can tie down). It's probably worth it to stretch the mian pike line to about minimum viable depth to cover the enemy frontage just to that you have a couple of spare phalanxes free in the flanks - after all, something that has a phalanx attacking both its front and its side tends to crumble kinda fast. But for every flank where you turn a phalanx against the side of an already engaged unit you still need something to cover the vulnerable flank and rear of that phalanx if there's still unengaged enemy units about (all the more so if they're cvalry). Sans mercs about the best non-phalanx units the Greeks can muster for the job are Heavy Peltasts and Greek Cavalry, neither of which are something I'd particularly count on to have too much effect against decent shock cavalry, rampaging barbarian heavy infantry, nasty-looking Romans in their skirts, Desert Axes with their Protection Factor 3,000 sunscreen - or loose enemy phalanxes...

[econ21]

Just won a couple of decisive victories over the Romans with a Seleucid army that kinda resembled a Greek one (8 phalanxes, 1 Cretan, 2 archers, 2 Rhodians, 2 militia cav, 2 light infantry... ok 2 chariots + 1 ellie, but they were not used much, honest).

What the phalanx line did was hold off the hastati. Even though I was the attacker, the Romans approached, but often would not close - often turning tail and being shot in the back - and could not flank me (I matched their line). The archers and especially the slingers did the killing. It reminded me a little of my spearwall + missile tactics in MTW.

Play the Greeks like Medieval English and you might not go too far wrong.

[General4Hire]

The problem is that long pike phalanx units in RTW is bugged/broken. Such units have trouble engaging enemies in phalanx mode which is why the BI expansion removed many of such units (instead of fixing the root problem).

I wonder if the supposedly free Alexander campaign fixes the problem.

Sega/CA never implied in any way shape or form that Alexander was going to be free. All that's happened is that tons of members of the community have hoped/speculated whether it will be or not...that's IT.

So no...there is no "supposedly free Alexander Campaign"...total fantasy, no such animal.

[econ21]

Does anyone think phalanxes are still a little underpowered against heavy cav in 1.5? Frontally, Roman armoured bodyguards seem to chew threw them, as do cats. On medium battles, without great generals or other favoruable factors, they seem to use their mass or whatever to penetrate throw the wall of pikes and then cut down sword-wielding pikemen. And this is not to do with the charge bonus or lack of bracing - it's the post-charge or non-charge melees I'm talking about.

[Kalray]

I am A noob playing V1.5. Im Playing a roman faction( I havent unlocked the others yet so you might want to take my posts with a pinch of salt) and I Have a lot of respect for Hoplites. It's true that they are slow and clumsy and if you can get behind them with cavalry or good infantry you can go thru them like a knife thru butter. However, when I've faced large numbers of them and/or not been able to flank them they have caused me huge problems. They are a very defensive unit. I have quite a few mercenary hoplite troops lying about. When I combine them with cavalry on the flanks and some fire support theyve been fantastic. I still have strong well used units of hoplites hired in the very first few turns of the game and even now (when I can recruit some really top roman legion units) they are still useful when you can force the enemy to attack them front on. You cant pull sneaky stunts with them but if I was a roman I'd rather take my chances naked against the Lions than charge their front. The hardest part of using Hoplites is keeping them facing the right way when the proverbial hits the fan and all chaos has broke loose but I've seen the computer regroup against me by sacrificing some whilst getting others to come at me from two directions. Keep your general close to make sure your lines hold. They dont fare well when bombarded either but if you group and move them forward( Dont put them right up against the edge of your deployment zone start them further back so that they cant be flanked early in the battle) this will minimise the damage. Didn't some one once say that the invention of missiles ended the art of war? or, to quote Harold 'ARGGHH MY EYE you -'

[orangat]

Sega/CA never implied in any way shape or form that Alexander was going to be free. All that's happened is that tons of members of the community have hoped/speculated whether it will be or not...that's IT.

So no...there is no "supposedly free Alexander Campaign"...total fantasy, no such animal.

If CA is not releasing a patch and expect users to pay for a fix for the phalanx bug and tower bug, it will leave a bad taste in my mouth. BI was all about hordes since the phalanx was screwed up, I expect the Alexander campaign to fix the phalanx bug.

[Ludens]

If CA is not releasing a patch and expect users to pay for a fix for the phalanx bug and tower bug, it will leave a bad taste in my mouth. BI was all about hordes since the phalanx was screwed up, I expect the Alexander campaign to fix the phalanx bug.
To be honest, I don't think it will come with a patch. They will just add some new content for people who cannot get enough of the game. Also, this is actually the first time I hear about a phalanx bug. What does do exactly?

[Gealai]

Use the phalanx as base/fortress for your light and mobile troops - you shouldn't have any problems with that against the AI. As Simon pointed out it is pointless to have long pointy things holding slow guys :shame: without at least one or two cavalry and missile units.


So you always should try to taunt your enemy so that he attacks you with your guys well ordered. In order to get him to do so you need missile units or/and light cavalry - Militia Cavalry in your case. The phalanx should than stop the enemy so that you can threat the rear and flanks. Than, to make the victory complete you need cavalry, so that the phalanx can stay in line.

In short: My lousy poem of the Phalanx :sweatdrop:
a) The missile units do the gunning so that the enemy must come running
b) The phalanx gets the frontal ramming so that your rest comes from the flanks slamming
c) The cavalry does the all the chasing so that to death the enemy is racing.

Usually all goes fine that way, but yesterday, playing EB I lost my Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai ~ more or less a armored Hoplite - to two falxwielding Drapanai because my dear double chivron veterans couldn't decide to lower their :furious3: spears and kept saying hallo to each other instead of facing the enemy. Needless to say that my girlfriend was looking afterwards at me strangly given that I was shouting: "Tzio prott tua decht v'rdommt amol dei hurn spear oi, wos mochtsn es lai dei gonze Zeit! Losstz deas umertandtln" :no:

BTW it means more or less: "Could you please be kind enough to lower your spears, it is strange what you are doing all the time! I would be thankful if you could stop it" :inquisitive:

by Gealai

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How is the phalanx bugged??????????????

My Macedonian line is inpenatrable, everything dies, then the Heavy Cav mop up anyone who gets remotely near the flanks.

My lines:


CCC------PPPPPPPPPP------CCC
-----------A A A AG

P-: Phalanx
C: Cavalry
A: Archers
G: General

Unstopable, especially against Romans, they have no Phalanx, so they die.

[Avicenna]

[/quote=Wigferth Ironwall]My Macedonian line is inpenatrable, everything dies, then the Heavy Cav mop up anyone who gets remotely near the flanks.

My lines:


CCC------PPPPPPPPPP------CCC
-----------A A A AG

P-: Phalanx
C: Cavalry
A: Archers
G: General

Unstopable, especially against Romans, they have no Phalanx, so they die.
[/quote]

Some triarii or any cohorts can do the trick: decimating your cavalry, then getting rid of the phalanx while the roman cavalry (or artillery!) deals with your phalanx.

But of course, the AI is too stupid to use the romans properly.

[orangat]

To be honest, I don't think it will come with a patch. They will just add some new content for people who cannot get enough of the game. Also, this is actually the first time I hear about a phalanx bug. What does do exactly?

Well its not a single bug per se. More a collection of niggly annoyances like drift(fixed), buttspike, failure to attack, horse jumping breaking phalanx mode, problems getting into phalanx mode. Theres one or 2 threads in the Ludus Magna.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Look at the gap between Cav and Phalanx. In order to attack the Cavalry with Cohorts you would need about 4 cohorts, as the Companions will give you the run around and as soon as you hit one the others will flanks, not to mention you expose your back to pikes.

Given that all you or most of your cohorts are tied up fighting my Cav My Infantry can just form square with archers in the middle and kill you cav.

My formation forces you to invert yours and leaves you un able to exicute hammer-and-anvil.

[Drock]

Spartans can only be trained in Sparta. Tough love. :shame:

I don't know if its a bug or not, but in my Greek campaign I was also able to train Spartan Hoplites in Syracuse.

[Ludens]

I don't know if its a bug or not, but in my Greek campaign I was also able to train Spartan Hoplites in Syracuse.
For some reason, Syracuse had the "Sparta" resource, allowing it to recruit Spartan hoplites. I think this was fixed in 1.3.