Islamic Law Coming to Russia

[Lemur]

Here's an interesting front in the battle over where sharia will be imposed -- Russia. Moscow has cancelled its gay pride parade because Islamists threatened physical violence against the marchers. Article here. (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article345947.ece) I know people have a variety of opinions and feelings about gay people, and how public or private they ought to be. But no matter where we stand on the issue, our arguments should be just that -- arguments. Physical threats should be treated like the ignorant, backward-minded blackmail that they are.

Of note is the fact that the person making the threat is not an extremist who does day work for Al-Qaeda, but rather a mainstream cleric.


Chief Mufti Talgat Tadzhuddin warned that Russia's Muslims would stage violent protests if the march went ahead. "If they come out on to the streets anyway they should be flogged. Any normal person would do that - Muslims and Orthodox Christians alike ... [The protests] might be even more intense than protests abroad against those controversial cartoons."

The cleric said the Koran taught that homosexuals should be killed because their lifestyle spells the extinction of the human race and said that gays had no human rights.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'm against gay parades, as I agree that it is a celebration of, if not sin, an act that is disgusting, to me at least.

But I completely agree that it would be wrong to threaten violence against such a parade.

This may just be the begining; Muslims, through threats of violence, have managed to control what people can do. I hope that the West can find its spine (I include the USA, with Bush speaking against the Danish cartoons) before all the women are covered and piglets thrown away. I wouldn't have guessed Russia to be one to bow down in this way.

Here's an interesting part of the article:

An opinion poll last year showed 43 per cent of Russians believed gay men should be incarcerated.

That's a heck of a lot of public opinion against gays. Now, I don't think they should be incarcerated, but nor do I think they should go around having parades.

Crazed Rabbit

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Is it because of the Muslims though or because prevailing public opinion goes with them?

Anyone who actually thinks Sharia will come into force without a Muslim majority is smoking some pretty strong stuff. One day they'll push too far and everyone will snap.

[Meneldil]

Russians are among the few people who as conservatives and intolerant as the average Bush-voter or Muslim believer. Actually, I'm fairly sure the average russian is fairly happy with the parade being cancelled.



Anyone who actually thinks Sharia will come into force without a Muslim majority is smoking some pretty strong stuff. One day they'll push too far and everyone will snap.

Totally agreed. We can already see how Europeans acted with the caricatures, and how the extreme right is growing a bit everywhere. It's sad but I think it will end up pretty badly, if the muslim population in Europe doesn't learn how to behave in a civilized society.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The article doesn't say that 'Moscow has cancelled its gay pride parade because Islamists threatened physical violence against the marchers'.

Rather, "Plans to stage Russia's first gay pride parade have been vetoed by Moscow's city government on the grounds that the idea has caused "outrage" in society." :book:


Mayor Yuri Luzhkov's administration said yesterday it would not even consider an application for a parade

The Russian Orthodox Church has called it "the propaganda of sin". Bishop Daniil of Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk yesterday condemned the plans as a "cynical mockery" and likened homosexuality to leprosy.

The mayor's spokesman, Sergei Tsoi, said a parade would not be allowed. "[The plans] have caused outrage in society, particularly among religious leaders," he said.


Edit: Firstly, there is not a muslim behind everything that's wrong in this world. Secondly, I'd say that many parts of Europe need to learn how to behave like a civilized society themselves.

[Dâriûsh]

What a pompous buffoon. That Mufti is the one who declared holy war on America a few years back. Read up on him, he is most certainly not mainstream, if by that you mean moderate. :dizzy2:


And indeed a very nice hateful thread title I might add.


Oh, and for the record, that 'Mufti' is the one who is the pompous buffoon.

[Lemur]

Well, from the sounds of it, I got just about everything wrong in my initial post. About all that's left is for me to be talking about the wrong country ...

[Dâriûsh]

But at least you managed a provocative thread title. :idea2:

[Lemur]

It seemed so simple at first. Gay people. Angry Muftis. Russia. What could be more perfect for the Backroom? Oh well. I'll file this deep in my "Threads I Wish I Hadn't Started" file.

[Meneldil]

Edit: Firstly, there is not a muslim behind everything that's wrong in this world. Secondly, I'd say that many parts of Europe need to learn how to behave like a civilized society themselves.

Agreed, but I've yet to see a non muslim european calling for the beheading of those who say [insert a random claim here] in public, burning a girl because she refused to marry him, or having 4 different wives.

[Dâriûsh]

It seemed so simple at first. Gay people. Angry Muftis. Russia. What could be more perfect for the Backroom? Oh well. I'll file this deep in my "Threads I Wish I Hadn't Started" file.

If you had titled it “Pompous reactionary Mufti talks out of his rear” I wouldn’t have complained. ~;)

[Louis VI the Fat]

Nobody wins 'em all, Lemur. You've still got a track record of 1087 minus 1 excellent posts. ~;)

~:cheers:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Agreed, but I've yet to see a non muslim european calling for the beheading of those who say [insert a random claim here] in public, burning a girl because she refused to marry him, or having 4 different wives.In another thread, we'll join forces again to protect European values from the extremist fringes of Islam. :balloon2:

[Divinus Arma]

And indeed a very nice hateful thread title I might add.




Why is the title: "Islamic Law Coming to Russia" a hateful title?

[Dâriûsh]

Why is the title: "Islamic Law Coming to Russia" a hateful title? I am sorry but I find it provocative. As if all Muslims have an agenda for world domination.

A gay pride parade was cancelled in Russia, and he (Lemur) indicated that the sole reason it was cancelled was because of Islamic threats.

[Divinus Arma]

I am sorry but I find it provocative. As if all Muslims have an agenda for world domination.

I don't think anybody believes that Islam itself is to blame. As I and others have mentioned here, it is the intolerant views of some extremist Muslims that are to blame. (Just as intolerant Christianity is also to blame for some tragedies) There is a real fear in the west, and justifiably so, that Islam is wholly intolerant of western ideals.

To his credit, Lemur admitted his error in judging the representation of this one cleric. However, please place these views in the broader context of current events. Recently, Europe and the UN were called upon to enact legislation that would make blasphemy illegal. This is very much an indication of Islamic values spreading into other cultures.

While all world religions are entitled to respect by their adherents, religion is not entitled to respect by non-believers. It is precisely this perspective that westerners, and I would speak primarily for Americans, hold dear as a central tenent of government with the consent of the governed. We here in the U.S. allow demonstrations by homosexuals, Nazis, and others who are repulsive to many. The basic understanding is that freedom of speech prevents a tyranny of the majority. It protects the rights and free thinking of even those dismissed by the masses.


A gay pride parade was cancelled in Russia, and he (Lemur) indicated that the sole reason it was cancelled was because of Islamic threats.

Fair enough. But it is not an entirely unreasonable leap.


I understand that it is difficult to see a belief system that you hold dear attacked by the ignorant masses, myself included. But that is our right in liberty, regardless of whether it is right in morality.

I hope I don't sound condescending, that is not my intent.

[A.Saturnus]

Agreed, but I've yet to see a non muslim european calling for the beheading of those who say [insert a random claim here] in public, burning a girl because she refused to marry him, or having 4 different wives.

And wanting to incarcerate homosexuals doesn`t count??

[Proletariat]

And wanting to incarcerate homosexuals doesn`t count??

Exactly! Why has this all of a sudden become much-ado-about-nothing just because the imbecilic Russian masses agree??

"Oh, thank God it wasn't just Muslims who think homos should be persecuted. The Russians are participating so party on, guys."

[LeftEyeNine]

Agreed, but I've yet to see a non muslim european calling for the beheading of those who say [insert a random claim here] in public, burning a girl because she refused to marry him, or having 4 different wives.

Since a Muslim is not calling for these, non-Muslim Europeans do the right thing to keep peaceful, what is wrong with it?

[Dâriûsh]

I don't think anybody believes that Islam itself is to blame. As I and others have mentioned here, it is the intolerant views of some extremist Muslims that are to blame. (Just as intolerant Christianity is also to blame for some tragedies) There is a real fear in the west, and justifiably so, that Islam is wholly intolerant of western ideals.

To his credit, Lemur admitted his error in judging the representation of this one cleric. However, please place these views in the broader context of current events. Recently, Europe and the UN were called upon to enact legislation that would make blasphemy illegal. This is very much an indication of Islamic values spreading into other cultures.
And there is indeed also a real fear in the Muslim world that the west is wholly intolerant of Islamic ideals and values. It seems that ever since the World Trade Centre massacre, the understanding between the worldwide Islamic community and “the west” has deteriorated to a worrying state. Or perhaps one could question if there had ever been one in the first place. :dizzy2:

Considering recent events, as well as past events, then yes, the Muslim world has a large proportion of religious screwballs. These screwballs get a lot of media attention, so I can also understand why many people in the west feel threatened. I guess the discomfort that you might feel when Muslim zealots (oh irony) meddle in your domestic affairs, is comparable to what many Muslims feel when western nations meddle in theirs. Sort of a clash of cultures on a global scale.



While all world religions are entitled to respect by their adherents, religion is not entitled to respect by non-believers. It is precisely this perspective that westerners, and I would speak primarily for Americans, hold dear as a central tenent of government with the consent of the governed. We here in the U.S. allow demonstrations by homosexuals, Nazis, and others who are repulsive to many. The basic understanding is that freedom of speech prevents a tyranny of the majority. It protects the rights and free thinking of even those dismissed by the masses.

I understand that it is difficult to see a belief system that you hold dear attacked by the ignorant masses, myself included. But that is our right in liberty, regardless of whether it is right in morality.

I hope I don't sound condescending, that is not my intent. No, you do not sound condescending at all. ~:)

I am far from deeply religious, I guess it is more of a cultural thing to me, but being a Muslim is still a part of who I am.

Healthy debate and dialogue is good and should be encouraged, and do not worry, I have no wish to impose restrictions on freedom of speech. Furthermore, punishment for blasphemy is a thing of the past, and it should stay there. In regards to the cartoon incident, what irked me was not the act of blasphemy, it was the culmination in a very hostile and very one-sided national debate.

[Divinus Arma]

I guess the discomfort that you might feel when Muslim zealots (oh irony) meddle in your domestic affairs, is comparable to what many Muslims feel when western nations meddle in theirs.

Aside from, you know, regime change, what meddling is being done?

[solypsist]

Let's add to this: it seems Iran and US are united in their hatred of gays.

At the same time the United States is having an internal debate about whether or not to bomb Iran (or take some type of military action) to stop their nuclear program the US is siding with Iran in a debate at the United Nations to "deny UN consultative status to organizations working to protect the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people...

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/25/iran12535.htm

http://www.ebar.com/images/articles/26_EDITORIALcartoon_07.jpg

[Meneldil]

And wanting to incarcerate homosexuals doesn`t count??

Did I say Russia was civilized ? It's probably the most intolerant country on earth, with the exception of various Arab states, Iran, North Korea and China.
It's the place where foreign student are beaten to death, where neo-nazi gangs try to scare the czechen and tatar communities with the gvt's blessing. It's the place where all important medias are controled by the President, and it's the country that is causing a growth of nationalism in eastern europe. And before you ask, american (and european, cause we might have a few of them aswell) evangelists who think homosexuals will burn in hell and should be executed aren't civilized either IMO.
Fact is, there no 10% of Russians in France, and the Russian governement doesn't try to push France to incarcerate homosexuals.


Aside from, you know, regime change, what meddling is being done?

Let's face it, the west has been supporting corrupted and dictatorial regimes in the whole Middle East and northern Africa. It has been working that way since westerners understood they would need more and more oil. By funding governement that were basically Europe and US' puppets, we achieved to get a cheap source of oil.

It's not because you suddenly decided to turn against your former friend Saddam that the muslim world will forget the way we imposed them totaly screwed up leaders.

[Paul Peru]

I'm against gay parades, as I agree that it is a celebration of, if not sin, an act that is disgusting, to me at least.
I just had to say: :dizzy2:
I wouldn't normally want to actually watch a gay parade, and it might annoy me if it blocked my way, but being a :furious3: liberal I don't see how their acts hurt me in any way. Does it really take away your sleep to know that somewhere on the planet gays are celebrating their gayness?

A very good thing about Norway is the lack of military parades. I'm against military parades, because they are a celebration of acts that are very wrong and disgusting.:skull:

[rory_20_uk]

Muslim s think that gays are going to cause the species to become extinct... Hmm... :inquisitive:

The fact gays were around many years before Islam and are still present, that the world's population is going UP, not down doesn't in any way make it seem a rethink is in order???

In terms of parades I'd like not to occur, Gay parades are on the list (go to Mardi Gras if you want to dress up like that - I'll be looking at the hot women causing the libido do go into overdrive). Probably top are the stupid parades in Northern Ireland which appear there to provoke each other. Military parades again are on the list, although British ones are not as they are more comic than anything else.

Civilisation and toleration don't necessarily go together unless you feel that one has to be tolerant to be civilised. The Greeks had slaves, treated women as second class citizens, yet were civilised, for example.

We did impose some pretty bad leaders in the Middle East. BUT they were chosen from the options available, and let's not forget the home grown nutters in Syria, Lybia and Iran. Middle East doesn't need up to choose intolerant psychopaths, they've got so many it seems that they float to the top either way.

~:smoking:

[Meneldil]

Civilisation and toleration don't necessarily go together unless you feel that one has to be tolerant to be civilised. The Greeks had slaves, treated women as second class citizens, yet were civilised, for example.

Yeah, that was more than 2.000 years ago. Currently most muslim countries don't have reached this level (men are barely citizens, women are treated as 2nd or 3rd class citizens, and some countries still allow slavery).
The notion of civilization isn't written in the stone. What appeared to be civilized thousand years ago might sound pretty backward in the 21th century, and currently, Russia doesn't fit with my (pretty subjectives)standards for civilization.
Don't get me wrong. A lot of people in western europe don't like gays, muslims, asians, foreigners, etc. But they usually don't run around asking for one's head, insulting or beating/burning people to death. And if they do (which happens rarely), they are sued and eventually condamned.



We did impose some pretty bad leaders in the Middle East. BUT they were chosen from the options available, and let's not forget the home grown nutters in Syria, Lybia and Iran. Middle East doesn't need up to choose intolerant psychopaths, they've got so many it seems that they float to the top either way.


No, we chose powermonger people, who had little interest about what was happening in their countries as long as they received money from the West, and whose sole aim was to stay in power as long as possible.

There was a lot of moderate people that would probably have been much better choice, but who would have bothered about their country's sovereinty and resources, who would have refused to do whatever France/UK/US asked them to do.
Things got even worse when muslims, annoyed by their crappy leaders decided that fundamentalist Islam would be the best way to get rid of them (Iran anyone ?)

[Navaros]

Cancelling a "gay pride" parade is always a step in the right direction. Good job, Russia. Finally one nation starts making some progress on this issue for a change instead of the mass regression that has been plaguing the world of late.

[Fragony]

Can't say I am fond of things like a gay parade, but the arrogance and self-rightiousness of muslims is starting to make me foam even more then I usually do.

[Red Peasant]

Lol. The bile directed at 'gay' people never ceases to amaze me. Have some people got deeply buried sexual issues? Is there a smidgeon of religious bigotry? Are they just plain nasty? Or a combination of all three? Who knows!
And the connection of Russia and progress in the same sentence is worth a chuckle. ~:)

I do think it encouraging, however, that religious bigots of all creeds can get along so famously on certain subjects. Now, if we could only get them all to kill each other and leave the rest of us in peace. That would be progress. :2thumbsup:

[Fragony]

Lol. The bile directed at 'gay' people never ceases to amaze me. Have some people got deeply buried sexual issues? Is there a smidgeon of religious bigotry? Are they just plain nasty? Or a combination of all three? Who knows!

Be gay if you want but don't bother me with it. Why do they have to enforce themselve the way they do? Blabla acceptence, we are quite normal, that is why we walk with a pink string, to make you realise we are quite sane and just like the lot of you. If being gay is so normal, why emphasise being it that way. Good friend of mine is gay, he acts like a normal person, not a she-male. These guys disgust him a lot more then me.

[Red Peasant]

Nobody's ever forced it on me mate!!! You should stand up for yourself ~;)

Gays just don't bother me, and I'm not bothered what they get up to or if they want to 'celebrate' it. Yet it seems to really needle some people, generally the types who are bitter with life and who would be fighting and bitching over something else if it wasn't this. To me sexuality is a trivial matter, not worth all this hatred.
I once told a guy at a place that I used to work that an ex-girlfriend of mine (a real honey) liked to be ass-f'd. It was just another hole to me, but whatever turned her on was ok by me. Yet, he seriously concluded that I must be gay! Thick bastard.

[Fragony]

Oh she liked that, poor guy you are :2thumbsup:

It's not that I have something against gays, but that girly behaviour makes me a bit sick, I just don't like watching them. A gay parade is provocation, if acceptance is a good thing just wait for it to happen. And it probably happens a lot faster if you don't behave like a [cannot make moderator sad]

[Duke Malcolm]

I think the authorities should let the march go ahead. I'm not in favour of Gay Pride marches or Muslim protests against things as we have seen recently. Let them fight each other and arrest whoever is still alive afterwards...

[Red Peasant]

TBH, I've never watched, nor wanted to watch, a live gay parade, but I doubt if it would provoke me if I did. Why should it? Well, not unless they have gangs of gays demanding that heteros be beheaded like those Islamic religious nutters were demanding of Europeans/Westerners/infidels/whatever in London recently, or if they run around grabbing all the straight guys' goolies (but I seriously doubt that they do that). That would provoke me. As do Nazis. In my younger days we had loads of scraps with the fascist scum in Liverpool, but they preach pure hatred and that's something that really annoys me. But maybe I was being unfair to them. *considers matter for a few seconds* NAHHHH!

[Fragony]

It doesn't really matter what would provoke you, what matters is that the purpose of gay parades is provocation.

[Red Peasant]

Well, if they are taking to the streets merely to provoke the general populace then that is wrong, and I would have to take your word for it, but I just don't see how that benefits them. Provocation, in my experience, is usually counter-productive.

[Adrian II]

This thread demonstrates once more that the fight to introduce or preserve human and civic rights cuts across territorial, religious and even political borders. Gay parades are a celebration just like, say, Catholic processions or Carnival or military parades. It's a once-a-year party for a segment of the population. You don't like it, you don't show up. Parades shouldn't be restricted unless people want to parade twice a week in the center of town or something. And of course they should be outright forbidden if they are bound to provoke people in volatile situations (Iraq or Northern Ireland come to mind).

[Fragony]

Well this was to be expected now that Russia, England, Norway and USA sided against freedom of speech. Offer (obligitory radical) muslims a finger and they will take the hand, I hope our dear allies will learn something from it but I doubt it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I do think it encouraging, however, that religious bigots of all creeds can get along so famously on certain subjects. Now, if we could only get them all to kill each other and leave the rest of us in peace. That would be progress. :2thumbsup:Indeed.

More Evil Foreign Religious Leaders impose their law on Russia:

Moscow's chief rabbi - who holds US citizenship - joins Orthodox and Muslim leaders in denouncing gays, warns that Jewish community will not stand by silently.
Clicky. (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/02/16/rabbytoo.shtml)

[Reenk Roink]

Oh no! :speechless:

It has come to a clash between religious and atheist peeples. :no:

What will us non-religious but also non-militantly atheist people do...? :shrug:

[Adrian II]

What will us non-religious but also non-militantly atheist people do...? :shrug:Make better cartoons (https://img438.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rowsonmohammed16wi.jpg). Oh, and better products (https://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=legoislam4sk.gif) of course.

[Reenk Roink]

Make better cartoons (https://img438.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rowsonmohammed16wi.jpg). Oh, and better products (https://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=legoislam4sk.gif) of course.

How tasteful...

But then again what did I expect from you? :rolleyes2:

[Fragony]

How tasteful...

But then again what did I expect from you? :rolleyes2:

oh common!

https://img438.imageshack.us/img438/3282/rowsonmohammed16wi.jpg

Hilarious :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Reenk Roink]

oh common!

https://img438.imageshack.us/img438/3282/rowsonmohammed16wi.jpg

Hilarious :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


Is that it? I really expected much more from you...:tongue2:

[Fragony]

Is that it? I really expected much more from you...:tongue2:

What can I say, I really don't want impress people, it just happens :embarassed:

[Reenk Roink]

What can I say, I really don't want impress people, it just happens :embarassed:

Oh, it's not about impressing me...:juggle2:...but I digress.

[Adrian II]

oh common!

https://img438.imageshack.us/img438/3282/rowsonmohammed16wi.jpg

Hilarious :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:This one was by Rowson in The Guardian, a week ago.

[Fragony]

This one was by Rowson in The Guardian, a week ago.

I LOVE it, you read NRC by any chance? There was an awesome margritte parody in there; c'est ne pas Mohammed :laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6965/ceci9cp.jpg

This is brilliant! Thanks Fragony. (I take it you're referring to this one I found)

[Fragony]

nvm, wrong one, bleh can't find original :(

[Divinus Arma]

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6965/ceci9cp.jpg

This is brilliant! Thanks Fragony. (I take it you're referring to this one I found)

What is the english translation?

[Meneldil]

"This is not a caricature of Muhamad". A reference to René Magritte "Ceci n'est pas une pipe".

[Louis VI the Fat]

A consummate technician, his work frequently displays a juxtaposition of ordinary objects, or an unusual context, giving new meanings to familiar things. The representational use of objects as other than what they seem is typified in his painting, The Treachery Of Images (La trahison des images), which shows a pipe that looks as though it is a model for a tobacco store advertisement. Magritte painted below the pipe, This is not a pipe (Ceci n'est pas une pipe), which seems a contradiction, but is actually true: the painting is not a pipe, it is an image of a pipe. (In his book, This Is Not a Pipe, French critic Michel Foucault discusses the painting and its paradox. )
https://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1776/300pxmagrittepipe6pg.jpg

[Adrian II]

nvm, wrong one, bleh can't find original :(I posted that one a week ago (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1064049&postcount=47).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I hate to point this out but the homosexual act is a sin in the Torah, Bible and Koran. It's not something you can get away from. Homosexuality didn't exist back then so its not a sin. If you can't deal with that then you shouldn't be a member of any of the religions. its in scripture so it can't be changed by dogma.

I personnally don't like the fact that homosexuals demand acceptance. Tolleration is fine, even acceptance but you can't expect hetrosexuals to like what homosexuals do and vice versa. Otherwise everybody would do everything, and they don't.

[Red Peasant]

Gosh! If it's a sin then it must be wrong. Oh dear, I didn't think of that. God forgive me for tolerating sinners. And I sodomized an ex-girlfriend (errr....2 ex-girlfriends! At their behest, I must add!!!). I will go to hell! Oh well, c'est la vie! Or c'est le mort, or whatever it is called in Francais. :oops:

Who gives a damn, apart from religionistas.

:idea2: I could become a monk, or go on a crusade and kill infidels in hot oil, or kiss the pope's/mohammed's/moses' ass. Maybe that'll save me. Give me a break will ya. :wall:

[rory_20_uk]

Homosexuality didn't exist back when?

The Greeks were known to do it. The Empire of Darius practiced it. So on that alone were are what? 300BC or earlier.

Yes, religion is dogmatic. That's not a good thing as far as I am concerned.

I do agree that I find the thought of anal intercourse distasteful - God in his wisdom equipped women with more pleasant options - but a friend of mine states that don't knock it until you try it...

But I accept what homosexuals do. I'd expect no more details of their love life than I share of my own.

~:smoking:

[Dead Moroz]

Why nobody complained when Poland forbad their gay parade?

Nobody really oppress gays in Russia, at least openly. This case is just exclusion. I'm not gay, nor gay hater. But I can understand the decision of Moscow government, because there is really too much of gay "propaganda" now in Russian mass media and life. Believe me, I'm very tolerated to gays, but even I think that it's too much. I even suspect that Dutch TV is less gayish than Russian TV is now.

Btw, that "43% of Russians who thinks that gays must be incarcerated" is just lie. Though I suppose that some people think this way, but I'm sure it's not that much. There are always homophobiacs in every country. Words of religious leaders are just their own opinions. But what else could you expect from people who thinks that sodomy is big sin? If religious fanatics will really make any violence acts upon gays, then they (fans) will be punished according to Russian criminal code. The fact that our court is corrupted doesn't means that everybody can do what they wish to... Well, you can if you are President.

P.S. Nice title for the thread!

[Reenk Roink]

Gosh! If it's a sin then it must be wrong. Oh dear, I didn't think of that. God forgive me for tolerating sinners. And I sodomized an ex-girlfriend (errr....2 ex-girlfriends! At their behest, I must add!!!). I will go to hell! Oh well, c'est la vie! Or c'est le mort, or whatever it is called in Francais. :oops:

Who gives a damn, apart from religionistas.

:idea2: I could become a monk, or go on a crusade and kill infidels in hot oil, or kiss the pope's/mohammed's/moses' ass. Maybe that'll save me. Give me a break will ya. :wall:

Errm...you back-doored your gf's??? :inquisitive:

Aside from you obvious intolerance for religion, you got an anal fixation mate...:moustache:

[Big_John]

Errm...you back-doored your gf's??? :inquisitive:

Aside from you obvious intolerance for religion, you got an anal fixation mate...:moustache:can't speak for the peasant.. but just fyi, sodomy isn't necessarily anal sex.

[Lemur]

You're all keeping this thread alive just to spite me, aren't you? Oh well. It will be fitting if this becomes a sodomy vs. buggering debate.

[Red Peasant]

Errm...you back-doored your gf's??? :inquisitive:

Aside from you obvious intolerance for religion, you got an anal fixation mate...:moustache:


I'm 42 mate, I've had lots of gfs and only two of them 'asked' for this. I can take it or leave it. My preference is to go in the front door, so to speak. :laugh4: Much more comfortable ... most of the time. ~;)

[Meneldil]

Why nobody complained when Poland forbad their gay parade?


Good point here. It seems to me that Poland is openly anti-everything-that's-not-christian'. The election of the populist and religious extreme right is a good step toward backwardness. Oddly, no one in the EU complained about it (while we kicked out the austrian extreme right leader a few years ago).

We should kick them out of the EU anyway. On the one hand, we have countries like greece that are doing their best to turn into modern secularized countries despite a strong religious tradition, and on the other hand, we have Poland where a good part of the medias are owned by an intolerant Church that thinks the Pope is too much liberal.

[Fragony]

Errm...you back-doored your gf's??? :inquisitive:



What is wrong with that? Is great they go completily nuts :2thumbsup:

[Ser Clegane]

*cough* :focus: *cough*

(I am sure that somewhere there is a discussion forum where you guys can discuss your sexual exploits in all the detail you want)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Homosexuality didn't exist back when?

The Greeks were known to do it. The Empire of Darius practiced it. So on that alone were are what? 300BC or earlier.

Yes, religion is dogmatic. That's not a good thing as far as I am concerned.

The Greeks did anything. Homosexuality was invented in the 1700s, before that it was just sex with men, which isn't the same thing because it doesn't exclude women. Being "Gay" means you only like people of the same sex and that is a really modern concept.

No, religion isn't dogmatic it just is. If god is infinately wise and he says sodamy is wrong in 4000BC then he's still right in 2000AD. Thats the point, its not a difficult concept. God is always right.

Oh, I should mention that you don't need to agree, I'm just explaining.

Meneldil, I hate to point this out but religion isn't meant to progress. Becoming more secular can be turned around and be seen as turning away from faith. I knew a girl who turned away from Christianity after her mother remarried and heavan and hell aside the whole thing really screwed her up.

Red Peasant, you hate relgion, okay, we get it. As to your "exploits" personally its not something I'd do, okay, but whatever turns you on.

My point was that religion can never accept homosexuality because its a sin, as per the religious texts, not the dogma set up by the branches of the faith. For instance confession is dogma and so is purgatory. So is the Primacy of the Pope, actually. What religious people can do is tollerate, Christians tollerate everyone, but its not the same as acceptance.

[Strike For The South]

I belive the same thing would happen here if some of the zealots got wind of it. However I also belive muslims as a group need to realize violence is not the answer for everything you cant go around theartning beheadings over a homo parade or acouple of poorly drawn cartoons. If they are going to live in the west they need to accept the culture which does not mean they should give up there own but violence only goes so far.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The problem, I believe, is that there are a lot of noisy intolerant Muslims in Europe especially who can't just ignore the "sinners" outside their religion. They have no tollerance. Not only do they believe they are right, they think that if you don't agree you should die.

Which seems like weasted effort really because if they are right we all go to hell!

Its not all Muslims, its just that the moderate and progressive ones don't speak out against the radicals.

[Leet Eriksson]

The problem, I believe, is that there are a lot of noisy intolerant Muslims in Europe especially who can't just ignore the "sinners" outside their religion. They have no tollerance. Not only do they believe they are right, they think that if you don't agree you should die.

Which seems like weasted effort really because if they are right we all go to hell!

Its not all Muslims, its just that the moderate and progressive ones don't speak out against the radicals.

Good point, you know yesterday i sat with a bunch of moderates in a traditional restuarant, they keep stuff to themselves mostly.

Or maybe they are too lazy, which is the case with most muslim moderates.

[BDC]

The Polish have wonderful vodka. If it's easier to get it to us from them, all the better. Hence they stay in the EU.

[Fragony]

Its not all Muslims, its just that the moderate and progressive ones don't speak out against the radicals.

As long as muslims don't clear their own streets I'll use the broadest brush available. It doesn't matter how small the group of radicals is, what matters is how big the group is that does allows them to do their thing. I don't believe in moderate muslims, how can a violent religion like islam be moderate?

[Dâriûsh]

As long as muslims don't clear their own streets I'll use the broadest brush available. It doesn't matter how small the group of radicals is, what matters is how big the group is that does allows them to do their thing. I don't believe in moderate muslims, how can a violent religion like islam be moderate? True. In fact every Thursday evening I split an infidel Dutchman in half with my garlic-soaked scimitar. Allahu Akbar! :charge:

[LeftEyeNine]

Dariush, you always will see better posts to reply -at least something dropped near the trash can. Why lose time while one does not even intend to get you? Let him stand with his own BS, I have times and times tried to express about the matter, even patrons I could not guess showed flexibility and understanding. We'll always need cartoonists you know -so that we can crash and burn ~;)

[Slyspy]

I love the fact that there are so many posts still criticising Muslims on this subject when the original post has already been withdrawn as inaccurate.

[Dead Moroz]

https://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4274/thinkdifferent0dk.jpg

[Big_John]

https://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4274/thinkdifferent0dk.jpgone of the greatest things i've even seen.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Good point here. It seems to me that Poland is openly anti-everything-that's-not-christian'. The election of the populist and religious extreme right is a good step toward backwardness. Oddly, no one in the EU complained about it (while we kicked out the austrian extreme right leader a few years ago).

We should kick them out of the EU anyway. On the one hand, we have countries like greece that are doing their best to turn into modern secularized countries despite a strong religious tradition, and on the other hand, we have Poland where a good part of the medias are owned by an intolerant Church that thinks the Pope is too much liberal.
And that's why we love Poland.

[monkian]

How many Polaks does it take to eat a burrito ?

Two

(thanks to the president of costa rica for that one)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

True. In fact every Thursday evening I split an infidel Dutchman in half with my garlic-soaked scimitar. Allahu Akbar! :charge:

I like you a lot, I think.

Fragony, Islam is not a violant religion any more than Christianity. Remember the Crusades? After the fall of Jerusalem the blood ran so thick the knight's horses were up to their knees in it. By contrast when Saladin retook the city all he did was clean the Mosques.

What really botheres me is the number of "moderate" Muslims on TV who condem 9/11 and 7/7 and then say "but you had it coming." It would be really nice for them to say, "Bin Laden does not represent us and we fully support you in bringing him to trial for the atrocities he commited."

[rory_20_uk]

blood ran so thick the knight's horses were up to their knees in it

Hmm. Assuming that the average street is greater than 3 foot, and assuming drainage and alleys, the volume of blood required would be massive, even allowing for clotting - but unless the horses stayed still whilst the blood built up over their legs.

And is the ground cobbled or is there significant areas of free dirt? That'll absorb much of the volume.

One person does have about 6 litres of blood inside them, but even so I feel that full drainage would be unlikely once the pressure inside the corpse decreases.

Well, m'lord, I'm afraid the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny...

Oh, and who documented the blood? I'm only asking, as IF it was both documented by the Muslims, they'd not point out details such as any slaughters that have taken place; Jews would be far more likely to be impartial...

God, I've got too much free time... :dizzy2:

~:smoking:

[Reenk Roink]

Hmm. Assuming that the average street is greater than 3 foot, and assuming drainage and alleys, the volume of blood required would be massive, even allowing for clotting - but unless the horses stayed still whilst the blood built up over their legs.

And is the ground cobbled or is there significant areas of free dirt? That'll absorb much of the volume.

One person does have about 6 litres of blood inside them, but even so I feel that full drainage would be unlikely once the pressure inside the corpse decreases.

Well, m'lord, I'm afraid the evidence does not stand up to scrutiny...

Oh, and who documented the blood? I'm only asking, as IF it was both documented by the Muslims, they'd not point out details such as any slaughters that have taken place; Jews would be far more likely to be impartial...

God, I've got too much free time... :dizzy2:

~:smoking:

This post says it all...

[Louis VI the Fat]

This post says it all...Says what? That he has got too much free time? :balloon2:



*prays orgahs will by now have developed a taste for Louis' whimsical sense of humour*

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Rory, AFAIK all the Muslims were dead. The fall of Jerusalem was accompanied by much joyous slaying of the infidels. Whether the statement is litterally true is less important that the fact that the streets ran with blood.

[Papewaio]

One person does have about 6 litres of blood inside them, but even so I feel that full drainage would be unlikely once the pressure inside the corpse decreases.

~:smoking:



Puddles.

All it would take is a couple of slopes and irregular road and then you get a nice muddy bloody puddle for all the crusaders to walk through... It would be a bit extreme to expect the entire road to be knee deep in blood...

~:smoking:

[Louis VI the Fat]

You're all keeping this thread alive just to spite me, aren't you?
http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/looney0061.gif

[Fragony]

Fragony, Islam is not a violant religion any more than Christianity. Remember the Crusades? After the fall of Jerusalem the blood ran so thick the knight's horses were up to their knees in it. By contrast when Saladin retook the city all he did was clean the Mosques.

Crusades, can't say I remember them. May have to do with the fact that I wasn't born at that time. It could be that it are just a few billion that ruin it for Dariush but from what I can tell I wouldn't exactly classify Islam as being very peaceful. If it is, why aren't they burning portraits of Bin Laden with equal vigour.

[rory_20_uk]

As has been said repeatedly, Christianity has moved on, whilst Islam appears to be in a rut at approximately the time of the Crusades.

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

As has been said repeatedly, Christianity has moved on, whilst Islam appears to be in a rut at approximately the time of the Crusades.

~:smoking:I think Christianity has been made to move on under pressure of economic and social change, the development of science and the rise of political democracy. The resistance to change from Christian institutions was continuous and enormous and the process was fraught with reversals. In Europe the break-up of the religious monolith started with the advent of the conciliar movement and protestantism, which were essentially social movements resulting in lots of bloody (civil) wars and occasional relapses into theocracy (Calvin). In predominantly Catholic France it took several revolutions and the convulsions of the Dreyfus affair to break the hold of Catholic institutions over society. Outside forces provided the momentum, changes within Christianity were the consequences of their impact. Such is the nature of all dogma.

[Bohdan, Lord of Courland]

Good point here. It seems to me that Poland is openly anti-everything-that's-not-christian'. The election of the populist and religious extreme right is a good step toward backwardness. Oddly, no one in the EU complained about it (while we kicked out the austrian extreme right leader a few years ago).

We should kick them out of the EU anyway. On the one hand, we have countries like greece that are doing their best to turn into modern secularized countries despite a strong religious tradition, and on the other hand, we have Poland where a good part of the medias are owned by an intolerant Church that thinks the Pope is too much liberal.


Is that what most Western Europeans really think of the situation in Poland? hmmm... :juggle2:
Although I do agree that a large part of the ruling party are intolerant when it comes to issues like gay parades (not religios matters, but its mainly to do with the "old and isolated" generation), I would not accuse them of having "religious extreme right" ideas. They merrely try to use the Church as a grounds for influencing the election results. Even though, unfortunately, the Catholic church does play an imporant role in politics by influencing voters, I would definetly not accuse the general populace of being extremely "unseculirised" and "intolerant". And the remark on "a good part of the media" being "owned by the intolerant Church" is blatantly false.
Such media do exist (most notable is the "Radio Maria" and the TV station "Trwam"; both owned by the same anti-semite and power hungry priest<<< the one who was in the Solidarity movement together with Walesa! :help: ), but it would be simply unfair to label the entire country and populace under the same tag on the basis of evaluating the extremist minorities that exist in it.

And the point on kicking Poland out of the EU: could you justify this please? Or are are you another one of those "Pole-phobic" Europeans who are frightened by the prospect of the western labour market being "flooded by hordes of qualified Polish immigrats/workers"? :skull:

[Papewaio]

It is interesting to note what happened before these changes... weather patterns and plague... society had lost a lot of people and the Church didn't have the answers... combine that with increasing reasoning ability (education, books)... and local rulers wishing to gain power who supported these changes.

It might be the ultimate irony that having such a powerful single ruler of the Church was the very reason that lead the Kings to find ways to slide out from under their power. By not having a single authority figure in Islam the rulers can just pick and choose which blend that suits their rulership... no need for systemic change to the system as the system already can be changed to suit.

So maybe it was the inadaptability of the Church in the face of a changing world that enabled the societies to step up the social movements. While with Islam there is a larger selection of variants meaning that it is more adapatable as a whole... but also meaning that progress is slowed down.