Roman military reforms

[Divie]

Just wondering when I might expect to be able to move to the next tiers of roman reforms i.e early republican/late/early Imperial etc, is it date related or does it rely on certain prerequisites like the marian reforms in vanilla?

[econ21]

There are two reforms in EB: Polybian, when you switch from early hastati etc to hastati proper; and Marian, like in vanilla. They are currently date determined - IIRC 209 and 107 BC or thereabouts. I think they just happen at that time, unlike in vanilla when there is a chance they will happen at that time or every year thereafter.

[Ludens]

There are also an Imperial reform, but as yet there is no trigger for it, so early Imperial units are only available in custom battles.

[Moros]

There are two reforms in EB: Polybian, when you switch from early hastati etc to hastati proper; and Marian, like in vanilla. They are currently date determined - IIRC 209 and 107 BC or thereabouts. I think they just happen at that time, unlike in vanilla when there is a chance they will happen at that time or every year thereafter.
that wil change tough. I don't know on wich they will be based but I'm quite sure they will.

[BigTex]

One bug with the Marius reforms. The units are unavailable outside of Italy, and not in Rome. And wow are those units great, the antesignani are gods.

[Moros]

One bug with the Marius reforms. The units are unavailable outside of Italy, and not in Rome. And wow are those units great, the antesignani are gods.
Yeah we know. But the bug is already fixed. So we'll only have to wait on the patch. Wich shouldn't take to long anymore.

[Divie]

On the subject of romans how come I cant train any roman units outside any of my original cities, in fact most of the cities have no troop option in the slightest, what am i missing?

[BigTex]

Your not missing anything, its a bug. If you go into the export buildings folder and look at the roman units all of them require a type 1 government. Delete that requirement and they should be available to you elsewhere, worked with the marius units.

[Divie]

ok cool thx is there a fix or bug report that shows how to do this, almost had an epileptic fit scrolling through the file :(

[Trithemius]

Your not missing anything, its a bug. If you go into the export buildings folder and look at the roman units all of them require a type 1 government. Delete that requirement and they should be available to you elsewhere, worked with the marius units.

What is the intent of the restrictions? I assume we are supposed to be able to recruit post-Marian units in the homelands (type I govt) and provinces (type II govt), but not in the others?

*wonders if there is an FAQ somewhere that he can read and learn about this stuff*

[khelvan]

The intention is to show that the early Romans drew their troops from the home areas only, and to give the later Roman player a choice - some government types will alter the province to be more Roman-like, allowing the training of legions, others auxilia, others local allies.

One of these days I'll write up a long discussion about the governments and what we are attempting to show with their implementation.

It is NOT a bug that the Romans can't build outside of their home areas, though recruitment of foreign troops is something we had not implemented at all for the Romans in the past build.

Making the Camillan Romans available outside of the home areas is not something we recommend for accuracy reasons.

[We all need someone]

Khelvan is so sexy.

And mofos who moderate, thanks a lot for screwing up my wonderful screename. I quote a fantastic song from one of the greatest albums from one of the most eclectic bands ever, and I'm punished. Alright, so it was overtly filthy, but hey, everyone on this forum has already been violated by rendered Gaesatae wangs. What was a cheesy sexual reference going to do? Other than show my immature sense of humor.

And yes, Khelvan, even if it was you, you are still sexy.

[Trithemius]

The intention is to show that the early Romans drew their troops from the home areas only, and to give the later Roman player a choice - some government types will alter the province to be more Roman-like, allowing the training of legions, others auxilia, others local allies.

One of these days I'll write up a long discussion about the governments and what we are attempting to show with their implementation.

It is NOT a bug that the Romans can't build outside of their home areas, though recruitment of foreign troops is something we had not implemented at all for the Romans in the past build.

Making the Camillan Romans available outside of the home areas is not something we recommend for accuracy reasons.

I look forward to that discussion! The government system is one of the most interesting things about EB I think.

I would ask what you mean by "home" though? Does "home" mean type I government controlled areas, or does it mean type I and II? Or does the definition change based on the reform phase (with Legion recruitment being expanded as the reforms proceed)?

P.S. Sorry if I am asking for easy answers to painstakingly crafted scripts. ;)

[Trithemius]

Khelvan is so sexy.

And mofos who moderate, thanks a lot for screwing up my wonderful screename. I quote a fantastic song from one of the greatest albums from one of the most eclectic bands ever, and I'm punished. Alright, so it was overtly filthy, but hey, everyone on this forum has already been violated by rendered Gaesatae wangs. What was a cheesy sexual reference going to do? Other than show my immature sense of humor.

And yes, Khelvan, even if it was you, you are still sexy.

*raises hand*

Point of Order: Relevance?

[QwertyMIDX]

I look forward to that discussion! The government system is one of the most interesting things about EB I think.

I would ask what you mean by "home" though? Does "home" mean type I government controlled areas, or does it mean type I and II? Or does the definition change based on the reform phase (with Legion recruitment being expanded as the reforms proceed)?

P.S. Sorry if I am asking for easy answers to painstakingly crafted scripts. ;)

In this case "homelands" is a short hand for where romans recruited legions before the Marian Reforms. Basically the central Italian peninsula.

[BigTex]

Didn't mean any direspect to the Eb crew. I had just gotten round to allowing marius units outside Italy in my game so I thought the info might be of use. Werent leve's taken from cities conquered outside of Italy?

[We all need someone]

Plenty of relevance. Khelvan obviously watches over us all in all these topics, so everyone should know of his uttermost sexiness.

And Rebel against the Smilies!

[Trithemius]

In this case "homelands" is a short hand for where romans recruited legions before the Marian Reforms. Basically the central Italian peninsula.

Ah, thanks for that.

Am I correct in assuming that the intent is for Camillan and Polybian legions to be recruited from type I government areas, for Marian legions to be recruited from type I and II government areas, and for Imperial legions to be recruited from type I, II, and III government areas? Or something in this mould?

I'm trying to work out what's a deliberate feature and what's an undocumented feature. :)

[Reverend Joe]

And Rebel against the Smilies!
:brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood: :brood:

You anger them...

[QwertyMIDX]

Ah, thanks for that.

Am I correct in assuming that the intent is for Camillan and Polybian legions to be recruited from type I government areas, for Marian legions to be recruited from type I and II government areas, and for Imperial legions to be recruited from type I, II, and III government areas? Or something in this mould?

I'm trying to work out what's a deliberate feature and what's an undocumented feature. :)


Naw, that's not quite it. Camillan and Polybian are recruited in a slightly smaller area than type 1's (although we'll see what happens with that, Roman colonization of southern italy is a debate right now). Marian and Imperial are both type II AFAIK, I don't think you get much in type III in the way of legions proper, romanized auxilia is the order of the day out there I think.

[Trithemius]

Naw, that's not quite it. Camillan and Polybian are recruited in a slightly smaller area than type 1's (although we'll see what happens with that, Roman colonization of southern italy is a debate right now). Marian and Imperial are both type II AFAIK, I don't think you get much in type III in the way of legions proper, romanized auxilia is the order of the day out there I think.

Thanks!

I look forward to the Spreadsheet of All-Knowing alluded to by Khelvan in his stickied government post. :)

[khelvan]

I should note that we are currently debating the dynamic triggers that will lead to the three Roman reforms. Camillan to Polybian, Polybian to Marian, Marian to Imperial. And the eventual fourth, Imperial to Augustan.

Some factors being tossed about are: Exposure to the fighting styles of certain cultures, large defeats and/or conquering large areas, and other factors.

We're hoping to reflect, somewhat, the driving forces behind these real reforms, though of course they did not happen overnight in history. We are welcome to new ideas on how to do this within the limitations of the game engine.

[Trithemius]

I should note that we are currently debating the dynamic triggers that will lead to the three Roman reforms. Camillan to Polybian, Polybian to Marian, Marian to Imperial. And the eventual fourth, Imperial to Augustan

Some factors being tossed about are: Exposure to the fighting styles of certain cultures, large defeats and/or conquering large areas, and other factors.

I was thinking about this myself. While not scholarly works, I often use wargaming references for "casual reference" purposes so I had a look at the D.B.M. List Book#2; they are not especially detailed by any stretch but the tend to be rigorously savaged by hordes of pedants... er historical wargamers... on a regular basis.

Their (relevant) sections are:
Camillan Roman, 400 BC - 275 BC
Polybian Roman, 275 BC - 105 BC
Marian Roman, 105 BC - 25 BC
Early Imperial (presumably Augustan) Roman, 25 BC - 197 AD

Their lists suggest the war against Pyrrhos as the catalyst for the Camillan->Polybian shift - on the basis that a revision was required for dealing with the sorts of forces deployed by the Epeirotes; while Marius and Augustus were reponsible for initiating the major changes for the periods that are associated with them.


We're hoping to reflect, somewhat, the driving forces behind these real reforms, though of course they did not happen overnight in history. We are welcome to new ideas on how to do this within the limitations of the game engine.

I was actually wondering for a while "Should I let myself lose to the Epeirotes?" in order to spark a change in military pattern. ;)

I suppose the downside of having defeat as a trigger is that some players won't ever get the trigger which, while making some sense (if you can conquer the world with hastati, why do you need evocati?), also means that some people might not see the fancy unit models.

I think the big decision would probably be: do you use historical triggers (i.e. those things that brought about the changes in actual history); or do you base them on the flow of the game (assuming that it is an exercise in speculative history). Historical triggers might be something like facing a large Epeirote army in battle (or even losing to one), or even dates? Game triggers might include having unrest in Rome coincide with a certain number of estates or larger farm improvements being built, or the faction's territory reaching a certain extent (all of the Italian Peninsular for Camillan->Polybian; or a whole lot of provinces for Marian->Augustan)?

EDIT: Some pedant I turn out to be...

[GodEmperorLeto]

Post-Marian units should, perhaps, be recruitable in Type III areas. For example, many of Caesar's legions were recruited from amongst the Spanish regions (like his beloved X Fretensis).

[QwertyMIDX]

Spain has type 2 gov'ts for the Romans, in fact about 50% of the map can take type 2 gov'ts for the Romans.

https://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=romani6sc.gif

[pezhetairoi]

I would advocate against large defeats as a trigger for the Romani reforms, for the simple reason that they are quite rare, if not impossible, for most players blooded on RTW and EB in the past months. Exposure to other cultures or to a particular unit would be nice.

And, though this isn't very relevant, is it possible to script the appearance of large eleutheroi armies at certain set times, e.g. to duplicate the Yuezhi moving into the northeast in the future when they are eliminated as a faction, or to duplicate the Cimbri-Teutone migrations? If that were possible then you would also be able to trigger off the reforms quite easily.

[Trithemius]

I was also thinking - is there some way of allowing units to be "retrained" into their reform versions? I always found it a bit of a pain in vanilla RTW when my reform came through and I suddenly could not refit my veteran legions.

Do the script experts have any ideas about how this could be done? Or is it pipe-dream material?

[QwertyMIDX]

Just to make you feel mroe at ease, our current plans for the Polybian reforms are control of portions of Sicily and the Celtic Provinces in Northern Italy and a minimum date. The Marian ones are looking like control of distant, hostile, underdevloped provinces, establishment of slave estates in Italy, and a general with some sort of 'reformer' trait.

[Trithemius]

I was also thinking - is there some way of allowing units to be "retrained" into their reform versions? I always found it a bit of a pain in vanilla RTW when my reform came through and I suddenly could not refit my veteran legions.

Do the script experts have any ideas about how this could be done? Or is it pipe-dream material?

Pipe-dream I guess. Oh well. :)

[Avicenna]

Early Imperial (presumably Augustan) Roman, 25 BC - 197 BC


Did you mean 197 AD? If you did, then does this mean that Septimius Severus changed the military after securing his power to form the BI roman legions?

[Trithemius]

Did you mean 197 AD? If you did, then does this mean that Septimius Severus changed the military after securing his power to form the BI roman legions?

Um... yes! I guess I got used to typing BC so much that it never clicked. Septimus Severus' changes are indeed the main reason for the list switching to Middle Imperial Roman.

I believe that the BI Roman forces are probably more likely to be Late Imperial Roman since this list would cover 307 AD - 425 AD.

[Ypoknons]

BI's legions are definately post-Diocletian legions. Severus may have changed the legions to an extent and moral, training and quality could have declined after Marcus Aurelius, but actual reorganization on that scale didn't happen until Diocletian.

[alexrain]

Hmm...
If Im not wrong Septimius didn't changed the legions itself, he only reorganized the dislocatioon. What he did was a significant increasement in the salaries.... The legions in BI are definitly Diocletian style and also reflect the center army corps formed under Constantinius if im not wrong.

[Trithemius]

Hmm...
If Im not wrong Septimius didn't changed the legions itself, he only reorganized the dislocatioon. What he did was a significant increasement in the salaries.... The legions in BI are definitly Diocletian style and also reflect the center army corps formed under Constantinius if im not wrong.

Certainly this is the case, the use of the term comitatensis in RTW:BI makes this clear; as well as RTW:BI's start date being sometime in the latter part of the 4th century AD. In DBM terms, the Roman armies of RTW:BI are Late Roman Imperial, verging on Patrician Roman - which is way out of EB's historical range.

Septimus Severus did mess around with things, but it seems like his fiddling was primarily politically motivated, rather than geared towards making the army a more efficient tool (although I suppose this may have been a beneficial side effect. It maye have been that the changes in Roman military techniques at the time were due to factors other than deliberate reform by a specific individual - if this is the case then Septimus Severus seems a reasonable figure to "pin" the date of the changes on.

I believe that the reason that it is Constantine I that marks the break between Middle and Late Roman because Constantine is said to have completed the implementation of Diocletian's reforms on a wide scale.

[Megalos]

Looked through the thread and didn't see any mention of the triggers (be it temporary or permanent) being intergrated in the new patch.

Are they in yet? (don't want to be the Romans til they are)

[khelvan]

We may have an optional test script for a separate download, but this patch will only be bug fixes.

[Geoffrey S]

I like the idea of reforms being linked to expansion: it illustrates the need for better logistics and a more standardised practise when further from Rome.

But could it be argued that Imperial/Augustan legionaries are likely never to be seen by most players in the campaign game and that their unit slots could be better used for other troop types for other factions? Unless those units are aimed more at custom battles, of course, or if reforms after the Polybian one no longer depend on a minimum date. It just strikes me as a waste of slots if the availability of such Imperial units lies outside the timeframe within which many players will complete the campaign.

[cunctator]

Don't worry the final marian and augustan reforms will happen when the EB roman empire is approx. in the some condition as the real romans when their army begun to change. Probably they will still have a minimum year requirement, since the units also represent some technical progress, but things can still be vastly accelerated compared to real history.

[Geoffrey S]

Okay, sounds perfect.