Golden Dome no More

[Papewaio]

SAMARRA: A dawn bomb attack wrecked a famous Shiite Muslim shrine in Samarra, 100 kilometres north of Baghdad, sparking street protests and forcing a government appeal to avert sectarian reprisals.

Gunmen yesterday burst into the Golden Mosque, one of the holiest Shiite sites in Iraq, and planted explosives that destroyed its 100-year-old, gold-covered dome, one of the biggest and best known in the Muslim world, officials said. An Interior Ministry spokesman said the attackers wore police uniforms, tied up the guards and set the charges.

Great :dizzy2: damn idiots, internal struggles are always worse then external ones.

[Proletariat]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/meast/02/22/iraq.main/story.samarra.ap.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/meast/02/22/iraq.main/story.iraq.ap.jpg

Pretty sad. More actions placing objects above human life. :no:



BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Gunmen targeted 27 Baghdad mosques and killed three Sunni imams Wednesday in the wake of a bomb attack at one of the holiest Shiite sites.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/22/iraq.main/

[lancelot]

So now muslims are killing muslims...

One of the many benefits of such an enlightened, peaceful religion...

I do find it quite interesting that other religions dont seem to use bombs and violence as much as Islamists seems to....media coverage I wonder? or accurate assesment?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Accurate to a small minorety. There are such (christain) people in Chechnia.

[Husar]

I think some people down there like civil wars and the struggle for power...:juggle2:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So now muslims are killing muslims...

One of the many benefits of such an enlightened, peaceful religion...

I do find it quite interesting that other religions dont seem to use bombs and violence as much as Islamists seems to....media coverage I wonder? or accurate assesment?


Muslims have been killing muslims over matters of religion for centuries. I'm only happy that christians have -- mostly -- gotten over that habit.

As to the loss of this Mosque,

"A thing of beauty is a joy.....forever?"

[Don Corleone]

Well, here's what I don't get. I wouldn't blow up a synagogue or a buddhist temple, let alone a Greek Orthodox chuch (which I think is closer to the differences between Sunni & Shiite muslims). What a shame. Isn't there a respect for the house of Allah in Islam that would have stopped these monsters, even if u don't agree with the uys that built it?

[Samurai Waki]

It just proves whether we try to stabilize Iraq or not, theres still going to be hurt feelings, or a civil war... we can't hope to solve 1350 years of hatred and division in a matter of years.

[Devastatin Dave]

I have to wonder though whether the explosion came mainly from the attack or from the probable weapons cache stored inside this Holy/ammo place.:idea2:

[Devastatin Dave]

On a side note, what a great answer to prayer (or wishful thinking considering from who this is based) for the Left. Looks like they'll finally get that civil war they've been hoping for!!! Let me be the first to congratulate you.:2thumbsup:
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/iraq
I can almost see Jimmy Carter, Kofi Annan, and Chirac in an entangled threesome celebrating and girating in errotic joy and happiness.:knuddel:

[Lemur]

The only person I hear yelling "Yeee-hah" is you, DevDave, as you try to numb yourself to the horror with happy visions of traitorous liberals. But I tell you what, a tragedy like this is best taken straight up, with no partisan chaser.

[Xiahou]

Well, here's what I don't get. I wouldn't blow up a synagogue or a buddhist temple, let alone a Greek Orthodox chuch (which I think is closer to the differences between Sunni & Shiite muslims). What a shame. Isn't there a respect for the house of Allah in Islam that would have stopped these monsters, even if u don't agree with the uys that built it?I really dont think this bombing was a shiite vs sunni 'thing'. I tend to think that it was more about terrorists trying to create chaos and ratchet up the tensions between sunnis and shiites. I'd suggest that it shows how desperate they are, that the only plan they have left is to try to spark a civil war. Hopefully, cooler heads will win out and they can see these attacks for what they are.

Regardless, it's a tragedy to see such a religous monument destroyed. :shame:

[Lemur]

I'd suggest that it shows how desperate they are, that the only plan they have left is to try to spark a civil war.
Yeah, it seems pretty obvious that somebody thinks a civil war will be to their benefit. Curious to see if we'll find out who that is, exactly. AQ in Iraq would be the obvious answer, but I wouldn't put it past some radical Baathists to say, "Hey, we'll win, so let's start something." I really, really hope the authorities track down everyone involved in this outrage, squeeze them for every drop of info, and hand them over to the mob.

I don't normally want to see folks ripped limb from limb, but when people start blowing up holy sites, my perspective shifts a little ...

[edit]

Looks like some people on the ground believe we've already reached the tipping point (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/MAC231520.htm). I hope they're wrong.


three Sunni clerics were among six killed at dozens of Sunni mosques attacked, police said; in the bloodiest apparent reprisal, gunmen in police uniforms took 11 Sunni rebel suspects from a jail and killed them in the mainly Shi'ite city of Basra.

Sectarian clashes hit a number of cities. In Baghdad, people rushed home before dark, some stocking up on food.

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, accused the bombers, who also dressed as policemen, of trying to derail talks on a national unity coalition. "We must ... work together against ... the danger of civil war," he told Iraqis in a televised address.

[Proletariat]

Why does everyone think there must be some puppet master in order for a civil war here? Does no one really think that the Shiites and Sunnis are capable of starting a civil war with each other without being manipulated by AQ? It seems like a regression to a more natural state for these groups.

Can anyone tell me what the rifts between the two sects are over? Is it geopolitical or strictly religious? I'm thinking of course it's a good amount of both, but it would make sense wrt to Don's question that the latter was the biggest part of it.

[Xiahou]

Why does everyone think there must be some puppet master in order for a civil war here? Does no one really think that the Shiites and Sunnis are capable of starting a civil war with each other without being manipulated by AQ? It seems like a regression to a more natural state for these groups.

Can anyone tell me what the rifts between the two sects are over? Is it geopolitical or strictly religious? I'm thinking of course it's a good amount of both, but it would make sense wrt to Don's question that the latter was the biggest part of it.
Well, my uninformed opinion (and polls) would suggest that the majority of Iraqis want a unified country. Now obviously, there are some raw nerves as Sunnis, who were running things before now have a minority role and Shiites obviously, who were slaughtered wholesale by a Sunni dictator. But, it's very hard for me to believe that an attack like this would be perpetrated by anyone other than a terrorist thug. Anyone of any sort of real faith at all wouldn't destroy such a sacred place- hell, even Saddam didnt do it and he certainly had no love of Shiites.

I still say this is an act of desperation by AQ or some such group. Mind you, just because an act is desperate doesnt mean it cant succeed- but I do think it's a bit of desperation.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Muslims have been killing muslims over matters of religion for centuries. I'm only happy that christians have -- mostly -- gotten over that habit.

I only wish this were true. The north of my own country, Ireland, has been riven by sectarian civil war based on pseudo-religious excuses for more than thirty years - and on real religious greviances for a lot longer in the whole of the island. Bombing defenceless children was a hallmark of both Protestant and Catholic forces.

Religion can bring out the very worst as well as the very best. In the Yugoslavian civil war (the recollection of which should sober up anyone who thinks civil wars are exclusive to Muslim Arabs) there were many incidences of religious atrocities. The Croatians, by and large, are Catholic. The Serbs, Orthodox. Each Christian religion crosses themselves slighly differently - Catholics left shoulder to right, Orthodox right to left.

Both armies used to make the people of newly taken villages, mixed for hundreds of years, and put a gun to the terrified people's heads, telling them were to die. If they crossed themselves in the wrong way, they were shot.

This was in Europe, in the 1990's. Religion is used by all manner of evil men to further their ends. Both Islam and Christianity are at heart, doctrines of gentle peace. Rarely have the followers of each caused the founders anything but tears.

[Devastatin Dave]

The only person I hear yelling "Yeee-hah" is you, DevDave, as you try to numb yourself to the horror with happy visions of traitorous liberals. But I tell you what, a tragedy like this is best taken straight up, with no partisan chaser.
I'd like to have the same thought as you but it would seem the AP has already declared this the start of a civil war. I didn't realise that the AP had that sort of knowledge to already come to this conclusion. Seems like that had this headline ready to get the juices flowing for those wanting their prediction to come true. Its not like the AP is some bastion of the rightwing media i dare say. So I stand by my statement.

[kataphraktoi]

Difference in Christian conflicts is that the national identity makes religion tied to conflict, not religion tying national identity to conflict. Those wars are more about national identity and territory. If God is referenced, it is subjected to the cause of nationalism, not for any religious sanction.

As for the Sunni-Shia thing, meh...I'll let others comment on it.

[Bartix]

On a side note, what a great answer to prayer (or wishful thinking considering from who this is based) for the Left. Looks like they'll finally get that civil war they've been hoping for!!! Let me be the first to congratulate you.:2thumbsup:
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/iraq
I can almost see Jimmy Carter, Kofi Annan, and Chirac in an entangled threesome celebrating and girating in errotic joy and happiness.:knuddel:
I have heard some people celebrate death and destroying:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=61564

To be right about fear and warning is not a big happiness for some one with concern for well being of people and humanity, I am thinking. Only for people with messed up values.

[Shaka_Khan]

After the bombing of a mosque in Iraq, tensions between Iraqi groups are getting more dangerous. If the U.S. leaves now, then there will certainly be a civil war in Iraq. The U.S. started Iraq's regime change; therefore, the Americans have a responsibility to finish the job. Unfortunately, being the one who led the war, and being the one with the most influence over the Iraq, the U.S. will get much of the blame. It will be a difficult road whether the Americans leave Iraq or not.

I'm worried about how a civil war in Iraq will affect the Middle East.

[Adrian II]

Well, my uninformed opinion (and polls) would suggest that the majority of Iraqis want a unified country.My informed opinion tells me they voted exclusively along ethnic lines in December and are deeply devided over what sort of country they want. It is something we have know all along, and a civil war in Iraq has been going on for some time. This is merely a serious escalation, not the start of hostilities. For Pete's sake, is it so hard to understand that a thousand sectarian killings a month amounts to civil war? As for the dome, it is not at all clear that the attack was religiously motivated. There are so many militias and death squads operating in Iraq. Security, intelligence and counter-insurgency in Iraq are a joke and it may be a month, a year, even twenty-five years before we know who was behind this provocation.

[Adrian II]

Papewaio already opened a thread on this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=61604).

[Ironside]

On a side note, what a great answer to prayer (or wishful thinking considering from who this is based) for the Left. Looks like they'll finally get that civil war they've been hoping for!!! Let me be the first to congratulate you.:2thumbsup:
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/iraq
I can almost see Jimmy Carter, Kofi Annan, and Chirac in an entangled threesome celebrating and girating in errotic joy and happiness.:knuddel:

There's a slight difference between predicting something and hope that you're wrong and celebrating that you were right.

[Reverend Joe]

I'd like to have the same thought as you but it would seem the AP has already declared this the start of a civil war. I didn't realise that the AP had that sort of knowledge to already come to this conclusion. Seems like that had this headline ready to get the juices flowing for those wanting their prediction to come true. Its not like the AP is some bastion of the rightwing media i dare say. So I stand by my statement.

I could... but it would just be too easy. So go ahead, Dave- keep your head packed real tight down in the sand.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You know what?

FUBAR, pull out.

I am totally fed up with this, at the start of the coalition occupation Brits were wearing berets out on patrol, uncapping water pipes and being freindly with the locals, now those same people are killing them

Time to go home.

[lars573]

Can anyone tell me what the rifts between the two sects are over? Is it geopolitical or strictly religious? I'm thinking of course it's a good amount of both, but it would make sense wrt to Don's question that the latter was the biggest part of it.

Shittes beleive that Ali, one of Mohammeds sons-in-law and third Caliph, was the last true Caliph. Sunnis believe that all Caliphs until the Mongol invasions (or there abouts) were true. Sunni's are about 2/3 of the whole Muslim population globally. Each group also beleives that the other are infedels and not true Muslims.

[Kanamori]

Oy vey. What a freaking disaster.:shame:

[Reenk Roink]

I always heard that Sunni and Shi'ites were not excommunicating each other as infidels like the Catholic/Orthodox split. I remember seeing (and later writing) in the "Heretic sects" thread in the Monestary that Sunni and Shi'ites generally do not consider the other "heretic" or "apostate" but rather "deviant."

I know that Sunnis believe that Abu Bakr, Omar, and Uthman were the first 3 caliphs, and that Ali was the fourth, and that these 4 were "rightly guided," while Shi'ites believe that Ali was the legitimate successor appointed by Muhammed and the other 3 were false caliphs.

Later, as the Shi'ite doctrine evolved, they belived that their imans who descended from Ali were unfalliable, while Sunnis believe that no caliph, cleric, or person, is unfalliable except the prophets.

Now, some Shi'ite splinter groups like Ismailis, or others who believe that Ali is God, or Ali is greater than Jesus, are considered infidels by both Sunnis and Shi'ites, but they are marginal.

Maybe LEN or fiz can clarify...

[Hurin_Rules]

Looks like the civil war has officially begun.

Over 100 dead today, and tomorrow, being Friday prayers, will most likely be far worse.

But hey, I'm sure all the violence will be over soon. Cheney assured us that the insurgency was 'in its last throes', right?

[Lemur]

BBC update today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4742188.stm), doesn't look so good:

Scores die amid Iraqi shrine fury
More than 100 people have been killed in Iraq in apparent revenge attacks after the bombing of a key Shia shrine.

Scores of bullet-riddled bodies have been found in Baghdad, while in the bloodiest attack 47 factory workers were killed near the capital.

President Jalal Talabani called an emergency summit of Iraq's political leaders to discuss the violence.

Sunni Arab politicians boycotted the meeting and pulled out of coalition talks in protest at reprisal attacks.

"We are suspending our participation in negotiations on the government with the Shia Alliance," said Tareq al-Hashimi, a top official from the Iraqi Accord Front, Iraq's main Sunni Arab alliance.

Dozens of Sunni mosques have been targeted and several burnt to the ground since bombers blew up the golden dome of the revered al-Askari shrine in Samarra on Wednesday morning, reports say.

In a rare public rebuke, the main Sunni religious authority - the Association of Muslim Scholars - accused Iraq's top Shia cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, of fomenting the violence.

Ayatollah Sistani has urged Shias not to attack Sunni mosques, but a spokesman for the cleric said anger might be hard to contain.

"You wouldn't expect an abrupt or sudden calm, because there are some people whose reaction you can't control," London-based Fadel Bahar al-Eloum told the BBC.

In other developments:

US President George W Bush calls the bombing of the shrine an "evil act" and appeals for an end to reprisal attacks
Tens of thousands of Lebanese Shia Muslims rally in Beirut in protest at the shrine attack
An angry crowd prevents Iraqi Housing Minister Jassem Mohammed's convoy from reaching the bombed shrine in Samarra
The Iraqi government cancels all police and army leave and extends the curfew in Baghdad.

'No-one safe'

As violence showed no sign of abating, Iraq's leaders have increasingly warned of the dangers of a civil war.

After meeting Shias, Kurds and leaders of a smaller Sunni group, President Talabani said in a televised broadcast if all-out war came "no-one would be safe", Reuters news agency reported.

The attack on the al-Askari shrine - which will be seen as a direct assault on the identity and rights of an entire community - takes the danger of a civil conflict to a new level, the BBC's Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen says.

A civil war would destroy the chances of the elected Shia-led government which is still being formed following December's election, and could lead to the break-up of the country, he says.

Mounting toll

In the heaviest single loss of life, the 47 factory workers were killed after being dragged out of their vehicles in Nahrawan, on the outskirts of Baghdad.

The victims, aged between 20 and 50, had been travelling home from work in a convoy of buses when they were ambushed and shot dead.

It is not clear whether the murders are linked to the attack on the shrine or whether they are part of the general insurgency.

Elsewhere, the bodies of a prominent al-Arabiya TV reporter and two of her crew, who had gone to cover the attack on the shrine, were discovered on Thursday morning.

Correspondent Atwar Bahjat's body was among the three found about 15km (10 miles) north of Samarra.

At least 12 people died in a bomb attack on an Iraqi army patrol in the town of Baquba, while one person died in a gun attack on a Sunni mosque in the city.

In other attacks, four US soldiers were killed near Hawijah, while three died near Balad, when their vehicles were hit by roadside bombs, the US army said on Thursday.

[Dâriûsh]

BBC update today (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4742188.stm), doesn't look so good:

Scores die amid Iraqi shrine fury
More than 100 people have been killed in Iraq in apparent revenge attacks after the bombing of a key Shia shrine.

Scores of bullet-riddled bodies have been found in Baghdad, while in the bloodiest attack 47 factory workers were killed near the capital.

President Jalal Talabani called an emergency summit of Iraq's political leaders to discuss the violence.

Sunni Arab politicians boycotted the meeting and pulled out of coalition talks in protest at reprisal attacks.

"We are suspending our participation in negotiations on the government with the Shia Alliance," said Tareq al-Hashimi, a top official from the Iraqi Accord Front, Iraq's main Sunni Arab alliance.

Dozens of Sunni mosques have been targeted and several burnt to the ground since bombers blew up the golden dome of the revered al-Askari shrine in Samarra on Wednesday morning, reports say.

In a rare public rebuke, the main Sunni religious authority - the Association of Muslim Scholars - accused Iraq's top Shia cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, of fomenting the violence.

Ayatollah Sistani has urged Shias not to attack Sunni mosques, but a spokesman for the cleric said anger might be hard to contain.

"You wouldn't expect an abrupt or sudden calm, because there are some people whose reaction you can't control," London-based Fadel Bahar al-Eloum told the BBC.

In other developments:

US President George W Bush calls the bombing of the shrine an "evil act" and appeals for an end to reprisal attacks
Tens of thousands of Lebanese Shia Muslims rally in Beirut in protest at the shrine attack
An angry crowd prevents Iraqi Housing Minister Jassem Mohammed's convoy from reaching the bombed shrine in Samarra
The Iraqi government cancels all police and army leave and extends the curfew in Baghdad.

'No-one safe'

As violence showed no sign of abating, Iraq's leaders have increasingly warned of the dangers of a civil war.

After meeting Shias, Kurds and leaders of a smaller Sunni group, President Talabani said in a televised broadcast if all-out war came "no-one would be safe", Reuters news agency reported.

The attack on the al-Askari shrine - which will be seen as a direct assault on the identity and rights of an entire community - takes the danger of a civil conflict to a new level, the BBC's Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen says.

A civil war would destroy the chances of the elected Shia-led government which is still being formed following December's election, and could lead to the break-up of the country, he says.

Mounting toll

In the heaviest single loss of life, the 47 factory workers were killed after being dragged out of their vehicles in Nahrawan, on the outskirts of Baghdad.

The victims, aged between 20 and 50, had been travelling home from work in a convoy of buses when they were ambushed and shot dead.

It is not clear whether the murders are linked to the attack on the shrine or whether they are part of the general insurgency.

Elsewhere, the bodies of a prominent al-Arabiya TV reporter and two of her crew, who had gone to cover the attack on the shrine, were discovered on Thursday morning.

Correspondent Atwar Bahjat's body was among the three found about 15km (10 miles) north of Samarra.

At least 12 people died in a bomb attack on an Iraqi army patrol in the town of Baquba, while one person died in a gun attack on a Sunni mosque in the city.

In other attacks, four US soldiers were killed near Hawijah, while three died near Balad, when their vehicles were hit by roadside bombs, the US army said on Thursday.

For the love of God... :shame:

[Don Corleone]

Looks like the civil war has officially begun.

Over 100 dead today, and tomorrow, being Friday prayers, will most likely be far worse.

But hey, I'm sure all the violence will be over soon. Cheney assured us that the insurgency was 'in its last throes', right?

I agree that what's happening in Baghdad right now is sad and deplorable. But just for the record, is it a civil war, or is it an insurgency? Or are the two terms interchangable in your mind, so long as the Administration comes out looking bad?

I don't mean this disrespectfully by any means, but if the Mosque is 100 years old, how 'holy' can it be? I understand that it was built on a holy site, but can't it just be rebuilt?

[Lemur]

But just for the record, is it a civil war, or is it an insurgency?
Intresting question. There have been conflicts everyone agreed were civil wars which had lower body counts than this. Does the semantic difference mean anything anymore? Would it change anything if we called it one or the other?

What a mess. And what a tragedy.

[Xiahou]

I don't mean this disrespectfully by any means, but if the Mosque is 100 years old, how 'holy' can it be? I understand that it was built on a holy site, but can't it just be rebuilt?I thought it was actually last reconstructed in the 1950's- but Im not entirely sure.

This is definitely looking like something of a crossroads for Iraq. Will Iraqi political and religious leaders start pulling together or will they tear apart? For my part, I hope they rise to this challenge.

[Don Corleone]

Intresting question. There have been conflicts everyone agreed were civil wars which had lower body counts than this. Does the semantic difference mean anything anymore? Would it change anything if we called it one or the other?

What a mess. And what a tragedy.

An insurgency is the Iraqis rising up against the tyranical American invaders. A civil war is Sunni Iraqis attacking Shiite Iraqis & vice versa (something that would happen were US troops there or not).

My question wasn't in terms of scale. My question was probing the reason for the confluence of the two terms. Either the Iraqis are attacking each other, or they're attacking us. I'd say the administration is really only responsible (partially) for the latter. You can't pin the animosity between Sunnis and Shiites on Dick Cheney.

I find it interesting Lemur that you chose to selectively quote me in a way that removes that context from my earlier post.

[Lemur]

In answer to part 1, this is clearly an Iraqi-on-Iraqi fight right now, so it's not an insurgency as such.

As for selective quoting, I was trying to pull what I thought was the thought-provoking part out of a rhetorical question. No harm meant.

[edit]

Quote for the day (http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=uri:2006-02-23T195949Z_01_MAC231520_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ.xml&pageNumber=1&summit=), in my book:


"The issue hangs on the next few days. Either the gates of hell open onto a civil war or the Shi'ites will take more power," said Baghdad political science professor Hazim al-Naimi. "Only the U.S. military is preventing war in some areas."

[Tribesman]

I don't mean this disrespectfully by any means, but if the Mosque is 100 years old, how 'holy' can it be? I understand that it was built on a holy site, but can't it just be rebuilt?
The complex was built in the 10th and 11th centuries , though elements within it go back to the 9th . The dome was finished in 1905 .
Yep it can be rebuilt , but that doesn't change the fact that someone blew it up does it .
The destruction or building of a structure doesn't really mean that much , but the attack on what the structure represents does .

[Don Corleone]

Fair enough, Lemur, and if I'm coming of as a touch thin-skinned, my apologies. :bow:

Anyway, I agree with you completely, that this is a tragedy. I hope and pray that it won't get too much worse, but it's hard to say.

Your quote is rather remarkable, except for the fact that it seems that in Iraq, everyone has an agenda. I don't know that the 'truth' really exists there anymore, period, just different versions of it here and there.

Sunnis and Shiites have been living together for what, 1200 years now? How have things traditionally been moderated when things flared up?

Another curiosity question... Iran, Iraq & apparently Lebanon are majority Shiite. Where are majority Sunnis? Do the divisions tend to follow geographic lines or is it a real mess, and it's everyone right on top of each other?

[Don Corleone]

What the hell, double post??? :balloon:

Edit: Well, I may as well make something out of this...

The reason for my question about geographic boundaries... I think the nastiest conflicts in history have always been between segments of population that don't have geographic separation. Think the Irish Civil War, the English Civil War, the French treatment of the Hugenots, stuff like that (I can't count the Shoah, as it was about as one-sided as a conflict gets).

Interesting fact about American history... we've only had one civil war, and a bloody one at that, but we don't call it that, and what we do call a civil war, strictly speaking, wasn't. The American 'revolution' was in fact a civil war... you had libertine and loyalist factions in every city (heck, every family). We tend to forget we lost 1/3 of our population after the Treaty of Paris because the loyalists didn't think their lives would be worth a plug nickel if they stayed. Hence, Canada.

[Big_John]

Another curiosity question... Iran, Iraq & apparently Lebanon are majority Shiite. Where are majority Sunnis?pretty much everywhere else.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Distribution_of_Islam.jpg

[Proletariat]

Thanks, lars and Roink. Sounds like a hotch-potch of both.

[Lemur]

This is really worth a read -- a series of eyewitness accounts (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/13944985.htm) of what's going on, as told by an AP reporter embedded with the Marines in western Iraq.

Associated Press

Antonio Castaneda is embedded with Marines from Regimental Combat Team 7 in western Iraq. This is the latest of blog entries from his current tour.

---

THURSDAY, Feb. 23, 11:57 p.m. local

ROMMANA, Iraq

As word spread about the bombing of the Askariya shrine and the ensuing wave of sectarian violence that erupted across Iraq, I immediately thought of a poignant conversation I had over two months ago.

I was in Samarra in late November, the same city where the shrine was leveled yesterday, sitting with a group of U.S. soldiers in the warm living room of a local teacher and with his son. The soldiers were searching nearby homes around midnight and decided to chat with the teacher, whose son tried to be courteous but kept getting distracted by a televised soccer game. It was certainly an odd social dynamic - several armed men and a reporter stopping for an unexpected visit at midnight - but it was common enough for Iraq that no one seemed surprised.

The Sunni Arab teacher was pleasant to the Americans but spoke in the frank tone used by elderly people who stopped caring about impressions long ago. I asked the Iraqi interpreter, a Shiite from the southern part of the country, to get his opinion on the Iraqi paramilitary commandos who had started taking control of Samarra from U.S. troops. The commandos were also mostly Shiite and from outside Samarra.

Instead of answering, the interpreter and the teacher started arguing in the living room. It wasn't a hostile exchange, but a rapid and tense debate in Arabic. I politely and unsuccessfully tried to interrupt. They exchanged more words, until the interpreter finally translated the teacher's words.

"Many Interior Ministry police who are Shiite don't respect the people," the teacher had said. "Some Interior Ministry police think that the people of Samarra help the terrorists and they hate them."

There, in front of myself and the soldiers, the interpreter had been defending the security forces while the teacher insisted that the residents of Samarra were being mistreated. It was only until the interpreter explained that the soldiers and myself finally understood what was going on.

I couldn't help but later think about how many of these tensions go unnoticed by untrained Western eyes in this unfamiliar culture. Maybe the conversation was reflective of real fissures in Iraqi society, but maybe it was an aberration. Few Westerners could say with any certainty.

A few weeks ago, I interviewed a Marine commander in charge of training a brigade of Iraqi soldiers, most of whom were also Shiites, deployed in Sunni Arab dominated Anbar province. I asked him about the religious makeup of the Iraqi soldiers he oversaw.

"I've never really asked or cared if they're Sunni, Shiite, or Kurd. Frankly, I don't care," said Col. Daniel Newell, who said his priority was instead to prepare capable troops, regardless of their religious identity, to take on the insurgency. "Some would criticize me for saying this or not knowing this."

At the time I remember hoping that he was right for deemphasizing the importance of the religious divide in Iraq - but also fearing that he wasnt.

THURSDAY, Feb. 16, 10 p.m. local

KOREAN VILLAGE, Iraq

This evening I hitched a ride with a group of Marines who kindly drove me back from a desert outpost outside Rutbah, a town close to Iraq's borders with Syria and Jordan. Snow was expected, along with the usual cold gusts of wind that blew across this lifeless desert, so I was glad to take the half-hour trip back to a larger base known as Korean Village to get warmer clothes. The base was named for the workers brought in to help build the nearby four-lane highway that led to Baghdad.

The Marines listened to music on the ride, which occurred in complete darkness to hide them from possible triggermen in the distance waiting to detonate roadside bombs. As they watched out with their night vision goggles, music from the band "Good Charlotte" played. I realized that I was older than the Marines - and that my generation had better taste in music. I was saved when I heard the timeless voice of Robert Plant belt out Led Zeppelin tunes. I smiled.

This could almost be a fun road trip, I thought, speeding down a highway in complete darkness and listening to good music - if not for the threat of imminent death. One courteous Marine from Staten Island had told me days before that there was a 1 in 15 chance of getting hit by a roadside bomb on these roads. But there had been a recent cutback in the bombs, and I had long ago stopped worrying about things I couldn't control. In the past I had soundly slept to the dull roar of a Humvee's engine on similar roads.

My thoughts were interrupted when tunes by the notorious 1980s hairband "Poison" kicked in. The song "Every Rose Has a Thorn" played, which made me desperately hope that we wouldn't be maimed to such an appallingly bad song. I wasn't about to complain though. Music had a disproportionately positive effect in lifeless parts of Iraq, and I had just seen the Spartan living conditions that these Marines survived in. They deserved to listen to whatever music they preferred, even if it was this bad.

Truck drivers in the opposite lane flashed their bright headlights at us, probably to inspect the mysterious shadows speeding down the opposite lane. I wondered what those drivers thought when they saw a Humvee with a gunner dangling from the turret above - and what he would think if he also knew that a bunch of twenty-something Marines were listening to bad 80s music inside.

WEDNESDAY, Feb. 8, 12:44 a.m., local

RAMADI, Iraq

The Super Bowl came and went early this week. While I didn't mind missing the game, I slept soundly in a storeroom full of IV bags and gauze bandages that night, I could tell the passing national celebration made some American troops long for home even more than usual. That was especially true for the Pennsylvania National Guard who missed their Steelers win a championship. One soldier outlined in detail the keg party he would have thrown back home; another told me about his efforts to have pierogies, a taste of Pittsburgh cuisine, shipped about 8,000 miles to him.

I didn't know the final score of the game until I asked a Marine brushing his teeth next to me the next day. He first responded with a startled look, he had mistaken me for an Iraqi interpreter. I guess interpreters don't usually ask for NFL updates.

Beyond missing out on sporting events and parties, many soldiers say the real pain of being away from home is directly correlated to your daily schedule. The busier you are in Iraq, the better it goes, many say. For others, though, home is still too far away.

"Man, I miss Atlanta ...," exclaimed Wylie Hughes, a Marine from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment, during a foot patrol in October in the western city of Haditha.

I also remember talking to another Marine at the same time whose wife had just suffered a miscarriage. The babyfaced Marine, who couldn't have been more than 21 or 22, was making expensive nightly calls to his wife back home on a satellite phone. I could tell the situation was wearing on him.

Other troops, particularly those on large city-bases such as Camp Victory in Baghdad or the enormous Balad airbase, now benefit from a stunning range of fast food restaurants, mini-department stores and large Internet and phone centers. Life near headquarters isn't bad, if you can escape the violence.

For those in remote areas of Iraq, a seven-month deployment (for Marines) or a one-year tour (for soldiers) can be an endurance test away from the conveniences of life in the Western world.

Over the weekend I ate with a group of transiting soldiers who hadn't been to a decent dining facility in months. Everyone overindulged, including one lieutenant who seemed intent on consuming all the food he had missed over the past few months. I watched him eat a cheeseburger, turkey breast, burrito, omelet, carrot cake, a serving of chili and four banana drinks. He explained his behavior by describing the food he usually eats back at his home base in Habaniyah.

"Sometimes it tastes funny, sometimes it's good, but you can't go back for more and then you end up going to heat up a Chili Mac," said 2nd Lt. Jacob Right of Pittsburgh. "I haven't eaten well in seven months."

WEDNESDAY, Feb. 1, 11:53 p.m. local

KHALDIYAH, Iraq

As a child, I enjoyed reading the Dr. Seuss classic, "Oh, the places you'll go." More than two decades later, the operative theme during my assignment in Iraq seems to be, "Oh, the places you'll sleep."

I'm currently staying with U.S. soldiers who advise and train a battalion of Iraqi soldiers in a small base overlooking this riverside town between Fallujah and Ramadi, cities notorious for their history of violence. This outpost, made of several aging concrete buildings on a hilltop surrounded by barbed wire, is thought to have once been part of an ammunition dump used by Saddam's Army.

Some may find the idea of sleeping in an old ammo dump complex intolerable, but a year spent in over 30 military bases in Iraq - and a childhood with four siblings and a dog crowded into a small home - swept away such concerns.

I once soundly slept on top of shattered glass in the hallway of a bombed-out police station in Haditha, ignoring the dried bloodstains on the walls and using my bulletproof vest as a blanket on an unseasonably cold night.

In October, I shivered away but managed to sleep in the backseat of a Humvee as soldiers waited for a trailer to tow away another Humvee that had just been hit by a roadside bomb. And before the constitutional referendum that same month, I slept in a dusty storage room of a school that had been turned into a polling station, surrounded by piles of notebooks with covers displaying a smiling Saddam sitting next to a wide-eyed pupil.

This time I was kindly given the top bunk in a cluttered room. My host offered me the bed while another soldier studiously shot several virtual policemen while playing the "Grand Theft Auto" videogame. The room far exceeded my original expectations: heat was available and those exceptional chocolate mint Girl Scout cookies, sent by a soldier's thoughtful relative, were available down the hall.

On other occasions, though, I was not this fortunate. Perhaps my most distressing evening came not during an early morning mission or nighttime mortar attack, but inside a warm, comfortable trailer just outside the city of Tal Afar in northern Iraq.

My roommate at the time was a German journalist who wrote for a trade magazine that profiled U.S. military trucks a "People" magazine of sorts for those inclined toward heavy weaponry. The writer's knowledge of military equipment and weapons was remarkable, as were the number of days that had passed since he had last bathed. To compound the situation, one morning around 2 a.m. the Paladins on the U.S. base started shooting rounds in the distance, shaking our trailer and abruptly waking both of us up.

The "outgoing" fire wasn't the problem I had long grown accustomed to sleeping through explosions but the nearby booms commenced a line of commentary about the likely weapons systems employed. Prior to that memorable night, I did not know how to identify various shells in the U.S. arsenal by the sounds they make when fired.

SATURDAY, Jan. 28, 3:46 p.m. local

EXITING RAMADI, Iraq, on HIGHWAY 10

If the guardrails weren't all smashed, you might believe you were riding down a new highway somewhere in southwest America.

There's smooth asphalt and three lanes neatly separated by lines of white paint cutting through miles of desert on this stretch of road just outside the western city of Ramadi. This part of Highway 10, which cuts across from Amman, Jordan to Baghdad, stood out; I'm accustomed to riding roads marked with craters from powerful bombs that regularly throw blocks of asphalt into the air. I thought of a trip I made to Baqouba last month, where one night I saw a wedding party of singing guests packed in tiny decorated cars swerve around craters along a downtown street.

Roadside bombs are the most common form of insurgent attack in Iraq: According to U.S. military statistics, there were nearly 11,000 roadside bombings here last year, or about 30 per day. Most American casualties come from such attacks.

These bombings, along with the threat of suicide car bombers, have resulted in one unfortunate reality for Iraqi drivers: they must pay attention and suddenly turn off onto roadsides or keep a safe distance every time a U.S. patrol or convoy passes by.

The drivers on this highway were alerted to the convoy I was riding with by a blaring siren that signaled them to pull over.

At one point the gunner's legs dangling from the hatch above tensed up, which I've seen before as soldiers prepare to fire their 50 caliber gun from the top of the Humvee. Fortunately, the suspect car turned away.

For all their armor and weaponry, the Humvees sharply turned away from each vehicle they passed, carefully steering away from both tiny, aging jalopies and large cargo trucks. The soldiers methodically scanned the vehicles and roadsides.

Shortly after we turned off onto a small paved road that led to a U.S. military base, a suspicious mound of trash lay beside the road. Our driver tried to stop, but he hit the brakes too late.

One soldier braced for the blast, but nothing detonated. Then began a recurring debate among the troops that must take place dozens of times each day: whether to call in an explosives detonation team, which could take hours for them to arrive, or diagnose the litter themselves with binoculars from afar.

"This is just stupid. There's just no reason why we can't just shoot and tear it up," said Staff Sgt. Jeff McConnell, a National Guardsman from Grand Island, Nebraska, as soldiers looked at the trash. "For two or three dollars of ammo we could take care of this. Instead, we're going to send a soldier to go and kick it around."

Patience was thin. "Come on ... stick your head over the hill," said McConnell, a Nebraska National Guardsman, as he looked out onto a long ridge of sand in the distance for a possible triggerman. Eventually the trash was discovered to be just that - a pile of harmless roadside garbage.

Farther down the road, we passed an enormous crater in the center from a prior bombing. From its size, it easily could have killed everyone inside a Humvee, regardless if it was uparmored or not. As we swerved around the hole, a group of enormous military trucks, one with the name "LUCIFER" painted in black on its front, passed by, heading the opposite way down the road.

FRIDAY, Jan. 27, 7:05 p.m. local

RAMADI, Iraq

A portrait of a scorching Iraq made of oceans of sand, sagging and nondescript buildings has been etched into the public mindset. But there's another side of Iraq that slowly takes form over the winter: one of freezing nights and occasional rainstorms that turn swaths of the country into giant mud puddles.

Here in Ramadi, possibly Iraq's most violent city, weather should be the last thing on anyone's mind as the city endures urban shootouts and daily explosions. But weather is morale, remarked a colleague to me as he trudged through a mud landscape and tentatively tested the depth of murky pools of water with the tip of his boot. A usually annoying inconvenience took on new dimensions as tanks and multi-ton armored vehicles plowed down the narrow streets of this military base, creating ravines hidden by sheets of cold, standing water. The mud stuck on boots, socks, jackets, hair, mattresses and brought a dull chill to everything. "Everything else isn't so bad but it's the mud that gets to you. Look, you've only been here two days and you're already packed in it," said Sgt. Rich Scaricaciottoli as he escorted me through Camp Ar Ramadi, which looked mostly the same since my last visit in May. I wondered how Korean war veterans had endured tours through similar weather - and more casualties - over longer periods of time.

For as miserable as the weather was, it still didn't halt the violence. Early in the morning I headed out with U.S. Marines and soldiers searching for an Iraqi contractor accused of using a large generator - purchased with U.S. reconstruction funds for a local school - for about 20 homes, including his own and those of several relatives and friends. Instead, the unit was initially diverted to look for gunmen who had decided to spend their Friday morning taking potshots at a U.S. position beside a major highway.

Things were surprisingly calm in the small cluster of homes where U.S. troops said they saw the gunfire originate. While semis and cars traveling from Syria and western Iraq to Baghdad sped in the distance, with flapping tarps smacking against speeding trucks hauling various goods, the residents said they knew nothing about the attack. It was an all too familiar - and frustrating - predicament for U.S. troops in Iraq, who regularly met Iraqi residents who either supported insurgents or remained too afraid of them to disclose any valuable intelligence.

And then there, in one family's front yard, was the mud again - but this time partly covered by red pools of blood harbored within fresh, round footprints. U.S. troops had fired back and shot one man in the rear, sending him sprawling into the mud lake that was this family's front yard. The family claimed their son, who had been taken away for medical treatment by U.S. troops, had simply been walking to the outhouse when the bullets came flying by. U.S. troops countered that their son had tested positive for gunshot residue and questioned a "MAM" - or military age male.

The family of the injured man was surprisingly calm and quiet for a group that had just seen a relative crumple on their front yard from a gunshot wound. They mostly watched the Americans and gave short answers to questions from the commanding officer, Lt. Jason Secrest, a young officer from York, Pa., assigned to the 1st Battalion, 172nd Regiment. The middle-aged Iraqi produced an ID badge that said he once worked at a nearby U.S. base. The troops moved on to the neighboring house.

There were no men at the next home - only a middle-aged woman wearing a blue headscarf and dark dress who waited to be questioned as several restless children milled around. As she held her baby girl, she said she knew nothing of the gunfire but said her husband had left to buy a new car and had gone missing.

"He left for Baghdad one month ago and he's disappeared," she explained as roosters crowed and ran around in the mud of her backyard. Violence was nearly impossible to escape in this tortured part of Iraq.

"Can you check his name in the computer to see if he is dead?" she calmly asked. "If you find anything, please let me know."

-- Antonio Castaneda

[Kanamori]

Sunnis have been killing shiite civilians for some time. However, before now the shiites have been showing remarkable restraint w/ only the rogue shiite death sqauds, that I know of, and supposedly they were stopped. They're lengthening the curfew through tomorrow, but how long can they keep a huge city under curfew and will people be less angry when it's lifted? I fear it will take a long time for both sides to cool down from this.

[Xiahou]

Sunnis have been killing shiite civilians for some time. However, before now the shiites have been showing remarkable restraint w/ only the rogue shiite death sqauds, that I know of, and supposedly they were stopped. They're lengthening the curfew through tomorrow, but how long can they keep a huge city under curfew and will people be less angry when it's lifted? I fear it will take a long time for both sides to cool down from this.
People are saying that alot could hinge on Friday prayers- if clerics preach restraint it could have an enormous calming effect.... Of course, the exact opposite could also happen. Again, let's hope that cooler heads prevail and people see that violence would only be playing into terrorist hands.

[Hurin_Rules]

I agree that what's happening in Baghdad right now is sad and deplorable. But just for the record, is it a civil war, or is it an insurgency? Or are the two terms interchangable in your mind, so long as the Administration comes out looking bad?

An insurgency is the Iraqis rising up against the tyranical American invaders. A civil war is Sunni Iraqis attacking Shiite Iraqis & vice versa (something that would happen were US troops there or not).



Some of the violence in Iraq is due to the insurgency; some is an emerging civil war. So the answer to your question is that the US invasion has opened the door to both. Iraqis are fighting both the US (insurgency) and each other (civil war).

Without the US, there would have been no insurgency, nor would the one force that prevented civil war-- i.e. Saddam Hussein--have been removed. America must take much of the blame for both, as the American gov't was warned repeatedly that both would occur if they invaded.

[Proletariat]

Without the US, there would have been no insurgency, nor would the one force that prevented civil war-- i.e. Saddam Hussein--have been removed. America must take much of the blame for both, as the American gov't was warned repeatedly that both would occur if they invaded.

This is absurd. How is America to blame any more than Saddam? This civil war was just a matter of time after Saddam invaded Kuwait. Or were you against Desert Storm, too?

[Papewaio]

Some of the violence in Iraq is due to the insurgency; some is an emerging civil war. So the answer to your question is that the US invasion has opened the door to both. Iraqis are fighting both the US (insurgency) and each other (civil war).

Without the US, there would have been no insurgency, nor would the one force that prevented civil war-- i.e. Saddam Hussein--have been removed. America must take much of the blame for both, as the American gov't was warned repeatedly that both would occur if they invaded.

You do realise of course that the door that kept such an uprising closed was Saddam and his secret police who massacred many many Iraqis.

I don't think that cure is better then this result.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You do realise of course that the door that kept such an uprising closed was Saddam and his secret police who massacred many many Iraqis.

I don't think that cure is better then this result.

Good point, Pappy.

One of the annoying aspects of the "You should've known it would end up a civil war bloodbath without Saddam" position is the implicit statement that a thug standing on their necks is the only way to prevent this kind of religious/civil war.

And yes, I mean implicit -- most of those posting from this perspective bear no inherent love for dictatorship.

It just chafes me that so many can succumb to the thinking that the Iraqis are not capable of better.

I guess history will tell us all.

[solypsist]

so have we gotten full revenge for what Iraq did to the twin towers?

[Papewaio]

Smart **** mode

Well if Americans only knew like their geography like they would have invaded the correct bastion of all these problems... Saudi Arabia... but in the desert it is so easy to get lost so no blame there.

I say we blame it on the French. It's their fault afterall. If they were as compeetent as their egos then they would have been able to stop Britian from dividing up the ME in the first place, as the French would have commanded 1/4 of the world it would have been a place of love and fellow respect for all men. Also they would have developed nuclear energy earlier and bypassed the whole gasoline phase.

[Adrian II]

In the New York Review of Books former U.S.envoy Peter Galbraith blames George Bush fair and square.


Much of the Iraq fiasco can be directly attributed to Bush's shortcomings as a leader. He conducted his Iraq policy with an arrogance not matched by political will. We invaded Iraq to protect ourselves against non-existent WMDs and to promote democracy. Democracy in Iraq brought to power Iran's allies who are in a position to ignite an uprising against American troops that would make current problems with the Sunni insurgency seem insignificant. Iran in effect holds the US hostage in Iraq and as a consequence we have no good military or non-military options in dealing with Iran's nuclear facilities. Unlike the 1979 hostage crisis, we did this to ourselves.

[Husar]

Iran in effect holds the US hostage in Iraq and as a consequence we have no good military or non-military options in dealing with Iran's nuclear facilities.
I wanted the Bundeswehr to invade Iran, but we already need soldiers from Bavaria(south) to fight the bird flu in the north...
And over the years, some people wanted to reduce troop numbers even more.:oops:
In 2020 when Iran´s nuclear missiles will target Germany, our 100 left soldiers will probably be sufficient to defend the country.:help:
Oh, what country? They weren´t even enough to fight the bird flu -> no country left(well, no people, no country, right?)
What a huge mess...:dizzy2: :furious3:

[Don Corleone]

So your position, Adrian, like Mr. Galbraith is that you would support military action against Iran, in an effort to stop it from acquiring nuclear weapons? What was the second part of that? You have some beachfront property in Arizona you'd like to sell me?


I agree that what's going on over there is terrible, but honest to God...

News flash: Common cold in Iraq found to be fault of Bush administration.

[Xiahou]

Fortunately, for now at least, it seems cooler heads are prevailing.
link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060224/ts_nm/iraq_dc)


Though tens of thousands of Shi'ite supporters of militant cleric Moqtada al-Sadr defied the ban to march to weekly prayers in Baghdad's Sadr City stronghold and his Mehdi Army militia was involved in clashes, there was little bloodshed and appeals from pulpits may have nudged
Iraq back from the brink of civil war.

.....snip.....

"What happened at the (Shi'ite) shrine was an attempt to divide Muslims," a Sunni preacher in Baghdad told worshippers.

[Major Robert Dump]

And to think of all the small busineses that will suffer.....

[solypsist]

You know what Iraq needs to stop the ethnic groups from devolving into civil war?
A nice good strongman. Preferably secular, but whatever, so long as he's brutal enough to keep those [whatever you want to call them] in line.

[Devastatin Dave]

You know what Iraq needs to stop the ethnic groups from devolving into civil war?
A nice good strongman. Preferably secular, but whatever, so long as he's brutal enough to keep those [whatever you want to call them] in line.
Free Saddam!!!:laugh4:

[Lemur]

Or as one of my extemely right-wing relatives used to say during the Bosnian/Serbian kerfluffle, "Where's the Red Army when you need 'em?"

[Adrian II]

So your position, Adrian, like Mr. Galbraith is that you would support military action against Iran, in an effort to stop it from acquiring nuclear weapons?I might, after it becomes clear what sort of dealings the new Iranian presidency has with terrorist movements.
You have some beachfront property in Arizona you'd like to sell me?No, just the view of an American diplomat who has lots of experience with an ethnically divided nation (ex-Yougoslavia). As usual I leave the Rep-Dem pissing contest to others.

[Lemur]

A heart-wrenching cry from an Iraqi blogger: (http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/archives/2006_02_01_healingiraq_archive.html#114073472127770667)


What kind of nation are we? What kind of nation kills its intellectuals and academics, its doctors and healers, its women and children, its clerics and preachers? What kind of nation blows up churches and mosques, hotels and schools, funerals and weddings? We have left nothing sacred. Yet we have the insolence to accuse others of offending us, of vilifying us. I announce today that we have proved ourselves worthy of that vilification. Ten years ago, I denounced religion and disavowed Islam. I do not want to be forced to disavow my country and nation today, but with every new day, I’m afraid I am getting closer to it.