Muslim Armies, and Muslim Military strategy...

[Tigranes]

How do YOU use Muslim military types? I ask because I'm currently attempting an Expert Turkish campaign, and it's my first use of a Muslim faction. I usually stick with pagan (XL) or Catholic factions, infrequently using an Orthodox one.

There are a lot of units I'm unfamiliar with, and I can't just bring my old tactics with me. They don't work.

[acesman]

I have used the Turks a few times, the main elements of my army are;
-Saracen Infantry, to form a spear wall, the foundation of my armies.
-Turcoman Horse, used to harass the enemy before the main engagement, and as light pursuit cavalry for routed enemy troops.
-Ghazi Infantry, good flankers, armor piercing, sky-high morale, but poor defense. Still, if used carefully for flanking or routing, can be very effective.
-Armenian Heavy Cavalry, my best hard-hitters in the early era, I still tend to hold them back until the archers or spearmen wear down or fix the enemy in place, then I hit the enemy in the flank, if possible.
-Ghalum Bodyguards come with each noble, but they are expensive to keep or repair. Treat them like slow light cavalry.
-Turcoman Foot, a little stronger and faster then most archers, keep them out of melee.

When needed, I do use generic spearmen and archers, and camels are excellent in the desert. The Turkish army in the early period is one that relies on maneuver and missile fire more than hard hitting individual units.

Excellent guide to units and strategies can be found on the forum, Frogbeastegg in particular has done superb guides on both topics.

[Geezer57]

How do YOU use Muslim military types? I ask because I'm currently attempting an Expert Turkish campaign, and it's my first use of a Muslim faction. I usually stick with pagan (XL) or Catholic factions, infrequently using an Orthodox one.

There are a lot of units I'm unfamiliar with, and I can't just bring my old tactics with me. They don't work.

Forget about a heavy infantry slugging match - just about all your foot troop types are unsuitable until way late in the game (when you get Jannisary Heavy Infantry - at which point you're almost unbeatable). The only good "holding" unit is Saracen Infantry, a spear type unit with decent stats. You have no heavy axemen/swords for melee, but Ghazi Infantry have insane charge/attack/morale with horrible defense. So a good combination for infantry fighting is a mixture of Saracens to take and hold an enemy, while Ghazis run around the flanks/rear (they're fast foot, y'know?) and chew up the enemy from behind. Many of your infantry are archer/sword hybrids (Futuwwas and Turcoman Foot are examples) - Futuwwa have better attack and morale, but are poorly armored and have lower defense than Turcomans. So if you're planning on using your archers in melee after they run out of arrows, use the Futuwwas. But if your archers are there for defense, and might engage in an arrow duel with the enemy, then choose Turcomans.

The backbone of Turkish cavalry is the Turkoman Horse, a fast horse-archer with some melee capability. Skirmish with them until the enemy is depleted and tired, then think about ganging up in melee against isolated units.
For occasional-use semi-heavy cav, try to take Armenia, build up to Master Horse Breeder, and pump out Armenian Heavy Cavalry with the +2 valor bonus (+1 for Armenia, +1 for Master building). They're slightly better than Gulam Cavalry, with lower support costs. You can build them in Armenia, Rum, and Lesser Armenia (valor bonus only in Armenia).
You'll always aquire some Gulam Bodyguards, due to your heirs. Try to find time/resources to build some more, if for no other reason than to be able to repair/replentish your hiers' units. Even though GB's are only a 20-man unit, they'll fill the heavy cav role quite well. Just try not to get them stuck where they'll get completely destroyed - otherwise they valor-up quite quickly, and you can combine upvalored depleted units back into full-strength ones to keep your combat power high.

On the whole, though, the Turks are more of a "run and gun" faction than slugging match champions. You'll have much more success if you shoot up your enemies first, make them chase you around until they're tired and split up, then combine forces to destroy them in detail. It can be considerably more work for you as the commander, but when you win it's greatly rewarding! :2thumbsup:

[Crian]

The Turks are my favorite MTW faction!

As you've noticed, you really can't play them the same way you used Christian/Orthodox factions. In the early game, you'll have to make do with regular spearmen, supported by your Horse Archers and Turcoman Horse (learn to love 'em :2thumbsup:). A lot of your infantry are hybrids (Turcoman Infantry, Futtuwas, and Ottoman Infantry during the High Period), don't let the pictures fool you, they are NOT to be used in melee, unless the enemy is outnumbered/near the breaking point/peasants.

Once you get Saracen Infantry, they'll form the brunt of your battle lines, supported by Ghazis (I personally don't like them 'cause they're ugly). I personally prefer Ottoman Infantry... raining down arrows then closing in for the kill aftwerwards (don't get me wrong, this is not very effective, I just like to do it :laugh4:).

The cream of the Turkish military are the Janissary Heavy Infantry. Once you get them (quite late in the game), you're unstoppable. Don't bother with Janissary archers and infantry (trust me on this), stick with the Heavy Infantry. Khwarazmian cavalry (also late game) aren't very useful, despite their fearsome appearance. Also, despite their description, Ottoman Sipahi are best used as light cavalry (chasing horse archers, archers, routers, and flanking). Ghulams/Sippahis of the Porte are your best cavalry. Steppe Heavy Cavalry (can only be trained in the steppe provinces north of the Black Sea? I think) are also very good.

Oh, and all of the above apply if you have the expansion pack. :2thumbsup:

[mfberg]

Your bonused early units are the +2 valor AHC (Armenia), the +2v Turcoman horse (Tripoli) and +2v Turcoman Foot (Anatolia).
The slugging match with the catholics starts in High, with +1 valor Janissary Heavies from Bulgaria, +1 valor Janissary Archers from Georgia, Khwaraziam Cavalry (better than AHC on paper, but not unless they get some valor).

Your +2v Ottoman Sipahi (Rum, Edessa) and +2v AHC are the best cavalry units you get except the tiny (20 man) +1v Sipahi of the Porte (Tripoli) in Late. You also get your +2v Ottoman infantry (Rum) and your Late artillery is the envy of the catholic gun crews (fewer gun explosions) mortars, demi-cannon, seige cannon and serpentines.

Your ships are great in Early (deep sea, good attack Baggalas) mediocre in High, and dangerously outgunned in Late. Get control quick and don't give it up.

Jihads are Jihaderiffic. Defensive crusades, you can run as many as you want in any turn, but can only use them to take back land you have owned.

mfberg

[Tigranes]

Thanks for all the info!



Jihads are Jihaderiffic. Defensive crusades, you can run as many as you want in any turn, but can only use them to take back land you have owned.

So if I lose Wales (and, unfortunately, the three units of longbowmen), which I bribed to get, and which I probably will lose (0 loyalty, even at very low taxes), I can call a Jihad to try to get it back?

[acesman]

So if I lose Wales (and, unfortunately, the three units of longbowmen), which I bribed to get, and which I probably will lose (0 loyalty, even at very low taxes), I can call a Jihad to try to get it back?


Absolutely! And, if you're lucky, mow down some enemies on the way.

BTW, in the early period, you can get Khwaraziam Cavalry, but I agree that they are not as good as Armenian Heavies, except at taking damage in a melee, where their defense and armor allow them to stand in (a melee) longer than their Armenian brothers. And there is no place that increases their valor.

[Nikpalj]

What about the Egyptians? I'm attracted to them because of the mostly rich provinces and lucrative trade possibilities because I like building better than conquering, but their army composition seems dangerously thin to me, specially if I manage to survive long enough to see the Late period.

What am I supposed to fight off the Christian heavies with, Camels? Well, their Infantry won't be affraid of 'em...

[ajaxfetish]

The Egyptians don't get as many unique units as the Turks, and no one as heavy duty as the Janissaries. In your homelands you don't need to worry too much about Christian heavy infantry as their armor will be their worst enemy. When you start expanding things will be a little harder, but you do have good AP options (ghazis, abyssinians, mamluks). The Egyptians can either be about tactical finesse or overwhelming numbers, as you've got great economic potential. They aren't one of my best factions, however, so I'll leave it to others to give you more specific information.

Ajax

[Nikpalj]

Yes, expanding into Europe and defending my newly acquired real estate is what Im worried about... specially cause the Nubian spearmen are so weak, and all of the normal foot are unarmored.
Guess Ill just have to use the Kwarazmians more, maybe have 2 of them work together.

[mfberg]

Fighting Christian Heavies with Camels
The main rule is don't engage in face to face combat with a fresh knight unit, wait until they are engaged or tired and about to break. Flanking is the best move. Remember you camels are like slow light cavalry.


1. A couple of Spears (Nubian or Saracen Infantry)
2. Light Cavalry/Horse Archers
3. A couple of Camels Units

This works best in the desert, not quite as effective further north.
Get the heavies attention with your light horse, lead them on a chase. A short chase straight to your spears if you don't have much time, a long chase if you can take care of both ends of the battle at the same time.
End your chase close to the front of your spears, and charge through your spears to cover. If the Knights are impulsive they will charge your spears and start a nice little battle. Flank with camels and slaughter the Knights. Pull back behind your lines and use another light horse for another chase.

mfberg

[Tigranes]

Thanks for the help, guys! The campaign seems to be going well, so far.

I've got all of northern Africa, all of the Byzantine mainland territory (pushed them back into Italy after my Jihads), and I'm about to move north into both Russia and Iberia. I took the Brittanic Isles (except Ireland, those bastards... Two more turns...), and the English are now confined to Navarre in Iberia. The French are dominating Europe, and all of Russia is held only by Lithuania and Sweden. I took Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and Scania, as well. Just for fun, really, and for the Vikings. I'm still early enough that they will help, at least a bit.

I plan on teching up once I hold all of Iberia and a certain amount of Russia, so that I can get to Jannissaries before I reach western Europe. Planning now for the Mongols. Only sixty years before they get here.

[Tigranes]

Well, I'm in dire straights, now, but I believe I'll pull back out of this slump. Lost all loyalty in the Britannic Isles (including Ireland), and in Sardinia the island above it due to lost sea routes to my king. I've moved into Russia and central Europe. Hungary surprised me with a relatively large army in Hungary (province), where my initial invasion force was mostly spent. I have enough soldiers to win and hold the provinces I have in central Europe, but I don't think I can get them there in time. I might pull out and come back later. Hungary would gain almost all of central Europe, sharing with Bohemia, Germany, and Sweden, which is fast replacing Lithuania in Russia. The English and Irish have reemerged with horrifically large armies in the Brittanic Isles. Not happy about this at all. I just lost Upper Khazar to the Swedes. I've got a Crusade marching through Africa to take Palestine. I'm at war with almost everyone; my only friends being France and the Norwegians. Hell on Earth has broke out in western central Europe, with the reemergence of Germany and the Danes. The Byzantine's have reemerged but due to large garrisons, will be no real threat.

I can't get reinforcements to England or Ireland (where I'd moved most of my forces in the Brittanic Isles to escape the English who emerged a turn before), so I moved my forces to Wales (no English there) and Scotland (ditto). Sicilian's have a disproportionate navy, and are waging a dangerously effective naval war against me.

In only 20 years, the Mongols will be here. And then my nation will truly be tested in the forges of Hades. May I walk in the Light.

[Asmodai]

Dont lose nerves. There is solution.

Immediately retreat from europe and steppes. Concentrate on holding north africa and Middle East. You may establish you borders in balkan lands, or even constantinople.

The reappearing factions will spread their armies, and they will start fight with each other sooner or later.

While you retreat, leave only burned ground. Demolish every building, if you abandon the province. Money is allways usefull, and we dont want to power up AI with advanced troops. Also, abandoned provinces will be rebelious, so even if AI takes them, there is very likely, that they will be having troubles with rebels also. And, if you empire will be smaller, you have better chance to seal alliances.

You situation is hard for one reason. You conquesting plan is not very good.

If you want to conquer any province, look at the religion of inhabitants of this province.
Your religion(muslim) will cause problems to orthodox, catholic and pagans. If this province you want to keep, lower the taxes for couple of years, build mosque and send some alims to convert people to your religion. Build towers and border forts also.If it is shore province, strong fleet must be keept on sea. That raise loyality in the province considerably.
And when loyalty will be far above 100%, and religion in this province will be muslim mainly, that province is yours, and will be less rebelious in future.

Keep the loyalty of the best generals, giving them many titles. I usualy send unloyal generals(with some mercenaries that i not need anymore) at the enemy. They will die, preferably with some enemy troops also:laugh4:

That slows your progres in conquering whole world considerably, but less rebelions, less problems.

[Vladimir]

And read the Civil War thread, you might be heading for one.

[Roark]

The Swedes are in Khazar????

Screenshots would be awesome, dude!

[BrSpiritus]

The Swedes are in Khazar????

Screenshots would be awesome, dude!


In my game the Danish are in Crimea! They are the major power, bigger than England(Me) or even the byzantines. There is a showdown coming and it's not going to be pretty for either of us.

BrSpiritus

[Scurvy]

when turks i just take 8 unitys of horse archers, 4 ghazi's and 4 turkish inf (archer inf etc.) works most times...

[Loucipher]

Scurvy, could you share the tactics you use? I still struggle to have at least a tiny bit off my Muslim games, as I get awfully beaten in almost any battle...

[Peasant Phill]

Aren't there some replays around of a Turkish army that uses horse archers.

It's in the guides forum somewhere ( the 'how to use horse archers' guide or something) . It's actually quite useful when you see those tactics executed instead of reading about them.

[Asmodai]

I have few tactical advices.

Muslim units have better morale (few good valour boosting provinces, morale boosting buildings are cheaper and earlier available) so knowledge, how to break enemy morale, while keeping yours, is vital to any muslim victory.

Muslim armies mainly used cavalry. It is historicaly true, cos infantry played only supporting role in muslim strategy.

Scurvy`s unit combo is very similar to the composition of my muslim armies.

Lou, i can predict Scurvy tactic, looking at player objective in battle (ie deffend/attack), and mix of his troops.

First, infantry is used as hammer. Positioned on high ground, they may withstand any assault (winning with anybody isnt their task) for a while.

Light cav will do all dirty job.

Luring the enemy off position will be their first move. The usual trick is to lure the enemy close to the infantry base. Ghazis, attacking from high ground, and beeing AP has potential to cause horrenduous damage. And then, light cav again back to the track, attacking from behind.

Another light cav trick is to encircle all enemy army. 8 units do this job very well. I usualy group 2 units together, so managing them is easy. Arrow fire from every direction have incredibly devastating effect on morale. Beeing flanked and under fire, units tends to be at least uncertain, so, any attack, that cause casualties send them into wavering state. And ghazis can cause that casualties. Breaking under that circumstances is a mather of time.

Infantry may be used for absorbing enemy attack, as usual (old, good spearwall, with flanking light cav and with swords/axe troops behind).

Few important things about bows and horses.
Bow isnt good against heavily armoured targets. But not all enemy units are armoured, co aim that softy targets. They protect flanks of that armoured cans, so kill or rout the softies, and the flanks of that slow cans are yours.
Enemy archers can be realy pain in your ass. On the other hand, light cav is the best weapon against them. Hit them ASAP with your light cav.

Also, it is important, that ghazis, light shooty cav and spear infantry are all cheap and easy to maintain. Their production cost is relatively low, upkeep cost too so you can beat more advanced army with some cheap units, and if you loose any, dont bother with it.

[Loucipher]

Thanks a lot, brother ~:) I think I am slowly getting the hold of it ~:)
In the course of the nearest weekend I should find some time to test out this tactic against a normal-sized Catholic army. Regardless of whether I win or lose, I'll let you all know. Maybe I'll even post a replay so that all of you can throw your :2cents: in... ~:) After all, it's best to learn in practice...

[acesman]

One tactic that you can use with a fast army (cavalry and fast foot) and an enemy army that is not so fast is to get them to chase your light/missile cavalry around for a while, and then hit them when they are tired with a fresh(er) unit. The combat ability of an exhausted unit drops dramatically. This would probably require that you turn off the time limit for battles. This tactic works even better in the desert, where heavy Catholic armies can fatigue very rapidly.

[rvg]

Kwarazmian Cavalry is an excellent choice for an Almohad player. Sure, V2 AHC is better, but Almos start about as far from Armenia as you can get. V2 Saharans are a superb Light Cav unit, but lack the staying power.
Ghulam Cav for the most part sucks,, so Kwarzies are left as the only logical choice.

They will NEVER even come close to Kats (because you can get v2 Kats fresh off the assembly line + a lucky VnV like Pride or Killer Instinct makes them almost Godlike on the battlefield), but are nonetheless quite powerful.

[acesman]

Kwarazmian Cavalry is an excellent choice for an Almohad player.

According to the charts by Brushface and Frogbeastegg, the Almohads cannot make Kwarazmian cavalry. Their charts have had errors before, is this using MTW/VI?

I think a viable alternative, though it requires a lot of conquest, is getting a province that produces Armenian Heavy Cavalry, or get Moldavia and produce Avar Nobles. Otherwise, the best cavalry that the Almohads can produce are Faris, that lose effectiveness as the years go on, or Ghalums, that are not a good buy for the money.

[Scurvy]

Scurvy, could you share the tactics you use? I still struggle to have at least a tiny bit off my Muslim games, as I get awfully beaten in almost any battle...

i just put 2 gorups of 4 horse archers (normally with my gen) oneon each side, then archers inf (il use janisary inf for this example) in front of the ghazis on hold...

the HA's shoot watever they can and then take care of enemy cav (mainly by outnumbering them, sometimes i move all 8 to one side to take out that flank of cav, then they flank..

then the centre shoots enemy inf, and then ghazis and jan inf charge while the HA's flank, nice and simple :balloon2:

[Roark]

Use Turcoman Horse in pairs as often as possible to draw off dangerous cavalry units, or heavy monsters like Varangians.