MTW: How/Where do you position crossbowmen?

[Vlad The Impala]

Or: "How do I get more out of my crossbows than three volleys?"

I'm playing M:TW (without expansion) and I thought it would be a good idea to bring some crossbowmen (CBM from now on, in my post) along in the early stages of my campaign to deal with Royal Knights and other armored bullies, but I usually can't get them to fire off more than 10-20% of their ammo, in battles that last a decent while even.

I usually place my CBM in front of my spearman so they have a clear shot, but the enemy usually charges after they receive two or three volleys of crossbow-bolts. Since CBM aren't that fast, I withdraw them quite quickly, but then they are positioned behind my melee-units, and stop firing.

If I withdraw the CBM to my flanks, with the idea to line them up again for supporting fire after the melee clashes with the enemy, they are usually attacked by enemy melee (militia or so), so I have to withdraw them. Sending cavalry after the charging militia results in a lot of dead horses, so that's not a good option either.

Any way, at the end of the battle my CBM have hardly fired a shot, which isn't exactly what I have in mind when I bring them to the battlefield. So, what is the most efficient way to use them in battle? Where do you place them, in regard to the rest of my formation/army? Is it worth it to bring them in the first place, or should I rely on militia to deal with heavy cavalry?

Any advice would be highly appreciated!

Cheers,
Vlad

[econ21]

In MTW, crossbowmen can fire over the heads of intervening friendly troops just like archers. It's not intuitive to me (and apparently not true in RTW), but this means you can safely keep them behind infantry. They do fire slowly, but they also hit hard. Arbalesters in particular are a war-winning weapon against the AI.

[Vlad The Impala]

Really? Frogbeastegg's unit guide made me think otherwise, so I always took my CBM from 'Fire At Will' if I withdrew them behind the spearmen, but I'll go for your suggestion next time I bring them to battle. Thanks!

[Braden]

I've not chanced them firing from behind units before either. I know that before the more recent Rome patches Archers would mow down your own troops and I was under the impression the same was with CBM.

Personally, CBM and Arbs are defensive weapons (as in, best if they don't move much) so set up on a slope. It won't take much for you to get sufficient height above your front line for CBM etc to have a clear shot. Just pan your view so you see the front of your lines. If you can see the head and shoulders of your CBM above your spears, that's high enough.

To be honest though, if you employ a good long line of CBM or Arbs in ranks of three, backed up with Archers behind your spears, you're likely to break most charging Cavalry units before they even get to your CBM. IF they do (and don't bother withdrawing them or letting them skirmish) just charge your spears forward those few yards....that'll utterly break the enemy Cavalry.

Once you've done this, get your spears back in line, reform your CBM and repeat.

BTW - Arbs are only one tech level up from CBM so try to get to them ASAP. Their far longer ranged so you'll get much more dead knights. Also, backing up your CBM etc with anti-armour troops (axes, halberds etc) is a very good idea.

[Petsman]

Behind infantry, preferably on higher ground and protect their flanks.

[Vlad The Impala]

But if you attack, you can't always position your units on high ground, you'll more likely be on lower ground. Does this imply that you shouldn't put CBM in an attacking army? (Or that you replace them with archers/HA/Longbowmen?)

[Ciaran]

In MTW, crossbowmen can fire over the heads of intervening friendly troops just like archers. It's not intuitive to me (and apparently not true in RTW), but this means you can safely keep them behind infantry. They do fire slowly, but they also hit hard. Arbalesters in particular are a war-winning weapon against the AI.

Huh? Since when? My crossbows don´t shoot if they´re behind other units (on flat ground, mind you).

Anyways, like all ranged units, crossbows (the unit class, that includes both crossbows and arbalests) are weapons for the early phase of the fight - they take down enemies before they reach your units. Once the melee is joined they lose some of their use on the field if the field is flat. On a slope they still can fire over the fighting units, decimating any reinforcements, even snipe the enemy general.
As far as Fire at Willis concerned, no missile unit will shoot of its own if friendly units might be hit, they will only shoot into a melee if explicitely ordered to do so. The same goes, by the way, for Rome as well, at least up to version 1.2, I don´t know about 1.3/1.5.

Vlad:

But if you attack, you can't always position your units on high ground, you'll more likely be on lower ground. Does this imply that you shouldn't put CBM in an attacking army? (Or that you replace them with archers/HA/Longbowmen?)
It´s right, you can´t change the position in which you start when attacking. But that doesn´t mean you have to rush straight at the enemy. It´s better to maneuvre onto higher ground. And you still can deploy the crossbows in front of your army, especially the pavise version units are excellent for the mission of catching the enemy´s missiles while at the same time inflicting some damage.

[Petsman]

But if you attack, you can't always position your units on high ground, you'll more likely be on lower ground. Does this imply that you shouldn't put CBM in an attacking army? (Or that you replace them with archers/HA/Longbowmen?)



YES ! You answered to yourself!!

[econ21]

Huh? Since when? My crossbows don´t shoot if they´re behind other units (on flat ground, mind you).

Well, I've played a lot of MTW and never observed such an inhibition. I do recall imagining it would be there when I started playing, but quickly disabused myself of the notion. If I have been delusional, I'd welcome confirmation from other vets.

For example, I vividly recall one battle in a PBM on fairly flat terrain between my Almohads and the horde. My arbalesters were shielded by Nubian spears and did great damage to the horde heavy cavalry. Eventually, my Nubians fell but the destruction caused by the arabelesters won me the battle.

The battle is the one in Volhynia discussed here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=435375&postcount=217

Unfortunately the screenshots in the thread are not conclusive proof of my claim that arbalests can fire overhead, but the ground was not particularly uneven.



Does this imply that you shouldn't put CBM in an attacking army?

No - include them; there's no problem bringing crossbowmen on the attack. In that situation, they don't need to stay behind infantry - they can lead out in front. Arbalests in particular have terrific range, well beyond the reaction range of AI cavalry. You can safely shoot down AI monsters like Kataphracts, Varangians, Royal Knights etc without them moving. It becomes a chicken shoot - very cheesy, but useful.

[John XVI]

If you have pavise x-bows&/pavise arbs,you can use them well in an attack. The 1st thing that greets you when attacking,is an arrow shower courtesy of enemy archers. If you have pavise x-bows,you can mow the archers down and you'll still have quite a lot of arrows to harass the knights and other tinmen. I usually keep 1 unit of spears/1 unit of x-bows right behind the x-bows so cavalry will have a nasty surprise if they come charging. X-bows are quite useful in defences,where the A.I has more than 1 full stack vs. your 1 full stack,because they will have missiles left when the reinforcements come charging(especially if they have missile cavalry in the reserve,the x-bows shine in this situation). When melee occurs,if all the enemy melee units are engaged in the heat of battle,you can march your x-bows to the enemies' rear and fire away.

[Peasant Phill]

If you can build x-bows I assume you're in the High period (unless you have vanilla MTW without the patch).

(as mentioned by others) When you position your x-bows in front you can charge a unit through your x-bows to meet the upcoming thread. But since your in high, a decent polearm should be available (billmen, JHI, halbs). The polearms should be used instead of spears as the polearms will charge through the bows a lot faster and don't need te redress their ranks afterwards to be at their full potential.

[Vlad The Impala]

Thanks for the useful answers everybody! Cheers!