Armenians, where are you? WE NEED YOUR HELP!

[Urnamma]

Everyone, we have a serious disjunct happening here. We need people who are willing to go to a local library and learn a few things about ancient armenia, and then help us with this faction.

We need mainly textual work, descriptions, research, etc. As I've said, we will need people who are willing to actually learn something, and read a few books/articles.

I am not going to babysit anyone who wants to be spoonfed websites and other things. If any of us knew things about this faction and where to find them, we wouldn't be asking you guys.

EB could really use your help on this! Btw, in the next release (after the patch), the current count of new units is around 40 already. Help us out, and we can get it to you sooner ;)

We need someone willing to coordinate information about this faction too, and preferably someone who will be responsive and ask/answer questions.

[Foot]

I really would second this call for Armenian scholars of some sort or another, because I've played a couple of times with the Hayasdan faction and I have to say that their position, current units and culture (as much as one can find from EB) are the most interesting I've played with (with the possible exception of Pontus). I'm no historian, nor am I Armenian, but I pledge my assistance with this work. Don't expect anything, my University library (as far as I can tell) is particularly sparse on this subject, but I do have access to the many online journal repositories so perhaps they will leak some information.

I promise that I will search, but whether I will find anything at all is another matter. If worst comes to worst I may invest in this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1403964211/qid=1140997109/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_0_1/203-8309877-3013513)

But I really hope that someone with better access to information and more experiance gives it a go, if they do then I will definately work with them with the descriptions.

Foot

[Urnamma]

Your local public library should be able to request books for you from other libraries. All this requires is some direct action and patience. I'm not asking for people that are uber-scholars with an M.A. or Ph.D. in the subject, just people willing to do grunt work and research and write descriptions to make Hayasdan a colorful faction that has as much information as any other!

[Cheexsta]

I'll see if I can wander around the Uni library and see what's in there. Can't promise anything, but it's worth a try ~:)

[Ambiorix]

I'm going to the library wednesday for a few hours, and I can take a look inside some of the school's databases we have. Are any other factions severely lacking as well?

[Urnamma]

the Sweboz need people to volunteer for writing too, but not as badly. Let's focus on armenia for now :-)

[Ambiorix]

Alrighty, Sweboz would be fun I think, but I'll stick mostly to Armenia on this trip :)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There is definitely a lack of good material on the Hellenistic period for Armenia. I've had trouble finding much of anything in a couple of good (but not superb) American university libraries. I'll also say that some of the books I have run across I was immediately extremely cautious with because of their "rah-rah, go team" nature. Information can be helpful from them, but we'd rather be cautious. Of course the focus on ancient Armenian history is usually on a much earlier time period than what we have (during the 'glory days' of ancient Armenian history), but we really have to try and focus on a period from roughly 350-001 BC. We will have to take some liberties with building descriptions though. But some are done, and a few more will be in the next patch, but we still lack a lot.

One thing we also really need are ethnicities. We could start with about 5-10 of the ones that could possibly help our trait team out. I know nothing about them, but they could be genuine ethnicities, or they could be slight variations of a single ethnicity from different regions, or they could even include the royal family as one, or they could include outside ethnicities if it is even remotely possible a seleukid or some other person could have made their way into the highest ranks of generals. But we get these into the game with effects (royal family has automatic influence boost, outsiders have automatic influence loss, but most other ethnicities just increase or decrease chances at getting other traits), and the faction will definitely benefit a lot.

[Ambiorix]

What universities have you looked at? My older brother's uni has an extremely good cultural anthropology/archaeology program, there's bound to be some good stuff there if I can't find anything myself. It's just as easy as going to my local library too, so it shouldn't be too much trouble.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I just think it's an issue of not a whole lot being written in english on hellenistic armenia. I've found a few pages in a book on the Seleukid empire as the best thing that really deals with the political situation in a way that isn't blatantly partisan. That doesn't matter so much with building descriptions though actually (but it could affect ethnicity traits I supposed). But we do need a general 'base' that might work with any 'mine' or 'farm' building type that then is combined with some uniquely armenian details to make it compelling and accurate for that faction as opposed to others.

[paullus]

What sorts of ethnicities are you looking for? I mean, would Kappadokians, Iberians, Hellenes do? Or are you looking for tribes within traditional Armenian lands? Any of the above?

Is it possible some descriptions from Xenophon's Anabasis could still be used, even though they are early by a century?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Basically, what sorts of men would have been the rulers and top generals of this faction. If it's exclusively without any exceptions at all only Armenians, and if no men other than Armenians would have ever been included in this number even if they started expanding and building an empire, then we just need Armenian ethnicities exclusively. If we can include (rarely, very rarely, extremely rarely, whatever) other non Armenians, then it's ok to have them also. But even if we only did Armenians, we could I suspect include regional variations: men from the bigger cities in one place, vs. more rural men who rose through the ranks of the army, vs. men from the eastern coasts of Armenia vs. whatever.

[monkian]

Armenians, where are you? WE NEED YOUR HELP!

*Turkey looks around sheepishly*

:2thumbsup:

[Ludens]

Have you considered posting in the Monastery? I doubt all Armenians on the board frequent the EB forum.

[Marinakis]

<<<--- is armenian, ill look around in my college's lib for you guys.

It may not be of any help, but what i personally know from my Armenian grandfather is Armenia most likely split from the Hittites. Armenia never had their own national language untill very recently. This is most likely why their history is so hard to come by. Your best bet would be to look at ancient Persian or Greek sources. Greeks and Amrenians did share alot of the same bloodlines throughout history, and still even today.

That's all I personally know, but ill get back to you with any solid information I can find.

[Moros]

if anybody wants to help us with Armenia you can always contact me or perhaps also one of the other EB members or send an e-mail to gert.gregoor@skynet.be

If you like more information or if you think you can help us with something else, you can always look at the help thread.

[PseRamesses]

Hi guys, you might want to check out this thread: http://www.armenica.org/
Good luck!

[PseRamesses]

Armenia becomes a country
7th century B.C. The Armenian prince, Parouyr, allies himself with the Medes and the Chaldeans in the war against Assyria. After the conquest of the Assyrian capital, Nineveh, the victors appoint him as the Armenian king.
512 B.C. Armenia is mentioned officially for the first time, as a country, in cuneiform belonging to the Persian king, Darius I. Armenia is annexed to Persia.
331 B.C. Alexander the Great attacks Persia and defeats Darius III. However, Armenia is never conquered by the Macedonian army. This results in Armenia freeing itself from Persia and, more or less, regains its independence.
322 B.C. The first Armenian Kingdom is founded by King Yervand I.
215 B.C. After almost an entire century of independence, Armenia looses its sovereignty to the Seleucids for a short period of time.

The Artashisian Dynasty, the First Royal Dynasty of Armenia (190 B.C. - 12 B.C.)
190 B.C. King Artashes I proclaims himself as king of Armenia and becomes the founder of the first Armenian royal dynasty, the Artashisian.
159 B.C. King Artavazd I.
149 B.C. King Tigran I.
123 B.C. King Artavazd II.
105 B.C. Armenia looses the ongoing war against the Persians and King Artavazd II, in accordance to the customs of those days, to surrender his son, Tigran, to the enemy. Tigran grows up at the Persian royal court, which characterized his way of thinking and played a major role during his future ruling.
95 B.C. King Artavazd II dies and is succeeded by his son, Tigran II, also known as Tigran the Great. During the reign of Tigran II, Armenia reaches its height in history and becomes a mighty power. The Roman general Lucullus came to be the only real opponent of Tigran the Great.
Tigran the Great creates Great Armenia
70 B.C. The Armenia of Tigran II reaches its height. His empire stretches from the Caspian Sea in the east to the Mediterranean Sea in south-west and Black Sea in the north-west.
69 B.C. A war brakes out between Rome and Armenia. Lucullus engages in his first war against Tigran II.
68 B.C. Lucullus starts his second war against Armenia.
67 B.C. Pompey's war against Armenia.
56 B.C. Tigran the Great dies in 56 B.C. and is succeeded by his son Artavazd III.
53 B.C. Marcus Antonius attacks Armenia. In collusion with Cleopatra he lures the Armenian king into a trap and murders him.
34 B.C. Alexander, son of Marcus Antonius and Cleopatra, is put on the Armenian throne and rules the country during three years under the protection of the Roman army.
31 B.C. Artashes II, son of the murdered King Artavazd III, comes to power and allies himself with the Persian king Farhad.
20 B.C. The Roman emperor, Augustus, removes Artashes II from the Armenian throne and replaces him with his brother, Tigran III.
12 B.C. Tigran IV becomes king of Armenia. He is the last king in the Artashesian dynasty and dies in 2 B.C.
2 B.C. Caius Caesar sends his stepson, Ariobarzane, as king of Armenia.
11 A.D. Ariobarzane I is succeeded by his son Artavazd V.
17 A.D. Germanicus comes to Armenia in order to crown King Artashes III.

[PseRamesses]

Prologue
Before we continue with this new era of Armenian history, remarkable for the reign of Tigran II known as Tigran the Great, it would be as well to recap some of the earliest history of the country. The antiquity of the nation is remarkable and the fact that Armenians still call themselves by the same name as their forefathers did and use the same language. The forebears of presentday Armenians coexisted with civilisations which have long disappeared in the mists of time.
According to the Russian author, Valeri Brussov: “The Armenian people were born at a time when, not only the present European people did not exist, but also when the classic nations of antiquity had just taken their first steps on the stage of world history”.
At the time Rome was being built (9th century B.C.), Hayk and the Armenian people came to their new homeland. During the first empire of Medes and when the Persian Empire gained control over the Middle East, the Armenians fought their first national battles and won a relatively high degree of independence with their own national satraps. Then, as a result of the miraculous emergence of Alexander the Great , Armenia enjoyed its first century of independence and developed close ties with the Hellenic culture and civilisation.
However, this should not be seen as Armenia being given its independence on a silver platter . The independence of Armenia was gained and defended only after bloody struggles with its mighty neighbours, especially the Seleucids and the Arsacids, battles in which the Armenian nation showed that it absolutely deserved its independence. even though the diplomacy of Rome helped them during their struggles.
As Mommsen pointed out, among the governments that were founded in the wake of the disintegration of the Seleucid Empire (e.g. Armenia, Medes Atropatene (Persian Azerbaijan), Sophene, Osroène, etc.), Armenia was the only one with the organisational competence under the Artashisian dynasty to reach a high level of power, development and durability.

Artashisian Dynasty on the Armenian Throne
Artashes I founded the first Armenian royal dynasty which would grow and transform Armenia into one of the major powers in the region. This dynasty, which is known as Artashisian after its founder, ruled Armenia until 1 B.C.
Artashes I managed to defend the country against the Seleucid attacks and since he was also a competent politician, he did everything in his power to weaken the power of the Seleucids. When Timark, the leader of the Medes, revolted against the Seleucids Artashes I sent an army to their assistance which in turn led to the independence of the Medes.
Artashes I waged war against the Albans (Albania included the present-day Daghestan and the surrounding lands and shall not be confused with present-day Albania) and drove them back to the west side of the Kur River. During the war the Albanian price was captured and his father, the Albanian king, sent his daughter Satenik to Artashes in exchange for the release of his son and as a gesture of peace. Artashes fell in love with Satenik and married her. Artashes selected one of his relatives as the king for Iberia (present-day Georgia).
He built a new city by the Araxes River and named it after himself, Artashat (Artaxata), which later became the capital of Armenia.
Hannibal, the Carthaginian leader fled after the defeat against the Romans and took refuge with Antiochos, but was forced to leave when Antiochos was defeated by the Romans. He then searched for asylum at the court of Artashes and received a warm welcome from the Armenian king. Hannibal continued from Armenia to Bithynia (the Greek part of Ismid) and when he felt that the country was threatened by the Romans, he agreed to give himself up to them. He committed suicide in the year 183 B.C.
Plutarchos wrote that it was Hannibal who suggested building the city of Artashat to King Artashes and that he personally supervised the construction of the city. “It is said that when Hannibal fled from the Romans and came to Armenia, he suggested different projects to the Armenian king and taught him several useful things. When he saw the beautiful landscape and nature in Armenia he drew a sketch for the future city. Then he took Artashes to the spot and asked him to personally supervise the building of the city. Thus a big and beautiful city was named after the king, Artashat, and became his capital.”
Rohrbach wrote: “The great Carthaginian leader, who fled from the wrath and the revenge of the Romans and was forced to leave his home country, built this city for an Asian king. He did that as a token of gratitude for the hospitality of the Armenian king and in the hope of finding a future ally against the Roman Empire.”
Artashes I ruled between 190 and 159 B.C. and was succeeded by Artavazd I (159-149 B.C.), Tigran I (149-123 B.C.) and Artavazd II (123-94 B.C.).
Artavazd I was, exactly like his predecessor, a great builder. He was also hotheaded and unyielding. This incited hatred and envy among the aristocratic families of Armenia because the king forced them to respect the general law and order of their country. He was rumoured to have been murdered. Tigran I I, was by contrast a king who loved hunting and arranging big festivals.

Beginning of the end
For ten years, Augustus apparently set aside everything that had to do with the eastern countries. Meanwhile, Artashes II, who was allied to Farhad, the Persian king and defeater of the Romans, continued to rule Armenia. It was around year 20 B.C. when Augustus decided to complete the unfinished business in the east. He was a great politician, but was regarded as a mediocre army commander and therefore he applied the concept of “Display your strength so you do not have to use it” and led an enormous army to Syria. At the same time he ordered Tibére to march with another army from Macedonia to Asia Minor. When the Persian king, Farhad, saw this power display he preferred to accept Augustus’ peace terms.
These terms were as follows. Firstly, more from a sentimental and symbolic point of view, return the Roman flags which the Persians had captured from the Roman legions at the time of defeating Crassus. Secondly the Persians would recognize Roman rule over Armenia. Even in Armenia there were a number of similar power displays. Artashes II was killed by a group which had been bribed with Roman gold and his brother Tigran was brought in from Rome and crowned as Tigran III. In this way Armenia, apparently, an independent country, became once again an ally of Rome. It is from that moment that we remember the famous sentence: “Armenia capta”.
But Augustus’ solution for the eastern question created sharp criticsm in Rome and an overwhelming majority, supported by the general public, demanded the destruction of the Persians by force and the incorporation of Armenia into the Roman Empire. Defending his policy of non-aggression Augustus argued: “A thing is good to conquer only if it is good to keep.”
The policy of this great politician towards Armenia can be ascribed to the following. He knew that Rome could not return Armenia to the Persians. If the Persians owned Armenia, then they would gain total control over the entire Middle East and constitute a permanent threat against the Roman conquests (Asia Minor, Cilicia and Syria). On the other hand, the conquest of Armenia and incorporating it into the Roman Empire would be a very difficult task, since it would heighten the tension between Rome and Persia even more. Also by conquering Armenia, the Roman Empire would constantly be attacked by the warrior tribes in Transcaucasia. Hence Augustus chose the solution of an independent but allied Armenia, an Armenia which should continue as an independent country with its own rule. The interests of Rome did not lie in the inclusion of Armenian within its borders, but in its use as a shield. The only guarantee which Rome needed was that the leader of Armenia should always be someone who was approved by Rome and who would protect the interests of the empire.
Armenians were apparently loyal to their own leader, Artashes II, son of the king killed by Cleopatra and Marcus Antonius. Personally, Augustus had personally nothing against the Artashisian dynasty, which had created Armenia’s greatest kings up to then. But Roman sentiment and way of thinking could not allow someone to sit on the Armenian throne who had ordered the death of every single Roman citizen in Armenia when he heard about the execution of his father.
For this reason Augustus made Tigran, older brother of Artashes II, who had received shelter in Rome and more or less been kept as a backup plan, king.
Augustus’ solution, which was a sign of his creative and flexible thinking, together with the strength of the Roman government should have been enough to create the desired effect i.e. an allied Armenia and a dependent, shield against the Persians. Unfortunately, this did not happen and Armenia, as we will later see, became a headache for the politicians in Rome. This was mainly as a result of the policy which Mark Anthony and Cleopatra had carried out against Armenia. Their treachery had turned the majority of the Armenian princes against Rome for good, and was the reason why they no longer considered the Persians, but the Romans as their principal enemy.

The Last King in the Artashisian Dynasty (20 B.C. to 2 A.D.)
Tigran III ruled between 20 and 12 B.C. before he was succeeded by Tigran IV (12-1 B.C.) The reign of these last kings in the Artashisian dynasty was characterized by various civil wars which weakened Armenia.
The national party, which was supported by the Persians, demanded the creation of a completely independent Armenia, an issue which was against Roman interests and influence. The Romans, on their part, supported a small group of Armenian noble families, who more or less had been bought by Rome and whose leaders had been educated and fostered in Rome. The struggle between these two camps created several conflicts in Armenia, which on a number of occasions resulted in armed revolts against those princes who showed too clearly their submission to Rome.
The Period between the Dynasties of Artashisian and Arshakounian (2 to 53 A.D.)
After the death of Tigran IV, who was the last king in the Artashisian dynasty, Augustus sent one of his stepsons, Caius Caesar, together with an army to Armenia, so that the Medes king, Ariobarzane, who at the time was ruler of Atropatene (present-day Tabriz), would hand over the Armenian throne to him. The Roman historian Tacitus wrote that the Armenians accepted him because of his outstanding beauty and bravery.
However, the coronation of Caius Caesar as the Armenian king did not go as smoothly as the Romans had hoped . The fact that he was appointed as the Armenian king by Rome raised loud protests from the Armenian princes who were against any Roman influence over Armenia. Caius Caesar was forced to fight back the revolt, was badly wounded during one of the battles and died a few months later.
Discontent grew in Armenia, specially since Caius Caesar, who personally was an honest person (according to Ferrero he was like most of the nobility’s children, who were born rich thanks to the plundering of their parents, but had a natural contempt towards bribery and theft) was surrounded by young, inexperienced, corrupt and self-indulgent Romans who milked the public. One of these young men closest to Caius Caesar was Marcus Lollius who was so busy collecting taxes and fees from his subjects that he totally ignored the most important questions regarding the eastern policy. However, Caius Caesar excluded him from his circle when he found out where Lollius’ interests lay.
Ariobarzane I ruled from AD 2 - 11 and was succeeded by his son Ariobarzane II (also known as Artavazd V). But his coronation began once more with disturbances. Dion Cassius wrote: “The next year the Armenians came to blows with each other and did not have anything better to do but fight one another.”
However justified the hostility from the national party towards Rome might have been one must nevertheless confirm that it had also been corrupted by time. The Armenian princes, who were supported by different neighbouring countries, began to forget their original goal and their national feelings faded away. Armenia stepped back into a feudal age, with ruling masters who were arch-enemies of any concept which involved a king and were now only interested in sacrificing everything for their own goals. They hated the idea of obeying a lawful strong ruler and constantly wanted to get rid of the central power in order to be their own masters, something which meant higher status, even if this resulted in obeying a foreign master.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, as this book is currently out of print, and as it's just an excerpt of a chapter and we are trying to get historical information about Armenia here, I'll post it. I think Sherwin-White and Kuhrt would understand our interest and the lack of just about any other serious work done on third century Armenia. This is from Susan Sherwin-White and Amelie Kuhrt's 1993 From Samarkhand to Sardis: A New Approach to the Seleucid Empire. It's a wonderful book and does give the best information I've found on Armenia in this period. Here is the excerpt. Please do not reproduce this elsewhere, but I hope that this spurs more research on things like their buildings and ethnicities and such.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520081838/

Pages 190-197
From Samarkhand to Sardis: A New Approach to the Seleucid Empire
(Susan Sherwin-White and Amelie Kuhrt. Duckworth: London. 1993.)

Armenia in the third century

Antiochus' eastern campaigns are often understated and underplayed, written off as insignificant and ephemeral. In fact, Antiochus was not only consolidating and clarifying relations with dynasts, but possibly also adding new territories to the Seleucid empire. Beginning in 212, Commagene, north of Syria, and north Armenia were brought under direct Seleucid control with the imposition of satraps and the king of south Armenia was made to pay arrears of tribute and contribute to Antiochus Ill's campaign:

When Xerxes was king of the city (polis) of Arsamosata, which lies near the 'Fair Plain', between the Euphrates and Tigris, Antiochus the king, encamping in front of this city, undertook its siege. When Xerxes saw the forces of the king, at first he made himself scarce, but after a time, fearing that if his palace was taken by the enemy, the rest of his realm would be destabilised too, changed his mind and sent a message to Antiochus, proposing talks. The Friends that Antiochus trusted advised him not to let the young man go once he had got hold of him, but, having taken possession of the city, to bestow the realm (dynasteia) on Mithridates, who was the natural son of Antiochus' sister (cf. Schmitt 1964, 28; later, probably adopted by Antiochus). The king paid no attention to these men, but sent for the young man and ended the enmity, remitting the greater part of the money which his father still owed for tribute (phoroi). Having received an immediate payment of three hundred talents from him, and a thousand horses, and a thousand mules with harness, he restored all his (Xerxes') dominions, and by giving his sister Antiochis in marriage (i.e. instead of giving the realm to Antiochis' son) conciliated and attached to himself all the inhabitants of those districts, and won a reputation for having handled affairs in a kingly and magnanimous manner. (Polyb. VIII 23)

Antiochus subsequently had Xerxes poisoned through his sister, for reasons that can only be guessed (John of Antioch F53 (FHGIV p. 557): on the date of this, in the last years of the third century (202/1?), see Schmitt 1964, 28 n. 7). An instructive analogy is provided by Sargon of Assyria's (721-705) attempt to secure the loyalty of the ruler of Bit-Burutash (in Cappadocia), lying along the extreme north-western frontier of the Assyrian empire: first, he installed a pro-Assyrian ruler; secondly, when the initial nominee's son succeeded, Sargon gave him his daughter in marriage together with the territory of a defeated, neighbouring state as dowry; when the king of Bit-Burutash nevertheless rebelled some years later, he was removed from the throne and deported with his retinue while, it has been plausibly argued, Sargon's daughter, together with a staff, continued to administer the region in her father's, hence Assyrian imperial, interest (cf. Hawkins 1982, 419; Postgate 1973, 31).

Although there are many uncertainties about Armenia under Alexander and the Seleucids, Strabo's description of the area (XI 14,1-16) does indicate that Alexander ruled it after the Achaemenids, and the Seleucids after Alexander (XI 15,1); and Appian (Syr. 55) lists Armenia among the possessions of Seleucus I. Alexander did not in person conduct any campaigns in Armenia, which lay remote from his main objectives. We know that after Darius' defeat at Gaugamela, Alexander appointed a Persian, Mithrines, as satrap (Arrian, Anab. Ill 16,5). How peaceful the transfer of power was is uncertain since no account of the takeover has survived. The next datable testimony belongs to 321 by which time Mithrines had been replaced, or succeeded, by a Macedonian (D.S. XVII 64,6). That Alexander sent an expedition of some sort to Armenia (north or south is uncertain) is inferable from Strabo; when describing the resources of Armenia Strabo cites gold-mines at a place called Hyspiritis (location unknown), to which Alexander sent a force of soldiers on reconnaissance (Strabo XI 14,9). The Macedonian 'conquest' of Armenia did arouse contemporary interest in so far as the Thessalian Medius of Larisa, an officer of Alexander, wrote an archaeologia of Armenia, postulating, inter alia, the Thessalian origin of the Armenians and the Thessalian derivation of certain aspects of their culture (e.g. dress, horsemanship, even population: Strabo XI 14,12). Pearson's suggestion (1960, 68-9)) that the point of Medius' stories was political - to represent Armenia as a hellenised area (a difficult task for his time) which Alexander liberated from alien Persian rule — is hard to prove since so little of the work remains. The tenor of Medius' writing, so revealingly that of a Thessalian, may also be explained as part and parcel of a lasting Greek taste for a cultural imperialism that consisted of deriving other civilisations from the Greek and an understandable (and familiar) approach to the assimilation of unfamiliar cultures by seeing similarities (real or imaginary). However, nothing further is learnt about the purpose or results of the Macedonian expedition.

We know very little about Armenia under Seleucid rule before the reign of Antiochus III (see above pp. 15-17). There are precisely three references to Armenia in the third century before this at points, characteristically for the sources, when it was aiding enemies of, or rebels against, the Seleucid kings. Diodorus (XXXI 19,5), drawing on an unnamed source which could be Polybius, described how the Seleucids lost Cappadocia in c. 260, when an Armenian king with a Persian name, Ardoates (perhaps to be corrected to Aroantes, and so identifiable with Aroandes-Orontes: Marquart 1928, 231), gave support to Ariarathes, who killed the Seleucid governor of Cappadocia, expelled the Seleucid forces and founded a dynasty. Memnon (FGrH 434 F14) refers to Ziaelas, son of Nicomedes I of Bithynia, taking refuge with 'the king of the Armenians', who is unnamed, in about the mid-third century. Finally, Polyaenus (IV 17) has a notice about the Armenian king Arsames, identifiable as the father of Xerxes, who showed some freedom of action in c. 229/8 by giving refuge to Antiochus Hierax after the latter had failed to oust the reigning and legitimate king, Seleucus II. It is notable that on the coins of Arsames (Head 1911, 754), which bear his name and title in Greek, he wears the satrapal tiara familiar from the coins of Achaemenid satraps, with a diadem tied around. He does not, in contrast to contemporary kings of Cappadocia, follow Greek fashion and appear bare-headed save for the diadem on coins. The Armenian kings never do this. The inference from this extremely sparse evidence is that Armenia was ruled by local dynasts, who seem to have been perceived by the Seleucids as under their suzerainty.

Strabo gives potentially useful information about a new direction given to Seleucid policy by Antiochus III in Armenia. In his account of historical Armenia, he notes briefly the rule of the Achaemenids, followed by that of Alexander and of the Seleucids. In the context of the Seleucids, he mentions a certain Orontes as 'the last' to rule (XI 14,15). He next relates Antiochus' reorganisation of Armenia, after Orontes' rule, by which the country was divided between two men with Persian names, Artaxias (Artaxerxes) and Zariadris, probably father and son (see below), who, Strabo states, ruled as 'generals' (strategoi, i.e. satraps) until, after Antiochus' defeat by Rome in 190, they asserted their independence, assuming the title basileus (XI 14,5; 14,15). There is no difficulty about Orontes' position since he could have been, as in the context seems right, one of the local kings of the Seleucid system; Strabo does not use the verb basilein (to rule as king) of him, but hyparchein (to govern/to rule as a subordinate). Orontes' absence from Polybius is not significant because we now have merely scattered fragments of Book VIII, where Antiochus' Armenian campaign was described.

Strabo, in his very concise account, does not explain the circumstances of Orontes' replacement. Had he died, or was he removed? But it is notable that Strabo specifically remarked that Orontes claimed descent from Hydarnes (Vidarna), i.e. one of the seven Persian nobles who set Darius the Great on the throne (DB §68 (IV, 84-5); Hdt. Ill 70) and as a result secured for themselves hereditary privileges within the Achaemenid kingdom. Strabo's comment should not, probably, be taken as casual genealogical information of merely antiquarian interest, but rather be set in a political context. It was the practice in the hellenistic period for Iranian kings of territories that were formerly Achaemenid satrapies to trace their descent from old leading Persian families linked by ties of marriage to the Achaemenid dynasty, or to the Seven who had helped establish Darius' usurpation. This is true of the kings of Pontus (Meyer 1879/1968, 31-8) and Cappadocia, and later those of Commagene (Dorner 1975, 26-31). The Cappadocian dynasty, for example, whose partially fictitious genealogy is preserved in Diodorus (XXXI 19,1-2), traced its line back both to the Seven and even to Cyrus the Great. Iranian dynasts in the hellenistic period found that descent from the Achaemenids or one of the six great Persian families, whether fictitious or not, helped to validate their claims to legitimate rule as rightful heirs to the Achaemenids. This, probably, is the significance of Strabo's reference to Orontes' descent from one of Darius' helpers. Indeed the late-third-century Orontes had a formidable array of Achaemenid satraps of Armenia named Orontes to cite. Thus, for example, at the time of Cyrus the Younger's revolt against Artaxerxes II an Orontes was satrap of Armenia; he remained loyal, a service for which he was well rewarded with Artaxerxes' sister, Rhodogyne, as wife (Plutarch Artaxerxes 27; Xenophon, Anab. II 4,8; III 4,13). In 331 an Orontes is again named as satrap of Armenia (Arrian Anab. Ill 8,5), commanding the large Armenian forces and cavalry at Gaugamela. Then, in 316, an Orontes emerges again as satrap of Armenia, writing in Aramaic to the Macedonian satrap of Persis, Peucestas (D.S. XIX 23,3; on the problems of sorting out the second and third generation of Orontes in the fourth century see Judeich 1892, 221-5; Osborne 1975, 291ff.; Hornblower 1982, 176ff. and nn. 48, 58). The importance of this marriage link of the Orontid family with the Achaemenids in hellenistic dynastic politics is reflected in the appearence of Orontes, husband of Rhodogyne, among the ancestors of Antiochus IV of Commagene (AD 38-72) at Antiochus' monumental tomb at Nemrud-Dagh (Dorner 1975, 26-31).

Manandian (1965: to be used with caution, cf. J. and L. Robert 1952, 184-5) saw the possibility of identifying our late-third-century Iranian Orontes as 'the last to rule' of the same family dynasty and suggested, as is also possible, the continuing rule of the Orontids in the earlier third century (cf. above). We could have here an instance, not unparalleled, of the survival of the quasi-dynastic rule of the old Achamenid satraps (and perhaps, therefore, of an ancient power structure). If so, this gives a more complex background to Antiochus' choice of a different Persian family, whom he apparently kept as satraps, perhaps out of tact to supporters of Orontes and any family, as well as a determination to exercise a more direct control over them. Artaxias (Greek Artaxerxes), one of Antiochus' two new satraps, is named on three 'boundary' stones, inscribed in Aramaic, which were discovered near Lake Sevan in the far north of Armenia (Frye 1962, 277ff. and nn. 35, 37; Dupont-Sommer 1946-8; Donner/Rollig 1973-9, nos. 274-5), mentioning Artaxias as king and son of Zariatr (Greek Zariadries), dated to the reign of Artaxias I (c. 190-164). Antiochus gave Artaxias north Armenia (Great Armenia) and Zariadris southern Armenia, specifically Sophene (Strabo XI 14,5; 14,15), as their respective satrapies, so that Zariadries succeeded to the kingdom of Xerxes and Artaxias to that of Orontes.

It is very probably to the reign of Antiochus III, possibly before the appointment of Artaxias and Zariadris, that a fascinating group of Greek rock inscriptions belongs, which have, with the exception of Manandian, been totally neglected by historians (Plates 23-6). In 1914 three Greek inscriptions were found carved on a rock face of the southern slope of a hill at Armavir (modern Echmiadzin), which lies north-west of Mount Ararat in the fertile plain of the river Araxes, within the Soviet Republic of Armenia. In 1927, four more inscriptions, also in Greek, were found at the same site at a distance of about twelve metres from the first series to be found. They were published in 1942, and again in 1946, in Russian and Armenian by the Russian and Armenian scholars, Boltunova and Manandian. They did not become accessible in the west until in 1952 the Roberts gave the texts and brief but valuable comments in the Bulletin Epigraphique (181-7). In 1953, Trever republished the texts in his Russian book on Armenian archaeology (pp. 134-7; 142-7). Since then, save for Manandian's work, used by Burney and Lang (1971, 191-2), they have not been utilised by hellenistic historians, no doubt largely because of their comparative inaccessibility and partly because of the time of their publication — after hellenistic scholars like Rostovtzeff, Bengtson and Bickerman had completed their major works on hellenistic history. The inscriptions can be dated approximately to 200, on the basis of the lettering (cf. J. and L. Robert 1952, 184-5). They are all inscribed in similar, rather irregular cursive lettering (cf. Plates 23-6) of a character paralleled by other examples of cursive style among Seleucid inscriptions of the late third and early second century (for example, the Eriza copy of the edict of Antiochus III (below p. 205) and early-second-century manumissions from Susa).

The inscriptions comprise: (1) a fragmentary text referring to Hesiod and to his brother Perses (Plate 23); (2) a compilation of extracts of dramatic verses, including a quotation from Euripides' Hippolytus (Habicht 1953), either a collection of copy-book sentences learnt by heart in elementary education, or else a gnomic anthology, illustrating a particular moral theme; (3) a list, perhaps an inventory, of uncertain significance (Plate 24). These inscriptions were separated (by a distance of about 12 metres) from nos 4-7; (4) The beginning of a letter from a King of the Armadoeiroi (unknown), named Mithras, to 'Orontes king', expressing in conventional language greetings, wishes for the king's good health and that of his offspring (eggona), and probably for his continuing prosperity in ruling his basileia, which is mentioned (Plate 25); (5) a list of the months of a calendar (Plate 26); (6) a partially preserved letter addressed to 'the Hellene Noumenios', perhaps from a king who is mentioned but not named in the surviving text; (7) an inscription, partially preserved, in which Noumenios reports to a female, described by the epithet philadelphos (brother lover), familiar in hellenistic royal terminology, apparently telling bad news in poetic language (?the death of Orontes). What are the meaning and functions of this strange medley of inscriptions?

There can be little certainty. Nos. 1-3, which are physically one group, may be functionally similar, i.e. school texts, since the practice, apparently followed here, of grouping extracts by literary genre, epic verse (no. 1) and dramatic (no. 2), is paralleled in surviving anthologies; lists of words (no. 3?) also survive as school texts, though usually the educational point of the list is clear. Nos. 4-7 seem to be of a different character. Nos. 4, 6 and 7, appear to be public documents -official correspondence, in Greek, of local rulers and an official, who was Greek. The calendar, no. 5, is not necessarily out of place since the order of the months establishes that it was that of the official Seleucid calendar, which any place within the Seleucid sphere would need to be familiar with and use. Letter no. 4 is particularly interesting. Orontes has the title basileus; his territory (like that of other Seleucid local rulers) is a basileia; he has offspring - a royal succession, for whose health it was traditional to express concern in the royal correspond¬ence of the hellenistic period. A ruler named Mithras is not otherwise known. Noumenios, the name of a later Seleucid satrap in the reign of Antiochus IV (but it is a common Greek name), could be either a Seleucid official, or a high-ranking official of Orontes. That the king Orontes of the Armavir inscription is to be identified as the Seleucid ruler of that name is very hard to disbelieve. If this second group of inscriptions constitutes a little group of authentic official documents, then it would appear from no. 4 that Orontes did have successors had Antiochus III wished to continue his dynasty. In fact, Antiochus chose to replace the existing dynasties in both north and south Armenia.

Apart from these Greek inscriptions, there is an almost total dearth of Greek material from hellenistic Greater Armenia. The comparative scarcity of excavated sites from the late fourth to the second century in both Turkish and Soviet Armenia, the lack of casual or 'illicit' finds from this period, plus the destruction by the early Armenian Church of pagan remains, means that the archaeological background is a virtual vacuum for the third to second centuries. The sole exception is the site of Garni, a fortified city, \svhich has been systematically excavated in the hills, 18 miles east of Erevan. It was used as a residence by the kings of North Armenia from the second century (Burney/Lang 1971, 250-1; Lang 1980, 144). The long-accepted view, based primarily upon the literary evidence, that public philhellenism and patronage of Greek culture was first manifested in the first century by the king Tigranes the Great (95-55), requires some modification now (cf. J. and L. Robert 1952, 184-5). While it might be conceivable that these inscriptions were to do with a Seleucid colony, of which otherwise there is no attestation, for example the school texts nos. 1 and 2, this guess does not fit well with nos. 4, 6 and 7. That the decision to memorialise in Greek some texts of official letters on the pattern of the Seleucid kings emanated from Orontes, or from high officials at court, seems probable. This suggestion is supported by several un-Greek characteristics of the inscriptions, apart from misspellings; for example, the choice of rock for the display of official documents is not Greek but a widespread practice of eastern kingdoms; the reference to Noumenios as 'the Greek' would not occur in Greek hellenistic royal correspondence, where officials are described simply by personal name and others by name, patronymic and city ethnic. This usage can be taken to indicate that the king of no. 6, possibly also Orontes, was not Greek, and furthermore, not surprisingly, that Greeks in this area were to be remarked upon. We know from their coins that in Sophene the kings Arsames and Xerxes were using Greek legends by the last quarter of the third century. There is no reason to doubt that communication existed between south and north Armenia and between the latter and the Seleucid empire; indeed the fact that the cursive Greek script used to inscribe the Armavir inscriptions mirrors the contemporary cursive used in Seleucid inscriptions of the period indirectly points to this communication. Furthermore, a little later, Artaxias I, Orontes' successor, was to coin in silver, with Greek legends naming him King Artaxias the Great (Seyrig 1955; Bedoukian 1968). He may, in his public use of Greek, have followed the example of Orontes, who seems to have made some use of Greek for the publication of at least some documents, while the school texts may reflect the teaching and learning of Greek, probably for his court or a section of it. How much earlier this goes back is unknown. Needless to say, it is important not to exaggerate, but to remember the continuing use of Aramaic, as Artaxias' inscriptions show; no doubt this remained the usual language for local government in this area during the hellenistic period.

[Foot]

Concerning the Ethnicities for Hayasdan.

The line of the Orontid dynasty has given in D. M. Lang, Armenia: Cradle of Civilisation 3rd ed., George Allen & Unwin, 1980, pp. 121 (quoted from C. L. Toumanoff, Studies in Christian Caucasian History, Georgetown, 1963, pp. 293-4)

A. Satraps of Armenia
Orontes I, 401-344 BC
EDIT: (Codomannus, 344-336 BC; became Darius III in 336 BC, last of the Achaemenid Kings)
Orontes II, 336-331 BC

B. Kings of Armenia [Orontid Dynasty given Kingship during end reign of Orontes II]
Orontes II (continued), 331 BC [died at Gaugamela or lived to 325 BC - conflicting sources]
Mithranes, 331-317 BC [son of Orontes II who defected to the Macedonians and after the defeat of the Persians was placed as King of Armenia]
Orontes III, 317-260 BC
Samus, 260 BC
Arsames, 260-228 BC
Xerxes, 228-212 BC
Abdissares, c. 212 BC
Orontes IV, 212-200 BC

C. Kings of Sophene [Orontid dynasty ended in Armenia after overthrowing by local dynast Artaxias]
Zariadris (Zareh), Strategos 200 BC; King 190 BC and after.
Mithrobuzanes I, a contemporary of Artaxias I of Greater Armenia, around 170 BC
Orontes V, about 95 BC; annexation of Sophene by Tigranes II of Greater Armenia.

[the points in square brackets are mine]

A possible choice for ethnicity could represent the Orontid dynasty being slowly overcome by the local Armenian nakharars (landed gentry) to eventually give the semblance of beginning of the Artaxias dynasty. This could be represented as the starting family tree being Orontid but any generals from marriages or man of the hour adoptions would be Nakharars in ethnicity. Thus only the male members of the Orontid dynasty would be able to pass on the Orontid ethnicity.

The Orontid dynasty, descended as it is from a strong Persian background (Mithranes who betrayed his father, Orontes II, had still been a governer in Syria) would thus have a stronger persian influence, while the Armenian nakharars would be more hellenised.

Although not strictly speaking historically accurate, it would perhaps be an interesting representation of the waning of Orontid power and would be quite unique in EB world (though somewhat similar to the Roman version).

The Armenian Nakharars could be further divided between two tribal ethnicities. Although a 300 years before our time, Xenophon gives an account of how Cyrus pacified Armenia and acted as an mediator between the people of Armenia Proper, living in fertile valleys and arable lands, and the followers of Haldi, refugees in the mountains and descendants of the Urartians. Cyrus persuades the Armenian King, Tigranes I, to invite the people of Haldi to cultivate the vacant fields and in return the people of Haldi allow the Armenians to pasture their cattle in the hill country.

This difference may still have existed during our time, at the very least there would be a difference between the Nakharars of the valleys and the nakharars of the mountains. The nakharars from the valley could have better farming capabilites, while those from the mountains may have better horse-rearing capablities (+1 to command cavalry).

I have some more reading to do, but what do you think.

I also may be able to write descriptions for the different governer buildings soon (those upgrading size of city).

Foot

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Keep in mind that for some factions we have a *lot* of different ethnicities. For KH for example - we will have in future builds a whole lot of different places your generals can come from - though early on they will be primarily kids of spartans and such.

Seleukids will have a lot too, and ptolemies. Epeiros has a number too. We can get pretty detailed - as long as the whole system works together and is reasonable. The royal families might get influence boosts, to help them keep power and the title of king, but if some other general (maybe who starts out with an influence penalty) rises to power and overcomes those deficiencies, then he could start a new dynasty with his ethnicity or other type of special description.

[Foot]

One important thing, though you are probably already aware of this, is that the Armenian language was not a written language at all, the official written language was Iranian written in Aramaic or Greek. Out of interest, only, what is the language you use for the names of the Hayasdan buildings and units?

EDIT: In addition Orontes I was married into the Persian Royal Family, but he himself was of royal blood from Bactrian so hardly had the loyalties of a pure persian. Not sure if its important but it is rather interesting.

EDIT 2: Ethnicities cont'd.

There is name of one Macedonion in a high position in Armenia. Neoptolemus was placed as a Macedonion supported usurper to the throne against Mithranes, son of Orontes II, in 323 but it only lasted a year. This suggests that their must have been at least some support for high-leveled greeks in Armenian society.

EDIT 3: The Followers of Haldi were still mentioned up until AD 1404 (though M. Chahin gives the slightly different spelling of Khaldians but from the same Xenophon source.) I would say that the Khaldi or Haldi should definately be an ethnicity. They are quite distinct from the Hay.

Foot

[Foot]

Two traits for the Armenian Conquerer. I just want to write these down in fear of forgetting them.

Basileis Basileon: Tigranes the Great, after expanding his kingdom into Parthia, took over the title of 'King of Kings' from the Parthians. This title could be given to the Hayasdan faction leader if the player controls Phraaspa, Ekbatana, Zadrakata, Apameia and Hekarompylos.

Theos: Tigranes the Great, after expanding his kingdom into Syria and Mesopotamia, took over the title of 'God', 'the Divine' from the Seleucids. This title could be given to the Hayasdan faction leader if the player controls Arbela, Karkathiokerta, Edessa, Tarsos, Antiocheia, Palmyra, Damaskos, Sidon.

Benefits from these would be influence.

EDIT: Just remembered, the Armenians were (and probably still are) renowned for their hospitality, perhaps make them more likely to get the 'Welcoming of Strangers' trait (don't know if that is the exact name).

Foot

[Foot]

As promised, the governor's buildings for Hayasdan.

{governors_house_romans_scipii} Marzpeti Tun
{governors_house_romans_scipii_desc}
Governor's House\n\nThe Governor of this region makes his home in the largest military and commercial town in his jurisdiction . He answers directly to the ruler of the province, be he a Satrap, Prince or even the King himself. His responsibilities range from the collecting of taxes and produce from the neighbouring villages to the raising of troops for the King's armies. Many of the Armenian houses are built like fortresses and stocked with plenty of provisions; the Governor's house is no exception and from it he entertains the many diginitries and village headmen that he needs to do business with.
{governors_house_romans_scipii_desc_short}
The house of the regional Governor and representative of the Satrap.

{governors_villa_romans_scipii} Aznuakani Tun
{governors_villa_romans_scipii_desc}
Noble's House\n\nAs the town grows, so must the house of the Governor. Under his administration, the Governor has turned his region into an important military and commercial centre - a jewel in the Satrap's crown - and he has been rewarded justly. His lands are many now and he has joined the ranks of the Nakharars (landed gentry). From his growing wealth he has further extended his home to include larger areas for the entertaining of guests and greater storage facilities for the surplus supply of food and wines from his many fields.
{governors_villa_romans_scipii_desc_short}
The house of the Nakharar of this region and representative of the Satrap.

{governors_palace_romans_scipii} Hrashali Palad
{governors_palace_romans_scipii_desc}
Magnate's Palace\n\nThis once large town has increased under the governance of its ruling Nakharar to become a city of no small size. The military might and commercial strength of this region has made sure that its Governor has become truly favoured by the ruling Satrap. The Governor's estates now extand far and wide and from this increased wealth he has built himself a palace fit enough to entertain the Satrap himself, and he often does. The city is now the crown in the Satrap's realm and he spends much of his time there, entertained by his most faithful and powerful servant.
{governors_palace_romans_scipii_desc_short}
The palace of the Magnate of this region and representative of the Satrap.

{proconsuls_palace_romans_scipii} Hazarapetut Palad
{proconsuls_palace_romans_scipii_desc}
Commander's Palace\n\nHow wonderous this city has now become. Under the attention of its governor the city and its surrounding lands are now the envy of many people. The Governor has risen to be one of the most powerful Nakharars (landed gentry) in the entire Kingdom of Armenia, and his favour from the Satrap is so great he has been given command of the provinces army.So great is the city's power that it has attracted the attentions of the Royal House of Armenia. With such attention comes great rewards and not only is the Satrap of the province rewarded but the Governor as well. His estates bring so much wealth that he has extended his palace to be worthy of a continued stay from a Prince or even the King himself.
{proconsuls_palace_romans_scipii_desc_short}
The palace of the Commander of this region and representative of the Satrap

{imperial_palace_romans_scipii} Nahapeti Palad
{imperial_palace_romans_scipii_desc}
Prince's Palace\n\nOh great and beautiful city! Your rise to such power has been a long one, but now your are famed throughout the known world. Poets write great things about this city and its Governor and all know its name. Its commercial strength has become such that it is home to the rarest items for the Far East and merchants visit it from far and wide simply to gaze at its marvels. Its military might means that the most heavily armoured and armed troops are trained and housed in its many garrisons and the forces of this city are called upon whenever the King rides to battle. The Governor as similarly risen in power and is now personal friend to the King and has the privilege of aiding the King to mount and dismount. The Governor's Palace now has been chosen as a residence for a Prince of Royal Armenian blood, and the Governor acts as the keeper of the household.
{imperial_palace_romans_scipii_desc_short}
The palace of the Prince and home to the Governor of this region.

Foot

[Arth-Gwyr]

Hi there

I've just registered after reading this thread in order to offer my help. I am Armenian, from Armenia, so I think it could be useful. I assume you wouldn't find so much info in English, so just tell me your needs, and I'll try to find and translate into English.


512 B.C. Armenia is mentioned officially for the first time, as a country, in cuneiform belonging to the Persian king, Darius I. Armenia is annexed to Persia.

Actually this cuneiform is bilingual, Persian and Assyrian, and Persian word "Armenia" corresponds to the Assyrian "Urartu". So this is just first time when Armenia is refered to as Armenia. Assyrians were refering to the same country as "Urartu", which is Assyrian form of "Ararat" and was known for them as kingdom with King Arame I from 9th century BC. But anyway kings of this country were referring to it as to "Biayna" [bee-eye-nah]. Armenians refer to themselves as Hye (pronounced "hi") and to Armenia as Hayastan (modern form) or Hayq (ancient form).

[Arth-Gwyr]

So, some details, that might be interesting as an introduction
Armenians refer to themselves as Hye (pronounced "hi") and to Armenia as Hayastan (modern form) or Hayq (ancient form). They belong to Anatolian type of Europoid race and speak Armenian language, which by itself forms separate group in Indo-European family. Armenian is among first languages split from Indo-European protolanguage. Before 19th century AD they used ancient Armenian (called grabar, which literary means "written word") as literary language. Modern Armenian alphabet is also unique, it was invented by monk-scholar Mashtots in 405 AD century. Armenia adopted Christianity as state religion in 301 during the days of King Trdat of Arshakuni (Arshakides) Dinasty. During that 1st century of Christianisation Greek was used as primary written official as well as sacred language. At that time specially designated interpreters were synchronously translating official or ritual texts into Armenian, in order for those to be understood by people. Before the Christian era Greek was also used as official written language, and possibly Armenian was used as the sacred and spoken language, as Armenian pagan hymns and poems were known to historians. After the invention of Armenian alphabet in 405 all the official papers, as well as sacred books were translated to Armenian language.
Armenians are believed to share same origin with Hetts and Hurrits and to be relative to Persians.
There are several known Dinasties that ruled Armenia, among them: Yervanduni, Artashesyan, Arshakuni, Bagratuni and Rubenyats. First 2 and last one are originally ethnic Armenian, Arshakunis are of Parthian descent, Bagratunis are believed to be of Jewish descent. Armenian noble houses include mostly ethnic Armenians, namely houses of Angeghea, Bznuni, Rshtuni, Artzruni, Gnuni, Vahevuni, Mandakuni, Marzpetuni, Mehnuni, Syuni, Khorkhoruni etc. There were also some noble houses of non-Armenian descent, like already named Arshakunis, Bagratunis, Mamikoneans of Chinese origin. Anyway, Armenians have a specific quality to quickly assimilate other ethnic groups which may appear to be incorporated in their society at some point, but to keep its own identity throughout many generations in alien environment, so even it is sometimes hard to tell exactly the origin of some noble houses. Nobles in general are called Azat (free) or Aznvakan. Leaders of Armenian noble houses are called Nakharars, there were Nakharars of different rank, and each Nakharar of highest rank had some special title or officies, like Tagadir Aspet (coronator), Sparapet (Commander-in-Chief), Mardpet Hayr (Chamberlain) etc. King was called Arqa or Tagavor.
Armenian Pagan pantheon in different ages included Khaldi (supreme god), Hayk (father of gods), Vahagn (God of power, war, eliminator of dragons etc.), Anahit (mother of gods), Astghik (goddess of beauty), Tyukhe (goddess of luck and fortune) as well as some gods of non-Armenian origin, as Aramazd (Ahuramazda) and Mihr. In Hellenistic era pantheon was brought into compliance with Greek pantheon in a such way, where Armenian gods were bearing mostly same functions and qualities as Greek gods. In areas close to the Persian borders paganism was also influenced by Persian religion and included elements of fire-worship.
Before the Christian era Armenians were using mostly Armenian and Persian names. Armenian masculine names include: Ara, Aram, Artak, Aramaneak, Artavazd, Hayk, Armen, Argishti, Vardan, Vahagn, Vahan, Vasak, Vache, Vachagan, Gor, Rusa, Gnel, Paruyr, Yervand etc. Popular Persian names were: Tigran, Karen, Zareh, Artashes, Arshak, Trdat, Khosrov etc. Feminine names: Anahit, Astghik, Ani, Armenuhi, Varduhi, Parandzem, Nane, Nune, Nvard, Zvard, Armine, Satenik, Narine, Zarine, Zaruhi, Tatev, Taguhi etc. Christianisation also added many Jewish and Greek names calqued into Armenian, such as: Davit, Hakob, Samvel, Sahak, Eghishe, Movses, Honhannes, Grigor, Gevorg, Ruben, Hovsep, Petros, Simon and many others, as well as some names, that had Christian religious content, like: Avetis (Gospel), Harutyun (Ressurection), Hambardzum (Ascension), Astvatzatur (Given by God) etc.

[VandalCarthage]

Basileis Basileon: Tigranes the Great, after expanding his kingdom into Parthia, took over the title of 'King of Kings' from the Parthians. This title could be given to the Hayasdan faction leader if the player controls Phraaspa, Ekbatana, Zadrakata, Apameia and Hekarompylos.

Theos: Tigranes the Great, after expanding his kingdom into Syria and Mesopotamia, took over the title of 'God', 'the Divine' from the Seleucids. This title could be given to the Hayasdan faction leader if the player controls Arbela, Karkathiokerta, Edessa, Tarsos, Antiocheia, Palmyra, Damaskos, Sidon.

The problem with these is that Tigranes actually represents a later dynasty, and his level of genuine Philhellenism had no comparable parallel in Armenian history.

[Foot]

The problem with these is that Tigranes actually represents a later dynasty, and his level of genuine Philhellenism had no comparable parallel in Armenian history.

conceptually, I don't believe that to be a problem. True, the names themselves are in greek but I don't think these titles represent Tigranes' Philhellenism. His push into Iran was quite likely prompted by his previous imprisonment by the Parthians after his dad had lost a great battle against them and that in return for his freedom he had to give his captors 70 valleys in Atropatene. He slaughtered the Parthians in battle, destroyed nineveh and Arbela.

As for his move into Syria, that was prompted by the collapse of the Selecuid Empire and the rise of much disorder in the region. The kingdoms of Syria actually bequeathed their kingdoms to him.

As for the titles, the kings of Armenia, due to the lack of a written language, used iranian and greek as the written language. Consider, for example, that King Arsames (260-228 BC) minted coins with the inscription 'Basileos Arsames'. It doesnt seem far-fetched in my opinion that the Armenian Kings throughout the time-period we are dealing with would have stolen titles from surrounding nations if they believe they deserved it.

Foot

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Foot - the core buildings look good. Could we use the word "Hayasdan" instead of "Armenia" in them though? And I guess the adjective is "Hai" for "Armenian". I personally like the descriptions just a tad longer, but core levels are sort of hard to do I realize. Would you like to try another complex? I like your use, in some of them, of the proper Armenian names, and then providing translations in parentheses.

Looking forward to your continued help on this! :grin: :2thumbsup:

[Dooz]

Just a quick little thing; Tigranes is actually just Tigran in Armenian, and that's how he is referred to in actual Armenian History textbooks back from highschool and all. I'm not quite sure where Tigranes came from. Possibly the hellenized way of saying it?

[Foot]

Foot - the core buildings look good. Could we use the word "Hayasdan" instead of "Armenia" in them though? And I guess the adjective is "Hai" for "Armenian". I personally like the descriptions just a tad longer, but core levels are sort of hard to do I realize. Would you like to try another complex? I like your use, in some of them, of the proper Armenian names, and then providing translations in parentheses.

Looking forward to your continued help on this! :grin: :2thumbsup:

Got it captain. :grin:

Foot

[Foot]

Alright, here's something for your judgement. I was working on the Armenian walls (though I've noticed that some have been added for the 0.73 release which is nice to see) and I sort of came up with these descriptions because there really isn't much you can say about walls. I guess you could talk about construction, but most of that (particularly with the wooden ones) would be conjecture (at least on my part). So I kind of moved away from the objective, descriptive kind of thing and made the whole thing a lot more personal. I imagined it as a directive or advice from the office of the king, commenting in some letter to the governor of a settlement on how best to govern the settlement. Personally I would find this a much more engaging way to look at descriptions and would emphasise the role-playing nature of the traits and ancillaries work. You could also add a paragraph after the intial 'role-playing' one giving a more historical perspective on the building (just as you have done with the units).

Anyway, I realise that much of the description work has been finished already and to go over them and re do them (because I think there should definately be a consensus on how to do descriptions) would take a lot of time and effort, which might be better spent on porting to 1.5 or getting the next build out (can't wait!!). Regardless, I'll post the 'role-playing' style descriptions for your judgment.

{wooden_pallisade_romans_scipii} Tsankabad
{wooden_pallisade_romans_scipii_desc}
Wooden Pallisade\n\nOur neighbours are envious of the wealth stored in our towns and cities and we should not underestimate them to attempt to take what is not theirs. The Tsankabad offers minimal protection but it is protection nonetheless. Place your archers behind the walls and let the enemy realise the folly of their attack with arrow after arrow. If the enemy are only raiders they will flee, but be wary of a more determined attacker and prepare your spears for the Tsankabad and your arrows will not hold them off for long.\n\nA Tsankabad will not last for long, invest in better walls if you wish for your settlement to continue in its prosperity.
{wooden_pallisade_romans_scipii_desc_short}
A basic wooden pallisade. Not much protection but better than nothing!

{wooden_wall_romans_scipii} Payte Amrotz
{wooden_wall_romans_scipii_desc}
Wooden Walls\n\nAs your settlement expands so should your walls. The enemy are watching, and they see the wealth that our land brings and they wish it for themselves. You must not allow them to accomplish their plans; hold them off in the fields, but if they manage to reach your town then you will praise Anahit for the walls you have built. Place archers behind them and rain death upon all who come too near. The enemy with little heart will flee at the sight of your wall, but those who stay shall fight to death so prepare the spear and shield for a fight will be fought at the walls.\n\nThe Payte Amrotz will serve you for awhile, but remember that while we grow richer and stronger so do our enemies. Stone from our mountains will serve as a better wall then our trees.
{wooden_wall_romans_scipii_desc_short}
A wooden wall that gives better protection than a simple pallisade.

{stone_wall_romans_scipii} Kare Amrotz
{stone_wall_romans_scipii_desc}
Stone Wall\n\nOur homeland is surrounded by mountains, and they protect the borders of Hayasdan well. The stone walls of your settlement will stand like these mountains, strong and in defiance of our enemies. But just as our kingdom has risen to power, making new enemies as it stretches it arms and armies further abroad, so your city will make enemies out of even those you thought friends. The kingdoms that surround us are great artificers of war machines and they will attempt to use them against your Kare Amrotz - do not let them. Burn their constructions to the ground and send them fleeing from the stone that protects you.\n\nThe Kare Amrotz, while not the greatest wall that can be built, should suffice for now, but ready more stone lest you find yourself against a truly determined foe.
{stone_wall_romans_scipii_desc_short}
A stone wall offers much improved protection, but even it can be destroyed.

Comments anyone? Is this a possible way to go (its more fun to write I must admit) or is it moving too far away from the historical perspective you want to keep?

Foot

[Equilibrium]

I like them, but I doubt our "leading guys" will prefer this approach above the historical...Anyway keep it up, we really need armenian stuff.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Krusader started trying to make some new descriptions for Armenia for us in January, but couldn't find much to make them more unique to the faction. He did work on walls as one of them. I think, though, that a combination of his and Foot's descriptions would make for a very good final description. I will post the ones he wrote here. Could you insert some of your more "faction-specific" statements into these Foot? They give more flavor to the faction descriptions. I thought these descriptions of his had made it into the current build, or I would have said something about them here. But I think this is a good thing to work on here. You can see his other descriptions below also: one for roads, farms, and the small trading port.


Walls:

Pallisade
A pallisade is the first step towards defending your towns. It will not hold out any attackers for a prolonged time, as the pallisade can easily be breached. But at least they provide a temporary obstacle to the enemy, who might have to invest some time in trying to take over the town, giving the local militia time to organize a defence or time for any nearby army to quickly come to the aid. Any siege weaponry will easily breach the pallisade, and if you plan to hold this town forever, better defences must be built.

Wooden Walls
Wooden Walls are a step up from a mere pallisade, but most siege weaponry will still be able to breach it without difficulty. The walls have been strengthened somewhat and also heightened to make it harder for enemy archers to fire volleys over the walls and into Hay soldiers behind them. Wooden Walls are at least better than a pallisade, but will not hold any serious invader at bay for long. If you wish to remain the ruler of this town and region, better defences made of stone is needed.

Stone Walls
Stone Walls are more proper defenceworks for any city. Being made of stone, the walls are of course much stronger than the weak wooden walls, and better stronger towers are also built and the walls are much further heightened, allowing your soldiers to stand on the walls, to repel any besiegers who dare assault them or fireing volley after volley of arrows onto approaching enemies below. Basic siege weaponry is tedious to use against these walls, but more advanced siege weaponry again should not have trouble breaching these walls and razing your towers. Even if they are strong, stronger stone walls have been built outside our kingdom, as merchants bring tales of the Hellenic lands around us. If the Hellenes can build better stone walls, so can we.

Large Stone Walls
Inspired by our neighbours, stronger and larger stone walls have been constructed here. With new techniques our city can be defended with more force, as even advanced siege weaponry will have no easy task assaulting these walls, although you should not underestimate the enemy's siege weapons because of this. The walls have been heightened and because of this the enemy infantry will be unable to use ladders, giving you another advantage. The towers have also been strengthened making it harder to pull them down as well. The enemy might now be forced to concentrate more of their siege firepower on fewer points, which means fewer breaches in the walls and which makes it easier for your soldiers to defend this city.

Epic Walls
The strongest and most formidable walls in the world are built here. Any attacker, even if he outnumbers the garrison will know that investing this city and these defences will hurt his army. Any foe will be forced to spend more precious ammunition for his catapults if he wishes to breach the walls without sapping, and with firther strengthened walls, your soldiers will have a better advantage at fighting the enemy should they send frail siege towers at you. Your subjects will also sleep more easily knowing their homes are well protected.

-----------------------------------
Port_Buildings (trade port):

"Port" Small Trading Port
The sea is strange to us, but important. Ships ply the waters where there are ports and with them goods for trade, which can be sent further inland with caravans. Even the least significant of provinces have some form of docks for trade, albeit size does matter, so trade is hampered by a few docks to unload cargo from.

"Shipwright" Larger Trading Port
"Dockyard" Enormous Trading Port

-----------------------------------
Roads:

Roads:
Where people travel frequently, roads emerge. These roads are just drit paths, but are better to travel on and will make it easier and faster for Hay armies to march and meet any invader in the field. The roads are not just used by your soldiers either, but merchants also use the roads to move and sell their goods at a faster pace, which leads to an increased prosperity in any settlement along the roads. (Still, the roads are only dirt paths who are under minimal maintenance and if you wish more traders to traverse the mountains and your armies to be assured of marching quicker to meet your foe in the field, better roads are needed.)

-----------------------------------
Farms:

Farms
For any settlement to grow in population and thus size, a surplus source of food is needed for the inhabitants. Farms in the province are ideal for this as compared to other means of sustenance, they can yield a greater share of surplus food which can be brought and sold in the town market. As the settlement grows in size, new methods of agricultural organization and techniques are either invented or imitated from our neighbours, to ensure a greater yield of food. With more food to go around, more people can live in the settlement without fearing for shortage of food.

[Greek_fire19]

I went to my uni library and did a little research:

This is from 'Histoire de l'empire perse' 1996 by pierre briant. English Version: 'From Cyrus to Alexander, a history of the persian Empire' Translated into english in 2002 by Peter T Daniels. page 743.

This passage probably isnt as useful as I thought. I got all excited when I read 'remarkable surge of new evidence' but all it really says is that the persians had tight control over armenia. Still, some interesting place names and stuff about important cities

This passage is referring to armenia in the last achaemenid persian period; up to the conquest of Alexander.

'We heartily welcome the truly remarkable surge of new evidence, but inscriptional and archaeological, that has emerged, especially from ancient armenia. The latest achaeological and ceramic investigations appear to confirm the presence of highly developed achaemenid settlements. Especially on sites near lake Van. At Altintepe, the only example of an apadana in a satrapal capital has been found, and at Arin-Berd, very rare wall paintings have been found in an achaemenid building. An even more remarkable discovery is the find of fragments of three elamite tablets at armaravir-blur: according to the recent (but already disputed!) interpretation, they are very similar to the perseopolis tablets and deal with levying taxes (tithes?) in kind (head of cattle, grain) and depositing them in the quartermasters storehouses. These documents testify to the presence of developed provincial administration (perhaps a fralaraka). If we add that to the site of Armavir-blur (Urartian Argištihinili) was continuously occupied from the Urartian period to the Hellenistic period, that the hellenic seal impressions from Artošät (it isnt actually an umlaut it's a straight line across the a but I couldnt find the symbol) attest to both the achaemenid legacy and the so called "greco-persian" influence, and that even more recently Achaemenid column bases have been found at another site, we must at some point realise that the perception of Achaemenid armenia that we have hitherto held is in the process of reorganisation.

This passage is hopefully more useful as it deals with the ethnicities in armenia at the time

The passage comes from 'The seven great monarchies of the ancient eastern world: Parthia' but I forgot to note the page or the edition. Sorry about that.

The passage begins with a lot of stuff about armenia in assyrian times, and how the uranda, who occupied asrmenia, tried to maintain independence against the assyrians and fought savagely but were eventually beaten. The last king, Bilat duri, consented to pay tribute to assyria.

'There is reason to believe that between the time when we obtain this view of the primitive armenian peoples and that at which we next have any exact knowledge of the condition of the country- the time of the persian monarchy- a great revolution had taken place in the region. The Naïri, Urarda and Minni were Turanian, or at any rate, non-arian races. Their congeners in western asia were the early Babylonians and the Susanians, not the Medes, the Persians or the Phrygians. But by the time of Herodotus the Arian character of the Armenians had become established. Their close connection with the Phrygians was recognised (Herod. vii. 73) They had changed their national appellation: for while in the assyrian period the terms Naïri and Urarda had preponderated, under the Persians they had come to be called Armenians and their country Armenia. THe personal names in the country, of both men and women, had acquired a decidedly arian cast*. Everything seems to indicate that a strange people had immigrated into the land, bringing with them a new language, new manners and customs and a new religious system. From what quarter they had come, whether from Phrygia, as herodotus and Stephen believed, or, as we should gather from their language and religion, from Media, is perhaps doubtful: but it seems certain that from one quarter or another, Armenia had been arianised, the old Turanian character had passed away from it: immegrants had flocked in, and a new people had been formed- the real armenians of later times and indeed the present day- by the admixture of ruling arian tribes with a primitive Turarian population, the descendents of the old inhabitants.
The new race, this formed, though perhaps no less brave and warlike than the old, was less bent on maintaining it's independence than the old....the article goes on to talk about how the armenian people only rebelled once during the Achaemenid dynasty's reign, in the revolt of phraorotes, and how they submitted peacefully to seleucid rule, only rebelling in 190BC

*NAMES: In the behistun inscription we have three armenian names: Dadarshish, Arakha and Handita. To these undoubted Armenian names we can add Moses of Chorêné, Tigranes, Tigrania, Eryandus (=Aryandes) and Zaria; and from Xenophon, Sabaris (=Sybares)

There was then a lengthy description of the arian entymology of these names that I didn't include.

From what I can gather, the most logical two main ethnicities would be the arian 'ruling caste' who would have an increased influence and perhaps management potential, but who would not be as good commanders, whereas the descendants of the old Turarian population would be perhaps more warlike and savage, and make better infantry commanders. Like the article says, there was probably a siginificant amount on inter-marriage and such by this time, but It's not too much of a stretch that after two or three centuries there would still be a difference between the two races.

[Foot]

Krusader started trying to make some new descriptions for Armenia for us in January, but couldn't find much to make them more unique to the faction. He did work on walls as one of them. I think, though, that a combination of his and Root's descriptions would make for a very good final description. I will post the ones he wrote here. Could you insert some of your more "faction-specific" statements into these Root? They give more flavor to the faction descriptions. I thought these descriptions of his had made it into the current build, or I would have said something about them here. But I think this is a good thing to work on here. You can see his other descriptions below also: one for roads, farms, and the small trading port.

I'll work on these this evening should get some back to you tomorrow.

Foot

[oscar.k]

maybe you all dont now but armenia is a small and a poor country so the canes you will meet a armenian on te internet is small

[Foot]

{wooden_pallisade_romans_scipii} Tsankabad
{wooden_pallisade_romans_scipii_desc}
Wooden Pallisade\n\nA Tsankabad is the first step towards defending the settlements of Hayasdan. Brigands and outlaws are common raiders in Hai lands and an unfortified settlement is an easy target for them. A Tsankabad will hold off these foes with ease and perhaps even make them look elsewhere. But beware! A Tsankabad will not hold out a more determined foe for long for it will not stand against the machines of war that the enemy may construct. Yet the enemy will be slowed which may give you enough time to send word for help from the armies of Hayasdan and at the very least will allow you time to organise your militia with spear and bow.\n\nTake these advices into account and look to extending and strengthening your settlement's fortifications.
{wooden_pallisade_romans_scipii_desc_short}
A basic wooden pallisade. Not much protection but better than nothing!

Not as emotive, but is more in keeping with the other descriptions.

Foot

[LordElrond]

Oscar, please try and be productive or at least encouraging, people are doing the best they can. Foot, for examples of descriptions you can always check out the edited ones we have on the bug reports and tech help forum. We have been generally keeping the descriptions in past tense for buildings, I'm not saying what you have doesn't work, in fact it is infinitely better than nothing. I'm not trying to put anyone down, its just that the better they are to start with, the easier editing is. :2thumbsup: Good work so far.

LE

[Foot]

Oscar, please try and be productive or at least encouraging, people are doing the best they can. Foot, for examples of descriptions you can always check out the edited ones we have on the bug reports and tech help forum. We have been generally keeping the descriptions in past tense for buildings, I'm not saying what you have doesn't work, in fact it is infinitely better than nothing. I'm not trying to put anyone down, its just that the better they are to start with, the easier editing is. :2thumbsup: Good work so far.

LE

LE, the strange thing is that the greek, roman and persian ones are all in the present but the barbarian ones are in the past. There is a great amount of variation in the descriptions and I would love to get some clarification on what tense and person we should be writing in. Take a look at these examples.


This is no time to leave your settlement without proper protection, especially against the rising kingdoms of the North, and the barbarians of the East and West. Until more prosperous times come, this stauroma, a basic wooden palisade, will have to suffice. Don't depend on it for much, though. The phalanxes may have a better chance of defending against our rivals and the 'barbaros,' in the open field, under a skilled commander.

A stauroma won't last for long against a determined attacker. If you intend to keep your lands forever, advance your walls as soon as possible.


Every town should have a wooden palisade built around it, to protect the people within from raiders or enemy armies, Illyrian, Roman or Makedonian. It is just a mere hindrance for the enemy, who should easily be able to breach the wall with battering rams. Enemy archers will also be able to send volleys of arrows over the walls with ease, making it harder for you to defend them.

A wooden palisade will only hold an enemy at bay for a season, and should as quickly as possible be upgraded with stronger and higher walls.


Most towns find the need for some defense. Celts were often more inwardly concerned with defense, before expansion; hence the rise of hillforts and oppida. Though of poor quality, these basic walls provide a small measure of defense, but are more of a minor impediment than any true stopping force.

Notice that the first description is in the present 2nd person, the second description is still in the present but is no in the 3rd person, and the third description is in the past 3rd person. Personally what I would like to see is a description involving a type 1/2 (a description in the present, either 2nd or 3rd person - personally I prefer 2nd person) followed by a description in the past, 3rd person. This would allow for two things: One, the description in the past will give some historic info that couldn't be conveyed in the present tense (like that the celts were primarily concerned with defense over expansion); Two, it would continue the vein of gaming in the pass that RTW and the TW series is concerned with (i.e. that of changing the course of history), which is also furthered by the traits and ancillaries (which are all placed in the present tense).

Seeing as that many of the descriptions take one or the other of the tenses it would not be beyond impossibility to work to the new format that I propose. Notice also that this is the format (using the present 3rd person rather than the 2nd) that many of the units take. For example.


Infantry are light-armoured spearmen, they wear no protective headgear other than a belt tied around his head, and they wear a costume similar to that of Iranic kaftans. These infantrymen are only of medium quality and may have trouble dealing with higher-quality infantry that can be fielded by more powerful settled states.

Historically, the kingdom of Khotan, known in Han times as "Yutian", was famous as a major center of jade, silk production (that is, after silk was introduced to the region during the 1st century CE or later) and an abundance of other stones, and though it was quite limited in its agricultural potential as the latter depended entirely on irrigation, largely from the Kunlun range to its south, it was relatively a fertile oasis settlement compared to most other oasis settlements of the Tarim.*

Foot

*I have cut down a large amount of this description for the sake of space.

[LordElrond]

Hmm interesting, well I know for certain that second person is not a good choice for the descriptions. So far, we have been editing the descrips into past tense third person. In any case, your idea of combining the two tenses of past and present may work. I cannot tell you how to do it, and do not wish to. I'll mention this to kull and see if he will make a post on this since he's heading up the editing. For now, just write them how they sound best to you. Using the last method you proposed wouldn't be bad, since then they could easily be made one or the other if it is required. (I don't make the calls on how they are formatted, I just do what I'm told ~;))

LE

[Foot]

Right, well I'll rework the description I've done into 3rd person present and I'll try to write a historic description after it.

Another point that I might make is that if you write descriptions in the past tense, particualary for buildings, you often must either say very little about the building, and thus leave the player guessing somewhat, or say too much and overstep the historical boundary. Take a look at the description for the celtish pallisade. Notice that the only line to mention the pallisade is written in the present? That is one line of description about a building in the entire thing and its still in the present tense.

I really don't think that using the past tense to describe buildings or units is the way, but I do think that historical information, like that celts were very concerned with defence, should be mentioned as otherwise a lot of the historical research is hidden and not explicit.

The 2nd and 3rd person debate is still up, and I would put my vote for the 2nd because we are not truly just describing the object but also its use, and that generally requires a subject who intends to use it or at least the has the possibility of using it. However I do realise that having it in the 2nd person does restrict how the gamer views themselves in the game, they must become the subject. The 3rd person allows for both the view of the gamer as an outsider to the world and as the subject of the world. But thats just me going off on one.

I do think that the philosophy of the descriptions does need to be more coherent and adhered to than it currently is, though I would never suggest that this is the fault of any individual.

Foot

[Kull]

Good debate guys. Since we're deviating from the purpose of this thread (i.e focus on Armenia), I've opened up another thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1086824#post1086824)specifically to address the topic of description writing.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I like it Foot. I am *very* interested in your continuing work on this. And I'd like to thank you for your help so far too. :2thumbsup:

[Foot]

{wooden_wall_romans_scipii} Payte Amrotz
{wooden_wall_romans_scipii_desc}
Wooden Walls\n\nPayte Amrotz are a step up from a simple Tsankabad, and offer more protection for the settlements of Hayasdan. The Payte Amrotz, though stronger than the Tsankabad, are still constructed from local trees and are not the mark of a permanent, defensive fortification. Be warned! The stronger walls will protect your troops for longer but not indefinately and only simple machines need be constructed by the enemy that beseige you. Hai soldiers, armed with arrows of fire, might make short work of the flammable engines that the enemy will array before your Payte Amrotz so use them in force, but if the enemy breach the walls then the spear will be their best weapon. Worry not, however, for the soldiers of Hayasdan are equipped and trained well.\n\nWood can only protect for so long, for a more permanent solution to the defence of settlements the mountains of Hayasdan may offer a solution. Stone is strong and stands for much longer than a tree, make use of this natural resource to strengthen and extend your settlement's fortifications.
{wooden_wall_romans_scipii_desc_short}
A wooden wall that gives better protection than a simple pallisade.

{stone_wall_romans_scipii} Kare Amrotz
{stone_wall_romans_scipii_desc}
Stone Walls\n\nKare Amrotz, walls of stone. These great fortifications offer far better protection than Payte Amrotz and will secure the cities of Hayasdan from those who would wish to capture them. Great walls such as these, with their parapets and towers, offer superb firing platforms for Hai archers and an enemy who strays too close to the wall will find themselves beneath a hail of arrows. Stand guard! The Kare Amrotz, though stronger by far than the Payte Amrotz, can still succumb to weapons of war. The greeks are skilled in the art of sieges and know well how to pull down even the stoughtest defence. Yet to do so they must come within range of our bows and the arrows that fly from them. But if the enemy persevere then you must take the fighting to the streets with spear and lance, and though there will be damage the soldiers of Hayasdan shall fail you not.\n\nStone walls, like the mountains of Hayasdan shall protect the Hai people, but the ingenuity of your people is boundless and the construction of the Kare Amrotz can be bettered. Do not grow comfortable behind your secure defenses, seek to improve them and let them stand not only as protection but as a statement of Hayasdan power!
{stone_wall_romans_scipii_desc_short}
Stone walls are far superior to wooden ones and offer great protection.

Foot

[Foot]

{large_stone_wall_romans_scipii} Metz Kare Amrotz
{large_stone_wall_romans_scipii_desc}
Large Stone Wall\n\nMetz Kare Amrotz are great walls of Hayasdan, built not only to protect the cities under the rule of the Hai King but also to stand as testaments to the power of the Hai people and the Governor of the city. The ramparts of the Metz Kare Amrotz are much taller than the smaller walls of the simple Kare Amrotz and afford much better protection from attacking armies. Only the greatest foe will not lose heart against these powerful symbols for the gods of Hayasdan. Be wary! The power that these walls convey to the enemies of the Hai people also tempt their greedy hearts for wealth that lies behind them. Greedy hearts often lead men to their destruction, so expect nothing less from the Greeks, the Romans, and the Persians. Arrows will rain down upon with the enemy as they move their seige machines to the Metz Kare Amrotz and their losses will be great. If they breach the walls, then worry not, for the their troops will be small and frightened and will not fight long unless they fear their masters more than they fear us. If they fight then the soldiers of Hayasdan will fight also in defence of what is theirs.\n\nThe large stone walls stand as a testament to the power and glory of Hayasdan but even the Metz Kare Amrotz can be bettered. Look to thickening your walls and building them up into the sky as a prayer to Anahit and they will last forever and the city will pass into legend.
{large_stone_wall_romans_scipii_desc_short}
The Larger Stone Wall is a powerful symbols and offers greatly increased protection.

{epic_stone_wall_romans_scipii} Hskayakan Kare Amrotz
{epic_stone_wall_romans_scipii_desc}
Grand Stone Wall\n\nHskayakan Kare Amrotz, walls of stone that will pass into legend and myth. The protection they offer is so great that only if the enemy outnumber the garrison of the city in such great number will they even attempt an assault on these walls. They tower above all other structures a temple to Hai ingenuity and strength, a temple to Anahit and to Ara. The enemies of Hayasdan will look to superior numbers to take this city, and their armies will gather in their thousands to take it for the prize is too great. Arm the walls with archers and pour arrow after arrow upon the foe. The greatest greek war engines will be mustered against the Hskayakan Kare Amrotz, for nothing less will suffice, but let them not near the walls of the city and the enemy will lose heart and leave, never to return.\n\nNothing can surpass the Hskayakan Kare Amrotz, they are the greatest walls the lands of our people have seen and secure the lands of Hayasdan from harm.
{epic_stone_wall_romans_scipii_desc_short}
A Grand Stone Walls is an epic triumph for the city that builds it.

Walls are done.

Foot

[Foot]

In addition, I will work on adding separate paragraphs dealing with the history of the buildings, but the descriptions above stand in their own right so any constructive criticism is most welcome.

Foot

[Foot]

Moving on to farms now, but I've noticed that the Armenians only have descriptions for basic farming and not farming +1/+2. Do they not gain access to these buildings (highly unlikely) or do they just need to be added - i.e. do I need to write descriptions for the farming +1/+2?

Foot

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Hmm. They are right there on the border for +1. I suppose we could do one the +1 one for them though. But +2 isn't going to happen for them. So go ahead and do a +1 farm one for them too.

[Kull]

Thanks Foot! When you load up EB v.74, all the Armenian buildings you've completed to this point are now a part of the game!

[artavazd]

"maybe you all dont now but armenia is a small and a poor country so the canes you will meet a armenian on te internet is small"


Hi oscar. I am Armenian. today Armenia is a small country, but i wont say it is poor. Have you been in Armenia?? Armenian people even though small in size, have had great, and still have great achievments, in almost every aspect of human civilization, and advancment. ranging from medicine, to businees.

anyways I have contributed to EB, but i havent been online for a while but now i am back. I posted in the armenian section in the EB members forum trying to aid foot in any issues that i can.

[Dooz]

Going against oscar.k's assumption that you probably won't see Armos on the internet, I'm one as well and I've seen a lot more around these boards. Just sayin...

[Reaper]

Hi, I'm Armenian as well, but from Canada.

During my childhood and adolescence, I went to an Armenian school here in Montreal, where I've been taught Armenian history.

Do you still need help in things? This mod looks pretty good :)

[Enguerrand de Sarnéac]

Perhaps you guys could just look at this post and the people posting for starters? I don't know, but this thread is full of Armenians posting and people posting *especially* for this thread with loads of information from university libraries or Armenian grannies, though from people with only a few posts on their palmares. THEY ARE IGNORED!
I'm saddened to see that even on the EB forums the 21th century-online-hierarchy is the order of the day. If you're asking information or help in a thread, expect OTHER people offering it than just the regulars posting some silly comments that they just don't know.

Just...stop ignoring people with the silly barbarian avatar, junior members or people with 1-2 posts.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Who is ignoring whom here? Totally lost by that last post. Most of the people actually doing the work are old timers. Foot has done a huge portion of it all.

[Foot]

Enguerrand, I'm sorry, I don't really understand your post. Do you feel that the EB team have ignored some of the people who have posted in response to this thread.

The original cry for help was long ago answered, at least as much as I have answered it (which I admit has not been as much as I would have liked). When this post first went out there was no one actively working on the Hayasdan team, EB was even planning to drop the faction because there was no one to work on it. Lots of people answered, and the EB team set tasks for them. I was one of the people who did those tasks and so was promptly invited in and dropped in the Hayasdan driving seat (an overwhelming sensation I must admit).

EB does not need knowledgeable people, EB needs pro-active people; knowledge can come after that (as it did for me as it happens). If you feel that my work has been lacking in some area, then please PM me about it. Some things I cannot change, but some things I can. If you feel you can help the team, dont post and wait for our response PM me and tell me what you think you can do.

But if people want a task to be pro-active on, then I suggest you look into traits and ancillaries for Hayasdan as we are really lacking in depth there. Play-test the faction. Where do you think we are lacking? Where do you think we could do better? What suggestions do you have? What changes do you want there to be? Start a thread, tell me about it.

Foot

[Sheep]

I don't think he realized that the original posts in this thread are well over a year old.

[Enguerrand de Sarnéac]

I did. I saw the dates, I'm following the forums and I wondered about the topic. Besides, the date doesn't really matter.

I wasn't doubting the team, or the members or the game. I really enjoy playing EB and I do appreciate all the members, especially the productive ones like Foot or Archelaou. Wonderful job you did with R:TW.
I shouldn't have put it like that I suppose; sounded quite flaming. I didn't mean to blame anyone, I was merely pointing at the fact that over this year some people have been offering help; and at the fact that people with few posts are less likely to be taken seriously. Sorry to say this, but this is true I'm afraid...
Perhaps I oughtn't have used capital letters...better to have used italic...

I'm sorry, this thread was just an opportunity to air my angry feelings towards the system. No harm was intended, certainly not to the members of the EB-team.

Enguerrand de Sarnéac= blacklisted :hanged:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I understand what you're saying, but for this faction (and for getai too), it is really hard to find serious scholarly work that we can base things on. There are about ten pages in From Sardis to Samarkand that have provided some of the best information on whether or not the faction should even exist at this time (as a separate entity), but we really had nothing else that clearly talked about this faction in this period (that is a book on the Seleucid empire, not on the Armenians). Relying on accounts of much earlier or much later periods is very difficult, but those are the periods folks who have done serious research on for this faction seem to be most interested in (understandably so I might add). Our guys are forced to use out of era work for many descriptions, but they do it carefully. I don't know how much information passed down from one's ancestors or some other general works on the history of the armenians are able to help honestly. I guess I'll let foot speak to that and I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds here too terribly much (if so, just realize I'm teh .rar! :laugh4:)