Increase Sales of Anti-Depressives -- Promote Secular Humanism [Archive]

Seamus Fermanagh

03-01-2006, 15:08

The latest Pew Research polling

http://pewresearch.org/social/chart.php?ChartID=37

suggests that conservatives are significantly happier than liberals, and that regular church-goers are happier than those who skip.

While I recognize that there are always limitations to interpreting such data, this trend has persisted for years in Pew research.

From this, is it not reasonable to extrapolate that those of you who decry organized religion or who attack conservative values are, in all likelihood, contributing to your own unhappiness?

If anything this suggests that the wholly secularized, democratic-socialist society that serves as an archetypal model for the political left's utopia would be a society desperately in need of Paxil and Prozac just to get by.

...just a thought

Fragony

03-01-2006, 15:34

Human contact makes people happy, I think people that attend church just have more of it. You feel better when you are part of something bigger.

Kralizec

03-01-2006, 15:39

I think most atheists would acknowledge that a belief in a benign deity can be a source of optimism and inspiration.
That's not a reason to convert, though. The balance of benefits/disadvantages a religion offers on Earth are not a rational reason to convert. If I were to convert to christianity or budhism, I'd do it because their doctrines seem rational and their teachings the spiritual truth. Not because it works like prozac (wich, by the way, is what Marx really meant when he said "religion is the opium of the masses").
If you convert to judaism, you do it because you're convinced of the existence of Yaweh and despite the fact that judaism places some firm ristrictions and hardships on your lifestyle.
(that's how it should be. I have no doubt that more then a few mormons have adopted their faith simply because it allows polygamy. Many ex mormons admit it, anyway.)

And about liberals...the fact that the republicans have held the presidency and congress for quite a time now would have something to do with them not being happy, wouldn't it?

Banquo's Ghost

03-01-2006, 15:43

"Religion is the opiate of the masses."

Just a choice of drug therapies ~;)

If I could spare the time, I would find you the endless surveys that show that the more intelligent one is, the more one appears to be unhappy. And those that show that the more economically advanced a society is, the higher the index of unhappiness. So I could 'prove' that being stupid, poor and unthinkingly religious was the sure way to happiness. And the Christian gospels would support this conclusion unhesitatingly as well.

However, sure as eggs is eggs, you could find a superior number of surveys to disprove my position to your advantage and so we would go round and round until dizzy.

Selecting surveys tends only to support the selector's existing prejudices. :wall:

rory_20_uk

03-01-2006, 16:08

A Labrador is a very happy animal. It has very simple needs, and doesn't bother with difficult conundrums... But I'd rather be me than a Labrador.

Happiness has also been shown to be inversely linked with intelligence.

So yeah, thick churchgoers are happy. The very few questions their brain is able to cope with have been answered for them. They know where they came from and where they are going.

I envy them and pity them at the same time.

~:smoking:

Crazed Rabbit

03-01-2006, 16:26

(wich, by the way, is what Marx really meant when he said "religion is the opium of the masses")

No, he meant it as the opium that the government used to keep the people happy and occupied so they wouldn't rebel. He was wrong, of course.

I also find it funny that the people responding here have to resort to broad-based slander against an entire group of people. They have no real argument, so they propose the rediculus notion that leftists and democrats are, as a whole, smarter than conservatives and Christians. It's similar to a form of racism.:no:

Crazed Rabbit

SwordsMaster

03-01-2006, 16:36

I don't think that study proves much. And I'm pretty sure you could find equivalent studies that would place atheists on top in some other category. Besides, maybe it is the other way around: the people go to church because they don't take anti-depressives, not they don't take anti-depressives because they go to church.

kataphraktoi

03-01-2006, 16:43

So yeah, thick churchgoers are happy. The very few questions their brain is able to cope with have been answered for them. They know where they came from and where they are going.

I envy them and pity them at the same time.

So I'm a thick church-goer am I?

That implies my mind is devoid of logical and rational thought processes?

Perhaps I only see the world in black and white?

Hahahaha, your comments are funny anyway because some of it is true...but not applicable to me, but Labradors are indeed very contented.

Take my dog for instance, he's no Labrador but he enjoys the following:

- pancakes :laugh4
- chips
- chocolate
- beef
- lamb
- pork
- peanuts

Kagemusha

03-01-2006, 16:55

rory_20_uk

03-01-2006, 17:08

As I stated both intelligence and religion are causes of increased happiness, those that have both are more likely to be happy.

I did not say that because one goes to the church one has to be thick, nor that those wich don't go to church are clever.

~:smoking:

master of the puppets

03-01-2006, 17:13

BigTex

03-01-2006, 17:28

While intelligence (or a firm understanding of the unaswerables in life and no acceptance of the simple answers out there) more then likely has something to do with happiness. I would say that the suroundings also play into that, you notice that large metropolises are more bland uniform and grey. I'm betting a highly intelligent person with a house in the middle of the forest up in the northern west coast would be happier then a highly intelligent person stuck in the middle of New York. As for socialist being less happy, i'd point you towards the citizens of China and the citizens of the former USSR.:bigcry: :bigcry: :cry:

ignorance is bliss... and i'm freakin miserable. So true, but nothing a good book can't take your mind away from, ahh "A Brief History of Time" my bible.

Vladimir

03-01-2006, 17:31

i'm smart, i worry to much, i worry about the world, about my freinds, about money and my future, i worry abot the economy and polotics, i worry about WMDs and global dictatorship, i worry about the starving people 200000 miles away and i worry about how god can exist, i worry about evolution and the church, i worry about how to cure my insomnia and other ailments,i worry about my grades and my love-life, i worry about my sanity.

my freind takes another hit of the doobie and says chill out man, everything is gonna be all right.

moral of the story; ignorance is bliss... and i'm freakin miserable.

A pity you don't worry about grammar, punctuation or spelling. Worrying doesn’t mean you’re intelligent. Women worry all the time and that doesn’t mean they’re smart. Intelligent, educated people look for solutions to problems and take actions to solve them, not worry about them.

Kralizec

03-01-2006, 17:45

No, he meant it as the opium that the government used to keep the people happy and occupied so they wouldn't rebel. He was wrong, of course.

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opiate of the masses."

Puts the whole quote into an entirely different context, doesn't it? Strangely enough, you rarely see people quote anything but the last part. Gee, I wonder why that is?
Just like somepeople always selectively quote George Orwell to give the impression that his works are anti-marxist and that he endorsed capitalism.
You are partially right though, Marx considered the government and the spiritual leaders to be bedfellows and condemned both for trying to uphold the status quo.

(for the record, I don't endorse communism, or socialism in the way Marx intended)

rory_20_uk

03-01-2006, 17:49

yesdachi

03-01-2006, 18:12

moral of the story; ignorance is bliss... and i'm freakin miserable.
Thats why the Labrador is so happy. give that dog a 20% IQ boost, a handful of puppies, a dozen predators, no more free meals and lets see how happy it is. ignorance is bliss but there is a lot to be said for having all your needs taken care of and being oblivious to possible troubles. The last thing that dog is thinking of is a terrorist attack, loosing its job, putting the kids thru school or hundreds of other things we have to worry about.

Really believing that there is a god that has your back would ease ones worries. The lab has a good "keeper" to keep it worry free, it would be comforting (allowing for less need of an anti-depressant) to know we had a good "keeper" or should i say "shepard" also. :smile:

Hurin_Rules

03-01-2006, 18:20

From this, is it not reasonable to extrapolate that those of you who decry organized religion or who attack conservative values are, in all likelihood, contributing to your own unhappiness?

The downside is, religious beliefs correlate inversely with intelligence, scientific awareness and education: in short, the more religious you are, the less educated and intelligent you are likely to be:

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:GA_CaKGLOZIJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiousness_and_intelligence+iq+education+religious&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=1

This is just me, but I'd rather be smart and troubled by what I see in the world than stupid and happy. And I'd MUCH rather prefer my neighbours to be the same, especially if they own guns.

Fragony

03-01-2006, 18:42

Really believing that there is a god that has your back would ease ones worries. The lab has a good "keeper" to keep it worry free, it would be comforting (allowing for less need of an anti-depressant) to know we had a good "keeper" or should i say "shepard" also. :smile:

Laugh about it if you must, but if there is a god it will one day be scientifically proven. Untill that day, scientists should acknowledge the fact that they don't know everything(why would they want to do science if they did?). The greatest part of knowledge is the one we don't have yet, untill we do a little modesty might be suitable. Maybe you think all of this just happened, I don't. I am not that religious, but systematic enough to keep all options open. There has to be something, it is all too much to just happen.

Reverend Joe

03-01-2006, 19:01

doc_bean

03-01-2006, 19:48

There has to be something, it is all too much to just happen.

Sure, but this thread is more about religion than about believing in a Creator.
It's quite possible to believe there is a God, Creator of all, and not believe he cares very much about those humans walking around on a little planet somewhere in His little universe. For all we know, He could have created the universe to suit the labrador, and the real First Commandment has something to do with regular feedings...

Paul Peru

03-01-2006, 19:49

So basicly you find the most unhappy people in the planet from Scandinavia.Since in here the societys are mainly based on Social- Democracy and also the population is very secular.You sure about this Seamus?~:)
Yup, we're miserable.:laugh4:

Or: We have it so good, we don't have to turn to religion.:2thumbsup:

Religion, or at least religious/mystic/spiritual experiences in people who are not otherwise psychotic or on drugs, is due to a mutation causing an anomaly in the brain.

It's probably quite useful during periods of crisis, because it keeps people from loosing all hope when the going gets tough. It sure helps to have heaven waiting, and knowing beyond doubt what is right and wrong without having to think for yourself. On the other hand there are reports of side effects. (Jonestown, Masada etc.)

master of the puppets

03-01-2006, 19:51

i was actually trying to say that with a person with more intelligence is more prone to see the bigger picture of the world, while the average idiot can't see nor does he care about his own little globe of conciousness.

yesdachi

03-01-2006, 20:42

Laugh about it if you must, but if there is a god it will one day be scientifically proven. Untill that day, scientists should acknowledge the fact that they don't know everything(why would they want to do science if they did?). The greatest part of knowledge is the one we don't have yet, untill we do a little modesty might be suitable. Maybe you think all of this just happened, I don't. I am not that religious, but systematic enough to keep all options open. There has to be something, it is all too much to just happen.
Of course i must laugh, its MY religion.:laugh3:

Actually i do believe in a higher power, i just don't think it is one of the ones written about. Perhaps a topic for another thread but the point i was trying to make is that (to me at least) it is reasonable to accept that someone that believes in a god that is there to give you the support you need when times are tough or that there is a heaven waiting for you if times get really tough would be less likely to suffer from depression than someone that doesent believe.

My mother-in-law is always facing some kind of trouble (cancer, finances, family deaths, etc.) and she always says that god will help her thru it and she gets thru it, IMO with far less stress than if she didn't believe.

The research Seamus has pointed out is reasonable enough for me to accept. Additionally i think liberals probably do suffer from more depression issues but i’ll bet conservatives have higher blood pressure.~D

Reenk Roink

03-01-2006, 21:16

The downside is, religious beliefs correlate inversely with intelligence, scientific awareness and education: in short, the more religious you are, the less educated and intelligent you are likely to be:

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:GA_CaKGLOZIJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiousness_and_intelligence+iq+education+religious&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=1

Hmmm...my Harvard study (Interesting Find... thread) found the opposite trend than that of the Skeptic study...

I'm a bit skeptic of Skeptic now.

*yes...earlier a punch on religious fanatics, now on militant atheists*

Seamus Fermanagh

03-01-2006, 21:40

So basicly you find the most unhappy people in the planet from Scandinavia.Since in here the societys are mainly based on Social- Democracy and also the population is very secular.You sure about this Seamus?~:)

I'm sure of a few things, think a few more are pretty likely, and pretty well know hang-all about the rest (which is most of everything).:book:

Scandinavia currently is the most secularized region of the Western World, with the lowest church attendence, lowest level of self-identification with a religion, and arguably the most heavily federalized socialist democracies on the planet. Are they unhappy? I havent read much on that aspect of these societies.

In part, my post #1 was a "hanging curve ball" that is being hit in predictable directions (for the most part).:laugh4:

Big Tex:

I said socialist democracies so as to specifically exclude the dictatorships enacted in the Soviet Union and its satelites. Even the majority of the socialist European left thought they were out of it, and the collapse in 1989 confirmed it for all but a really whacked out few.

Soulforged

03-02-2006, 04:05

From this, is it not reasonable to extrapolate that those of you who decry organized religion or who attack conservative values are, in all likelihood, contributing to your own unhappiness?

If anything this suggests that the wholly secularized, democratic-socialist society that serves as an archetypal model for the political left's utopia would be a society desperately in need of Paxil and Prozac just to get by.Religion has the same effect of those drugs. The drugs act chemically while religion acts by the power of suggestion. This poll, I think, demostrates that. Notice that I'm not taking sides here, it could be good to be totally secular or totally religious, but personally I think that the middle is the right spot (without centralized, dogmatized and organized religion of course).

Soulforged

03-02-2006, 04:05

From this, is it not reasonable to extrapolate that those of you who decry organized religion or who attack conservative values are, in all likelihood, contributing to your own unhappiness?

If anything this suggests that the wholly secularized, democratic-socialist society that serves as an archetypal model for the political left's utopia would be a society desperately in need of Paxil and Prozac just to get by.Religion has the same effect of those drugs. The drugs act chemically while religion acts by the power of suggestion. This poll, I think, demostrates that. Notice that I'm not taking sides here, it could be good to be totally secular or totally religious, but personally I think that the middle is the right spot (without centralized, dogmatized and organized religion of course).

Slyspy

03-02-2006, 04:51

Papewaio

03-02-2006, 05:36

- It's a fool's paradise methinks.

If you can't understand there is a danger, you can't worry about it.

Ignorance is bliss. :laugh4:

Samurai Waki

03-02-2006, 07:25

I would rather live my entire life in truth and agony then live my entire life in Ignorance and Bliss.

I hated anti-depressants and I refuse to take them... and I'm not even a scientologist.

Papewaio

03-02-2006, 07:41

I would rather live my entire life in truth and agony then live my entire life in Ignorance and Bliss.

I hated anti-depressants and I refuse to take them... and I'm not even a scientologist.

Well if you were a scientologist you would have just defeated the first part of your statement... :juggle2:

Samurai Waki

03-02-2006, 08:02

Well if you were a scientologist you would have just defeated the first part of your statement... :juggle2:

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Depressed and Ignorant... thats well...depressing.

Fragony

03-02-2006, 12:01

- It's a fool's paradise methinks.

If you can't understand there is a danger, you can't worry about it.

Ignorance is bliss. :laugh4:

Well said, wrong topic though.

Lemur

03-02-2006, 16:27

Two thoughts:

(1) Doesn't the entire premise of this thread smack of self-satisfied complacency, with a little bit of condescension thrown in for aftertaste?

(2) Where in this two-dimensional worldview do you put religious people who are not strict conservatives? If we attend church but don't worship the ground Karl Rove walks on, do we still need antidepressants?

Bulawayo

03-02-2006, 16:35

Hmmm...my Harvard study (Interesting Find... thread) found the opposite trend than that of the Skeptic study...

I'm a bit skeptic of Skeptic now.

*yes...earlier a punch on religious fanatics, now on militant atheists*

Then this (http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/) is the site for you. ~;)

Reenk Roink

03-02-2006, 17:02

Then this (http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/) is the site for you. ~;)

GAH...overuse of the word "skeptic"...

*gurgle*

Devastatin Dave

03-02-2006, 17:05

Take my dog for instance, he's no Labrador but he enjoys the following:

- chocolate

Chocolate is really bad for dogs. If it ingests too much, it can kill him/her...
I always thought you had to be on drugs to believe in the left's silly logic. Guess I was right... AGAIN.

BigTex

03-02-2006, 18:12

BigTex
I like the way you think, this has got to go on sig.:2thumbsup:

Hurin_Rules

03-02-2006, 18:22

(1) Doesn't the entire premise of this thread smack of self-satisfied complacency, with a little bit of condescension thrown in for aftertaste?

Indeed. Hence my lack of remorse for pointing out, in response, that religious beliefs correlate negatively with intelligence.

Reenk Roink

03-02-2006, 18:46

Indeed. Hence my lack of remorse for pointing out, in response, that religious beliefs correlate negatively with intelligence.

You said this 3 times already...

Once in the "Interesting Find" thread where I was quick to point out that in the US, religious attendence increases with increased education according to a comprehensive Harvard study...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1072253&postcount=9

Then I pointed that out again in this thread...reply 22 or 23 I think...

And I'm doing it again...:grin2:

As for the smaller studies of GPA vs. religiosity, it seems it can go both ways...

http://digitalcommons.libraries.columbia.edu/dissertations/AAI9910646/

And these "skeptic" studies just bother me... It's clear what their agenda is...

Vladimir

03-02-2006, 18:51

Vladimir, you don't pull your punches, do you?

Merely being intelligent or educated does not mean one is going to be focused on solutions. That is more a factor in the personality of the individual, rather on the raw intelligence.

~:smoking:

I apologize if I came across as harsh, I often tend to. My comment about intelligence reflects deeply held view that I have about life. There is a difference between inelligent and intellectual. The difference between the two is quite often action. Unused intelligence is meaningless.

Seamus Fermanagh

03-02-2006, 20:02

Two thoughts:

(1) Doesn't the entire premise of this thread smack of self-satisfied complacency, with a little bit of condescension thrown in for aftertaste?

A little of the former, probably, but more one-upsmanship then condescension.

(2) Where in this two-dimensional worldview do you put religious people who are not strict conservatives? If we attend church but don't worship the ground Karl Rove walks on, do we still need antidepressants?

I hope not. "Turd-boy" is a right political operative, nothing more.

Papewaio

03-03-2006, 02:08

Well said, wrong topic though.

Dead on topic.

Those who are blinkered (religious) are living in a paradise.

Those who are secular do not have that luxury of ignorance and hence look towards chemicals to get relief.

BTW... I actually think there are proportionally just as many blinkered religious and secular people... but truth hinders smart arse remarks :inquisitive:

Xiahou

03-03-2006, 02:41

And these "skeptic" studies just bother me... It's clear what their agenda is...Indeed.

Those who are secular do not have that luxury of ignorance and hence look towards chemicals to get relief.:laugh4: Someone has got to sig that!

Byzantine Mercenary

03-03-2006, 18:08

Goofball

03-03-2006, 23:25

''The downside is, religious beliefs correlate inversely with intelligence, scientific awareness and education: in short, the more religious you are, the less educated and intelligent you are likely to be: ''

geez how can you guys turn church goers needing less anti depressants into a ''stupid religious people'' thread! naturally you attack christians so of course it doesn't class as racism and im sure its nothing like the opinion held by the Nazis of the jews (a secular group ridiculeing a reliqious minority with no good basis in fact), but of course im ignorant as are most of historys best scientists and leaders (Einstien, Newton, Darwin, etc).

im not surprised that non religious people are (in general) less happy many of the rules you guys ridicule are designed with our happyness in mind.

Let me get this straight:

A thread is started, the entire premise of which is a not-so-subtle dig by religious types at secular types. Then, when a few of us secular types respond with some not-so-subtle digs of our own at religious types, you call us Nazis.

At least, I think you did. I'm not quite sure. The meandering, poorly structured, badly punctuated nature of that post makes it very difficult for anybody to figure out exactly what your point is.

:dizzy2:

Byzantine Mercenary

03-03-2006, 23:39

Let me get this straight:

A thread is started, the entire premise of which is a not-so-subtle dig by religious types at secular types. Then, when a few of us secular types respond with some not-so-subtle digs of our own at religious types, you call us Nazis.

At least, I think you did. I'm not quite sure. The meandering, poorly structured, badly punctuated nature of that post makes it very difficult for anybody to figure out exactly what your point is.

:dizzy2:
I didn't call you Nazis, i meant that you were harping on about how much more inteligent your belief systems are in an extremely arogant way, saying how very brave it is to be an athisist and that you were aiming this in a way that would be considered rasism were it aimed at other groups (like the Nazis did) you turn this into some weird stawman about me calling you Nazis, geez your not that bad (methinks he doth protest to much?).

Im sorry you found my tone ''meandering'' i was trying to avoid argueing too seriously and being acused of being uptight (but hey i guess you did that anyway). english and grammer may not be my strongpoint sometimes but this is a games forum not a debateing society so your dig at my writing seems a bit below the belt...

Reenk Roink

03-04-2006, 00:24

???

Post Count +1??? :huh:

EDIT: Might as well make good use of this post...

I can completely comprehend what BM was saying. It really wasn't hard at all. Before questioning one's intelligence on a typing sample (which is more a question of linguistics or laziness) please question why it is difficult to comprehend...

Leave BM and ShambleS and all those bad typers alone! :shout:

Reenk Roink

03-04-2006, 00:25

First of all, I would like to point out, that in my opinion and experience with personalities at the Org, Byzantine Mercenary has been one of the most polite and amiable.

Secondly, and back on the topic (somewhat), it is my conclusion that secular or non-religious types are not more or less intelligent that religious folk. Although I have posted on that repeatedly...:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1072253&postcount=9

Goofball

03-04-2006, 00:32

I didn't call you Nazis, i meant that you were harping on about how much more inteligent your belief systems are in an extremely arogant way, saying how very brave it is to be an athisist and that you were aiming this in a way that would be considered rasism were it aimed at other groups (like the Nazis did) you turn this into some weird stawman about me calling you Nazis, geez your not that bad (methinks he doth protest to much?).

Im sorry you found my tone ''meandering'' i was trying to avoid argueing too seriously and being acused of being uptight (but hey i guess you did that anyway). english and grammer may not be my strongpoint sometimes but this is a games forum not a debateing society so your dig at my writing seems a bit below the belt...

It wasn't a dig. I really am having a hard time understanding what you are talking about.

Byzantine Mercenary

03-04-2006, 00:46

It wasn't a dig. I really am having a hard time understanding what you are talking about.

ok, well basicly what i was saying was that i find the idea that religious people are ignorant very insulting (perhaps my passion on this subject distorted my post a bit) i wasn't aiming an attack at anyone or trying to call athisists Nazis i was arguing that the idea that religious people are only religious because they are not clever enough to realise that their wrong is compleately incorect and would be a form of racism were it aimed at others.

I like most christians try and challenge and explore the reason for my faith and find athists writing this off as my ignorance arogant.

My wording may sometimes be a little floored, im not the best typist!

Goofball

03-04-2006, 00:57

Kralizec

03-04-2006, 00:58

Well, I didn't have any trouble reading your posts ~:grouphug:

It may have been a cheap shot at religous people, but the whole thread started out with a smug remark against secular people.

This is the backroom after all...

AntiochusIII

03-04-2006, 00:59

ok, well basicly what i was saying was that i find the idea that religious people are ignorant very insulting (perhaps my passion on this subject distorted my post a bit) i wasn't aiming an attack at anyone or trying to call athisists Nazis i was arguing that the idea that religious people are only religious because they are not clever enough to realise that their wrong is compleately incorect and would be a form of racism were it aimed at others.

I like most christians try and challenge and explore the reason for my faith and find athists writing this off as my ignorance arogant.

My wording may sometimes be a little floored, im not the best typist!Ah, you missed the sarcastic tone that the philosophers of the .org spill those so-called "researches" simply just as an attack on Seamus' original source. I truly doubt most of them actually agree that Christians are, generally, dumb.

Like how I truly doubt that being liberal makes you depressive.

After all, Hurin Rules and Papewaio are obviously not two people to easily believe in such agenda-based "researches" without much scrutinizing on their part.

Not that this prevent the prejudiced, evil, God-hating and hated by God (yes, by saying that I allegedly confirm his existence, but I couldn't care less about semantics right now--ha!) me to laugh at the "dumb, ignorant churchgoer" analogy, even if for rather different reasons than the usual one.

Byzantine Mercenary

03-04-2006, 01:16

I understand. But it is also insulting to imply that non-religious people are drug-dependent worry-warts, which was really the opening shot of this thread. My point was that if a thread starts out that way, then return cheap shots (i.e. religious people are not as smart) are going to naturally occur, so you really had no grounds to get so bent out of shape about it.

And for the record, I don't think religious people are any stupider or more ignorant than any other group of people.

yes that would be an unfair genaralisation, however the articles results were as agaist me as you (i am nowhere near being a regular church goer and the article was about compareing churchgoers and non church goers which is very different from compareing religious people and atheists)

The whole idea of religious rules is not to control people but to make them happyer (as i said) and although i know they do not always work i believe that on average they will make people happyer

Seamus Fermanagh

03-04-2006, 03:34

...But seriously folks...you have to learn to view data and the conclusions drawn from them with a critical -- but not jaundiced --eye.

These polls report what they say they do, but what you read into them -- or what I suggestively teased from them -- is a process of interpretation.

Are regular churchgoers more likely to describe themselves (important phrase that) as "happy?" Yes.

Does it therefore follow that not going to church makes one unhappy? No.

Churchgoers have, by and large, made up their minds about a belief system and their role in the universe. The same may very well be true of the "anti"- religious, but the numbers are indiscernible because the categories cram the well-adjusted irreligious ones together with those who are ignorant/clueless/unsure/worried/searching. It's not a great stretch to guess that this latter slice is likely to be unhappy as it tends to go with mental turmoil of any sort. It may well distort the numbers.

I'm a happy churchgoer. Kraz' likely isn't a churchgoer, but it would be a leap to assume he's unhappy therefore.

As I used to teach about correlations. In virtually every instance, an increase in the number of churches in a community strongly and positively correlated to an increase in the number of prostitutes in that community. Is it reasonable to say that religion creates prostitutes? Of course not, another factor (overall population increase) is actually far more explanative of what's going on -- but the correlation works every time.

This has been fun. I now return you to your regularly scheduled backroom interactions.

Lemur

03-04-2006, 06:20

Dear lord, a voice of reason and moderation in the Backroom. Burn him! He's a witch! The Devil has taken his soul!

A.Saturnus

03-05-2006, 00:33

Churchgoers have, by and large, made up their minds about a belief system and their role in the universe. The same may very well be true of the "anti"- religious, but the numbers are indiscernible because the categories cram the well-adjusted irreligious ones together with those who are ignorant/clueless/unsure/worried/searching. It's not a great stretch to guess that this latter slice is likely to be unhappy as it tends to go with mental turmoil of any sort. It may well distort the numbers.

To be more precise, what should be considered is that depressed people usually have a hard time believing in a supernatural force watching over them. Or do you hear them say "no one loves me... except Jesus"?!
There is a correlation but the causal connection is probably not that lacking faith makes you depressed but that being depressed lets you question your believes. From that does not follow that you can't be an atheist for different reasons.
BTW: The USA has a far higher consume of anti-depressants than European countries. I would argue that Americans are neither more secualar nor more depressed than Europeans.