View Full Version : Christian cross removed from resistance monument in Amsterdam.
Guess who took offence on a christian symbol in a dutch town on a monument that has stood there for 50 years, yes, correct. Soooooo, now there will be a new monument without the christian symbol, we wouldn't want to offend our muslim citizins with such trivial things as our culture and heritage. The politicians who insist that the real problem with the dutch is our fear of the islam didn't waste any time collaborating, thank you very much. wtf do the multicultists want? Let's tear down the windmills, poisen the tulips, ban wooden shoes, burn the churches and call the Netherlands Dutchiestan from now on. Anything mildly nationalistic is an offence to the great new world order of peace love and understanding, forget who you are, we will tell you what you have to become.
In the meantime, this is being build. Biggest of europe.
http://democrates.net/data/upimages/westermoskeet.jpg
rant over.
Rodion Romanovich
03-04-2006, 11:58
Really hypocritical... This whole way Europe is communicating with muslims right now is insane. They let the muslims have their will through when they have no right to, and at the same time allow harassing and discrimination of muslims in other situations. You can't think of a group like that - like it would be a single body. You should try to make it right in every single situation, not compensate unfairness in one case by being unfair in the other direction other times. It's signalling weakness, and inability as a leader to behave that way. It show that your decisions about the fate of others are arbitrary and random, not based on any firm moral principles and justice. If you keep treating all muslims unfairly, half of them by being too giving, and the other half by being respectless and oppressive, the result isn't that the two types of unfairness compensate each other, the result is that they're added together or multiplied.
It's obvious that this incident is a case where it's necessary to clearly show that pretended rage from a few muslims shouldn't make them get what they want. On the other hand it's necessary that Danish law puts the cartoon drawers to trial to see if they've broken the laws in that the cartoons should be "hate speech".
The result of all this is, alas, that Christian and atheistic Europeans lose respect and power to muslims who will hate and disrespect Christian and atheistic Europeans. I can tell you it isn't fun for a group to be under the power of someone who hates and disrespects them. Being giving and understanding is good if and only if it is fair, otherwise it'll only encourage as much violence, hatred and threats as being intolerant would.
~:rolleyes:
Outrageous. The result of local politicians caving in to fundamentalists.
It is not “politically correct” to remove that cross. It is idiotic.
~:rolleyes:
Outrageous. The result of local politicians caving in to fundamentalists.
It is not “politically correct” to remove that cross. It is idiotic.
I agree.
~:rolleyes:
Outrageous. The result of local politicians caving in to fundamentalists.
The local politians are the fundamentalists, the followers of the multicult. It is common sense to remove a finger to save a hand, instead they remove the arm, and the hand dies with it. For them it is all one big social experiment, one they love to admire from a safe distance.
The local politians are the fundamentalists, the followers of the multicult. It is common sense to remove a finger to save a hand, instead they remove the arm, and the hand dies with it. For them it is all one big social experiment, one they love to admire from a safe distance.
What is wrong with these people? It is not multiculturalism when you attempt to eradicate one culture to accommodate the other. :dizzy2:
What is wrong with these people? It is not multiculturalism when you attempt to eradicate one culture to accommodate the other. :dizzy2:
gimme a hug!
It is a horrible condition commonly referred to as the dutch disease (no not the hug, some disagree on this)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2058502,00.html
'As I left the Netherlands I once again felt terrible sorrow for a country that is slowly being lost. A society which should be carefree and inspiring has become dark and worried. The jihad in Europe is winning. And Holland, and our continent, takes one step further into a dark and menacing future.'
Thing is, those that 'represent' us are a scary scared bunch, they think they can solve everything by giving muslims what they want, whenever they want.
KukriKhan
03-04-2006, 14:22
Is there a news story somewhere with this incident? Google doesn't seem to know what I'm talking about when I searched for "Christian cross removed from resistance monument in Amsterdam"...
Is there a news story somewhere with this incident? Google doesn't seem to know what I'm talking about when I searched for "Christian cross removed from resistance monument in Amsterdam"...
Only in dutch I'm afraid. Seems like jews have been bitching about it as well, nice gesture towards our resistance heroes :shame:
http://www.rtvnh.nl/nieuws/laatstenieuws.asp#item54981
:wall:
I guess intolerance is only acceptable when it is against Christians.
It is amazingly difficult to juggle so many discontented non-americans. :juggle2:
I thought all was fresh and fruity with the muslims in the states? This kinda surprises me, you are the first to say this. Here we owe it to ourselves because someone decided it would be a great idea to open the borders for thousands and thousands of immigrants that can read nor write and who's idea's are straight from idunnohowlongagobutlong and give them money the minute they leave the plane, and in case they got homesick their entire village could come as well. I guess our leaders thought that once the work was done they would be thrilled to go back to the desert herding sheep after a life of luxory. Was good for the economy for some reason, somehow :laugh4:
So let me get this straight: The muslim states are Europe's Mexico? Using this as a basis for projection into the future, I can safely say America will be exactly like Holland by the time Bush is done with his amnesty crap.
Not all, the Turkish people are generally doing fine, they have their own networks and take care for themselves. It are mostly north africans, don't want anything, won't do anything. Only causing trouble, the 'shut up and feed me' mentality, and there is the leftwing 'ok' mentality. Europe is a mess.
Well its always a good to hear that politicians in europe also have no backbones. I'm kind of wondering if we as a species should start classifyng these "politicians" as a distinctly seperate branch of the primeape family. They obviously have mutated far far from their Homo-sapien bretheren.
Yet another reason to abandon the old world for the new.
I'm sure if this keeps up in denmark, somewere on the east coast they'll be a Little Denmark Town.
ban wooden shoes
Completely agree burn those planks, thats got to be horribly uncomfortable to wear.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
03-04-2006, 17:42
Completely agree burn those planks, thats got to be horribly uncomfortable to wear.
I think you're meant to stuff them with straw to make them comfortable and well fitting.
Crazed Rabbit
03-04-2006, 17:49
Hey Fragony, I know a cozy little town founded by Dutch immigrants. Most of the people there have Dutch surnames (Van something or other), they are mostly strong protestants, conservative, and they even have a little windmill in the middle of town. Plus, its on the west coast, so about as far away from the Middle East you could get in America.
What is wrong with these people? It is not multiculturalism when you attempt to eradicate one culture to accommodate the other.
Well put.
Crazed Rabbit
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-04-2006, 19:49
What is wrong with these people? It is not multiculturalism when you attempt to eradicate one culture to accommodate the other. :dizzy2:
You're right and getting rid of the cross won't eradicate the culture either.
I was watching with interest the burning of Danish flags and wondering if I should send the fundamenalists a memo about Danish history.
Sooner or later the people of Europe will elect people who will be ultra-patriotic and all hell will brake loose. I give it 20 years tops for official Two Way Holy War.
Guess who took offence on a christian symbol in a dutch town on a monument that has stood there for 50 years, yes, correct. Soooooo, now there will be a new monument without the christian symbol, we wouldn't want to offend our muslim citizins with such trivial things as our culture and heritage. The politicians who insist that the real problem with the dutch is our fear of the islam didn't waste any time collaborating, thank you very much. wtf do the multicultists want? Let's tear down the windmills, poisen the tulips, ban wooden shoes, burn the churches and call the Netherlands Dutchiestan from now on. Anything mildly nationalistic is an offence to the great new world order of peace love and understanding, forget who you are, we will tell you what you have to become.
In the meantime, this is being build. Biggest of europe.
http://democrates.net/data/upimages/westermoskeet.jpg
rant over.
Well we all have a cross to bear. a pun.
In the United States the ACLU has been for years attempting to remove christian symbols of history from certain places. (check out the removing of a symbol from a county seal in California.)
doc_bean
03-04-2006, 21:52
I've said it before and I'll say it again: You Dutch are insane !
But what I really don't get is why so many Muslims are moving from the Netherlands to Belgium, it always seemed like you were far more accommodating to them while we've always had more of a don't ask don't tell attitude about religion. Strange, and slightly worrying if it's the extremists that are moving here :help:
I've said it before and I'll say it again: You Dutch are insane !
But what I really don't get is why so many Muslims are moving from the Netherlands to Belgium, it always seemed like you were far more accommodating to them while we've always had more of a don't ask don't tell attitude about religion. Strange, and slightly worrying if it's the extremists that are moving here :help:
Their job in The Netherlands is complete. :smoking:
KukriKhan
03-04-2006, 22:01
from Redleg...(check out the removing of a symbol from a county seal in California.)
Wiki article on our local cross-removal controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Soledad
The thing has been there since 1913, in one form or another. Pic of the current one:
https://jimcee.homestead.com/mt-soledad-cross.jpg
One of the neighboring towns had a representation of the Mt. Soledad cross on it's official seal (which adorned its police cars and city vehicles). There was some (heated) discussion about it last year - I think it ended in a stalemate.
edit: Fragony: you don't mean by
In the meantime, this is being build. Biggest of europe. that your government is funding that construction?
Zalmoxis
03-04-2006, 22:04
Guess who took offence on a christian symbol in a dutch town on a monument that has stood there for 50 years, yes, correct. Soooooo, now there will be a new monument without the christian symbol, we wouldn't want to offend our muslim citizins with such trivial things as our culture and heritage. The politicians who insist that the real problem with the dutch is our fear of the islam didn't waste any time collaborating, thank you very much. wtf do the multicultists want? Let's tear down the windmills, poisen the tulips, ban wooden shoes, burn the churches and call the Netherlands Dutchiestan from now on. Anything mildly nationalistic is an offence to the great new world order of peace love and understanding, forget who you are, we will tell you what you have to become.
In the meantime, this is being build. Biggest of europe.
http://democrates.net/data/upimages/westermoskeet.jpg
rant over.
This has to stop. It seems to me that muslims have the ability to argue against anything Christian, such as crosses and the small parody cartoon, while those who follow Islam are given a free hand in portraying or saying anything about Christian beliefs, nations, people etc. It is hypocritical, and very annoying as they can use the argument of free speech when they do it, but can just ban it when we do.
So in their attempt to satisfy a minority, the government starts taking away things from the majority. :oops:
ajaxfetish
03-05-2006, 06:40
Much as I love and respect the concept of tolerance, the hypocrisy of one-sided tolerance makes me sick.
Ajax
AntiochusIII
03-05-2006, 06:59
I wonder how many people in the thread realize that Dariush is a Muslim?
:stupido2:
Probably most, "We are old folk." - Remarque.
Of course, it only shows that many European politicians are stupid, and that their presumption that all Muslims are fundies are even more stupid, and that Muslim fundies are the most stupid, and that Muslim moderates are, of course, not stupid.
Also, like somebody said, if the "people of Europe" go nuts from the pressure and break in their old habits to elect really, really crazy parties into power, all Hell shall break lose right from Inferno. I often observe European patrons of the Org complaining about the increasingly messed up condition of their nations "due to the immigrants...blah blah." That is not a good sign.
Oh, and what's with the Cross? I mean, come on, I'm an Atheist if there is one, but I don't care about the Cross at all. You can have it on my bedroom's wall and it would not bother me in the least. The Japanese, around 1-2% Christian, even have a sort of fetish for the Cross. It is among the coolest symbols around, especially if you are a Templar. :2thumbsup:
Removing it on the PC ground is sooo uncool.
Byzantine Prince
03-05-2006, 07:03
My guess is that it has nothing to do with the muslims and more to do with trying to secularize the country and not having religion purttruding in people's lives. I think it is a good thing. I say remove them all.
As for the shoes, those will be pretty hard to ban. :laugh4:
doc_bean
03-05-2006, 10:52
I wonder how many people in the thread realize that Dariush is a Muslim?
What does that have to do with anything ?
The problem isn't the so much the muslims (whatever fragony might say) but the politicians (and society at large) not knowing how to deal with them. :oops:
edit: Fragony: you don't mean by that your government is funding that construction?
Yup, they are. But it is such a great initiative, it is the first mosk where men and women walk through the same door! Teh enlightment! And it is designed by jews! R.E.S.P.E.C.T. And it will be made with dutch bricks, cost efficient! It will solve everything! :dizzy2:
LeftEyeNine
03-05-2006, 12:11
Sorry if already replied but who asked for such stupidity like the removal of Christian cross from the monument ?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-05-2006, 12:43
My guess is that it has nothing to do with the muslims and more to do with trying to secularize the country and not having religion purttruding in people's lives. I think it is a good thing. I say remove them all.
As for the shoes, those will be pretty hard to ban. :laugh4:
If the country was truely secular the cross would not matter because it would just be a monument.
A cross is a good monument, you can see it from a long way away.
Byzantine Prince
03-05-2006, 19:35
The cross is a symbol of Christianity, and if you fill the whole place with corsses that is not secularism. The fact that it was there before the country was secular is irrelevent. I think that they are doing the right thing.
The cross is a symbol of Christianity, and if you fill the whole place with corsses that is not secularism. The fact that it was there before the country was secular is irrelevent. I think that they are doing the right thing.
It`s a difference between building new crosses, and tearing down old ones.
It`s a piece of western culture, so it should have stayed.
Kagemusha
03-05-2006, 20:15
I agree with Viking.
I agree with Viking.
Us Scandinavians should unite. ~:grouphug:
Kagemusha
03-05-2006, 20:42
I agree with Viking.:2thumbsup:
Forget about EU, all us Scandinavians need, is the Scandianavian Union. :shakehands:
Kagemusha
03-05-2006, 20:52
Forget about EU, all us Scandinavians need, is the Scandianavian Union. :shakehands:
I think so too.We have very same kind of societys and values.It would be the best choice for us.Leave the corrupted EU and start our own Union.We wouldnt be a superpower, but with our combined resources and economys we would manage up here pretty well.:shakehands:
Byzantine Prince
03-05-2006, 21:12
It`s a piece of western culture, so it should have stayed.
If we were to retain ALL of western culture we would have to bring back or retain other great things like stoning and burning people who dissagree with our religion, and also don't forget those trendy wars, and poverty.
Kagemusha
03-05-2006, 21:37
If we were to retain ALL of western culture we would have to bring back or retain other great things like stoning and burning people who dissagree with our religion, and also don't forget those trendy wars, and poverty.
Well just maybe we can consider ourselves what is worth preserving and whats not.Maybe use a thing called common sense?:book:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-05-2006, 21:42
The cross is a symbol of Christianity, and if you fill the whole place with corsses that is not secularism. The fact that it was there before the country was secular is irrelevent. I think that they are doing the right thing.
Its not about filling the place with crosses, its about being aloud to have crosses, cresents, Stars of David and whatever else and no one caring what the others are doing.
Thats secular freedom, removing crosses etc. is just equal oppression.
doc_bean
03-05-2006, 22:01
Forget about EU, all us Scandinavians need, is the Scandianavian Union. :shakehands:
...Can I join too ?
Tribesman
03-05-2006, 22:31
Frag , you is gettng upset over this .?
Yup, they are.
Would yu care to detail the Dutxh taxpaylding project ?ers contribution ,
I think so too.We have very same kind of societys and values.It would be the best choice for us.Leave the corrupted EU and start our own Union.We wouldnt be a superpower, but with our combined resources and economys we would manage up here pretty well.:shakehands:
Agreed... We could also call it Utopia, just to gall some of those people who always say "it's utopia to think..." ~;)
Anywa if we do can we leave the Swedish ban on national flags in classpitures? It is pretty much in the same league as this Dutch issue.
Fragony, I feel sorry for you. Not that I care much for the cross itself (despite my own religious inclination), but as noted it is part of your heritage and culture. We can't deny that part of our society is derectly or partially descended from the christian beliefs.
Our greatest momuments are in fact places of worship, the great cathedrals. Should those get struck down just because many of them aren't used for sermons anymore and multiculturalism demands that such blatant religious statements are wrong (unless actually used in which case it seems fine)?
I hope it never comes here. And I'm happy to report that Danish muslims haven't demanded anything like that. It is a sad fact they are not treated too nice by the media when they are in fact mostly... well Danish or trying to be Danish.
Samurai Waki
03-06-2006, 08:27
Theres a little Dutch "Colony" in Montana located between Three Forks and Bozeman, not surprisingly called New Amsterdam... pretty little town, wind mills and dairy farms and all that good stuff. Most people that live there are 2nd or 3rd generation dutch migrates but there are a few 1st Generation... I think the town has like 2200 people in it or close therein.
Rodion Romanovich
03-06-2006, 11:25
If we were to retain ALL of western culture we would have to bring back or retain other great things like stoning and burning people who dissagree with our religion, and also don't forget those trendy wars, and poverty.
I think monuments and artwork are parts of culture that should be kept, for two reasons.
- Each culture has developed it's own style of artwork and generally those monuments etc. that remain are some of the best productions of their style. Such styles took a long time to develop, and very little artwork made today can match the remaining monuments and old buildings etc. we have left - what is left is often the best of it's time.
- Monuments remind us of the past - of stoning and burning, as well as other things. If we remove all old culture we'll not only remove some of the most beautiful art we have, we'll also quickly forget how easy it is for a nation to end up in dictatorship and intolerance. For the masses who don't read that much history, the monuments of the past fill an important role in helping them making history less abstract. While in theory it's a beautiful thought that we should leave a horrible past behind us by removing old symbols, in reality I think it would make it easier for the past to repeat itself if we didn't keep them.
Frag , you is gettng upset over this .?
Oh you noticed huh ~;)
Would yu care to detail the Dutxh taxpaylding project ?ers contribution
Couldn't find any details on the actual costs of the project, but this thing is going to be huge, there are several parasitical multicultural organisations behind it that also have to be payed, it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be a 30 million euro, maybe even more.
Vladimir
03-06-2006, 15:16
~:rolleyes:
Outrageous. The result of local politicians caving in to fundamentalists.
It is not “politically correct” to remove that cross. It is idiotic.
I just like quoting this guy. It's just spineless politicians taking the path of least resistance. If they kept it in place they would probably be called...well...whatever the Dutch equivalent of a cowboy is.
That money could have built a new school instead. If I lived near the large mosqé I would have been tempted to put it on fire just to
demonstrate against how the state first take my money and then buy things I don't want. Why do politicians hate our western values?? Why must everything be so PC? :furious3:
Louis VI the Fat
03-06-2006, 15:34
Us Scandinavians should unite. ~:grouphug:Gah! Too late.
You're all our slaves already, toiling and sweating 'till all eternity for the greatness of the Franco-German axis.
Consider it a payback for all them Viking raids.
:ballchain: :whip:
That money could have built a new school instead.
It is even worse, 200 meters from there is a church that needed renovation, but there was no more money, I wonder why :laugh4:
and it is tempting huh, but don't even think of it, because that alone will get you 2 years in prison here in Dutchiestan, yes that was no joke, just thinking about it. Raping a 12 year old girl on the other hand will get you about 4 months in an open institution.
Kagemusha
03-06-2006, 15:36
Gah! Too late.
You're all our slaves already, toiling and sweating 'till all eternity for the greatness of the Franco-German axis.
Consider it a payback for all them Viking raids.
:ballchain: :whip:
Maybe its time then to reinstitute those old vacation habbits.~;)
It is even worse, 200 meters from there is a church that needed renovation, but there was no more money, I wonder why :laugh4:
and it is tempting huh, but don't even think of it, because that alone will get you 2 years in prison here in Dutchiestan, yes that was no joke, just thinking about it. Raping a 12 year old girl on the other hand will get you about 4 months in an open institution.
What the hell happened to common sense?? It is the same in Sweden. A time ago a man stood on his month-old baby's head till the baby died. The penalty was not even a year in prison... That sickens me! I can't describe with words how much I hate the left... :no: They are not human!
The cross is a symbol of Christianity, and if you fill the whole place with corsses that is not secularism. The fact that it was there before the country was secular is irrelevent. I think that they are doing the right thing.
You have no faith, but remember that a lot of people do. In this case I am sad to see you applauding a case of religious persecution.
“Secularizing” society should not necessitate hardship on religious people, nor censoring religious symbols (the French Hijab case springs to mind). In the past years I have learned that those who wage an atheist Jihad share the same mentality as those who wage a religious one.
And why desecrate a monument to fallen heroes in the name of secularism? Or, in this case, why desecrate a monument to fallen heroes because of religious bigotry? (it is frightening that some politicians actually consider it politically correct to pander to the loud fundamentalists.)
It may not have been as extreme as the Buddhas of Bamiyan incident, but it is outrageous nonetheless.
master of the puppets
03-06-2006, 17:24
the cross is the everlasting sysmbol of... TORTURE. hundreds of thousands of christians and jews were laid across the cross for there misdeeds to the romans.
but really how stupid, the muslims have become spoiled children who make demands that are always met, noone tells them no, its pathetic. they should declare the country a free religious state and put the star of david, a cross and a cresent on the flag to show equality...uh oh, here come the athiests to ruin the idea.:sweatdrop:
...Can I join too ?
How much scandinavity is it in you? :inquisitive:
Gah! Too late.
You're all our slaves already, toiling and sweating 'till all eternity for the greatness of the Franco-German axis.
Consider it a payback for all them Viking raids.
:ballchain: :whip:
Norway has still not been eaten by the big EU monster, so we are ready to free our Scandinavian brothers. :charge:
LeftEyeNine
03-06-2006, 19:19
the cross is the everlasting sysmbol of... TORTURE. hundreds of thousands of christians and jews were laid across the cross for there misdeeds to the romans.
Mate, you are missing the worldwide accepted point that Cross is the symbol of Christianism. And, for sure, "touching" a monument whatever it is carrying on with itself is stupid. What's more it is the Cross here and look how people get irritated with the action. This may satisfy for one but annoy the double of it. Absolutely stupid.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-06-2006, 20:05
How much scandinavity is it in you? :inquisitive:
Norway has still not been eaten by the big EU monster, so we are ready to free our Scandinavian brothers. :charge:
While you're at it could you free your English Cousins as well?
Failing that my family is Swedish on my father's side so maybe you could just send a longboat for us.
Seriously though, I thought Denmark and Sweden were relatively free of Euro-disease and still relatively sane. You didn't take the Euro after all.
While you're at it could you free your English Cousins as well?
Failing that my family is Swedish on my father's side so maybe you could just send a longboat for us.
Seriously though, I thought Denmark and Sweden were relatively free of Euro-disease and still relatively sane. You didn't take the Euro after all.
Oh, no... if they`d taken the Euro they would probably been lost for ever. Will taken som time to recover Finland, but it`ll be worth it.
Louis VI the Fat
03-06-2006, 20:30
While you're at it could you free your English Cousins as well?No, I'm afraid we can't allow that. :knight:
We'll leave them Northerners in peace. We might even consider granting them some autonomy if they agree on remaining quiet and subordinate; and will send us our yearly CAP-cheque.
The English though, we'll keep in a state of permanent subservience.
ajaxfetish
03-06-2006, 22:18
I think you should name your Scandinavian Union the 'Viking Confederation' and reinstitute raiding and piracy. The underbelly of Europe has gone soft again and is ready for the taking.
:viking:
Ajax
ajaxfetish
03-06-2006, 22:19
“Secularizing” society should not necessitate hardship on religious people, nor censoring religious symbols (the French Hijab case springs to mind). In the past years I have learned that those who wage an atheist Jihad share the same mentality as those who wage a religious one.
Very well said by the way.
Ajax
Tribesman
03-06-2006, 22:31
Couldn't find any details on the actual costs of the project
Really , yet you claim the tax payer is footing the bill for building the mosque ?
it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be a 30 million euro, maybe even more.
Wow 30 million ...are the Irish government building it , thats some serious overrun on the project .
Its 13 million including the land purchase .
Care to guess how much of your tax money is funding the construction ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-06-2006, 22:34
No, I'm afraid we can't allow that. :knight:
We'll leave them Northerners in peace. We might even consider granting them some autonomy if they agree on remaining quiet and subordinate; and will send us our yearly CAP-cheque.
The English though, we'll keep in a state of permanent subservience.
Now would be a really good time for the Once and Future King to make an appearence.
:charge:
Vladimir
03-06-2006, 22:41
I think you should name your Scandinavian Union the 'Viking Confederation' and reinstitute raiding and piracy. The underbelly of Europe has gone soft again and is ready for the taking.
:viking:
Ajax
That's too true to be funny. Damnit! We're going to have to re-Christianize the Scandinavians again.
That's too true to be funny. Damnit! We're going to have to re-Christianize the Scandinavians again.
Times have changed. Break out the lemonade and polite conversation!
With regard to the Netherlands changing from a tolerant society into one filled with 'intolerance' on the one hand and 'extreme unilateral-multicultulturalism' on the other hand, I think it is too easily forgotten that Dutch tolerant society existed only so shortly. Until the early 1960's Dutch society was divided into a whole spectrum of different groups (Catholics, different kinds of Protestants, Socialists, Liberals, etc.) who deliberately avoided each other as much as possible and actually did take offense of each other if the occasion called for it. For example, many open manifestations of Catholic beliefs were held to be an abomination by many Protestants, and the Catholic bishops once ordained every Catholic who used a socialist service excommunicated. Society was divided in every possible means, with different shops, sportsclubs, parties, radiobroadcasters, newspapers, etc. for every group. Only the 60's and especially television changed much of this, the more so when society became less attached to the church. (with regard to the cross: Christians are a minority in the Netherlands too).
Dutch tolerance was thus already fragile in the first place, I think.
To those that think that the cross symbolizes torture ... I would rather say it symbolizes martyrdom ... what better symbol then to put on the monument of those who gave their lives for what they believed in? Is it a religious symbol in that context? Perhaps it is, but with that explanation it is less likely to be viewed as one.
I am atheist, I may see it as a symbol of a religion I do not particualrly like, but I do not mind it. I do not bother people with my views and am not bothered when other people express their views, as long as they do it in moderation.
Four years before WTC, Samuel Huntington wrote the Conflict of Civilizations, saying that the wars of the 21st century will be of a religious nature. I thought the idea funny at the time ... now, it seems to be shaping up to be an uncomfortably accurate prophecy.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-07-2006, 02:15
I have said that we will have new Crussades in 20 years or less. Its very sad but I really don't see any other outcome in the long run.
On the plus side a big war might shake up society and cure some other problems.
Papewaio
03-07-2006, 02:46
I don't really see any Crusades... that would require fundamentalist idiots from within Europe and USA... then again given the Kansas school board leading the charge of idiocy it could happen.
I say let the fundies wipe each other out and leave the world to the pastafarians. :gah:
Azi Tohak
03-07-2006, 04:28
I thought all was fresh and fruity with the muslims in the states? This kinda surprises me, you are the first to say this. Here we owe it to ourselves because someone decided it would be a great idea to open the borders for thousands and thousands of immigrants that can read nor write and who's idea's are straight from idunnohowlongagobutlong and give them money the minute they leave the plane, and in case they got homesick their entire village could come as well. I guess our leaders thought that once the work was done they would be thrilled to go back to the desert herding sheep after a life of luxory. Was good for the economy for some reason, somehow :laugh4:
I did hear (on the radio, that is why I don't have a link) that at the University of North Carolina (yup, probably the Chapel Hill one), an Iranian student tried to attack people while driving his vehicle (I think it was an SUV). The radio voice said he did it to protest the treatment of Muslims. By who exactly, I'm not sure.
Azi
With regard to the Netherlands changing from a tolerant society into one filled with 'intolerance' on the one hand and 'extreme unilateral-multicultulturalism' on the other hand, I think it is too easily forgotten that Dutch tolerant society existed only so shortly. Until the early 1960's Dutch society was divided into a whole spectrum of different groups (Catholics, different kinds of Protestants, Socialists, Liberals, etc.) who deliberately avoided each other as much as possible and actually did take offense of each other if the occasion called for it. For example, many open manifestations of Catholic beliefs were held to be an abomination by many Protestants, and the Catholic bishops once ordained every Catholic who used a socialist service excommunicated. Society was divided in every possible means, with different shops, sportsclubs, parties, radiobroadcasters, newspapers, etc. for every group. Only the 60's and especially television changed much of this, the more so when society became less attached to the church. (with regard to the cross: Christians are a minority in the Netherlands too).
Dutch tolerance was thus already fragile in the first place, I think.
That is why it is called tollerance and not acceptance. Think the world is flat if you want, just don't bother me with it and I won't bother you. When people do start bothering us, we have a problem.
That is why it is called tollerance and not acceptance. Think the world is flat if you want, just don't bother me with it and I won't bother you. When people do start bothering us, we have a problem.
Quite right. I would agree with you, and it is what we did with most immigrants before the 2001-2002 debacles. (I distinctly remember the time when immigrant issues and issues about Islam didn't rule every newsbroadcast and every newspaper...sigh...).
However, it seems to me that now, with 'the world becoming smaller', everybody knowing (but not understanding) about everbody else through internet, television, public discussion, etc., that the 'bear is loose' (Dutch expression) and it is impossible to put it back in it's cage again. We either have to accept it or shoot it... (note: shooting is a metaphore)
Quite right. I would agree with you, and it is what we did with most immigrants before the 2001-2002 debacles. (I distinctly remember the time when immigrant issues and issues about Islam didn't rule every newsbroadcast and every newspaper...sigh...).
However, it seems to me that now, with 'the world becoming smaller', everybody knowing (but not understanding) about everbody else through internet, television, public discussion, etc., that the 'bear is loose' (Dutch expression) and it is impossible to put it back in it's cage again. We either have to accept it or shoot it... (note: shooting is a metaphore)
The digital democracy, people are finding eachother. But the fact that it is now such an issue, is the result of years of cowardice of those that represent us. The dutch aren't tolerant, we are problably the most conservative people of western europe, no matter what the carrotmuchers on the leftwing are forcefeeding us. Most of us just don't like change.
The digital democracy, people are finding eachother. But the fact that it is now such an issue, is the result of years of cowardice of those that represent us. The dutch aren't tolerant, we are problably the most conservative people of western europe, no matter what the carrotmuchers on the leftwing are forcefeeding us. Most of us just don't like change.
Although I'm a leftie myself (no hard feelings :2thumbsup: ), I think you've got it there. Problem is what it is with most Western societies: change has come incredibly fast in the past 50 years, and people in general like to keep their lives the way they were if their lives were fairly reasonable (or they would like to keep at least the parts they did like). However, this has proved to be impossible, and maybe even the more so in the Netherlands. Up to World War 2, the Netherlands were the most backward country in Western Europe (our 'Long Nineteenth Century' lasted to 1940/1950 instead of the summer of 1914, as it was in most countries who were in involved in WW1), and since then we have rapidly evolved into one of the most liberal societies in the world, in about 4-5 decades. The bubble has to burst eventually...
Although I'm a leftie myself (no hard feelings :2thumbsup: ), I think you've got it there.
No hard feelings, but I may have to kill you one day ~;)
The bubble has to burst eventually...
It will, tollerance is like a social contract, asking a Dutchman for respect is like asking a neocon to burn his national flag. Oh you juggle with herrings to please the moongod, how fascinating, now can I please have my steak? We are strongly individual beings, and leaving eachother in peace is the best way to live on a very small piece of earth, it is just common sense. What the lefties want is the same thing really, a social contract, but not all parties want to play ball. Two major unwritten rules are being broken, 1: the muslims want us to respect their religion, fat chance. 2: they just don't behave. To make it even worse, they combine these two and that pisses me off even more. When enough people realise that this social contract is futile, they seek aid from strong nationalistic politicians who can fix the problem so that we can once again ignore eachother in peace.
"that would require fundamentalist idiots from within Europe and USA"
... hah.... they are allready there. :laugh4:
Cronos Impera
03-07-2006, 15:41
Oh, the media is responsible for 2/3 of conflicts nowadays. If people didn't knew what was going on itn the world they would have been fewer bombings, fewer shootouts.Simple people in touch with the other cultures see them either as offensive and decadent (ordinary moslims) or threatning (ordinary christians). That is why the media is so idiotic, there can't be simpler solutions.
In Romania we have a significant muslim population too, but no religious conflicts have sprung up. Why, because romanians understand that ignorance is better than "Koombaya, we are one people."
In politics we need atheist, cold-hearted, pragmatic beaurocrats not thinkers, when politicians think they think badly.
And pagan extremist organizations are better than christian\fascist\muslim ones. They simply are immune to the conflict between the rest. No fists, no lyly flowers.
Byzantine Mercenary
03-07-2006, 16:04
well ive always thought that most conflicts are about gaining and keeping power, whether they are veiled with any ideology doen't matter, as long as people want power there will always be conflict.
As for this cross being removed i have heard so many similar storys, this is a memorial to the resiistance that we are talking about, people who risked their lives to stop an evil regime. I have a lot of respect for people who put themselves out like that, as do im sure most muslims.
Obviously someone wants to demonstrate their power by getting the cross removed but it doesn't seem like a religious matter to me and it would cetainly not be racist to stop them, just the same as it would not be racist to stop someone damaging a mosque.
“Secularizing” society should not necessitate hardship on religious people, nor censoring religious symbols (the French Hijab case springs to mind). In the past years I have learned that those who wage an atheist Jihad share the same mentality as those who wage a religious one.” It is here the mistake. The first law against veil wasn’t against the Muslim, but against the nuns, catholic inlthe late 19th Century were war between Religions and Secularist was raging in the French political landscape.... 100 years of the law of the Separations between State and Religions this year, and the Muslim weren't in France... If this law should be passed today, all will claim it would be against Muslim...:laugh4:
France has the first Muslim population of Europe, I wonder why if the Muslim Religion is so oppressed.:inquisitive:
It is a different culture: in France, religion is considered as oppression, an enemy of freedom, a totalitarism. In some other countries, religions are considered as a symbol of freedom. In France, the law protect the individuals who could be obliged to wear the hidjab, the young and weak Muslim girls.
And the hidjab is not a religious symbol at per se… For what I know, it is a habit, not a duty.
I think you should name your Scandinavian Union the 'Viking Confederation' and reinstitute raiding and piracy. The underbelly of Europe has gone soft again and is ready for the taking.
:viking:
Ajax
Noted. :stupido:
It is a different culture: in France, religion is considered as oppression, an enemy of freedom, a totalitarism. In some other countries, religions are considered as a symbol of freedom. In France, the law protect the individuals who could be obliged to wear the hidjab, the young and weak Muslim girls.
And the hidjab is not a religious symbol at per se… For what I know, it is a habit, not a duty. It is both. Some feel that it is a religious obligation to wear a headscarf, others do not. The point is that women should be free to choose for themselves.
But this is off-topic.
Louis VI the Fat
03-08-2006, 02:40
It is both. Some feel that it is a religious obligation to wear a headscarf, others do not.If it is a religious symbol, they can't wear the headscarf to school. If they wear it to make a fashion statement, they can cover themselves from head to toe in headscarves.
What protests there have been, have been presented under the banner of freedom of religion, not freedom of expression, or freedom of fahion taste. Those who wear the headscarf out of custom or tradition, have acquiesced in teh ban.
So, I'm sorry, in practice it's a clash between secularism and religion.
These women are free to choose for themselves to wear it or not, either out of relious obligation or out of customary tradition.
They enjoy freedom of conscience, but not the freedom to express their conscience anywhere they please. They can not claim the right to religious infringement of the secular public space. In return, the state can not claim the right to any secular infringement of the private space. That is, at home, in the church, mosque or synagogue you can do as you please.
I have learned that this sounds rather oppressive abroad. Oh, well. As Brenus said: "It is a different culture: in France, religion is considered as oppression, an enemy of freedom, a totalitarism"
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.