Can We Donate?

[oudysseos]

It seems increasingly unjust to me that I shelled out 40 euros for RTW (not gonna buy BI until a decent mod is ready- are you listening, CA?) while at the same time a small group of dedicated heroes are working for free and doing so with grace under the constant nagging and begging posts that we, the unworthy, keep throwing at them. The truth is that the Europa Barbarorum project is phenomenal in every way, and as far superior to vanilla RTW as Peter Jackson's LOTR is to Ralph Bakshi's (hey, once a fanboy...).
My point is, will the dev team consider setting up a paypal or something so that I and anybody else can contribute money for the upkeep of the project. I mean, the bandwith has to cost something. I know that there is a lot of antipathy (and rightly so) in the modding community to charging for mods, but that is a different thing than accepting donations freely given. Failing that, is there some concrete way that we can contribute to the project, aside from demanding that you include our own little pet ideas in the next patch I mean. I think that lots of us out here don't have the skills, time, or discipline to do models, skins, descriptions and the like but I for one would donate money if it's needed.
I hope that I haven't opened a can of worms and that if you don't want to go down this road that at least you'll take my intention for the gift.
Thanks for all the work. Can't wait for the patch!

[Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom]

Yea, I think this could cause like legal problems??

[hellenes]

Yea, I think this could cause like legal problems??

I dont think so, none is charging anyone for anything.
If we know that the money goes for server payment and for the website maintainnace its all good.

Hellenes

[Equilibrium]

I'll give khelvan a hint about this, maybe he'll look into this thread soon...

[Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom]

I wouldent mind sending money, the mod is well worth it, if they could just get this patch out

[Reverend Joe]

Don't worry about money. Just mail Khelvan 5 pounds of high-grade Dutch marijuana. He'll know what to do with it.

:jester:

[Big_John]

send all monies and women directly to me.

[Idomeneas]

money corrupts in my opinion. i know RTR had a donation page. What i found very annoying is that they never said the exact ammount of money needed for their hosting services but kept receiving offers. Well sorry but that stinks.

If the team needs something they can ask and im sure there are fans out there that can help. Someone may be employed or even own hosting services, someone may be daddys boy and dont mind to donate the whole ammount and more. Modding communities are setting an example by providing high quality goods absolutely free. We dont wanna destroy that do we? So im totally against money not only in EB and various project that i watch as fan but also in project HEGEMONIA where im member.

[PSYCHO V]

Thanks for the sentiment, but we are doing this mod for you guys / community. As such, we'd like to keep this free.


my2bob

[Moros]

Don't worry about money. Just mail Khelvan 5 pounds of high-grade Dutch marijuana. He'll know what to do with it.

:jester:
that's what I like about living a few miles from the Netherlands. ~D

[Radier]

Thanks for the sentiment, but we are doing this mod for you guys / community. As such, we'd like to keep this free.


my2bob

My respect for EB soon reaches the clouds... :bow: This project is one of the coolest things I have ever seen on the web.

[Reenk Roink]

Well I can give some candies and kisses...

[LordElrond]

I'll give away my sister.

[jerby]

that's what I like about living a few miles from the Netherlands. ~D
hey!

[Bar Kochba]

RTR have paypal

[khelvan]

Apparently there is some internal dissention on whether or not we should accept donations. However, as the person hosting our domain, FTP, and website is paying for them out of his own pocket, at least temporarily there is a donation button on the website, for the purpose of paying the hosting fees.

[oudysseos]

I certainly am going to donate now as I had already suspected that someone was paying for the website on their own. I am happy to do so with absolutely no strings attached, so the following question is independent of this and the answer will have no impact on my actions, but I was wondering how much it cost to keep the website going? Do you guys keep accounts or is it crass to ask? It's just that I am a chef and run my own business so I know how important overhead is. Anyways I'm delighted to be able to help.

[dark]

money corrupts in my opinion. i know RTR had a donation page. What i found very annoying is that they never said the exact ammount of money needed for their hosting services but kept receiving offers. Well sorry but that stinks.

Yes, RTR had a donation button to pay for hosting services. Now we are recieving free hosting, so we have removed the donation, but we do occasionaly accept donations, for example when we needed money for buying our new forum liscence.

Personally, i see no problems for a mod to have a donations button, as long as the donators knows what their money will be used for.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yes, RTR had a donation button to pay for hosting services. Now we are recieving free hosting, so we have removed the donation, but we do occasionaly accept donations, for example when we needed money for buying our new forum liscence.

Personally, i see no problems for a mod to have a donations button, as long as the donators knows what their money will be used for.That's definitely interesting to know. I think if we found ourselves in that situation (free hosting) that we would not have any reason to accept donations also.

[PSYCHO V]

That's definitely interesting to know. I think if we found ourselves in that situation (free hosting) that we would not have any reason to accept donations also.

Too bloody right! Does RTR care to share?

[Trithemius]

Too bloody right! Does RTR care to share?

Why be indignant? If you disagree with their donation-soliciting, just don't give them any?

[Chester]

money corrupts in my opinion. i know RTR had a donation page. What i found very annoying is that they never said the exact ammount of money needed for their hosting services but kept receiving offers. Well sorry but that stinks.

How is it a bad thing? I think people like you hold the modding community to an unrealistic high. As if it's so noble, pure, and true of heart, that something as petty like asking for donations would taint the whole thing.

I'm going to stop-short of calling you cheap, but I will call you inconsiderate. If they have met their expenses, they can choose to stop taking donations, or use the spill over for future projects.


Modding communities are setting an example by providing high quality goods absolutely free.

No they are not. This is not the first time something has come for free, and nobody is looking to the modding communities for moral/business guidance. Furthermore, this MOD is absolutely free and the idea of donations leading to manditory payments is a slippery slope argument.

Get this, Idomeneas, the beauty of the donation is that you don't need to pay. If you think this mod is high quality and you want to help them out, then donate. It's the players way of saying "thank you" and "I helped". Don't go around blowing up the modding commuinty as some sort of unspolied venture. It's lame.

[Trithemius]

My keen awareness of the invisible realm allows me to discern the hands of the moderators at work nearby... in line with this I will try to be civil, and also clear.

Khelvan has already mentioned the legal reasons why modders cannot charge others for downloading their mods, the idea that this could happen - entirely aside from if it would - is totally ridiculous, unless suddenly every lawyer employed by a software company was to mysteriously vanish. The implication that the solicitation of donations neccessarily and inexorably leads to demands for compensation for modders' work is similarly ridiculous.

I personally think that the kind of people who work on these mods are good folks, they are not saints (or your preferred selfless moral exemplars). They put their time, effort, and creativity (and not to mention their patience - I am sure that some of the EB folks look at threads on this very forum and think "WHY DO I BOTHER?" from time to time) into something that they then give away to us for free - and all because they want to. I don't think this means that modders have to cover the costs of providing this material for free download. I don't think that soliciting donations for the community of users for maintaining websites and forums, or for paying for the bandwidth to actually let people get their hands on the mod is a bad thing, or an immoral thing - I will go so far as saying that is it a good thing, if it encourages the modders to keep modding and continues to allow me to rampage around in a TW game that is almost all I could wish it to be (for now at least - I never said I wasn't fickle in my tastes ;)). Furthermore, people who imply that others who believe that donations might be a good thing are bad people are, in fact, bad people themselves. Sitting on one's high horse and saying, in a sweeping way, that asking for donations to pay neccessary costs is in some way exploitation of the community is not the right thing to do; and neither is making grand self-aggrandising farewells.

I will close with a request for some perspective on this issue and a repetition of my point:

I, as a user of EB, already enjoy the fruits of others' labour freely given and without expectation of compensation (except a bit of bug-reporting, but I am sure that helps me as much as them!). I think it is manifestly unjust of me to then expect that, in addition to everything else they have given towards making this project available to me, they should also fork over their cash-money to pay for hosting and bandwidth for downloads. I think that anyone who feels that it is not is deluding themselves about the nature of justice.

Those of you that have not already started flame-replies (or fallen asleep), thanks for your attention.

EDIT: You'd think you'd pay more attention if you were making a post this long - but you'd be wrong... >_<

[oudysseos]

Thanks Chester. I thought the whole voluntary unsolicited free-will show-your-appreciation donation idea was non-controversial.
Guess I was wrong, but I still don't understand why there's any controversy. If you don't want to donate then don't. Simple as that.
Too bad for the people paying for it all though, and also for the people (like me) who would like to help and feel a part of the effort. Too bad for me too, I guess. So, just who benefits from forbidding voluntary donations?
I also give money to charities on a regular basis. I don't like being solicited for charity but I try to rise above my annoyance to conside the merits of the cause. Would that be so hard in this case?

[khelvan]

Why be indignant? If you disagree with their donation-soliciting, just don't give them any?Indignant? He was saying that if we got free hosting, we wouldn't be asking for donations. How is that indignant?

On accepting donations, there is no controversy at all.

[Trithemius]

Indignant? He was saying that if we got free hosting, we wouldn't be asking for donations. How is that indignant?

"Too bloody right!" seemed to express indignance to me? Perhaps I interpreted incorrectly but I am not sure that the post is as unambiguous as you seem to think it is.

[QUOTE=khelvan]On accepting donations, there is no controversy at all.

Which is as it should be, at least in my opinion.

[Ludens]

Thanks Chester. I thought the whole voluntary unsolicited free-will show-your-appreciation donation idea was non-controversial.
Guess I was wrong, but I still don't understand why there's any controversy. If you don't want to donate then don't. Simple as that.
Too bad for the people paying for it all though, and also for the people (like me) who would like to help and feel a part of the effort. Too bad for me too, I guess. So, just who benefits from forbidding voluntary donations?
Well, R:TR did get into trouble with donations for keeping up their site. The man responsible for them broke with the team and kept the site (and the donations?) so the team had to find a new one. I guess lt1956 is afraid something similar might happen.

[Chester]

RTR got in trouble from who? CA?

There situation is different, they had a deplorable SOB on their team that cheated them. I wouldn't conclude that donations, after the RTR mishap, can cause harm to the EB team in the same manner, if at all.

[Trithemius]

RTR got in trouble from who? CA?

There situation is different, they had a deplorable SOB on their team that cheated them. I wouldn't conclude that donations, after the RTR mishap, can cause harm to the EB team in the same manner, if at all.

Social contracts don't work if one party abruptly chooses not to participate in them. i.e. You can't blame the system for the jerks.