Questions for Muslims at the org

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Hey, ive studied Islam a little bit and with the events of recent times everyones been talking about Islam a lot. There are just some things i was wondering

1. Muslims say that you believe Jesus was a prophet, right? what aspects of his teachings do you follow?

2. Why isn't there a messiah in Islam, didn't the prophets before Muhammed predict one?

3. Why can't Jews and Cristians be considered Muslims if they also pray to the God of the old testament that Muslims worship?

Im not trying to be condesending i honestly want to know the ansers to these questions, thanks...

[Ice]

Hey, ive studied Islam a little bit and with the events of recent times everyones been talking about Islam a lot. There are just some things i was wondering

1. Muslims say that you believe Jesus was a prophet, right? what aspects of his teachings do you follow?

2. Why isn't there a messiah in Islam, didn't the prophets before Muhammed predict one?

3. Why can't Jews and Cristians be considered Muslims if they also pray to the God of the old testament that Muslims worship?

Im not trying to be condesending i honestly want to know the ansers to these questions, thanks...

Well I think I can answer three. Christians and Jews do not believe or practice many of the things that Muslims do. Although they share similarities, they aren't the same thing.

[AntiochusIII]

Well I think I can answer three. Christians and Jews do not believe or practice many of the things that Muslims do. Although they share similarities, they aren't the same thing.That's not exactly what he is looking for...

I mean, I think he was trying to explore the doctrine differences between the religions which have the same origin. So his question, by their nature, is specific.

Unfortunately, my knowledge of the Qur'an is marginal at best, nor am I a Muslim. Therefore, I am useless here. :bow:

[KukriKhan]

This may help you out
http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html
differences between religions (and similarities).

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Let's all wait for Dariush...

[master of the puppets]

and while your at it, what is the official stance in islam regarding women, there mens equa;s right.

and one more, would muhammed approve of the modern day mulahs.

[Divinus Arma]

This is a good idea for a thread! :2thumbsup:

Let's do a dialogue on the differences between the major religions. Kudos to you, B.M. :2thumbsup:

[GoreBag]

and while your at it, what is the official stance in islam regarding women, there mens equa;s right.

and one more, would muhammed approve of the modern day mulahs.

There is no official stance. Is there an official stance from Christianity on abortion?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

and while your at it, what is the official stance in islam regarding women, there mens equa;s right.

and one more, would muhammed approve of the modern day mulahs.

well we were always taught that Muslims believe women are equal to men, but different, most of the rules regarding women in Islam are supposed to be for their protection, a muslim could probably give a better anser though...

[Byzantine Mercenary]

This may help you out
http://muslim-canada.org/islam_christianity.html
differences between religions (and similarities).

Thanks for the link :bow:

heres an excerpt i found particularly interesting

''Islam welcomes and even encourages every group, Christian, Jewish, Magian or other to have its own tribunals presided over by its own judges, in order to have its own laws applied in all branches of human affairs, civil as well as criminal. This is a characteristic feature of the Quranic legislation which accords judicial autonomy to different minority communities living under the Muslim rule. How faithfully the Muslims of later generations have followed these principles in running their governments is a matter of history. History will also judge Christian, Jewish and other governments of later generations on their adherence to their principles!''

[Byzantine Mercenary]

are there realy no muslims at the org? Dariush, where are you?

[Zain]

There is no official stance. Is there an official stance from Christianity on abortion?

This has already been answered once, but i'd like to add. Like someone said, The major churches condemn them. It should be condemned, because one of the ten commandments states that Murder is bad, and Abortion is Murder, so therefore, it's Bad.

I'm done... :smile:

-ZainDustin

[Divinus Arma]

are there realy no muslims at the org? Dariush, where are you?

I think Lefy Eye Nine is a Masoleum. I also think (could be wrong) that Mouzapherefe (sic) is Muslimicalicious.

[Dâriûsh]

Well, I am not an Islam expert, but here goes. :sweatdrop:


1. Muslims say that you believe Jesus was a prophet, right? what aspects of his teachings do you follow? “Thou shall have no other God but…” The monotheism aspect.


2. Why isn't there a messiah in Islam, didn't the prophets before Muhammed predict one? Messiah as in son of God or a prophet? The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is considered the last prophet of whom Jesus (pbuh) spoke. Muslims do not believe in a son of God.



3. Why can't Jews and Cristians be considered Muslims if they also pray to the God of the old testament that Muslims worship? They are the people of the book, I think they are just considered misguided.


Im not trying to be condesending i honestly want to know the ansers to these questions, thanks... Not at all condescending. They are fair questions. ~:)


You might find a better answer here: Jesus in the Qur'an (http://www.journeytoislam.com/comparative/jesus%20in%20the%20glorious%20quran.htm)

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Well, I am not an Islam expert, but here goes. :sweatdrop:

“Thou shall have no other God but…” The monotheism aspect.

Messiah as in son of God or a prophet? The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is considered the last prophet of whom Jesus (pbuh) spoke. Muslims do not believe in a son of God.


They are the people of the book, I think they are just considered misguided.

Not at all condescending. They are fair questions. ~:)


You might find a better answer here: Jesus in the Qur'an (http://www.journeytoislam.com/comparative/jesus%20in%20the%20glorious%20quran.htm)
thanks for the link it ansered a lot of my questions, just a few more things though, when did Jesus speak of muhammed? ,and also what is the source that muslims use for Jesus's teachings?

[Leet Eriksson]

thanks for the link it ansered a lot of my questions, just a few more things though, when did Jesus speak of muhammed? ,and also what is the source that muslims use for Jesus's teachings?

I think its Moses who mentioned Muhammeds name when he said:

"و من بعدي أحمد"

I can't recall which verse or Sura, but roughly translated "And after me is Ahmed"

Ahmed is a name very Similiar to Muhammed in meaning and is derived from it apparently.

[solypsist]

the "wild turkey defense" gets you a pass on this, but otherwise let's try to stay sober in the backroom (as paradoxical as that may sound). that was quite a night you had yesterday in here, hope the hangover was worth it. :balloon2:

/verbal warning


I think Lefy Eye Nine is a Masoleum. I also think (could be wrong) that Mouzapherefe (sic) is Muslimicalicious.

[Divinus Arma]

the "wild turkey defense" gets you a pass on this, but otherwise let's try to stay sober in the backroom (as paradoxical as that may sound). that was quite a night you had yesterday in here, hope the hangover was worth it. :balloon2:

/verbal warning

tee hee. just a silly play on words. Sometimes I refer to myself as "Divinus ***hole". Pretty close, no? :laugh4:

:balloon2: :balloon2: for you.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

I think its Moses who mentioned Muhammeds name when he said:

"و من بعدي أحمد"

I can't recall which verse or Sura, but roughly translated "And after me is Ahmed"

Ahmed is a name very Similiar to Muhammed in meaning and is derived from it apparently.
interesting, this qoute must surely have come from an earlyer text, any idea what one?

[ivoignob]

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/social/unity/unity01.php

http://www.harunyahya.com/jesus01.php

Not specific answers to your questions, but you may find them in there. There are also other articles considering Islam to read, which you may find interesting.

[LeftEyeNine]

Harun Yahya is the fake name of Adnan Oktar -the head of a well-known "state-in-state" organization in Turkey. He has fingerprints in some criminal records, he was given trials for such actions. Briefly he's not one of a kind to be instructor about Islam. I'd not trust his words at least.

Just to let you know ~:)

[Komutan]

Hey, ive studied Islam a little bit and with the events of recent times everyones been talking about Islam a lot. There are just some things i was wondering

1. Muslims say that you believe Jesus was a prophet, right? what aspects of his teachings do you follow?

2. Why isn't there a messiah in Islam, didn't the prophets before Muhammed predict one?

3. Why can't Jews and Cristians be considered Muslims if they also pray to the God of the old testament that Muslims worship?

Im not trying to be condesending i honestly want to know the ansers to these questions, thanks...

Actually I am an atheist, but a muslim-atheist if you know what I mean. So I can answer these questions.

According to Islam, Jesus was indeed a prophet. But muslims believe that the original teachings of prophets before Muhammed were changed. They think that God sent Kuran with all of his prophets, but in time people have corrupted these teachings.

The muslims dont worship the old testament. The Christians and Jews have better status than followers of other religions, but they are not considered muslims.

[Komutan]

Harun Yahya is the fake name of Adnan Oktar -the head of a well-known "state-in-state" organization in Turkey. He has fingerprints in some criminal records, he was given trials for such actions. Briefly he's not one of a kind to be instructor about Islam. I'd not trust his words at least.


He has a very unique organization. Something like mafia-meets-religious fanaticism...

Anyway, as you said he is not a credible source about Islam.

[LeftEyeNine]

He has a very unique organization. Something like "mafia meets religious fanaticism"...

Mafia meets so many areas in Turkey. But yeah, religious fanaticism is a really unique branch.

[ivoignob]

Harun Yahya is the fake name of Adnan Oktar -the head of a well-known "state-in-state" organization in Turkey. He has fingerprints in some criminal records, he was given trials for such actions. Briefly he's not one of a kind to be instructor about Islam. I'd not trust his words at least.

Just to let you know ~:)

There are powers in Turkey, that try to surpress any idea that has something to do with Islam and they can't stand these kind of people which do religious teaching. And they are well able to find anything to make people they can't stand, look like they are guilty or criminal or whatever. And please don't underestimate the power of turkish media.

Just to make it clear, I am not trying to criticize turkish secular rebuplic doctrine. But even if you are an atheist (I don't know you may be not either) you have to consider the point above.

[L'Impresario]

Harun Yahya is the fake name of Adnan Oktar -the head of a well-known "state-in-state" organization in Turkey.

Interesting, I thought the "deep state" is tradicionally comprised of the military and the diplomatic elite, not religious figures in any way.

[LeftEyeNine]

There are powers in Turkey, that try to surpress any idea that has something to do with Islam and they can't stand these kind of people which do religious teaching. And they are well able to find anything to make people they can't stand, look like they are guilty or criminal or whatever. And please don't underestimate the power of turkish media.

Just to make it clear, I am not trying to criticize turkish secular rebuplic doctrine. But even if you are an atheist (I don't know you may be not either) you have to consider the point above.

It sounds as if you're referring to Orthodox churches and the likes activities being disputed sometimes in Istanbul.

And yes, be an atheist but don't yell it out in the streets, live it on your own. The society does not welcome them, that's true -it may go even worse as the place you are living is smaller. But, there has not been any obvious vulgar incidents to people because of their beliefs. And at this point where we are at the threshold of EU, it is highly likely that it will never happen -thanks to Ataturk's reforms.

P.S. Turkish media is nearly controlled by Dogan Medya Grubu which is an enterprise of Aydin Dogan. He can use his media tools to manipulate things in his way -way too powerful. There are few media enterprises that are independent.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

According to Islam, Jesus was indeed a prophet. But muslims believe that the original teachings of prophets before Muhammed were changed. They think that God sent Kuran with all of his prophets, but in time people have corrupted these teachings.

but the Kuran is specific to muhammed isn't it? they (the other prophets) surely can't have had exactly the same Kuran? and what is to say that the Kuran itself has not been changed perticularly if muslims themselves agree that others were?

[LeftEyeNine]

"Changing" is meant to be "corruption". "Kuran was never changed" means "Kuran's parts were never rewritten, omitted, lost etc., it is the same book as its words were "inspired" to Muhammed".

[Byzantine Mercenary]

it is the same book as its words were "inspired" to Muhammed".
when you say inspired, was it directly qouted to him or is it his perseption of what he thought god wanted him to write?

[LeftEyeNine]

when you say inspired, was it directly qouted to him or is it his perseption of what he thought god wanted him to write?

It was directly qouted into to him by the messenger angel - Cebrail (=Gabriel). Such moments were described as "trances". As soon as the "quoting" was finished, he used to convey what he was told to the "katip"s (=writers) so that the holy words were kept unchanged.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

It was directly qouted into to him by the messenger angel - Cebrail (=Gabriel). Such moments were described as "trances". As soon as the "quoting" was finished, he used to convey what he was told to the "katip"s (=writers) so that the holy words were kept unchanged.
is this angel an ''angel of light'' thats how ive heard him described before?

[Banquo's Ghost]

is this angel an ''angel of light'' thats how ive heard him described before?

Gabriel is exactly the same angel that announced to Mary that she was to bear God's son. He was kept quite busy in those days.

The 'Angel of Light' you may have heard of is probably Lucifer, the Light Bearer.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

The 'Angel of Light' you may have heard of is probably Lucifer, the Light Bearer.
i heard that the angel that was supposed to have met muhammed was described as an angel of light.
what i don't understand is why god would have gone to all the effort of sending prophets if he knew their messages would be almost compleately erased and replaced?

[Banquo's Ghost]

what i don't understand is why god would have gone to all the effort of sending prophets if he knew their messages would be almost compleately erased and replaced?

Well, as Christians are fond of saying, who knows what is in God's mind? ~D

You might say that Mohammed (pbuh) was chosen as the last prophet precisely because he ensured the Qu'ran was kept exactly as given - even ensuring the language stayed the same.

All the holy books beforehand were in many different languages and different interpretations. For those who accept the Qu'ran as the word of God, it is exactly that - unchanged.

Seems a logical step for this God fella to take. ~;)

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Well, as Christians are fond of saying, who knows what is in God's mind? ~D

You might say that Mohammed (pbuh) was chosen as the last prophet precisely because he ensured the Qu'ran was kept exactly as given - even ensuring the language stayed the same.

All the holy books beforehand were in many different languages and different interpretations. For those who accept the Qu'ran as the word of God, it is exactly that - unchanged.

Seems a logical step for this God fella to take. ~;)
well being omnipotent he gets everything right the first time, the idea that he couldn't stop his words getting changed is weird and the Quran itself is open to interpretation in fact it contains the same sort of inconsistancys and unusually harsh sentiments (for a loving god to make) as the old testament.
The Torah is also preserved in its native tongue isn't it?

[LeftEyeNine]

i heard that the angel that was supposed to have met muhammed was described as an angel of light.
what i don't understand is why god would have gone to all the effort of sending prophets if he knew their messages would be almost compleately erased and replaced?

So how would you be accused of your sins after death without getting warned about them ?

[LeftEyeNine]

well being omnipotent he gets everything right the first time, the idea that he couldn't stop his words getting changed is weird...

The point is humankind is free to draw his destiny. I mean, you are shown what you are capable of, how you behave and react. The point is that it's not something that God is "not able to", it is something that God tests the humans about their intentions when there is no force over it.


..and the Quran itself is open to interpretation in fact it contains the same sort of inconsistancys and unusually harsh sentiments (for a loving god to make) as the old testament.

Probably considering the facts about how previous religions were partly corrupted and were re-written by humans to serve their earthly desires, the way of dictiation may feel harsh. But take human nature into account, if you draw a responsibility line, man generally performs and obeys it at lower degrees. So loosened and soft messages would totally fail, me thinks. What's more this is religion -a dogma. In Islam, the first thing you accept is the unity of Allah. You accept the power of a superior being at first step. Watching the other concepts of Islam taking this rule of thumb into account, will make it more easier to comprehend the rest about it.

Thanks for your manner approaching neutrally inquisitive towards Islam. :bow:

[Byzantine Mercenary]

So how would you be accused of your sins after death without getting warned about them ?
oh, what i meant was why give a prophecy to your prophets that you know will be replaced so that even those trying to follow the prophets will be unable to

[Byzantine Mercenary]

The point is humankind is free to draw his destiny. I mean, you are shown what you are capable of, how you behave and react. The point is that it's not something that God is "not able to", it is something that God tests the humans about their intentions when there is no force over it.
i agree, it just would seem unfair for god to allow false teachings to prosper without any evidence for the real teaching


Probably considering the facts about how previous religions were partly corrupted and were re-written by humans to serve their earthly desires, the way of dictiation may feel harsh. But take human nature into account, if you draw a responsibility line, man generally performs and obeys it at lower degrees. So loosened and soft messages would totally fail, me thinks. What's more this is religion -a dogma. In Islam, the first thing you accept is the unity of Allah. You accept the power of a superior being at first step. Watching the other concepts of Islam taking this rule of thumb into account, will make it more easier to comprehend the rest about it.
again i agree but what about the teaching to kill those that convert from Islam?


Thanks for your manner approaching neutrally inquisitive towards Islam. :bow
Im glad that this is how you interpret my questions this is exactly what i am aiming for :bow:

[BigTex]

Originally posted by LeftEyeNine
Probably considering the facts about how previous religions were partly corrupted and were re-written by humans to serve their earthly desires, the way of dictiation may feel harsh.

The Quran was kept as oral tradition till the 11th century, around 500 years. Anything that has been kept as oral tradition that long will be changed slowly. Around the 11th century individual cities started to write down their Qurans, creating many different qurans. They were also being written during the first crusade, you can probably guess what hearing news of a city canabalized by barbaric christians would have effected the writtings held in it. Late 15th century (if I remember correctly.) is when the turkish king had all qurans but the one he wanted destroyed. My point in all this is that the quran much like the bible and many other books in the world has been changed over the milenia. The belief that any holy book is unchanged since its conception is a bit flawed. Another odd fact, Mohamed was originally an orthodox priest.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Another odd fact, Mohamed was originally an orthodox priest.
wow! realy?

[Dâriûsh]

The Quran was kept as oral tradition till the 11th century, around 500 years. Anything that has been kept as oral tradition that long will be changed slowly. Eh? :inquisitive:

The first was written in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh).

[Banquo's Ghost]

The Quran was kept as oral tradition till the 11th century, around 500 years. Anything that has been kept as oral tradition that long will be changed slowly. Around the 11th century individual cities started to write down their Qurans, creating many different qurans.

Not really. http://www.answers.com/topic/qur-an

Actual fragments exist from the 7th century, and a full copy from the 9th. Most tradition maintains scribes wrote the words of Mohammed (pbuh) down there and then through dictation, though many modern scholars also believe that the verses were memorized (http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ISLAM/QURAN.HTM) until Caliph Uthman collated the first official text version around 656 AD.

I thought I read recently of a copy that has been discovered that is 7th century, but I can't find the link. Anyway, it is widely accepted that the Qu'ran has remained unchanged since dictation.

[LeftEyeNine]

BigTex, you should simply revise your source(s) about Quran.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

exactly when did Muhammed die?

[Banquo's Ghost]

OK found a link. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4581684.stm

The oldest Qu'ran is in Tashkent, and was written in the 7th century - 651 AD.

According to the article, this was 19 years after Mohammed's (pbuh) death in 632 AD.

Uzbekistan is a dangerous place these days, but I would love to go and see that book. :book:

[Byzantine Mercenary]

and is it word for word the same as modern qurans?

[Banquo's Ghost]

and is it word for word the same as modern qurans?

Yes, I believe so. Indeed, IIRC it is an act of blasphemy to change the wording of the Qu'ran.

Translations into other languages are allowed, but they may not be used for reference in theological discussion. If one wishes to be taken seriously in a discussion of Islam, one has to read Arabic.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

i see

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Ok, new question, what is the official muslim stance on people who are converted from Islam to another religion or become atheists?

[ivoignob]

People from other religions were respected in muslim countries througout history. There are examples, when people with other beliefs, pursued by christians were welcomed in muslim countries. There may be exceptions due to corruptive governments, I don't know.
This is, why when someone tries to interpret the Quran, he has to be careful. The phrase "war against nonbelievers" must not have automatically to do something with war by weapon, sadly this is, how most of islamophobes like to interpret it.
Oh, I almost was about to forget your actual question. To turn away from Islam/change to another religion when you know the teachings well is according to the Quran punished in the afterworld, since islam is seen as the last, unchanged and true religion. Death sentence on earth is absolutely nonsense and has nothing to do with the Islam.

[Dâriûsh]

Ok, new question, what is the official muslim stance on people who are converted from Islam to another religion or become atheists?

I do not really know a lot about this.

Supposedly it is never stated in the Qur'an that apostasy is punishable by death. But some scholars have argued for death penalty by their interpretation of the Hadiths.

[Brenus]

“People from other religions were respected in muslim countries througout history.” The ones from the Book, Christian and Jews. And respected isn’t the word, tolerated is better.

[ivoignob]

Please apologize my bad english... I'm trying my best. "Respected" may be too positive but "tolerated" sounds too negative to me.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

i know well how honourably Islam has treated people of other faiths in history, far better (on average) then the ''christian'' europeans treated people of other faiths, i think that this is attested by the number of christians in Muslims countries at the time, compared with the treatment of muslims in spain and other muslim cities when they were retaken.

So, the Quran does not say that converts from Islam should be killed, would it then be fair to say that an incident such as the proposed execution of a christian in Afganistan would be considered murder by muslims to?

[LeftEyeNine]

i know well how honourably Islam has treated people of other faiths in history, far better (on average) then the ''christian'' europeans treated people of other faiths, i think that this is attested by the number of christians in Muslims countries at the time, compared with the treatment of muslims in spain and other muslim cities when they were retaken.

So, the Quran does not say that converts from Islam should be killed, would it then be fair to say that an incident such as the proposed execution of a christian in Afganistan would be considered murder by muslims to?

Of course, there is a fundamental: "Islam is the religion of intentions". That means you should intend to pray, worship and obey from the heart. If Islam is something you are forced, memorized or something you keep reluctantly -say, something you are involved since your parents are, simply leave it.

I am a Muslim from the heart, I believe because I feel the existence of Allah and find my way through his discipline -Islam. That guy sentenced to execution will be murdered if the punishment gets done. There is no way Islam can get along with such wretched and poisonous interpretions.

[Kraxis]

Please apologize my bad english... I'm trying my best. "Respected" may be too positive but "tolerated" sounds too negative to me.
Then 'accepted' would be a nice compromise.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

another question, a bit of a weird one, what relevance does the number 666 have in Islam?

[LeftEyeNine]

None that I know of. There are 6666 ayets in Kuran as a sidenote. (Ayet: Each sentence of sures)

[Kraxis]

another question, a bit of a weird one, what relevance does the number 666 have in Islam?
That is a christian legend... It shouldn't have any impact on Islam.
Of interest it has been deducted that the hebrew numerological number for Nero is 666.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

That is a christian legend... It shouldn't have any impact on Islam.
Of interest it has been deducted that the hebrew numerological number for Nero is 666.
of course, its just that i have heard somewhere that 666 is supposedly an important number too muslims to and i wanted to check this out...
how come the hebrews have a number for zero wasn't zero only invented in India in 600AD, it must be quite a recent (historically speaking addition?)

heres a bit about the origin of zero
http://www.maxmon.com/300bc.htm

[Dâriûsh]

666 is also a good Iron Maiden song. :thrasher:

[Kraxis]

of course, its just that i have heard somewhere that 666 is supposedly an important number too muslims to and i wanted to check this out...
how come the hebrews have a number for zero wasn't zero only invented in India in 600AD, it must be quite a recent (historically speaking addition?)

heres a bit about the origin of zero
http://www.maxmon.com/300bc.htm
No idea...