View Full Version : A debt of honour...
I have a gut feeling that MTW 2's gonna be a dissapointment when it finally get's to the stores, just like the original RTW was... that most of the real changes will amount to new graphics and not much more 'cause TW series has gotten to be a oversimplified moneymaker of a game - they leave it to the modders to make a decent strategy game out of it...
At least we could honour the memory of all of those millions of young men, just like we are (Froggy excluded), who have actually fought and died in those battles so long ago (so that we could now play games about that) to make it as realistic as it can possibly get, without damaging the gameplay...
Yes, I know, it's just a game and if you want a history course, go buy yourself a book - I want to have fun playing a damn good game... me too, but at the same time, we all seem to "acquire interest in medieval history" because we're playing the game and consider ourselves being serious wargamers...
If you were one of those FMAA whose skull has been smashed open by a Goth knight's mace on one of those battlefields, if you had to tumble to that muddy ground, never getting to get home to see your wife again or live through another day in your life - all because of some completely absurd fight between two monarch's egoes, and if you somehow got a chance to look at this game, what would you think about it?
"Did we have to suffer and die so that these childish men could now make fun of our sacrifice?"
I have a real respect for medieval military history and all of those long ago infantrymen, I'm just tired of all of this feverish "what new eye-candy will they add this time" talk...
Is having better weather effects in the camp map really what this game, at it's heart, is about - or what it should be?
Think about this...
Voigtkampf
03-11-2006, 09:38
And this is why I don’t touch booze anymore… Cheers. :barrel:
screwtype
03-11-2006, 10:23
:laugh4:
ShadowMagnet
03-11-2006, 11:03
That's some deep stuff mate...
Loinnreach
03-11-2006, 11:19
Indeed.
Dobro si to napisao. Znao sam dva slovenca i jednog hrvata koji su bili zainteresirani u VI, pa mi je drago što smo se ''upoznali''.
p.s. Dugo je več što sam pisao u srbo-hrvatskom.
There's nothing wrong in being deep, it's just our culture and the media that's programming us into being shallow, having fun all of the time, buying yourself that special gadget that you just gotta have... we've forgotten how to BE deep... overstuffing ourselves on things to own instead of sharpening our minds.
Isn't being deep what TW is supposed to be (what i'm sure CA has meant it to be so long ago, when they envisioned STW in the middle of all of those awful tank rush "strategies").
I'm sure if there weren't any Producers or Publishers (or the Industry, at that) that CA would create quite a different game than this colorful fantasy TW has become...
I find this present situation similar to the middle of Sengoku Jidai in STW, when firearms began to appear, remember that animation from STW at the beginning of the middle campaign?
"Warfare is no more like it used to be in the day of my father... now even simple Ashigaru can get himself a rifle and kill a brave Samurai...
We no longer fight for honour... only glory and warfare itself.
If he could see this, my father would think that things have changed greatly from the way they were in his times...
But I hope he would see that at least we haven't lost our courage..."
Something is gravely missing, guys...
Don't you feel this, too?
Geoffrey S
03-11-2006, 12:17
For a game that has only recently been announced and of which we, as of yet, know rather little and haven't seen in action it sure is getting a lot of flak. :no:
Orda Khan
03-11-2006, 13:02
I have always hoped for the day when TW became as near to re-enactment as possible so yes I have an idea what Nikpalj is saying
........Orda
I have always hoped for the day when TW became as near to re-enactment as possible so yes I have an idea what Nikpalj is saying
........Orda
I think we all are hoping that it will happen ... someday (I just hope to be around when the tech that makes such things possible comes in).
I have a gut feeling that MTW 2's gonna be a dissapointment when it finally get's to the stores, just like the original RTW was... that most of the real changes will amount to new graphics and not much more 'cause TW series has gotten to be a oversimplified moneymaker of a game - they leave it to the modders to make a decent strategy game out of it...
There's an other option and that one is not unlikely when you take a look at the whole series.
STW was the first, jawdropping, but had flaws. People aren't aware, forgot or are in some sort of in the past everything was better denial phase.
Patches, expansions and new titles changed the game. All aimed to improve the game, not just eye-candy but also on a technical level. Did it introduce step backs? Of course, like all software that is developed and grows: new bugs, features that don't work well.
MTW basically uses the same engine as STW. It's rebuild at some points, several indeed. But essentially it's the same enhanced engine. Of course it has drawbacks/bugs, my personal main gripe is the (unmoddeble) year turns. But all in all, MTW VI is the best product in that line.
RTW is totally new and has to get past startup problems and grow. MTW2 may well enter the shops at the stage of RTW 1.5.
RTW is totally new and has to get past startup problems and grow. MTW2 may well enter the shops at the stage of RTW 1.5.
I sure hope it will be better than that. 1.5 is about how RTW should at the very least have been from the outset. If no advances in the game engine has been made then we could just have gotten a mod.
A.Saturnus
03-11-2006, 21:49
Do you seriously think that nitpicking about features of a PC-game is the right way to honour the fallen??
No, nothing we do can change any bit of the cruelty and senselessness of their fate. The only debt we have is to realize how good we have it compared to them and be grateful. You can show your respect by not taking a game too seriously.
Voigtkampf
03-12-2006, 08:40
Well, I used to emerge into STW and MTW beyond the recommendable limits. I wrote stories about my battles, dreamt about the game, used to sit on a business meeting and nod to my business associates while before my inner eye I saw thousands of units charging at each other.
It is not that I have idea what is he talking about; it is only that I’ve had sentiments like these couple of months after Rome came out. Now, I am rather patient, and will wait up and see. I have cried enough about those past days of honor on these forums, we all have.
I sure hope it will be better than that. 1.5 is about how RTW should at the very least have been from the outset. If no advances in the game engine has been made then we could just have gotten a mod.
What I'm trying to say is that CA has/should have experience with this new engine now. It should be taken to a new level and sure that's likely going to introduce new problems -is there any man made software in the world that has no bugs, glitches or shortcomings?
Patches?
And what's the most important development in the series: moddable! I hope MTW2 will also be very configurable (so 'normal' users can run right away).
If you were one of those FMAA whose skull has been smashed open by a Goth knight's mace on one of those battlefields, if you had to tumble to that muddy ground, never getting to get home to see your wife again or live through another day in your life - all because of some completely absurd fight between two monarch's egoes, and if you somehow got a chance to look at this game, what would you think about it?
"Did we have to suffer and die so that these childish men could now make fun of our sacrifice?"
I have a real respect for medieval military history and all of those long ago infantrymen, I'm just tired of all of this feverish "what new eye-candy will they add this time" talk...
Is having better weather effects in the camp map really what this game, at it's heart, is about - or what it should be?
Think about this...
No offense, but I think you are taking this way too seriously. Whether CA focuses on eye-candy or solid, complex gameplay, the game's purpose is to entertain. It certainly isn't to commerate those fallen in this or that stupid back then.
Don't get me wrong, I sincerely hope that this game will be more than just flashy graphics, but to say that we have a debt of honour to these dead soldiers to make this game great is taking it rather out of proportion.
dracosean
03-13-2006, 03:18
whats the diffrence in honouring those who died in the middle ages, in the 19th century, in both world wars, and today?
I hope it isn't just about the graphics and they try to recreate the middle ages as realisticly possible.
Sir Robin
03-13-2006, 04:58
I do really enjoy the Total War series.
Honestly I did not pickup STW until after playing MTW.
I just didn't think it would appeal to me.
I even liked RTW and was impressed by the amount of work CA has put into it.
I suspect MTW2 will not be what it can be but honestly that is par for the course. The business environment of today does not make it really feasible to really make games as great as they could be.
I do hope that CA does manage to make a game that appeals to the hardcore and casual gamer. But I expect it to fall short of my expectations just as RTW did.
As long as the reviews are not completely horrid I will buy MTW2. In fact a new pc to better handle its graphic goodness is probably what next year's tax return will go to.:juggle2:
The best I can hope for is that CA keeps as much of it "moddable" as possible.
Trajanus
03-13-2006, 07:08
RTW was a great game, like all the others. But it failed as a sequel to MTW, where MTW didn't to STW.
This was because they focused on improving the wrong things. I just hope they dont do this with M2TW aswell.
I will buy it, but for how long I will play it I'm not sure.
I got a terrific idea, let the whole world model their goverment like the Spartan obligarchy (and include the agoge), only then will people understand the value of honor...
Anyway, This new game needs to be closest to 100% accurate as possible (as possible as a game can get).
I got a terrific idea, let the whole world model their goverment like the Spartan obligarchy (and include the agoge), only then will people understand the value of honor...
Anyway, This new game needs to be closest to 100% accurate as possible (as possible as a game can get).
And also the value of nekid female wrasslin' :laugh4:
TW is the best strategy games that have ever been made and still are to this very day. No one comes close.
When it comes to eye-candy I think it depends on why you play the game.
I play TW for the battles, the feeling of commanding large armies and seeing them battle it out.
Right now TW is getting closer and closer to that exprience and the eye-candy helps to create spectacular battles. The soldiers are actually starting to look like humans now and with MTW2 less like clones which will only increase the exprience.
This is probably the main objective right now for CA and according to CA this has always been their main objective.
Hopefully they won't ignore the other parts and I doubt they will.
MTW2 will be an improvement over RTW, I'm sure of it.
As TosaInu said, this isn't a new engine anymore. The problems in RTW was expected but they should have learned from those mistakes and I think they have. Sure it will still have bugs but hopefully they should be few and nothing serious.
Let's hope for the best.
HarunTaiwan
03-24-2006, 05:28
MTW 4: now you can see individual beads of sweat roll down the arm of the soldiers....
look eyecandy is not enough. never has been never will.
Sure maybe it will sell games, but I hope CA doesn't fool itself into thinking it's actually done anything more...
A.Saturnus
03-26-2006, 21:33
MTW 4: now you can see individual beads of sweat roll down the arm of the soldiers....
look eyecandy is not enough. never has been never will.
Sure maybe it will sell games, but I hope CA doesn't fool itself into thinking it's actually done anything more...
I think they'll be pretty content with selling games.
What I'm trying to say is that CA has/should have experience with this new engine now. It should be taken to a new level and sure that's likely going to introduce new problems -is there any man made software in the world that has no bugs, glitches or shortcomings?
Patches?
And what's the most important development in the series: moddable! I hope MTW2 will also be very configurable (so 'normal' users can run right away).
If the engine is so new then why does it replicate flaws from the original STW? If it new then why does the AI have the same limitations? The only truely new part in RTW is the removal of the checkerboard map, a feature which the AI cannot deal with. The rest plays like a mismatch bodge of old TW features shoved into a new graphics engine.
Being a bit cynical I doubt that MTW2 will be much of an improvement and I doubt it will have the virtualy open source nature that you (and I) desire.
Which AI limitations do you mean Slyspy?
The first part questions whether the engine is really new, the second part mentions a new graphic engine. RTW is a bit more than just a new graphic engine (doesn't say it's perfect or even better, but it's different). I'm not a coder nor a PR manager: I wouldn't claim everything is new- actually it would be sad when the wheel (be it round or square) has to be re-invented again and again- but more changed in the engine than just graphics. That does not mean some glitches can't pop up again: a Volkswagen beetle can run out of gas, a Nissan can do too.
Virtually open source: there are some conflicting powers, some of them are within the players (fear for cheats). No, I don't make it up. Others are up in the 'office'. I've no clue what the reason is, but things are not always moving into the direction modders want to see. There may be commercial reasons: CA makes a product, where's the competition?, and has to be careful about giving away. There may be technical problems, you may recognise it: it should work, but it doesn't! Only this case is processed? Fixate it and don't touch or the whole thing turns unstable -> no mod. Fix it? Creating software is not like digging a hole in the ground, just work and get there.
I recall an interview in a game magazine about VI, or maybe it was about MTW? The retail CD would include modding tools. Don't believe newspapers, it wasn't there (apart from the mapeditor). But tools were released later, by fans and CA. And more tweaks could be made to MTW than STW.
Looking at the whole evolution of the TW series you can't deny that CA is not working/trying to make it more 'open'.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.