English question

[doc_bean]

Okay, I consider my English to be pretty decent, but lately I've been very confused about something very basic that you get taught at the most basic level when studying English. :help:

Possessive forms: 's or -s. I thought it was supposed to be -s unless the word ended with a vowel. So Sid Meiers instead of Sid Meier's and Angela's instead of Angelas. But just adding an -s to a word just feels wrong, is this because I've spent to much time on the net, where nobody bothers with such things as correct grammar ? Or should it always be 's ?

:stupido2:

[edyzmedieval]

's

That's the correct's way's. ~D
Really, that's the correct way. And I am studying English for 10 years.

[Duke Malcolm]

If it is singular and ending with any letter except an "s", it is -'s.

If it is plural it becomes -s' (if the word ends with an "s", just add -')

If it is singular and ends with an "s", it depends. It is not incorrect to add -'s, and it is also not incorrect to make it -s'. For ancient names, -s' is required e.g. Jesus' grail, Aristophanes' play. For Saints, -'s is required, e.g. St James's Cathedral. It is really up to preference.

[InsaneApache]

Don't worry too much doc, most English speaking people can't fathom the intricacies of the dreaded apostrophe. :dizzy2:

[KukriKhan]

http://ace.acadiau.ca/english/grammar/possess.htm

It is (it's) silly that it's so complicated. :)

[LeftEyeNine]

Well I've been taught that if one word ends with "s" then the possession suffix is only denoted by an apostrophe (') like in "Scissors' blades". And when there is no "s" as the ending letter of a word, possession is expressed by the addition of " 's " as a suffix. Wrong ? :book:

[KukriKhan]

Not at all. That rule you cite is correct, for indicating possession.

But technically 's is not a suffix (here's a list of english suffixes from wikiP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_suffixes

But, I admit, 's operates much like a suffix (it modifies the base word).

Where the confusion comes in, I think, is that we also use 'suffix' to mean those modifiers we use for computer files. For example: .com .doc .txt

So non-native english speakers see that precedent, and logically apply it to written grammar rules. English is So-o-o-o not logical. Sorry.

[Mikeus Caesar]

Eheheh...i love our confusing language.

[aw89]

English grammar is nothing against German grammer, there is a reason why it's called grammar nazi you know!

[L'Impresario]

Well,the "'s" isn't anything overly peculiar,it's jut a remnant of the Anglo-saxon language, with its nice germanic cases, "'s" being the ending fr the genetive one.
English slowly lost its highly inflective character and therefore the role of cute morphemes like "'s" became quite a topic for discussion.
From what I 've come to read the last few years, I 'm more inclined to classify it as a clitic, like "will" becomes " 'll " and sticks near the personal pronoun, similarly the ending -es became over the years "'s" and find a nice home behind the noun.

[Somebody Else]

To me, it's " 's " , even if the word ends in "s". Unless it's a plural, in which case it ends in " ' ".

Jesus's cross: The disciples' teacher's cross.

[Avicenna]

One very common misuse of the apostrophe is in it's.

It's = it is
It's =/= the possession of it

If it owns a pencil, it is its pencil.

Don't ask me why, but this is a peculiar rule in the language.

[L'Impresario]

It's = it is
It's =/= the possession of it

If it owns a pencil, it is its pencil.

Don't ask me why, but this is a peculiar rule in the language.

Nothing of any peculiarity;)
"Its" is a possesive pronoun, not a noun. Maybe in a century or so, pronouns will get their "'s" divided, but then there would be an identification problem with the "'s" clitic as in "he's" (is/has).

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

To me, it's " 's " , even if the word ends in "s". Unless it's a plural, in which case it ends in " ' ".

Jesus's cross: The disciples' teacher's cross.

This is the way I do it.

I hope no-one asks about semi-colons...:help:

[lancelot]

Dont get me started on semi-colons. I have yet to find an understandable explanation as to their use...

[Craterus]

Learn how to use semi-colons (http://msms.essortment.com/semicolon_rcnr.htm)

Oddly (?) enough, I have more trouble with apostrophes than semi-colons.

[Strike For The South]

Wait there are rules to this languge?

[GoreBag]

I use the semicolon all the time.

I'm pretty sure your query has found answers here already, doc, so I won't pile on.

[Duke Malcolm]

Using colons and semi-colons in essays (correctly) gets one into the good books with the Department of English in my school. As does use of proper grammar and archaic or little-known words. (Not an essay goes by where I do not use at least one of : "thence"; "whence"; "thereunto"; "nevertheless"; and many others which I cannot quite remember just now...)

[Craterus]

The people at your school are impressed far more easily than mine. I do that all the time, and I've never (not once!) been praised for it. :bigcry:

[GoreBag]

Using colons and semi-colons in essays (correctly) gets one into the good books with the Department of English in my school. As does use of proper grammar and archaic or little-known words. (Not an essay goes by where I do not use at least one of : "thence"; "whence"; "thereunto"; "nevertheless"; and many others which I cannot quite remember just now...)

I use 'thence' and 'whence' in everyday conversation..

[doc_bean]

so what do 'thence' and 'whence' mean ?

[Sjakihata]

English grammar is nothing against German grammer, there is a reason why it's called grammar nazi you know!

German grammar is much easier than English grammar.

[Duke Malcolm]

I use 'thence' and 'whence' in everyday conversation..

I try to, but my friends and acquaintances give me bemused looks and ask what the words mean...


so what do 'thence' and 'whence' mean ?

"Thence" can mean "from that point on", "thereafter".

"Whence" can mean "where from" or "which from".

[Dutch_guy]

German grammar is much easier than English grammar.

Don't agree with you on that Sjak, personally I find English grammar way easier than German...

:balloon2:

[Sjakihata]

But there is no logic in english grammar what so ever, unlike german grammar. You can analyze everything and have a set of rules (with some exceptions, but then a subrule) and you can easily learn it theoretically, whereas english requires practical hands-on work.
The only reason, probably, you and I are better at english than german, is because we were taught english from a much earlier age. Looking at it objectively I'd claim german grammar is easier.

[GoreBag]

so what do 'thence' and 'whence' mean ?

Essentially, it's the accusative case form of 'there' and 'where', like the German 'wohin' instead of 'wo'.