Hadrians Wall not in BI?

[Mount Suribachi]

Disapointed not to see this as a Wonder in BI, would have been a nice little feature on the campaign map. Maybe a bonus to lower unrest and raise trade/tax income?

Are wonders moddable?

Is there a mod for BI being developed?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well the Wall was never that impressive, just a giant customs checkpoint, and by the 4th Century it was sliding into ruin anyway.

[Avicenna]

Nothing near a wonder: the only wall that can qualify as a world wonder is the Great Wall of China... or Wall Street :P

[Mount Suribachi]

So unimpressive its a World Heritage Site?

[Drusus Magnus]

It may had meaning, but in no way would it even come close to equal the grandeur of the Pharos, Mausoleum, Hanging Gardens or any of the seven Wonders. Heh, what's more, the only wonders are the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. Hadrian's wall has never been considered to be one of them. It's not even CA's choice. But even if they considered adding it, think about this:

Hypothetical: the Celts unite under one banner, prosper, and raise a massive army and launch a co-ordinated assault on Hadrian's wall. I doubt the wall would be able to serve as a good place to stop the invasion. It isn't considered to have been a bulwark.

[Avicenna]

Drusus: other feats of architecture could have been considered wonders of the world, but the thing is the Greeks or Romans only travelled to the Mediterranean and nearby areas, never having been to Asia Proper or South America.

[Drusus Magnus]

I never disputed that other structures could have been considered wonders. But the Great Wall in China wouldn't really fit in on a European map, would it, Mr. Smartass.

Anyway, I'm sure the Asians have a list of buildings they consider Wonders, but that is not the case.

[Mount Suribachi]

Drusus I never said that Hadrians Wall was some impregnable defensive structure. Thats why I said it should give bonuses to law + trade, just like it did in real life.

Nor did I claim it to be one of the 7 wonders of the world, I was thinking of it as a wonder in game terms. AFAIK the original "wonders" came in the Civ games, and they went well past the 7 WOTW - Cure For Cancer for example. The "wonder" was a game feature that added flavour to the game, as well as providing a real benefit to the player (though at a high price).

I can't go to the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, but I can go, and have been to Hadrians Wall, and a wonderful tingly feeling down my spine it gives me to stand on the edge of the Roman Empire ~:)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hadrian's Wall was the ancient equivelant of a barb wire fence and ditch. The main points were the fortlets and Towers, the later Forts were for a patroling garrison, they were defensible, the wall as a whole wasn't.

Probable tactics for an invasion would be an advance by the Wall Garrison into Calledonia to meet the celts prior to them reaching Roman territory.

[lars573]

Nothing near a wonder: the only wall that can qualify as a world wonder is the Great Wall of China... or Wall Street :P
And it wasn't even as much a wall as Hadrians wall.:dizzy2:

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I'd have to agree. I think the wall was very impressive, not only because of how long it stretched, but how great it worked. With every mile having patrols or soldier barracks it was a formidle position for Rome. That's not mentioning all the dips and spikes the enemy had to cross to get to the wall itself.

I think it's deffinetly a wonder, and it would be cool to have in the game to help, but just a wonder would be fine too.

[player1]

Well, you do get watch towers at place of wall in BI instead.
Better then nothing...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'd have to agree. I think the wall was very impressive, not only because of how long it stretched, but how great it worked. With every mile having patrols or soldier barracks it was a formidle position for Rome. That's not mentioning all the dips and spikes the enemy had to cross to get to the wall itself.

I think it's deffinetly a wonder, and it would be cool to have in the game to help, but just a wonder would be fine too.

It was only 73 miles long, probably didn't have a rampart and there were never more than 50 men per mile, it was a customs checkpoint, and it was built on the cheap. Bits of it fell down fifty years after it was built. As a static defensive position, the foward eathworks were just a ditch and rampart, the rear facing earthworks, the Vallum were more extensive. The only strong points were the forts, the wall itself was indefensible.

[Mount Suribachi]

Bits of it fell down fifty years after it was built.

And bits of it are still standing nearly 2000 years later :2thumbsup:

[teja]

Romans build Limetes around the world, not only in Britain. They also did it in Germany between the river Rhine and Danubia (also a World Heritage). Another of these walls had been near the final delta of the river Danubia at the Black Sea.
A combination between watchtowers, streets and garrisons (Which are in fact the main components of any of these areas of control) had been made at the border to the Sassanid Empire too and can be found in the deserts of Tunesia... and elswhere.
In my personal option the Hadrians Wall including any other of these Limetes are already included into the game by all those watchtowers along the Roman borders. To observe any possible enemy apporeach and to keep track about the trades is simply their main use during the last centuries of the Roman Empire.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Correct, Hadrian's Wall is remembered because of the catchy name and because it was the only one which was a stone wall for its entire length, and even that's not quite true because it continued for 7 miles down the west coast.

[Horatius]

Hadrians wall was not as weak as you guys are describing it.

Hadrians wall did exactly what it was suppose to do which was to

a.Mark Rome's final borders

b. Protect Trade

c. Moniter Trade

e. Maintain Law & Order

f. Stop Pictish Raids on Caravans

The fact that it's forts prevented Pictish Invasions for centuries was just an added bonus, since when it was built the Picts where little more then an ancient equivalent to street thugs robbing the local banks.

Hadrians Wall should have been in providing trade+Law bonuses in British Provinces, and perhaps even the possibility of defending at the wall instead of the city (which nobody would have done anyway because of massive starting unrest means moving your army out of your city=losing the city, but would have been cool to do towards the end of the game when it is impossible to lose to the Celts).

[Horatius]

Sorry for double posting but I think the Colloseum could easily be compared to the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, remember that the Colloseum would be very impressive if built today, and much of it has survived Italians using it is a bronze source, Marble Quary, Fort, Massive Garden, and Shrine to early christian martyrs.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hadrians wall was not as weak as you guys are describing it.

Hadrians wall did exactly what it was suppose to do which was to

a.Mark Rome's final borders

b. Protect Trade

c. Moniter Trade

e. Maintain Law & Order

f. Stop Pictish Raids on Caravans

The fact that it's forts prevented Pictish Invasions for centuries was just an added bonus, since when it was built the Picts where little more then an ancient equivalent to street thugs robbing the local banks.

Hadrians Wall should have been in providing trade+Law bonuses in British Provinces, and perhaps even the possibility of defending at the wall instead of the city (which nobody would have done anyway because of massive starting unrest means moving your army out of your city=losing the city, but would have been cool to do towards the end of the game when it is impossible to lose to the Celts).

As I said Hadrian's Wall was for controlling trade and patrolling the surounding countryside but it wasn't a deffensive position. It was never intended to be used as a fighting platform. It also never marked the end of the Roman Province, the borderlands were several miles North, until the 4th Century at any rate.

[teja]

Correct, Hadrian's Wall is remembered because of the catchy name and because it was the only one which was a stone wall for its entire length, and even that's not quite true because it continued for 7 miles down the west coast.

Hmm. I don't know for any Limes, but as far as I know the Rhaetian Limes had been made completely by a stone wall...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_Germanicus
The proper Rhaetian Limes extended east from Lorch to Eining (close to Kelheim) on the Danube. The total length was 568 km (353 miles). It included at least 60 castles and 900 watchtowers.
I know, this article should become updated. But all I want to say is that Hadrian's Wall is not that unique as you guys discuss it. So if it becomes a Wonder of the World, what about those other walls then?
The German article at wikipedia is by far better than the one in English language.

In fact the limes worked similar to the „Iron Curtain“ in the middle of Germany after the 2nd Worldwar until the Communistic Block collapsed.
* It stopped the normal migration and trade between the two sides of the limes up to a limit that can be controlled by Roman forces.
* It stopped local raids by native forces.
* I doubt that a limes improves trading in a bigger scale, just the opposite! The only trade increasing will be the trade required to supply the forces used to run the limes! In case of a poor area this kind of traffic may be bigger but the usual ancient luxary trade in a rural country.

/me thinks back to Civilization, where anybody is able to build Wonders while playing.

[Slug For A Butt]

I can't go to the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, but I can go, and have been to Hadrians Wall, and a wonderful tingly feeling down my spine it gives me to stand on the edge of the Roman Empire ~:)

Does it make it a wonder because you can go to it? It's no more special than the fort at Hardknott pass in the Lakes. I have been to both and, yes, I get the tingle at both. But to suggest Hadrian's wall is some kind of wonder is a little narrow minded I think. The Romans built magnificent structures in many places, nothing places the wall above the others except local favouritism I think.


And bits of it are still standing nearly 2000 years later

Lots of bits of many Roman structures still stand, do you think the wall is a more important structure than the Coliseum? the baths of Spa? the aqueduct for Constantinople? etc...
The game can pay lip service to many different cultures and countries, but I think they have got it right. 7 Wonders, THE 7 Wonders is all we need.

[Horatius]

The Colloseum certainly would have been easily justified as having an effect on the game.

WHat other structure literally survived being used as a Marble Quarry while being used as a fort?

Ironwall true the Romans did go beyond the wall, but the wall really was a statement of no further. Naturally governors of Britainia disagreed, but as far as Emperors (Other then Hadrian's immediate successor) knew, Hadrians wall was the end of it. That is why emperors who did not accept Rome's borders ending like Hadrians successor Antoninym ordered further expansion beyond the wall, building Antoninyms Wall out of Turf north of it, a statement that walls are temporary Rome shall conquer (Gibbon is the first to say that the native inhabitants of Scotland informed him differently).

Teja Hadrians Wall did increase trade by a lot.

Picts made raids into Northern Britainia, raids that had absoloutly nothing to do with politics but seriously was a set back to trade and development, Hadrians Wall stopped that. The presence of the soldiers themselves also greatly increased commerce as well, especially when Roman Soldiers married local girls, and during legal dispute soldiers at the forts always would be able to get things solved. If you went back in time and discussed removing the wall to increase trade to the locals you would get blank stares and be told your crazy.

[Avicenna]

I never disputed that other structures could have been considered wonders. But the Great Wall in China wouldn't really fit in on a European map, would it, Mr. Smartass.

Anyway, I'm sure the Asians have a list of buildings they consider Wonders, but that is not the case.

Hi when did I ever imply that the Great Wall should be on the map? I just said Hadrian's wall is nothing that special.


And it wasn't even as much a wall as Hadrians wall.:dizzy2:

The Great Wall of China could encircle Hadrian's Wall quite a few times. It is easily more impressive than Hadrian's Wall. Don't talk if you don't know the facts.



The [Great Wall of China] stretches over a formidable 6,352 km (3,948 miles).


Hadrian's Wall ran for 120 km

And here is the proof for my argument lars.

[teja]

Teja Hadrians Wall did increase trade by a lot.

Picts made raids into Northern Britainia, raids that had absoloutly nothing to do with politics but seriously was a set back to trade and development, Hadrians Wall stopped that. The presence of the soldiers themselves also greatly increased commerce as well, especially when Roman Soldiers married local girls, and during legal dispute soldiers at the forts always would be able to get things solved. If you went back in time and discussed removing the wall to increase trade to the locals you would get blank stares and be told your crazy.

I already mentioned that, but in fact it did not raise the trading with that! The only boost for economy came for supporting the workers and later the soldiers with all they need for their welfare. In the opposite it cut the free trade between the regions behind- and before the wall.
The positive effect of the wall would have mainly work even when there had been no wall, but a big base for a roman Legion only. To support such bases many cities became established all over the empire. This is the same boost for local trade and development. To support an army of 5000 men and all the non military baggage many thousands of people are required.

Straight conclusion:
In my option the Hadrians Wall should not become a Wonder. There are several other and more fitting buildings. If you have a chance to desing it, feel free to do so.

Idea:
Maybe the Romans should be able to build a limes as a normal building in their provinces with some positive effects. Those should work like upgraded streets and calm down civilian unrest....

[Horatius]

I agree with your conclusion, if you have any idea on how to creat a Limes Structure feel free to tell me.

Your point about the wall not doing the economy boosting but the forts doing it is partly right. The presence of the wall convinced Pictish Raiders who where just the ancient equivalent of Thugs not to even try to raid. Had there just been the Legion deployed to the North of Britainia they would have continued to make forays into Britain in search of plunder, and have just tried to avoid the Legions alltogether.

It was like building a police station in a high crime, extremely high theft nieghbourhood, so while I agree with you that Hadrians Wall was far from a wonder, it was still very effective at what it did, and a useful tool for governors of Britainia.

I always wondered though why the Colloseum never made it to wonder status.

[teja]

So I guess we think similar about those limes now. Creating cities by the Romans would have done a bigger economic effect but the Hadrians Wall, but would have only attract Raiders they would have not been able to handle.

This way the limes worked properly in combining to boost a bigger, very loyal local population (Veterans often became land near a limes to settle down there after their military service had been over), with protection against local raids by the natives. It required a proper system of streets which can also boost the chance to form cities, craftsmen and an easier trade. The thousands of men serving the military stations and units at this limes forced them to cultivate and use the surrounding lands better than before. The ancient luxiary trade became limited, if not cutted down because of Roman controls and taxes.
This last points made the 'outsiders' became more interested in other ways of jobs. Some got attracted by the Roman way of life and tryed to immigrate and assimilate. Others, at the opposite aimed to get those goods by force, they had been cut of. Some historicans say that those limetes forced the 'outsiders' to establish better and bigger forms of political societies to resist the call of the 'Roman way of living'....

Too bad, I am not a programmer. I have no idea how to make a modification for any kind of additional wunders or new improvements. What about to make a post for at the MOD-areas in the forums?

[Severous]

I was watching a programe on TV about the 'Power of Rome'.

Not military but mechanical power.

Water power was important.

One aspect of Roman water use was how they used water in Britian....including.....what brings me on topic...in Hadrians Wall. The toilet facilities.

Found this link after a few seconds on Google:
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0004147.html

Maybe to simulate the wall in RTW a Roman defender of a region in northern Britian could start with a city with Stone Walls ? Not exactly the same..but close enough ?

[antisocialmunky]

Meh, just line up a bunch of soldiers across Britannia, it's not that big.

And while we're on the subject of walls.

The Greeks around the pre-classical period also build a giant wall across the Balkan Penninsula when the Thessylians invaded form the north. No one remembers that one.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Or the massive wall across the Isthumus when Xerxes invaded, now that was a real wall, with a fighting platform.

[antisocialmunky]

There's always the two walls that Caesar built around Elesia. That's probably the second best known Roman wall work.

[teja]

There's always the two walls that Caesar built around Elesia. That's probably the second best known Roman wall work.

Yeah. But that is a military installation to battle down an enemy city. Such fortifications to improve your own armys defence are tactical decisions. Any limes and so is Hadrians Wall had not been military fortifications only, but had been of political use.

Clausewitz, the German military Philosoper make differences between field fortifications and what he called a 'Cordon'. If you want to go deeper into that buisness and dare to face with Clausewitz go on and read book 6, capter 22 of his book: 'On War' (German: Vom Kriege):

As my english is not proper enough to translate his old speak, I will use mainly my own words to translate. Replace the word 'Cordon' with LIMES/Hadrians Wall and it will fit to our discussion:

The use of a cordon:
A cordon is called a line of fortificated posts connected to each others, to save a territory directly. You can also save a bigger territory without forming a cordon indirectly: A big army seperated into several divisions can protect a territory properly due a combination of moves too.

Apparently such a long line of defence (the cordon) can only offer a very small durability. The intention of a cordon can only be to safe against a weak opponent. No matter if this is because of the enemy willpower is weak, or the forces able to attack are small.

Now completely freely by me:
The bigger the forces able to invade, the smaller is the use of a cordon. Against bigger forces a cordon can only serve best to slow them down a little bit.
The main use of the strategy in a war is always to be stronger at the battlefield. It requires too many soldiers to serve in a cordon to be strong enough at the battlefield when your enemy is big enough.
As for example: The Maginot line in WW2 sucked up too many French forces but they bound at German side. In conclusion the Germans had been stronger at the battlefield they went for, no matter that allied forces in total outnumbered them both: In total number and in quality of their equipment!

If you are great in reading German, you may check this:
http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/VomKriege/Book6.htm#22
Thanks to wikipedia that linked me to this place.

[anti_strunt]

Meh, just line up a bunch of soldiers across Britannia, it's not that big.

And while we're on the subject of walls.

The Greeks around the pre-classical period also build a giant wall across the Balkan Penninsula when the Thessylians invaded form the north. No one remembers that one.

Or the wall the Persians built east of the Caspian to keep the Sakas (IIRC) out; or (going back a bit) the wall the Sumerians built between the two rivers to keep out Semitic raiders; or (going ahead a bit) the walls the Rus built to keep the Petchenegs away...

Plenty of walls, but they never lasted forever.

[Kaldhore]

Hadrians Wall WAS a wonder to those barbarians, celts,Woads, Saxons. To Wonder at something is in the eyes of the beholders and those guys would never have seen anything like that other than Stone Henge.

[Avicenna]

Hadrians Wall WAS a wonder to those barbarians, celts,Woads, Saxons. To Wonder at something is in the eyes of the beholders and those guys would never have seen anything like that other than Stone Henge.

So are you saying that epic stone walls should be wonders too? They were also wonders to the barbarians. They're also probably more impressive than Hadrian's wall. I'm taller than Hadrian's wall.

[Horatius]

The Great Aqueducts in my opinion deserved to have some status on the campaign map.

In my opinion there should have been a new class of campaign structure, called something like Roman Achievement, you know like the Colloseum, the Aqueducts of Rome, and other great architectural wonders that came to early to avoid the title ancient, but too late to get the title of wonder.

[Kaldhore]

So are you saying that epic stone walls should be wonders too? They were also wonders to the barbarians. They're also probably more impressive than Hadrian's wall. I'm taller than Hadrian's wall.

Dude Those Barbarians never saw epic stone walls....they DID see hadrians wall.


And no obviously I never mentioned Epic stone walls, so how could I be saying they should be wonders. Re-read my post, one day you will understand :)

[teja]

Well in the eye of an Pictish warrior an epic wall around a city will for sure impress him more but parts of Hadrians Wall!

Both are impressive Improvements made of stone, while a big city is impressive too for people that only saw small villages before. There is a good point in the post of Tiberius.
Whatever, if there is any possibility to create a mod making Hadrians Wall to become a wonder of the world I would risk a look for sure. Maybe we can find some other things worth to mention like this. If there will be any possibility to allow a player to build such wonders, we shall allow other fractions to build their wonders too because of the game balace....

[kburkert]

Hadrians wall should have been a wonder because:


It was made by the romans to great effect


Im not saying it was as good as the pyramids,etc... But in its own right it did keep the barbs out.