Crossbows !!

[Puzz3D]

Looks like the replacement for guns for the invasion campaign. I was always fascinated by this weapon. Now I'll get to use it! And they can't shoot through their own units. Maybe guns will be changed in this way as well.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[solypsist]

it was pointed out a log time ago that there is an unused soldier-figure file for crossbowmen that never made it into the game, but I forgot how to access it. If you're curious, I'm sure you could search the General threads and it will pop up.
but so far, no signs that they'll be appearing in the game, unless you've got a bit of info I haven't seen.



[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 02-12-2001).]

[Nelson]

It's posted at totalwar.com among the new units of the week.

I have long advocated ashigaru archers. I didn't expect to get crossbowmen though and would prefer them to use regular bows. This sounds like another "Hey, crossbows existed so let's make THEM a new unit type!" situation.

Did the Japanese EVER use the crossbow extensively? I don't know but I doubt it. I'm curious. Does anyone know?

(And yes, all you gamey rascals out there, before anyone reminds me, I know "It's just a game!" and it really doesn't matter and that I should shut up and go read a book. That history board is just so far up my tush I can't get it out. Forgive me. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif )

[lanza27]

It seems a Crossbowman would be comparabile to a Arquebusiers. They need a direct line of site, they have a slower rate of fire, they have a reduced range. In comparison to Samurai Archers, the Crossbowmen fill the same roll as the guns do.

The only difference i see is the Morale bonus of the thundering guns. I'm guessing there is some offset with the other stats to help out in that area.

Nelson, I always advocated ashigaru archers but I wanted ones who could launch over the unit sin front of them.

------------------
Lanza
Shogun Totalwar Hints and Strategies
www.geocities.com/totalwarshogun (http://www.geocities.com/totalwarshogun)
Please feel free to stop by and contribute your strategies...
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are

[Puzz3D]

Over at the official forum, Hegemon has posted that crossbows were seldom used in feudal Japan. I don't have any problem with these new units as long as play balance is maintained. Those that want to play with a more limited set of units can do that.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Catiline]

I pointed that out ages ago, the thread is HERE (http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000045.html)


If you want to see the graphics as they are then they're in C:\Program Files\Total War\Shogun - Total War\Textures\Men\XBow provied you've got the standard installation, if you don't you'll have to find it yourself. Open the Xbow. Lbm wiht Paintshop or something

They may be redoing the graphics though. I have had the crossbowmen in the game, and marched them around, but you can't get them to fire.

------------------
It's not a bug, it's a feature

[Tachikaze]

The impression I got from my readings in Japanese history is that the Japanese tried crossbows before the Heian period. They were unimpressed and stopped using them after a while.

I think the units are not very historical, but I don't care. My main beefs about the über samurai and Butterfinger Ninja is mainly because of the type of units they are (unrealistic, fantasy, pop-culture), not their historical accuracy or game balance. I have never complained about other "non-historical" units like No-dachis and Warrior Monks. These units are realistic, just not historical.

The crossbowmen fall into the same category, in my opinion. I will be happy to use them (if they're any good http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif ).

[Nelson]

Puzz, we don't know if we'll be able to specify available units in the single player game or not. Probably not is my guess. Of course online we can use any OB's we want. But if I start up the Mongol campaign as the Mongols, the AI will go on to build crossbows whether I like them or not.

As Colonel Don on "that other" forum has proposed, it would be nice to have the option to preset what can and cannot appear in a solo game. Not likely though.

[The Black Ship]

Actually this was one of the first topics in the Japanese History forum...look at how smart we were back then http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000006.html

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Thanks for the links, people. This one's a gem that should be shared with you all:

"hmm..maybe this STW expansion (just a rumor) will give us a few new units to try out."
- Solypsist in "Odd units", Nov 2000

The oracle has spoken! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Seriously, the latest new unit took me completely by surprise. I would have expected the Mongol Cavalry, maybe more Koreans, or even the Glaive Guys (assuming they aren't Korean Guardsmen in an ahistorical battle). Once again, I was humbled: never underestimate the power of CA. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Basically everyone and their aunt has, at one point or another, expressed the desire to have ashigaru archers. CA does listen to us (and let nobody say otherwise), and they decided to grant our wish. However, if the ashi-archers had basic yumis, they would be essentially identical to SA, only worse. Nobody would use them if presented with an alternative. So, the developers came up with the idea of using oyumi crossbows instead.

Is it a compromise of playability over historical accuracy? To some extent, yes. Are the WMs and the NDs too? To some extent, yes. Do I give a damn? To a great extent, no. Crossbows should have penetrating power. They make a great (well, very cheap) alternative to gunners for anti-armor (that is, anti-HC and anti-Nagi). Also, their presence could make bridge crossings into a painful ordeal in the early campaign like the guns do in the late campaign... Oda also get cheap & high-honor crossbowmen. Ouch. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
"Don't let your confusion confuse the user."
- Isys Information Architechts (http://www.iarchitect.com)

[solypsist]

cheeky monkey! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Puzz3D]

Nelson, I was only thinking of online. It shows to what extent I lost interest in the single player campaign after I went online. I've seen no mention of being able to limit what the AI chooses for units. It certainly would be nice to have more customizable options in the campaign.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Tachikaze]

I can't imagine crossbows being equal or superior to teppo. Since arquebusiers are 100 koku, will crossbows be less than that or have an advantage over teppo? Perhaps their ability to fire in the rain makes up the difference.

[ShadowKill]

have any of you heard a crossbow fired before I think that whould scare the piss out of me more then a musket. as a musket is only heard once it is fired but that arrrows just shounds like it is laughing all the way to you http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif i think they a bit more dishearting IMO

------------------
Clan Shades
Shades (http://www.geocities.com/shadesofshogun/index.html)
You are already dead you just don't know it yet!!
http://www.geocities.com/peacekeeper316/me.jpg

[Catiline]

Only in Halflife. Nothing like zooming in on the spot between their eyes and waiting for them to see you before you fire. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
It's not a bug, it's a feature

[Vanya]

I'd hate to be the poor sap in the front row of the crossbow unit that gets hit in the head by the moron behind him...!

This seems to happen a lot with the existing ranged units...

[Hosakawa Tito]

I wonder if their supply of ammo will be similar to gun units?I think the gun units have too much.If you fire a muzzleloading weapon for an extended period of time the barrel becomes so fouled with powder residue
that it becomes impossible to load unless it is cleaned.The crossbow will be handy in those foul weather battles when guns are useless.Be nice if they could launch fire arrows.Imagine the mayhem a cloud of fire arrows would have against greniadiers and muskets with all that gunpowder they carry.
Tito

[Tenchimuyo]

.....yeah the arrows will hit the powders and creat huge explosions and large cloud of smoke emerge, therefore horribly slowing down the game.

[Tenchimuyo]

On the other hand, soldiers around will be caught by the explosion and many will die before you start an engagement or many will just run around the battle field like a mad cow since they are caught on fire. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[The Black Ship]

This is just a thought, but maybe the crossbows will be strong at killing nagis and other heavily armoured troops while lacking the number of missles that other ranged units possess??

It is kind of ironic that they chose ashis for the crossbowmen, since afterall oyumi were by all accounts quite well trained and respected individuals.

[Magyar Khan]

i want mongol whistling arrows....

[yojimbo]

Actually crossbows were used as a siege weapon and were mounted on the ground. so it dosen't seem very historicly correct, but it will and something new to the game which may be fun to try but i dont think i'll use them very often!

------------------
"When two flashing swords meet there is no place for escape"

[Ronin]

handeld crossbows were used in japan about until the 10th century when they feel out of use!

------------------
"yama yama tani tani"- Oda Nobunaga.
on every montain and in every valley!

[MountFuji]

If the crossbow is as cool as in half-life (and a sniper with 20/20 vision instead of a scope), i can picture myself already creating a diversion and offing the AI daimyo in the first minutes of a battle...
My wish is that the AI learns from its mistakes eventually...it would like THAT as well as new units and battle types...

------------------
"He who is a powerful, opulent dead daimyo with no heir and only one province left to conquer before become becoming Shogun is still a dead daimyo with no heir"

"he who comes back odorless from the battlefield didn't scare the Shimotzuke out of his ennemy"

~~~~_,
~~~/__\
___/,'```\____

[Hoichi]

consider this: while crossbows are a ludicrous suggestion for a Japanese OB, the Chinese got a lot of use out of them. With the editing tools we've been promised, we can create Chinese (and a whole lot of other Asiatic)armies.

How about Mongels vs. Chinese or Koreans, Chinese vs. Koreans, the Japanese invasion of the mainland? With a little leeway about how they look, convincing historical armies of all types could be modeled.

If the campaign editor doesn't suck, Japan can be turned into Korea, or China, etc. Just wish we could get sprites for chariots and elephants.

Yoritomo

[solypsist]

...before ya know it, we'll be "re-enacting" the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and march on Hollywood!!!

[BakaGaijin]

What remains to be seen is how well the Kensai will perform against the American Battleships in the new Pearl Harbor scenario. Perhaps the Japanese will capture some of those Korean grenade fellows and strap them to oversized crossbows -- the first use of airborne Kamikaze attacks by Sengoku generals.