Favorite Battle of All Time

[Goalie]

What is your favorite battle thoughout history? Mine would have to be the Battle of Britian. The British stopped Hitler and the German's conquest of Europe. It gave the Russians a chance to push back the Germans on the Eastern Front. The battle decimated the Luftwaffe and proved for the first time that the Germans could be stopped.

[matteus the inbred]

favourite? I have several.

Cannae, for lots of reasons, mainly tactical, but it stands out as a battlefield achievement.
Waterloo, the one I've read most about, and a classic example of myth and legend triumphing over what actually happened.
The Battle of Vienna in 1683 for one of the most epic and inspiring moments in military history, when Sobieski led 20,000 cavalry straight down the Kahlenburg and smashed the Ottoman lines to save the city and possibly Europe as well.

[Reverend Joe]

My favorite battle of all time? That would have to be the time my normally placid, quiet dog almost killed an enormous raccoon, almost half her size- and she weighs about 70 pounds.

...Oh, you mean- oh... oops.

[English assassin]

Depends what you mean by "favourite" I suppose, and battle. We aren't supposed to admit it but the Battle of Britain probably was a defining moment for the British national psyche (indeed many of our European friends claim with some justification that we are unable to forget it).

General Slim's liberation* of Burma in 1944/45 was IMHO one of the best conducted campaigns by any army in any theatre in WW2, so I'd nomnate that as a favourite in terms of the military skill displayed.

(* Oops. I mean reoccupation of Burma for the British Empire, which I suppose is not technically a "liberation" as such)

[Kraxis]

Interestingly I'm not much for battles with political ramifications (Battle of Britain, Waterloo ect.). I'm a sucker for tactical impressiveness.

Thus I have a few I always like to look to for that.
4th Kawanakajima for the almost outrageous losses and supreme tactical ability of both commanders.
Cannae for its revolutionary tactics.
Issus for its daring and interesting tactics of the time.

[Craterus]

Gaugamela.
Cannae.
Thermopylae.

[Strike For The South]

Yorktown

[The_Doctor]

Cannae. Just brilliant.

Waterloo. A clash of giants. Also I come from Waterloo, well the English one.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Not in any particular order:

Thermopylae - the perhaps most impressive battle fought by vastly outnumbered troops, but tactics were pretty simple.

Issos & Gaugamela - good use of the phalanx, and good ideas for how to protect the flanks

The battle of X for being the first recorded example of flanking IIRC.
Edit: replaced the battle name with an X because I think I got the wrong name...

Cannae - well the entire series of battles fought by Hannibal was impressive, but Cannae was the climax of it.

Pharsalus - keep a strong line of infantry, pressure the enemy to flank you to relieve it's own slightly weaker infantry line, then unleash an ambush you had hidden behind your line all the time, a line of spearmen perfect for catching the incoming enemy cavalry. Beautiful!

The Roman attempt to conquer Parthia in 117 AD which ended up in destruction of many roman units, broke the myth of the romans being invincible, and meant roman rule would never expand that far again. The well-coordinated rebellions of many conquered peoples in the eastern half of the empire were impressive.

Hastings, for the very simple fact that it shows that a varied troop selection with simple tactics can defeat an enemy camping on a hilltop.

Horns of Hattin - yet another example of the "locals" using the advantage of weather and almost scorched-earth like strategy to obtain a battle with the odds on their side from start. The enemy caught after a long march through hot desert with heavy armor, exhausted and unprepared for Saladin's skilled tactics.

Agincourt - just like with Cannae and Hannibal, this is the climax of a long series of battles where all where won by essentially the same principle. What makes Agincourt so interesting is that it was a situation with worse odds than in any of the previous battles, and still the English troops won.

Too bad I know too little about 1600 to 1900 and too little about Chinese and Japanese history... If I did, there would be more battles of the period in the list here...

Not really a single battle, but the British fighting in the first half of ww2 really is an exciting read. The naval battles, especially vs the legendary German battleships - Bismarck, Admiral Graf Spee and so on, then the campaign in Norway, the impressive Dunkirk evacuation, and then the battles in North Africa - a few divisions of "auxiliaries" and regulars cleverly redistributed to break the back of Italians with vastly superior numbers. The decision to send half the British tank reserve to North Africa while the threat of a German landing was imminent, and of course the air fighting over Britain and the channel.

Fall Gelb - probably the peak of German tactics in the war. While it was a mistake to not press harder at Dunkirk, who would have known better? Plus Monty did a great job coordinating the delaying rearguard actions, and particularly the French troops at Lille fought very well.

The reestablishment of the Soviet line after the brilliantly well-coordinated surprise element attacks that begun Operation Barbarossa. Although there were plenty of Soviet division that were encircled, those losses were understandable because of the surprise of the modern German tactics. But still morale was kept intact and already in the winter Zhukov could launch counter-attacks near Moscow. Maybe he could have achieved even more if Stalin hadn't redistributed the reinforcements evenly along the entire line instead of letting Zhukov continue his offensive to break and encircle the armored spearhead of the German Northern Army Group?

Kursk - largest tank battle ever! Too bad it's not become a movie or been depicted in a game aiming for total realism ~:)

The Vietcong in the Vietnam war, impressive action from a guerilla force against the most advanced army of the time.

Edit: I have to stop editing this post to add more battles! But I can hardly resist... So difficult to choose...

[English assassin]

The naval battles, especially vs the legendary German battleships - Bismarck, Admiral Graf Spee

I find these rather depressing. (well, Bismark and Tirpitz). Did you know the design of those two ships was so superior the admiralty issued an order Triptiz was not to be engaged by a fleet of less then two King George V class battleships and an aircraft carrier?

What we might have done with equal weaponry...still I suppose we didn't bottle it even so. The eternal lament of the british serviceman.

[KrooK]

There is some battles I really like
From polish history;

- Orsza when 20.000 Poles attacked and massacred 80.000 Russians hidden behind river.
- Obertyn - 6000 Poles massacred vs 35000 Moldavians
- Kłuszyn - 1610 - great epic battle when 6300 polish superb trained heavy cavarlymen, 200 infantrymen and 2 cannont crushed 35000 Russians, Swedens and Frenchies. Poles marched for all night in very bad terrain, fought during day and then marched to their previous position when forced to surrender another russian army ( 8.000)


And some from international history

-O'Connor's offensive in 1940
-Sedan battle
-Wiaźma 1941 - Germans teached Russians what means "surrounding"

[Beirut]

With the provision that favorite means most interesting to study. Not the most "fun".

Agincourt

Zama

T.E. Lawrence's campaign in Arabia

Vimy Ridge :canada:

The Somme & Pashendaele

[Ice]

Yorktown

I thought you were going to say this SFTS:

Appomattox Court House (http://www.cr.nps.gov/hps/abpp/battles/va097.htm)

=)


Lee’s army was now surrounded on three sides. Lee surrendered to Grant on April 9.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

He secretly loves Grant and dispises Lee...

[Lord Winter]

Chancellorsville, just the tactics lees out numbered and out maneuvered force at the beginning wining. And the fact that almost every rule of tactics was broken there.

[Strike For The South]

He secretly loves Grant and dispises Lee...


I thought you were going to say this SFTS:

Appomattox Court House (http://www.cr.nps.gov/hps/abpp/battles/va097.htm)

=)

:no: :furious3: :furious3:

[Alexanderofmacedon]

:no: :furious3: :furious3:

Don't lie...

It'll make your boots get longer...

[Byzantine Prince]

I've become really rusty on my history as of late, but I think that:

Thermopylae - Just the amount of time they were in battle mode is extremely impressive, nevermind what happened.

Battle of Stalingrad - for being so damn brutal

Tyre - amazing in every respect

That is all I know for now. Need to read more history.

[Azi Tohak]

Mohi/Sajo/Mohi Heath whatever. I think that battle is fascinating. Battle of the Indus and the prior invasion of Kwarziam (or however you spell it) is also amazing. Scipio Africanus' counter offensive against Carthage is up there too.

More modern, I like a lot of the transitional battles from bows to guns. The Italian wars between the Spanish and French with Pavia etc were interesting.

Actually modern, Manstien's counterattack in the winter of '43 is amazing.

Azi

[King Kurt]

Interesting that a few people choose Agincourt, because I think Poiters and Crecy were more impressive. Also Waterloo - as i think the Peninsula battles were greater achievments - especially Salamanca.
The naval side of things raises some great material - The armada, anything with Nelson - but especially the Nile and Trafalgar - and the battle of the River Plate. And what about Teranto - about 20 british bi-planes smash the Italian fleet, causing it to redeploy north - and provide the blueprint for Pearl Harbour
I also admire some of the smaller individual acts within larger battles - jackson's flank march at Chancellorsville, the torpedo bombers attack at midway, the british swordfish attack on the Bismark, the british submarine penertrating the Bosphorus in WW1.
Once you start, it is difficult to stop!!:2thumbsup:

[matteus the inbred]

4th Kawanakajima for the almost outrageous losses and supreme tactical ability of both commanders.

i was just reading about that one, absolutely agree. there was even a brief fight between the two leaders, apparently!
Okehazama is one that's always interested me as well.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I find these rather depressing. (well, Bismark and Tirpitz). Did you know the design of those two ships was so superior the admiralty issued an order Triptiz was not to be engaged by a fleet of less then two King George V class battleships and an aircraft carrier?

What we might have done with equal weaponry...still I suppose we didn't bottle it even so. The eternal lament of the british serviceman.

I know they were considered well-made, but not that there was ever an order like that. Anyway, that's what made them so interesting to read about IMO - otherwise the British fleet would have gained naval superiority sooner. Of course it delayed the war so it made life worse for those who lived then :wall: , but that's pretty much the case for all these battles...

===

It looks like I'm missing out on a lot by not reading more about 1600 to 1900 and east Asian history...

[Beirut]

Interesting that a few people choose Agincourt, because I think Poiters and Crecy were more impressive.


Feel free to elaborate. I would enjoy to hear your thoughts on the matter.

[King Kurt]

Feel free to elaborate. I would enjoy to hear your thoughts on the matter.
I do think that Agincourt has benefited over the years from better PR - that Shakespere fellow has a lot to answer for - there is no doubt that it was a magnificent victory, but it had more to do with the crass stupidity of the french repeating the mistakes of Crecy and Poitiers - i.e. frontally charging the well supported longbowmen - and doing it across a muddy swamp. I suppose it was the strategic outcome of the 3 battles which I am judging the battles on. Crecy set the tone for the English dominance of the majority of the Hundred years war, poitiers lead to the financial ruin of france and the english dominance for the following years, whereas the outcome of Agincourt was inconsequential - admittingly in part due to henry 5 dying - so Agincourt feels like a swan song whereas the other 2 battles had significant lasting impacts.:2thumbsup:

[Goalie]

Another one of my favorite battles is the Battle of Alesia. Caeser and the Romans were vastly outnumbered against Vercengetorix and the gauls. Caeser and his bodyguard fought bravely and turned the tides and won the battle. It pretty much ended any organized resistance from the Gauls.

[Beirut]

I do think that Agincourt has benefited over the years from better PR - that Shakespere fellow has a lot to answer for - there is no doubt that it was a magnificent victory, but it had more to do with the crass stupidity of the french repeating the mistakes of Crecy and Poitiers - i.e. frontally charging the well supported longbowmen - and doing it across a muddy swamp. I suppose it was the strategic outcome of the 3 battles which I am judging the battles on. Crecy set the tone for the English dominance of the majority of the Hundred years war, poitiers lead to the financial ruin of france and the english dominance for the following years, whereas the outcome of Agincourt was inconsequential - admittingly in part due to henry 5 dying - so Agincourt feels like a swan song whereas the other 2 battles had significant lasting impacts.:2thumbsup:

Excellent. Good points. But do you base you "appreciation" of Crecy and Poitiers on the battles themselves or their consequences?

Mind you, you have inspired me to read up more on those two battles. A trip to the book store will soon be in order.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I do think that Agincourt has benefited over the years from better PR - that Shakespere fellow has a lot to answer for - there is no doubt that it was a magnificent victory, but it had more to do with the crass stupidity of the french repeating the mistakes of Crecy and Poitiers - i.e. frontally charging the well supported longbowmen - and doing it across a muddy swamp. I suppose it was the strategic outcome of the 3 battles which I am judging the battles on. Crecy set the tone for the English dominance of the majority of the Hundred years war, poitiers lead to the financial ruin of france and the english dominance for the following years, whereas the outcome of Agincourt was inconsequential - admittingly in part due to henry 5 dying - so Agincourt feels like a swan song whereas the other 2 battles had significant lasting impacts.:2thumbsup:

I second Beirut's comment - good points. But didn't the naval battle at Sluys in 1339 perhaps have an even more important role than Crecy? Wikipedia isn't 100% trustworthy and even wikipedia says casualty data from Sluys is probably exaggerated, but even so Sluys IMO appears to have had a greater impact than any of the land battles. Can anyone with better sources than unreliable sources reported through wikipedia :grin: comment on that?

[Orda Khan]

Kalka and Legnica but would probably choose Kalka as 1st choice. Jebe and Subedei, the 2 greatest generals ever in a tremendous display of tactical genius

.......Orda

[Afonso I of Portugal]

1 - Aljubarrota.
2 - Salado.
3 - Las Navas de Tolosa.
4 - Alarcos.
5 - Az-Zallaqah (Sagrajas)
6 - Ourique.
7 - Uclés.

[Marcellus]

Cannae - just brilliant.
Battle of Britain.

[Geezer57]

Another one of my favorite battles is the Battle of Alesia. Caeser and the Romans were vastly outnumbered against Vercengetorix and the gauls. Caeser and his bodyguard fought bravely and turned the tides and won the battle. It pretty much ended any organized resistance from the Gauls.
Just as Cannae may be unique in ancient open-field battles (smaller army enveloping and destroying the larger army), Alesia appears unique in annals of sieges: a "donut" of field fortifications, simultaneously besieging the town of Alesia within while fending off the immense Gaullic assault from without. Has anyone heard of anything similar anywhere?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Yes, it's the circumvallatio used by Romans in many other cases as well, for example against Sarmizegetusa, Massada and other cities/forts I can't recall ATM. Really evil siege method, as it blocks entrance and exit of the besieged, even during the night, and completely cuts off any supplies from reaching the garrison.

[Knight Templar]

Not in particular order

National history:

Sisak 1593- 5 000 Croatian and German soldiers vs 12 000 Turks
Sziget (in Hungary)1566- Nikola Zrinski and 2500 slodiers vs 60 000 Turks under Suleyman II

Internatioanl history:

Cannae-216 BC-due to his excellent tactics great Hannibal's victory
Niniva 627- Heraclius I vs Persians (both sides around 50 000 men)
seas of Constaninopole 674-678- Byzantine vs Arabic navy- first use of Greek fire
Horns of Hattin-1187-AFAIK biggest battle against crusaders (except maybe siege of Antioch and Doryleaum)
Kircholm-1605- Polish defeated numerically superior Swedes
Breitenfeld 1631- first great victory of Gustav II Adolf in 30years war
Stalingrad 1942-1943-very bloody battle with many street fights

[Csargo]

My favorites have to be Agincourt, Operation Barbarossa, and Battle of Britain

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Lots of choices, of course...

As a Yank, I've always been partial to Freeman's Farm/Saratoga.

For sheer impact on the course of human history:

Gaugamela -- Alex was a bit over-rated IMO, but this one battle begat who knows how many efforts at emulation and spurred the efforts of would-be great captains for at least the next 500 years. Caesar had as much or more impact, but not just with one battle.

Frontiers/Tannenberg/Marne -- The failure of the Schlieffen plan and resultant stalemate probably had more influence (directly and indirectly) on the modern world than anything else. I've re-read Tuchman at least 4 times, and when I get to the end-note about St. Cyr I still tear up. What a staggering lot of impact from one 6-week stretch of fighting.

Yes, I'll forgive you if you don't think of it as a battle but as a campaign.

[Avicenna]

Cannae just explains itself

According to wiki, "Battle of Red Cliffs". Three Kingdoms period in China, and the whole fleet of Cao Cao got burned in one brilliant move, destroying his fleet and killing most men on it.

Thermopylae again is self-explanatory.

[matteus the inbred]

Just as Cannae may be unique in ancient open-field battles (smaller army enveloping and destroying the larger army), Alesia appears unique in annals of sieges: a "donut" of field fortifications, simultaneously besieging the town of Alesia within while fending off the immense Gaullic assault from without. Has anyone heard of anything similar anywhere?

The siege of Acre in 1189-91 probably comes close; it was besieged (but probably not circumvallated) by the crusaders and local Franks, who were then subjected to encirclement by the Muslims under Saladin. Cue lots of desperate scraps and sallies and stuff, before the arrival of the Third Crusade saw the fall of the city.

[Prince Cobra]

Cannae. Brilliant!
Alesia. Julius Caesar is one of my favourite generals and in Alesia he showed his best.
The battle of Ninevia(627). The byzantine emperor Heraclius defeated the Persians. That battle led to a byzantine victory in a long and difficult war with Persia (actually the last one)
The three seiges of Constantinople (674-678; 717-718; 1453).The first two are an excellent example for the power of the Byzantine empire. Actually I'm happy that in the second the Bulgarian khan Tervel helped to the Byzantines and attacked the Arabs in the rear... many muslim wives became a widows.:laugh4: (very, very evil ). Well... the last one - that was the end of a great empire :skull: .
Hatin. Good job Sallah-ad-Din!
Las Navas del Tolossa.1212.The great victory of the Christians against the Almohads. A battle with a great impact of the history.
The battle of Kosovo. 1389. This showed the will of the Christian to keep their freedom. Very dramatic- it ends with the death of the two main rivals-
sultan Murad I and prince Lazar. Rather expensive Ottoman victory.
Haleb. In 1516 the Ottoman sultan Selim I crushed in a single battle the Mamelukes and conquered Egypt. The Ottoman empire doubled its size and the Ottoman ruler became a chaliph of the Sunits.
The English victory over the Spanish Armada. My favourite naval battle.
... ( others)

Some connected with Bulgarian history( or why I'm proud to be Bulgarian ~;) ):
811. The Byzantines were defeated in Balkan mountain by Bulgarian khan Krum. Emperor Nicephorus I lost his head and the heir to the throne was hurt badly ( he died some months after that). I can't remember many cases of killed emperors in a battle.
917. Bulgarian tsar Simeon defeated all the Byzantine forces in the European part of the empire.
986. Samuil defeated Basil II. (We all know how good general Basil II was.)
1205 Bulgarian tsar Kaloyan defeated the Crusades of 4th Crusade in the battle of Odrin.Another high ranked loss of the enemy- emp.Baldwin I was captured and killed soon after. He crushed the power of the Latin empire in Constantinople.
1230 The battle of Klokotnitza. Tzar Ivan Asen II defeated the Epiric army,which was twice the Bulgarians and included many elite soldiers. The power of Epir was crushed and its emperor captured (!) and blinded.

:oops: Maybe that was tooooo large post on the topic :dizzy2:

[Craterus]

...

Internatioanl history:

Cannae-202 BC-due to his excellent tactics great Hannibal's victory
...

Cannae was 216 BC.
Zama was 202 BC.

[Knight Templar]

Thanks, I've just corrected it

[Kagemusha]

From 20th century warfare battles of Suomussalmi and Tali-Ihantala.The latter being the biggest single battle in Nordic history:

Battle of Suomussalmi was fought between 11000 Finish soldiers(mostly light infantry versus 50000 Soviets supported by large amount of Tanks It was Brilliant Operation that started from Delay action by Finish and ended up in Annihilation of the Soviet attacking forces by serious of well coordinated counter attacks.Casulties were 950 killed or wounded Fins and 22500 killed or wounded Soviets.The Soviet Divisions also practically lost all their equipment.The tactics Finish employed got the name "Motti".Which means pile of firewood in English.Here is a Operational map of the Battle:

https://img473.imageshack.us/img473/6935/battlesuomussalmi5mk.jpg

Here is a good Wiki link of the battle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Suomussalmi

Battle of Tali Ihantala was the culmination point of Soviet Grand summer offensive 1944 that started the same day as the landing in Normandy.In the battle Finnish forces stopped the Assault of Soviets and after it they didnt attack anymore in Karelian Isthmus in the rest of the War.Finish had 50000 troops against 150000 Soviet troops.The Artillery superiority was 20:1 to Soviets,Finns had 105 planes and 81 allied German aircrafts so together with Germans 186 planes against 1000 Soviet planes.The result of the battle was 8500 killed or wounded Finish and 20000 Soviets and about 600 Soviet tanks destroyed.Here is more info from Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala

[Justiciar]

Naseby.

Agincourt was interesting battle, I suppose. English Longbowmen with dysentry; shit and shoot, shit and shoot, shit and shoot. I love it. I agree that it wasn't acctually an English victory though.. more of a French self-inflicted defeat. Mud, eh? :oops:

[The Wizard]

So very many to choose from... Let's see:

Myriocephalum, Kalka, First Panipat, Tsushima, Operation August Storm, the Six Days' War, and the Yom Kippur War. This is just a small selection, I cannot possibly be forced to choose from (or even name) all the battles that interest me.

[Seagrave]

My favorite is the battle of Midway. A vastley out numbered and out experianced Ameican force defeated a superior Japanise fleet. The battle was a prime example of how important secure comunications are to stratigic battle plans. It also shows how often small details can have massive repercussions. If a single recon plane from the cruiser Tone had not been delayed taking off by an hour, or if the same plane had not developed radio problems an been unable to radio in it's sighting of the US taskforce. This allowed the US both strategic and tactical suprise.

[cunctator]

Idistiaviso
The first roman battle a read about in a primary source. The sheer size of the well balanced roman army still impreses.

Askalon
A single Ala of highly trained roman cavarly defeats a force of several thousand rebells. (According to Josephus they suffered about 10.000 casualties, but that's surely exagerated) It excellently shows that a huge bunch of armed people is not an army.

16th century - Napoleonic seawarfare
Juetland
I was always akind of battle- and sailingship fan.

Salomons campain
extensive amphibous and aerial warfare in a island war setting plus Corsiars, what else does it need?

six day war
simply brilliant plan and execution

[PanzerJaeger]

Many of the grand encirclements of the beginning of Barbarossa. These battles are often not given much attention as the soviets have been written off as easy enemies at that time, but really the tactics and accomplishments of the German military during that time were amazing. The soviets were already numerically superior before the war even started, yet the Germans crushed them.

Also, Kursk of course is one of my favorites. A vicious clash of armor and men.

Any battle's Manstein was a part of are very interesting, especially his retaking of Kursk and actions after Stalingrad. If Hitler had given him more control, he may have turned the whole thing around...

[Kalle]

but really the tactics and accomplishments of the German military during that time were amazing. The soviets were already numerically superior before the war even started, yet the Germans crushed them.


Not very amazing id say, Finns had allready shown the quality of Soviet forces at that time in a much more impressive way then the Germans would do.

That German veterans having had so much training in treacherous cowardly assaults on Poland, Norway, Benelux, France and the Balkans were able to make another treacherous assault and overcome unprepared Soviet troops who at first were not even allowed to return fire is not surprising.


especially his retaking of Kursk and actions after Stalingrad. If Hitler had given him more control, he may have turned the whole thing around...

He also retook Kharkov 1943, I didnt hear much about his retaking of Kursk, no way he would have turned the thing around though, that was beyond Germanys and Mansteins power as history clearly showed.

Kalle

[The Wizard]

You must admit, Kalle, that the Blitzkrieg strategy was only seen in its full glory in Operation Barbarossa. The way the disorganized and ill-led Soviet forces were encircled and mopped up was quite amazing to see from a strategical point of view.

The advance of the Germans was so enormously fast that their armored spearheads were sometimes so far ahead of the supportive infantry that any flanking attack would have destroyed the isolated tanks; but the Soviets were wholly incapable and completely overrun. No, you cannot only attribute the German advance to surprise on the Russian side -- especially if you consider the casualty ratio between German and Soviet soldiers. German soldiers had better training, equipment, experience, discipline and leadership, which is what kept them in the game on the Eastern Front for so long.

[PanzerJaeger]

Not very amazing id say, Finns had allready shown the quality of Soviet forces at that time in a much more impressive way then the Germans would do.

Not really. The battles of '41 and 42' were much larger and was on terrain where numerical superiority in men, tanks, and planes - especially in a defensive role - gave the soviets big advantages. Not to take anything away from the Finns though.. that was an amazing fight they put up.


That German veterans having had so much training in treacherous cowardly assaults on Poland, Norway, Benelux, France and the Balkans were able to make another treacherous assault and overcome unprepared Soviet troops who at first were not even allowed to return fire is not surprising.

Treacherous? Cowardly? Nah.. Hitler was certainly both of those things, but not the German military. Dont forget, even from the beginning France alone had a larger military than Germany, not to mention the contributions of Britain.



He also retook Kharkov 1943, I didnt hear much about his retaking of Kursk, no way he would have turned the thing around though, that was beyond Germanys and Mansteins power as history clearly showed.

My mistake. Kursk was certainly not retaken. The war could certainly have been won, even after Stalingrad had Hitler given the military more leeway.

[econ21]

You must admit, Kalle, that the Blitzkrieg strategy was only seen in its full glory in Operation Barbarossa. The way the disorganized and ill-led Soviet forces were encircled and mopped up was quite amazing to see from a strategical point of view.

I don't find it so amazing after what the Germans had accomplished elsewhere. Yes, Barbarossa was on a bigger scale but the fall of France (and Poland, Norway, Belgium, Holland, Yugoslavia, Greece & Crete) was also pretty spectacular.

To me the amazing thing about the invasion of Russia was the way the Soviets bounced back. I think its true that they lost the majority of their soldiers and equipment in the first year, as well as vast amounts of territory. No great strategy, I guess, but a real triumph of will.

[Kagemusha]

I think Simon Appleton is on after something here.Maybe not Russians but Soviet Union,bulk of their soldiers were not Russians.Like Sun Tzu sayed:The best General is not the one that wons most battles but the one that wins the War.The Russian determination to defend their Rodina,Motherland was almost unbeliavable when they had nowhere to retreat,Like the Russian resistance of Moscow,Leningrad and Stalingrad Showed.
After all the Soviets took the heaviest toll on fighting against Germans and nobody can deny that.On present day,its only guessing how many men,women and children Soviets lost in the war against Germany and her allies.:bow:

[Samurai Waki]

Napoleon's battles in Russia, Eylau and Borodino first come to mind.:2thumbsup:

[Sarmatian]

The turning points of the second world war, stallingrad and el-alamein.
Hannibals campaign against the romans (choose one battle, I don`t care which)

[nokhor]

i'm a sucker for the battles where a general understands his enemies and turns the offenisive potential of his opponent to his disadvantage kinda like akido.

pharsalus, as already posted, where caesar uses his right flank as bait and lays a nasty counterattack for the expected cavalry flanking.

caesar's first campaign in spain during the civil war where he outmaneuvers an opposing force which had the terrain advantage, and through constant moving and flanking surrounds and forces his enemy to surrender with very few casualties to either side. freaking brilliant.

austerlitz, where napoleon gives up the heights to his enemy, and baits them to attack his weak right flank, while he counters up the heights.

battle of france 1940, manstein uses the offensive punch of the allies to separate them from their logistics and trap them on the coast.

cannae, hannibal uses the 'push through the center' philosophy of the romans to get them trapped and surrounded.

battle of the carts, outnumbered genhis khan creates a static battle line instead of the normal battle of mobility between 2 steppe armies.

alexander's battle in the steppe where his slower moving troops are used as bait and surrounded by steppe horsemen, while with a dust screen, he hits them with his mobile troops. a sendetary army defeating a steppe army through mobility and surprise!

[cegorach]

Recently I have rediscovered several little known battles from XVIIth century

and one of them simply stunned me:

Battle at Szkłów in 1654 between 2 500 -3000 Lithuanians and no less than ( checked) 18000 - 20 000 Russians - it was like Thermopylae with Lithuanians charging up to 10 times during the battle they managed to inflict terrible losses ( 6000 - 7000) winning the battle against 8-10 times larger forces. In addition it wasn't the crappy forces the Russians were usually sending ahead, but pretty decent fighting force with many western-type Reiter cavalry, so the victory is even more suprising !

Regards Cegorach :book:

[yesdachi]

There were some excellent battles in Japan, the names of which I will not slaughter but I will say I have always been fascinated by the differences between east and west military strategies.

[Scurvy]

pashcendale (mainly because im learning about it)
assaye
crecy

(no particular order)