Suggestions for v0.8

[Quilts]

One of the (many!) big projects for the next major release is a more realistic growth rate. You're right olly, all of Italy should not have Imperial Palaces by 240 BC.
Hi,

How is it proposed that this may be achieved? In the RTR Forum (no plug intended :embarassed: ) I suggested that a script? limiting population growth to the 1 in 4 turns may be a good thing, perhaps the winter turn etc.

Cheers,

Quilts

[blacksnail]

How is it proposed that this may be achieved? In the RTR Forum (no plug intended :embarassed: ) I suggested that a script? limiting population growth to the 1 in 4 turns may be a good thing, perhaps the winter turn etc.
A variety of methods including a hard look at how farming currently works, what we want it to do, how the 4 turns per year affects growth, how the Huge units option can affect things - and yes, scripting is also an option.

And no worries mate, RTR is a great game! I still need to check out the Platinum Edition but have been too busy to do so. I barely get to play EB, let alone any other game. :beam:

[Lovejoy]

Indeed. Lovejoy, it's an interesing suggestion but just isn't possible due to the way the RTW engine works. Oh, I should have figured.

Well, I am no modder and I know close to nothing about the RTW engine. But wouldnt it be possible to amke the victory conditions region based instead?

It would make sence. Because lets say im playng as Gaul. One of the victory conditions is to destroy the Sweboz(dunno if thats the case). But Sweboz have grown strong and have conqured the steps. Gaul had none intrest in the steps, now i need to conquer it. Wrong?

Maybe an bad exemple, but you get the idea.

Its prob too much work, too little effect. But well. :beam:

[swhunter]

HI !

First of all the best modd i have seen yet! :beam:
I love the map! And all the events on them gives you the feel of real greece
and other lands!
All units are excellant ! In all locations.
But i do miss the Spartan old helmits could it be possiable
to add a few more units in for sparta?
The ATG spartans with the spear? and old time armour and helmits?
And maybe a unit with only swords?
I do understand its not the historical peroid at this time 270 b.c.
But neither was the greek army riseing to power !
Or other factions playable to rewrite history! :yes:
I love the music and new factions is well done!

I also love the weather skys on the battlefield
but i do see other versions of weather stormclouds ect.
On these modds Barebones, and the new one comeing out Roma surrectum
I do you will add them also!
Now are all the romans up to date?
Are the M.L. Pack for romans historical also?
thanks for answering all these newbee questions.!
:2thumbsup: :yes: :knight: :charge:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Oh, I should have figured.

Well, I am no modder and I know close to nothing about the RTW engine. But wouldnt it be possible to amke the victory conditions region based instead?

It would make sence. Because lets say im playng as Gaul. One of the victory conditions is to destroy the Sweboz(dunno if thats the case). But Sweboz have grown strong and have conqured the steps. Gaul had none intrest in the steps, now i need to conquer it. Wrong?

Maybe an bad exemple, but you get the idea.

Its prob too much work, too little effect. But well. :beam:

Short answer:
Partially they already work that way, but the destroy or outlive faction conditions add some more.

Long answer:
Ah, but the beauty of the way the current victory conditions work is this:
A) Carve out a whole Empire of your own
B) (Optional, right?) Destroy or Outlive those nasty enemies you had ever since...
or C) Get yourself a decent treasury... (dunno if that's still one, but in 0.7.4 it was something the Yuezhi had to meet...)
Part of B) is A), because you're going to carve out your empire at your inital enemies' expense...

AFAIK:
B) Comprises, generally speaking, the factions you need to remove to achieve something greater, something beyond merely conquering & looting till your heart's content...

Let's take the Seleukids for an example: they basically have to restore Alexander's Empire. As have (have they?) the other Succersor states.
Koinon Hellenon needs to re-establish the Greek World of the Ancient times...
Gauls are in a civil strife, and so one faction will need to remove the other to claim hegemony over all the Gauls...
All factions that stand in your way to the broader more historical achievements need to removed.

That's why you might end up in the steppes: not to conquer them, but to eliminate that 'so called rival' that prevent's you from claiming whatever you would like to claim... (Well, to whatever A) & B) amounts to.)

[Gazius]

I have doubts as to whether this will recieve attention at all, nor is it something that I consider entirely plausible for a game like EB, but re-emerging factions are, in a very crude sense, possible.

Now, if all factions had the chance to re-emerge, it might be a bit of a drain, but I propose that for certain factions; Iberians, maybe Romans, KH, Aedui or Arvernii, Getai, and maybe a couple eastern ones as well, whether on the steppes or south of it, a city is syphoned off from the Germanic, eastern Russia portion of the map, and put in the sahara, as a national homeland province of that culture. They will always exist there. Then include a script that would have them rise again, if every last city of theirs fell except for that one, having them re-appear in the capital or whatever city is felt to be appopriate. The faction may never truly die, it's simply locked away. Give it only starting troops, allow no recruitment, and if possible make the barrier surrounding it as tight as possible, maybe up to the city limits. That should hopefully prevent the AI from actually doing anything in that city, since recruitment is non existent, the population should, if it can, either be locked at a very low number, or have everything already maxed out.

[Eduorius]

Hi!

I think that after this mod having so an awesome music, I think the next step could be an awesome Intro video with some of the awesome units EB have.

Dont have to be so complicated. Just a battle scene or something like that.

I think that would be awesome. This could even advertise the mod to others if the video gets to Youtube.

Thanks =)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We really would like to get an intro video for our different factions too, but we just haven't had anyone able to do it. If someone has real skills and interest in this area they should let us know about it.

[Caveira]

I have suggestion too: RTR has been granted authorization by the EB team to use their Phalangitai animations, right? Well, so, they owe you one, make them pay by allowing you to use their strategical map textures, which are much better than yours (vanilla). Both mods only win by helping each other! :yes:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

What do you mean though in "strategical map textures"? The captains and characters on the strat map? Those are versions of our units. We still have hopes of changing our diplomats and spies and assassins up, but we just haven't gotten to it yet. Do you mean something else?

[Dumbass]

I think he means ground textures eg. Grass, desert, mountain, water

[-Praetor-]

If it`s not much to ask, could someone place 1 screenshots of each next to eachother, in order to compare? :surprised:

Cuz I don`t remember any difference, really. :dozey:

Then again my visual memory it`s really crappy. :grin:

[MiniMe]

I'm very curious about very strange Klerouchikon Agema (Ptolemaic Heavy Phalanx) stats: Attack - 16 and Defence - 19 (instead of 15/20 or 17/23).
What was so special about them?
Are they elite or they are not?
Was it done on purpose or it is a bug?
sorry if it was mentioned before

[QwertyMIDX]

They're pretty elite, basically they serve the same role in the Ptolemaic army as the more well known Argyraspidai in the seleukid army. They had very screwed up recruitment in .8 but that should be fixed in .81 with another, less elite, Phalangitai unit making a more serious apperence in both the Ptol and Seleukid armies.

[-Praetor-]

The Ekdromoi Hoplitae and the Hoplitai (Classical) have almost identical stats.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Just noticed this thread passed the magic number and needs to be retired. But I was thinking maybe we could let it go just a bit more (since we expect 0.81 very soon) - hopefully we could start a new one "Suggestions for v0.82? or v0.9? or whatever?"

[-Praetor-]

You can just edit the thread title...

[Tuuvi]

Just noticed this thread passed the magic number and needs to be retired. But I was thinking maybe we could let it go just a bit more (since we expect 0.81 very soon) - hopefully we could start a new one "Suggestions for v0.82? or v0.9? or whatever?"
It would also be cool in the new suggestions thread to list new features that are already in or are being worked on so us fans don't waste our time posting useless suggestions and so we have an idea of what is going on.

[silverster]

I would love some nice textures for the armies. the early republic legions are at best, bland, the hastatis looks just like the Rotarri's (sp?) and hastati are supposed to be from the rich classes.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

What can we say - it's the way they looked. We all might get more excited about cooler looking equipment/etc., but we aren't making a TNT mini-series here where it's more important to have them look cooler than having them look accurate.

[silverster]

No no no, I did meant that, I meant that there should be a bit of difference from the rich classes's textures to the cheap classes of roman citizens, IE: the breast plate, or in princep's case the chain main armor.

for example:http://www.hat.com/Curr/ewhast1b.jpg

I understand that in some drawings the legions only wear a white overall, but if i am from the rich classes, I would at least have a brestplate wouldn't I?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The Polybian Hastati look almost exactly like that guy.

[Schatten]

Hallo, first i´m from Germany so sorry for all mistaken in the article now ;)

So i have now play both mods, RTR and Barbarorum and at last Barb. ist the better one but should have some changes (if possible).

First it were nice to import a change like the RTR Naval and City Mod, that allows to build warships only in few Ports and more important that allows only very few Citys to reach the highest Level as it was in the real World at this time.
So removing from Wall´s from most City´s and allow only few really important City´s to build them were ok.

Since the City´s in Barb. grow really to fast, after some time you have overall Lv 5 City´s....not very realistic.

Next were the Goverment form...1&2 are ok so but 3&4 are not, 99% People take Goverment form 3 except 4 if the the only allowed so 4 ist really useless in this form.
Maybe it were possible to leave Goverment 3 as only possibility for Outlaying Region´s and install Allied Goverment 4 as a true Allied Goverment.
If you Conquer a Region you dont wish to take ( as i have play Roman i have had to conquer the whole Swaboz(German´s) since the dont stop to attack me and so, to avoid attacks with full stacks ever turn, i have conquer City after City until Swaboz collapses and i have found myself at Baltic Sea....i never wish to go so far North and have had much small Barbarian City´s that have make only anger!...so back to Goverment ;) ) and you want those Region only as a Puffer (dont known the english word for this...a form of Neutral Zone from Star Trek^^) between you and you Enemy or Barbarian´s so maybe it were possible to install here a true Ally Goverment 4 that is you Client, hast to pay you Contribution etc. but rules his City for himself, defend it etc. this were a really good Idea for Goverment 4 i think.
This would allow you to save much cash and troops that you would need for the City but give you still much profit from Trade, Taxes etc. like it was in old times too.

Naval Siege´s of Harbor´s....as i have hear the AI cannot end a turn with Debt and a cheat allow´s the AI to have everytime enogh Cash to maintein Troops so Naval Siege´s from Human Player v AI useless...you dont stop his Cashflow, AI can still Build ships....
Mayby ist possible to change the Script in the way that ships dont allowed to build under Siege of Harbor (like Troops in the City) or maybe a Siege should make a hard pressure v AI to offer Ceasefire....

At last the whole Turn Recruit System from Command&Conquer....so stupid as it war in ever Game ;)
Maybe it were Possible to change the Recruit System from Build Units to draft People (like it is in Reallity)....you draft People (or Mercenarie´s for Merc Units etc.) in a Pool and Armouries no longer imporve the Armor but build Armor´s and Equipment in a Pool too.
So you set a Legion in let´s say Galien...now you put as exempel 10 Cohortas Leginaires, 4 Cavallery, 2 Archer´s etc. Now every turn Soldier´s, Mercenary´s, Ballaista´s etc (depend of what for Units you want have inside) flow from the overall Pool into the Legion...as better you Streets, higher Law in the Province, no Enemy Units betwen you Legion and the next City as more People and Equipment will come every Turn....same way after battle to refull Casaulties....

This would allow to hold the Legion´s really in the field or Camp´s as it was in reallity i think and make the draft and replacment system much more realistic and Comfortable as those "Unit Building/Turn"

So now Enough ;) thank´s you for a great Game

[cyberVIP]

2Teleklos Archelaou
From TWC we`ve known about plans of romoving epic walls in ff EB 0.81
Can it be another solution like to rise construction time&cost (for ex: Kart-Hadastrim mercantile ext docks with ~60trns) or lower damage from towers. We all like them for our capitals - U know :)

[sages]

I think that .81 was just a rumor started by my girlfiend to keep me from playing EB during my week off at Christmas. But moving on...

EB is the best mod I've ever played; it's tied for first with the original Aliens total conversion for DOOM II (some few of you may know what I'm talking about). That said, it's not perfect. Things that *I* think *might* make EB a better game. I'm sure some people will disagree with some or all of these points, but here I go anyway:

1) Ditch seasons and go back to 2 turns per year. I think that the game play is too slow at 4 ypt, personally speaking. It's not that hard to acheive many factions goals by 200 b.c., meaning that much late game development has been wasted. OR, add in a 'late game start' that would commence around 120 b.c.?

2) Beef up chariots a bit. I tweaked them to 2/3 hitpoints and more armor and they STILL suck. Or give the casse an infantry-based leader (preferred).

3) Increase the cost and upkeep of both assassins and diplomats. They are too cheap, IMO, for the revised enconomy that EB has.

4) Remove spies from the game or increase cost and upkeep quite a bit (not my idea, but it's a good one). This will force you to use light cavalry for screening and scouting. This is good. The downside -- I'm not sure the AI will handle this properly...

5) Increase the quality and cost of the levy's / crappy troops somewhat. This will help the AI, which tends to over recruit cheap troops.

6) Nerf Gaesatae a bit at the same time. They don't need 2 hp, IMO. Blood loss will incapacitate even the most motivated of fighters. I think that morale and defensive skill are a sufficient measurement of motivation.

7) Decrease the initial recruitment cost of all troops. Increase the upkeep cost of all troops. In every historical text I've read, raising armies isn't terribly difficult, but maintaining them in the field is enormously expensive. If the game system had a way to limit the numbers of special troop-types (triarii, gaesatae, whatever), I would be in favor of reducing the delta between least and most expensive troops (since I don't believe that was historically the limiting factor for fielding high vs. low quality troops).

8) If it's possilble in scripts, calculate some of the upkeep cost for units that are garrisoned in cities, and refund it to the faction treasury. Might max at certain level depending on size.

9) Poorly supplied troops in the field could suffer casualties, similar to when being be-sieged. Could they be given the 'plagued' or 'besieged' state via scripting without actually starting major plagues?

Don't kill me, these are just my random ideas, and I make no warranty of quality. :=)

Sage

[Tellos Athenaios]

Hallo, first i´m from Germany so sorry for all mistaken in the article now ;)

So i have now play both mods, RTR and Barbarorum and at last Barb. ist the better one but should have some changes (if possible).

First it were nice to import a change like the RTR Naval and City Mod, that allows to build warships only in few Ports and more important that allows only very few Citys to reach the highest Level as it was in the real World at this time.
So removing from Wall´s from most City´s and allow only few really important City´s to build them were ok.

Since the City´s in Barb. grow really to fast, after some time you have overall Lv 5 City´s....not very realistic.

Next were the Goverment form...1&2 are ok so but 3&4 are not, 99% People take Goverment form 3 except 4 if the the only allowed so 4 ist really useless in this form.
Maybe it were possible to leave Goverment 3 as only possibility for Outlaying Region´s and install Allied Goverment 4 as a true Allied Goverment.
If you Conquer a Region you dont wish to take ( as i have play Roman i have had to conquer the whole Swaboz(German´s) since the dont stop to attack me and so, to avoid attacks with full stacks ever turn, i have conquer City after City until Swaboz collapses and i have found myself at Baltic Sea....i never wish to go so far North and have had much small Barbarian City´s that have make only anger!...so back to Goverment ;) ) and you want those Region only as a Puffer (dont known the english word for this...a form of Neutral Zone from Star Trek^^) between you and you Enemy or Barbarian´s so maybe it were possible to install here a true Ally Goverment 4 that is you Client, hast to pay you Contribution etc. but rules his City for himself, defend it etc. this were a really good Idea for Goverment 4 i think.
This would allow you to save much cash and troops that you would need for the City but give you still much profit from Trade, Taxes etc. like it was in old times too.

Naval Siege´s of Harbor´s....as i have hear the AI cannot end a turn with Debt and a cheat allow´s the AI to have everytime enogh Cash to maintein Troops so Naval Siege´s from Human Player v AI useless...you dont stop his Cashflow, AI can still Build ships....
Mayby ist possible to change the Script in the way that ships dont allowed to build under Siege of Harbor (like Troops in the City) or maybe a Siege should make a hard pressure v AI to offer Ceasefire....

At last the whole Turn Recruit System from Command&Conquer....so stupid as it war in ever Game ;)
Maybe it were Possible to change the Recruit System from Build Units to draft People (like it is in Reallity)....you draft People (or Mercenarie´s for Merc Units etc.) in a Pool and Armouries no longer imporve the Armor but build Armor´s and Equipment in a Pool too.
So you set a Legion in let´s say Galien...now you put as exempel 10 Cohortas Leginaires, 4 Cavallery, 2 Archer´s etc. Now every turn Soldier´s, Mercenary´s, Ballaista´s etc (depend of what for Units you want have inside) flow from the overall Pool into the Legion...as better you Streets, higher Law in the Province, no Enemy Units betwen you Legion and the next City as more People and Equipment will come every Turn....same way after battle to refull Casaulties....

This would allow to hold the Legion´s really in the field or Camp´s as it was in reallity i think and make the draft and replacment system much more realistic and Comfortable as those "Unit Building/Turn"

So now Enough ;) thank´s you for a great Game

Naval stuff, I suggest you give it closer look:
1) By far the most coastal provinces can't even build warships at all...
2) If I'm not mistaken, due to the way RTW works you are only prevented to recruit, anything, when a settlement is besieged...
Recruitment: requires a script like RES GESTAE got, and that's just Roman only... It would be hughe, and as far as I know EB members have stated that such things are not to be expected soon... Besides, EB has nearly reached it's building limits, and so I guess the focuss would be on factional buildings of unfinished factions, but that's just me...
Government: suggest you try different factions, because government bonuses & such depend on what faction you're playing, if I'm correct. Also, type 4 & 3 are not meant to be 'nice', they're meant to be a 'make do solution'. 4 is especially good for your coffers...

[silverster]

How about adding a Legio banner as an Ancillary?

I mean if your character is marching an army for more than, say 2 turns or so, It would be great to have a legio banner under the character along with the veterans and sheild holders would be cool.

[QwertyMIDX]

1) Ditch seasons and go back to 2 turns per year. I think that the game play is too slow at 4 ypt, personally speaking. It's not that hard to acheive many factions goals by 200 b.c., meaning that much late game development has been wasted. OR, add in a 'late game start' that would commence around 120 b.c.?

Unfortunatly for you, you're the odd man out on this one, almost everyone loves the 4 turns per year. Also we've been trying to slow things down in other ways, so hopefully things aren't gonna to be as fast in the next build, and even slower in the one after that, etc. I don't know if we can do a late start, I don't think we can. If you like I can try and get a scripter to tell you how to turn off 4 turns per year in your game though.


2) Beef up chariots a bit. I tweaked them to 2/3 hitpoints and more armor and they STILL suck. Or give the casse an infantry-based leader (preferred).

As of .8 chariot stats weren't done, hopefully we get them to work better in .81. TK is working on it.


3) Increase the cost and upkeep of both assassins and diplomats. They are too cheap, IMO, for the revised enconomy that EB has.

4) Remove spies from the game or increase cost and upkeep quite a bit (not my idea, but it's a good one). This will force you to use light cavalry for screening and scouting. This is good. The downside -- I'm not sure the AI will handle this properly...

Haven't really gotten a chance to deal with agents yet, we'll see what happens as we move foward.


5) Increase the quality and cost of the levy's / crappy troops somewhat. This will help the AI, which tends to over recruit cheap troops.

They're already pretty decent and fairly expensive. Under the right circumstances levy troops can kick ass (the huge unit sizes don't hurt), but I don't think we're going to make the stats unbalanced historically just to help the AI, if you want that just play on hard or very hard battle difficulty.


6) Nerf Gaesatae a bit at the same time. They don't need 2 hp, IMO. Blood loss will incapacitate even the most motivated of fighters. I think that morale and defensive skill are a sufficient measurement of motivation.

Not motivation, drugs. Like a guy on PCP today, can take a bullet to the heart and run for minutes afterwards. After the battle they'd probably die, but not after killing ten enemies after they should have been dead.


7) Decrease the initial recruitment cost of all troops. Increase the upkeep cost of all troops. In every historical text I've read, raising armies isn't terribly difficult, but maintaining them in the field is enormously expensive. If the game system had a way to limit the numbers of special troop-types (triarii, gaesatae, whatever), I would be in favor of reducing the delta between least and most expensive troops (since I don't believe that was historically the limiting factor for fielding high vs. low quality troops).

Maybe in the future. Although massing an army wasn't cheap or easy (it took a long time and depending on the type of solider and could cost a lot of money, depend on who paid for equipment, the state or the solider). Currently the intial recruitment cost is 4 times the upkeep, essentialy every year you pay for the unit over again, pretty expensive really. The problem here is that RTW is built as though every faction was made up of professional, state-armed troops in a standing army. Of course this isn't the case for most units in EB, but we're kind of limited here as to what we can really do. The fact that the AI is designed to handle the original RTW recruitment system doesn't help either...


8) If it's possilble in scripts, calculate some of the upkeep cost for units that are garrisoned in cities, and refund it to the faction treasury. Might max at certain level depending on size.

Why? Garrison troops were just as expensive as any other kind. Often more expensive, troops on campaign could live off the land and plunder to some extent, if you didn't want the people bieng garrisoned to turn against you it was wise not to force them to feed, cloth, and house their oppressors entirely out of their pocket.


9) Poorly supplied troops in the field could suffer casualties, similar to when being be-sieged. Could they be given the 'plagued' or 'besieged' state via scripting without actually starting major plagues?

Hell, well supplied troops in the field suffered causalities from sickness, accidents, and desertion. For most of history death or injury in battle was generally the least of the circumstances that whittled away an army. Unfortunately the boys at CA didn't give us anyway to make that happen, the best we can do is sap their morale via traits, which we do. We can't make the game think they're undersiege, and plauges are pretty much random events (IIRC if we know character names we can do something, but we'd only be able to do it for the first generation of characters and I might even be wrong about that). Scripting can do a lot for us, but this is beyond even that.

[bovi]

7) I was thinking earlier to only allow recruitment of poorly trained troops, and given time campaigning, stationed in a garrison or doing battle they would upgrade into experienced and elite unit types (at increasing rates later in the sentence), with better equipment bought with their wages, looted from the enemy or bought in exchange for loot. Unfortunately there is no way to store such variables on units, as far as I know, and the idea was quickly shot down as unfeasible due to hardcoding, and historical reasons (which were not specified but I'm sure there are some) as well.

Limiting the amount of elite troops versus poorly trained ones would be easier with MTW2's recruitment system, as elites could become available again only a good while after recruiting one, and poorly trained troops would be more readily available. It's a long way ahead to EB2 though...

9) So there is no API to find whether an army is besieging an enemy, or there is no API to do stuff with the troops when you do find they are doing it?

[Gazius]

Is it possible to add loyalty for certain factions only? Or else manipulate it so that it only works for certain factions? Having the Aedui/Arvernii loyalty waiver so that a unit might change hands would be rather interesting, or else, if the loyalty requires a shadow faction, make the Arvernii one?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Loyalty doesn't actually do anything for 1.5. We wish it did, but...

[Dumbass]

How exactly does loyalty work in barbar? Do you need a shadow faction?

[Tuuvi]

Loyalty doesn't actually do anything for 1.5. We wish it did, but...
So are you saying that it worked for 1.2 but it doesn't work for 1.5?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

No, it's listed as a bonus (when the game first came out it was in a list of bonuses), and although we have had it as a bonus for a while with our govt buildings, it apparently does nothing in the game itself. We still used it, hoping that it had a benefit we didn't see somehow, but in the most recent changes in unique buildings I'm doing I have removed it.

[Foot]

So are you saying that it worked for 1.2 but it doesn't work for 1.5?

loyalty never appeared in 1.2, its a BI thing only.

Foot

[sages]

Hi Qwerty --

Thanks for the response to my like spew.

I'd definiltely like to see the game slowed down in terms of development and pace, I just want to see 2 ypt. That said, I already stripped out the scripting for this in my game, so I'm not too worried. :=) I wasn't able (errr... too lazy) to find a way to keep the winter and summer effects for arid and cold regions. Meh, no biggie.

Reg. garrison troops, I think that MOST garrisoned troops would actually have been semi-self sustaining when in garrison for more than a year or so. They would have vegtable gardens, being doing work for the civilians as crafts people and so forth. Some troops (i.e. levies) should be almost free because they probably don't must more than once or twice a year to stomp around on empty fields and drink beer. But, thus your point about RTWs army modeling. :=)

Best,

Sage

[CountArach]

An idea for a trait that struck me:

"Writer of Tactics"

Basically this would be reserved for highly intelligent generals who have reached a decent command star level and have the trait "Grizzled". It would allow for people like Phyrrus, who wrote books on Tactics and warfare.

I suppose for effects it would provide influence and perhaps a command star.

[bovi]

Good one Arach, I second that! Also, possibly give a slight increase in chance of younger generals learning tactics in school when you've had such a general? Although, rather than a command star I'd give him +1 (or 2?) to morale; he doesn't really get better by writing but his troops would know they were led by a great and famous general.

[russia almighty]

Speaking of the class divide in the hastati , princepe's ect , would a rich hastati probably be wearing chain mail and not just a heart protector?

[swhunter]

When are the new updates ?

think the saprtans hemets could be changed.
see hellenic art .com
the thess. helmet is cool 200 b.c.
and the athans helmet in later years.

maybe lose the beard ? or not?
thks

[ForVictory]

Pls make the info descriptions of some units and especially buildings shorter... I'd like to learn history but this is just too much for a game where i just want o continue playing with this great mod and its even already a very slow process with the 4 seasons.

I'd like to see all units that can throw spears actually carry them as well cause some units only show up with there swords and u can forget about them having an missle attack sometimes and it would also be more realistic ofcourse.

I think it would be better if cities have less buildings at the start of the campaign so u can build and follow them urself better.

[Gazius]

Will anything be implemented in the game to let you know of special city alliances, or of the missions you can do such as Makedonia restoring Alexanders body? Speaking of that mission specifically, could it be expanded to have a new unique building show up to honor his corpse?

Or is there stuff there already for both that I've just missed?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

I'd like to see all units that can throw spears actually carry them as well cause some units only show up with there swords and u can forget about them having an missle attack sometimes and it would also be more realistic ofcourse.
Hi,
All units that can throw javelins carry them either attached onto their sheild or somewhere on their armour/body. Some units which can throw javelins as their primary weapon, for example a skirmishers, do actually carry them in their hands until they run out. After that they carry their secondary weapon, their sword or their secondary spear. Cheers!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

A few replies:

-We won't be shortening the building descriptions. Sorry, but it's easy to skip over them if you think they are too long. You can usually gather the basic information you need in the first line or two from them, or just from the name.
-A building to house Alexander's body in Pella would be cool, but we are really really short on building space, especially for Greek and EastGreek factions. *Especially* for those.
-Most people on the team are very happy with the 4 turn a year situation. I can't imagine that being changed.
-We also are very happy with pilos helmets for Spartans (and their accuracy) and won't be changing those.
-Having less buildings in cities also probably won't happen. We have to give them fewer than they really had to encouraging the "building up" part of the game, but we want to get them balanced to show what cities really were powerful in 272 (Alexandria for one, for example) vs. those that were not.

[blacksnail]

loyalty never appeared in 1.2, its a BI thing only.
There are two kinds of loyalty - the BI character trait for family members and the Population Loyalty bonus, which does not actually do anything. I think Dave and Lignator are referring to the latter.

[Tuuvi]

I was talking about the loyalty trait. I always used to worry about having unloyal family members as governors and generals but I guess I don't need to anymore, although it is fun to roleplay.

[ForVictory]

-Make your mercenaries have a moral penalty when fighting against someone who has the same culture as theres

- have 3turns instead: 8th month; augustus(summer), 12th months december(winter) and april spring... cause 4 turns is really too much of good.

I also noticed units get exhausted very fast, pls make it slower cause its easy to cheat on that because the ai cant handle fatigue very good unlike the human player.

And for the love of god please fix the right pictures of the units in the next mod...

[Gazius]

There's no way to give merc's a morale penalty when fighting the same culture as theirs, unless their lead by a general, and there's no way to force the AI to use generals.

The four turn yea is too good? It extends the campaign out too long? The idea is to have a very long campaign, although I agree that more could be done to make the 4 turn year matter more, such as a large campaign map, but that won't be implemented in EB1. It might for EB2.

The units getting exhausted quickly means you need to try more tactics, use a more varied army to get the most out of your units.

.81 will likely be the end of the grey peasant.

[sages]

I'm a big fan of the fatigue penalties. It makes using a multi-layered army with lighter troops in front and triarii or elites in the rear a very viable tactic. The light troops fight until they need to be rotated out.

[Gazius]

-A building to house Alexander's body in Pella would be cool, but we are really really short on building space, especially for Greek and EastGreek factions. *Especially* for those.

This is why I strongly suggest dropping the blacksmith tree. It'd free up to, if my understanding is correct, 9 more spaces for unique buildings, or else another building tree, though I think what EB has already is fine for constructable buildings. I'd suggest maybe something to combat squalor, but if the growth rates are to be fixed eventually, then its pointless.

Currently the blacksmith is able to give new equipment to any soldiers that come to request it, but, and if there is founding for it I'm curious, was there really any smaller towns who would equip a entire army with better gear than what the finest troops got from the best garrison/recruiting stations in the empire? My suggestion for the integrated effects, unless the new conditions upon the building cause a problem, in which case I still would support scraping the blacksmith, would be:

Level 4 faction MIC bronze
Level 5 faction MIC silver
Level 5 region MIC bronze

On capping growth, for the barbarians I would suggest capping it rather lowly, and then using scripts to replenish the source to model how they recruited not from large cities like the civilized factions, but from peoples out in the country.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

You have given me another idea though Gazius, about controlling population. Maybe making a first level for the colony complex - let it be a "scout for colony location" - and not be terribly expensive. Then it could branch (for greeks and romans and carthies) into a colony building.

But maybe we could have it branch into other complexes as well - as options. And other, non-colony using, factions could benefit from them. Like those "decrees" some people have mentioned in the population thread. To issue the decree - let it cost money and maybe even give a little unrest or something, but ultimately reduce population growth for the cities that have it.

[Bava]

Maybe a stupid idea, but why not give government buildings (Imperial Palace and
the like) a population decreasing effect? First level -0,5%, second level -1%, and so on, except for historically large cities (Rom, Quart Hadasht, etc.).

Edit: Oh, and a question i wanted to ask for a long time but always forgot: Is there a reason why
makedonia isnt able to recruit Thorakitai?

[blacksnail]

That's actually a very neat idea worth pursuing. Thanks!

EDIT: Because recruitment in 0.80 is kind of messed up, is my knee-jerk response. ~:)

[Conqueror]

Maybe a stupid idea, but why not give government buildings (Imperial Palace and
the like) a population decreasing effect? First level -0,5%, second level -1%, and so on, except for historically large cities (Rom, Quart Hadasht, etc.).
That'd mean that the larger a city grows, the more difficult it becomes to increase the population further. I like the thought of that, it would definetly cut down on the number of huge cities. Even more importantly, you'd actually need to invest in farms and such to get the big cities. As it currently is, many cities will grow to max size even without all the farm upgrades and the like.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Maybe a stupid idea, but why not give government buildings (Imperial Palace and
the like) a population decreasing effect? First level -0,5%, second level -1%, and so on, except for historically large cities (Rom, Quart Hadasht, etc.).
I have noticed something that I want someone who knows RTW to confirm for me. I one time tried implimenting this very thing for myself once. It didn't really work. At least for me, the game didn't want to give me negative bonuses. If I had possitive bonuses, the negative would cancel them out, but it wouldn't give me direct negative bonuses. (Example: Two cities. City A: growth rate 3% (no bonuses) City B: growth rate 1%, population bonus 1% (2% total)... I then gave all towns -2%... results: City A: 3% City B: 1%). I didn't delete the map.rmv or start a new campaign, but EDB edits don't normally require that. Was I just crazy back then or is this true?

[blacksnail]

Correct, negative bonuses only ever cancel out positive bonuses of an identical type.

[Gazius]

You have given me another idea though Gazius, about controlling population. Maybe making a first level for the colony complex - let it be a "scout for colony location" - and not be terribly expensive. Then it could branch (for greeks and romans and carthies) into a colony building.

But maybe we could have it branch into other complexes as well - as options. And other, non-colony using, factions could benefit from them. Like those "decrees" some people have mentioned in the population thread. To issue the decree - let it cost money and maybe even give a little unrest or something, but ultimately reduce population growth for the cities that have it.

Scout[cheap] > Minor Colony[somewhat expensive, I would hope this would be the general size that they reach] > Large Colony[expensive on par with a level 8 trading port, enabling the recruitment of some of the factions troops with a exp bonus]

Also, quick thought before I'm out, has EB considered using the empty slots of building trees for wonders with unreachable requirements?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Correct, negative bonuses only ever cancel out positive bonuses of an identical type.

Thanks. I thought I was stupid/crazy since nobody ever mentioned that.

I think it was AurthuranTW that had a decreesing positive bonus that worked something like the before mentioned system. (2% pop growth for town, 1.5% for large town, 1% for city) A system that could also gives variable growth based on faction?

[QwertyMIDX]

I think we should all wait and play some on the next build before worrying about this too much. We slashed BFL's (which provide the base rate of population growth among other things) by over 50% across the board. We from an average of about 5 to one a little under 2. That is an average drop in growth of 1.5% right there. My next goal is actually to make large and huge cities require lots of time and money invested in infrastructure to get. That's for the build after next, but rest assured, we're working away at it. :2thumbsup:

[Gazius]

I've been considering making some modifications to the personality trait system, and thought it would be worthwhile to post my thoughts on the revamp to the EB team or at least in the fan distraction thread so the real work can be done. I'm currently attempting to make these modifications myself, so that I may learn how to script and trait in order to help out in that department in EB.

First off, I would suggest a reworking for the Loyalty trait. Split it into two different main traits, one for a loyal citizen, and one for indifference and sedition, using the Loyalty trait to provide points towards the threshold of each sub-traits. Ethnicity could also play a role in determing their loyalty. If a character is bribed, their loyalty status would change automatically, however depending on ethnicity and the faction that bribed him, the level would vary. A makedonian ptolemiac bribed by Makedonia would probably be more loyal than phoenician bribed by makedonia.

Starting with the loyal citizen; level 1 would carry a very slight positive bonus, 'vaguely believes in his factions cause'. Level 2 faithful, and this is what I imagine most family members would have, a moderate sized bonus against bribery. Level 3 would be a devout follower, giving a good sized bonus, and provided he has the proper Charisma or maybe just influence, a morale bonus as well. Level 4, zealous, a large bonus and a -1 to influence, as I doubt the guy at this point is exactly sane, and maybe a little touched in the head, er, by the gods. If he has low charisma, a negative morale bonus of 1, or positive 1 for high. At this stage there is no going back.

For the seditious side of loyalty, I would suggest tying in intelligence and charisma, and maintain the same value as the loyal side, simply negative instead of positive. I would also like to hide the true status of the seditious side of loyalty if they have high charisma/intelligence, keeping in tune with how they appear to their fellows.

Events that might lead to it being; Being bumped as faction heir ,bribe attempts, how important a role he plays in your game, if you take all his ancillaries, post him in a fort on a frontier that never sees battle, make him govern a level 1 city, yet another effect of being a uncomfortable supervisor. Indifferent should be a naturally obtainable level, and venal could also arise simply from vice like gambling.

Level 1 'indifferent to his faction' giving no bonus or penatly to bribe resistance, possibly a small negative influence bonus, and checks to see if the man is either moderate in charisma or intelligence, masking his willingness to accept bribes, or else a otherwise good enough fellow that it doesn't matter. Level 2 is venal, and requires a high stat in either charisma or intelligence to avoid a moderate sized influence penalty. I doubt a person who cared little for his faction was let into the inner circles who made decisions affecting the people. Level 3 would be seditious, giving the enemy a temporary line of sight bonus, a morale bonus, and maybe more command stars(?) whenever they come into contact with each other through a new trait lasting for a short set amount of time, maybe half a year or a full year. At this point I would suggest a second trait/script that checks to see whether a person has the seditious trait level 3, and then has a random chance, depending on Int/Char, as to whether he will reach the fourth level, open traitor. A negative influence at this point is worthless because he will either be detected, or can get by undetected. This part follows more along assumptions I haven't gotten far enough in my research to confirm if this will work, but anyways. Since to kill a named character you need to know his name, I suggest a script/trait that will change his name to something appropriate that can be detected through a console command kill character, along with another random chance of death based on Int/Char. As he has been discovered, the benefit to the enemy is no longer viable since they may use him to give false information to the them. Large negative bribery resistance, a trait along the lines of "This man has betrayed his homeland, and is untrustworthy", giving a large influence penalty. For my earlier example about a makedonian going to makedonia, a counter trait that would negate most of the effect, but not all.

Yet more ideas, though simpler, I hope.

I'd suggesting adding a new personality trait, one which is there from the moment you have the character, rather than something that appears as the game plays through. A awareness or catious trait, something along those lines. Whether the man is trusting or paranoid seems as deep a part of personality as selflessness. For this I would suggest a model akin to the ICERating, and maintaining the current benefits and penalties for the two separate traits as they have now.


Even if this is pointless, I still think the colony enabling recruitment with a exp bonus to represent veterans is a good idea, or, if you can't attach recruitable conditions upon it and the MIC, then just have the large colony provide a exp bonus to all troops recruited from that city. Hopefully the large price tag will prevent the player from exploiting it if it goes that route.

[ForVictory]

Make Egypt and the rebels less strong. Egypt is unber wealthy and the rebels given some time all have full stacks of armies in there cities...

And maybe gaining money from plunder if your in enemy territory (or does it do that already?)

[Gazius]

And maybe gaining money from plunder if your in enemy territory (or does it do that already?)

The germans currently receive? recieve? Bah, I can't spell at this hour, something like this already. Just go put a family member in their territory.

[Juvenal]

I think that one of the most significant things that could be done to improve EB is to address the underlying balance problem with RTW campaigns after the player expands their holdings past a critical size.

EB has been very good at making the early campaign interesting and (very) challenging, but once you have defeated your first rival, I think you are pretty much invulnerable.

How many of us just give up at this point and go start another campaign?

There are already mechanisms in place to counter blitzing (Area of recruitment, and the need for extensive building programmes), but steady expansion is still too easy.

We need the possibility of really big rebellions in the mid to late game. I presume that scripting is up to the task of creating rebel armies, but I don't know whether they could be triggered in a realistically random way, or whether they could be relied upon to actually attack the player.

The fear of my empire breaking up would force tortoises like myself to make that final dash for victory rather than picking up my remaining target settlements like a few items of forgotten grocery.

What are your thoughts on late-game balancing? do you think it is an artificial gaming concept or that it is a good fit with history?

PS. Please let me know if something like this already happens - I have only finished a Casse campaign to date, so I don't know if any of the other factions face big challenges near to their victory conditions.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

That's a problem with RTW itself really Juvenal. We try to make all the factions and places and small regions' troops interesting to keep replay ability high. We can't really cause the game to get harder for you as your empire grows. We can just try to make everything else very interesting for you.

[Juvenal]

That's a problem with RTW itself really...
...We can't really cause the game to get harder for you as your empire grows.

I think EB is a truly great mod, and I do understand that the issue is the behaviour of RTW.

Controlling a large empire should be difficult - what were previously external enemies to be conquered are now internal enemies and rivals for power. The bigger the empire, the less of it that can be controlled by those you trust.

How many successfully expanding empires in our time frame did this without major internal challenges?

I am not complaining, or demanding anything here - but I am interested in what people think the end-game should be like.

[blacksnail]

We can't easily script random rebels, but forcing an end-game balance of difficulty in maintaining happiness at a palatable level is something we're looking at.

[ForVictory]

-It suprised me that EB still had the automatic tower, so please mod that to a slower rate of fire in the next mod

-I think syracuse should be greek because when it got attacked it asked for help from greece

-There are too many mercenaries available, so less merc's

-How about when a general exterminates he should get an attribute where he will cause + unrest (cause the ppl dont want him) if he governs a city but when he is on the battlefield he causes fear for the enemies for less morale for them, how about that?

[Lovejoy]

-There are too many mercenaries available, so less merc's

No! Buying mercs is like Chirstmas! :2thumbsup: So many intresting units to choose from.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

-I think syracuse should be greek because when it got attacked it asked for help from greece
Syracusae had recently been left to fend for itself by Pyhrrus (Epirus), who had saved it earlier.

[Orb]

I think the team (forgive me if I'm wrong and this was a thread a long time ago) has stated their positions on the machine-gun towers, in that by increasing the difficulty of storming a city they are *more* realistic.

So, why not do a minimod which reduces fire rates instead and release it to the public - that way you both get your weakened siege/towers and help improve EB for other likeminded consumers?

[PSYCHO V]

I'd like to see the correct Unit UIs on the EB web page. Especially those for the Celtic Factions.

:yes:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We may have to conscript someone new to take all those tga files with alpha'd out backgrounds and turn them into gifs with transparent backgrounds. Sounds like a way to find a new member. :laugh4:

[Gazius]

If its feasible, have you considered branching out mining more?

A prospector [available in many locations; provides a small trade boost (cheap)] > citizen claims [selling the finds to the state/faction, with the final product providing more than the sell price, netting a small profit effect (very cheap? doesn't seem like the faction should have to do anything)] > minor corporation/state owned [works like the current level 1 mines(moderate price, equal to the current level)] > expansion [no benefits change from the last level, this is just preparing the equipment needed along with finding workers and those with the expertise to oversee the project(very expensive, this should be the big hurdle to getting to mines that provide a large payout)] > large mine [providing a large bonus, maybe a slight reduction but generally along the lines of the mines of .80 (relatively expensive, potential scripts)]

Along the lines of scripts tied to the mines, who paid for all the workers? Maybe instead of having a reduced mnai bonus, have a script which subtracts a approrpiate estimate from the treasury. However after a little consideration this may cause a unnecessary strain on the game from the script, so maybe just edit the description to mention that the total gain include workers pay. (Yes, I realize they used a lot of slaves to work the mines, but certainly there was skilled labor overseeing the lot.)

A second script consideration; certainly there were accidents in the mines, what about representation of these? Damage building, and another, direct cost in having to replenish the cost of labor.

[Geoffrey S]

To be honest I've been wondering if there's any point in keeping temple buildings dedicated to specific deities, rather than a complex representing the construction of temples in general. The bonuses tend to be the same, and it seems a bit too much like a gamey leftover from RTW. Or at least, is it possible to limit the first construction of a temple to dedicating an area, which then branches out to possible deities; and would this free up building complex slots? Blacksmiths are also something I consider redundant.

[blacksnail]

Gazius, I have a proposal for a new mine complex in the Backroom. At this point I'm waiting for the final 0.81 build so I can move forward with testing.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, providing different deities does give us a chance to spread some more knowledge, instead of just having a generic complex. I understand the concern, but it also would mean swamping a lot of work we've already got implemented and a system we've got working now just about right for most factions.

[Geoffrey S]

Okay. So I guess it isn't possible to have the various deities branch from one root temple complex, one building slot? Or is that already the case in RTW, since building one temple excludes the other options?

[blacksnail]

Dave, I think he's talking about a similar structure for temples as we have for MICs - the shrine would be the commonality between both, and then from there each would go up four levels. We may be able to gain a few more complexes if compressing them works, but I'm sure that would impact traits, possibly scripts, and maybe buildings.

[Gazius]

Gazius, I have a proposal for a new mine complex in the Backroom. At this point I'm waiting for the final 0.81 build so I can move forward with testing.

Looking forward to seeing it. :2thumbsup:

Has the team ever considered raising the number of ancillaries a character can have, via traits? What kind of retinue does this man have? A person who has low movement points, will for so many turns have a strong bodyguard, adding to personal security and command which should consequently increase the size of his actual bodyguard. A man who has almost all his movement points for a while will probably be governing his city, and thus recieve a retinue which allows him to see further, and, depending on his loyalty, perhaps relying on the version suggested above, he may have a retinue who acts in his favor with a influence or management bonus, both maybe, or against it. Is there any way to influence corruption?

[BozosLiveHere]

Maximum number of ancillaries per general is hardcoded.

[Gazius]

Maximum number of ancillaries per general is hardcoded.

The actual maximum is limited, yes, but I mean representing ancillaries through traits. Certainly there isn't much difference, depending on how its worded, you just won't have the accompanying picture.

[Gazius]

Would it be possible to mark what turn the character won the olympics? Is a person who competes once and fails, or wins, able to enter again? If so, do other traits come from multiple winnings, or many losings?

Also, since in .8/1 Rome has a tendency to get wiped out of Italy by Epirus, would it not be historical to, in the advent of losing Rome, or else Rome itself coming under siege, to spawn a army of soldiers either in the city or nearby? Certainly if Rome had lost Roma to Carthage, the citizens would have taken up arms to force them from their homeland. I don't know if this would be relevant for any other faction, but it makes sense for Rome, I think.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I have a question/suggestion concerning the EB installer.
I have seen many people that are unsure where to direct it. This is compounded by the fact that every version of RTW has a differenct directory. There are some extractor programs that can autodetect certain things (such as registry files) and extract without a target. Is there a way to get some sort of extractor software like that for some of the less computer literate fans. Or is this whole thing impossible since things like that require some sort of prior registry that is not available to EB?

[Barigos]

I heard that EB team would implement more scripted events in the next builds,so maybe we can expect something like "garrison script" that spawns levy armies for faction's homeland cities.But the problem is that we can't destroy those newly created units via script.The only way I think for this case is to spawn family members giving them levies as their bodyguard(it is possible) and after some turns kill them with kill_character script command.So they will die together with their bodyguard'levies:) Minimod?l

[bovi]

About the EB installer, at least on my comp, the location of the installed game is stored in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\The Creative Assembly\Rome - Total War\installPath.

Perhaps we can use this for the default install directory. In my case it's wrong as I've copied the game over and over to accomodate various mods (and versions of EB), but those who have trouble finding where it's installed would probably not have copied it either, so they'd be helped by this.

[Aristophanes]

Suggestions others have made about removing blacksmiths are cogent, at least in the case of so-called civilized factions with standing armies. It is likely that the barracks would contain armories, weaponsmiths, etc...[so bonuses could be applied at higher levels of military structures] Getting rid of the blacksmith would free up building slots for more interesting buildings.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I have a question/suggestion concerning the EB installer.
I have seen many people that are unsure where to direct it. This is compounded by the fact that every version of RTW has a differenct directory. There are some extractor programs that can autodetect certain things (such as registry files) and extract without a target. Is there a way to get some sort of extractor software like that for some of the less computer literate fans. Or is this whole thing impossible since things like that require some sort of prior registry that is not available to EB?

:yes: These forums get exceedingly littered with all sorts of "help EB doesn't work on my PC" threads, which then could be something of the past...

It has one slight disadvantage though: if you have multiple copies (that is back ups) of RTW on your HD but only one of the copies is properly patched it will all end in tears. (Those auto-installers can't detect your up to date patched back ups, they can only detect the properly registered, (that one which shows up in the control panel add/remove programs list), install - that which came from the CD. AFAIK: this registry info refers to the DLL's in your original RTW folder... So that's why.)

Therfore you'd have to have at least one "please specify your destination folder" box - only to make sure that those who have been messing around with back ups can select a different path.

But for those who have not messed around with multiple installs of RTW, it's an excellent solution to some/most of the trouble they run into.

[PantsToucher]

Well, since there are three possible default locations in which the install could be located depending on when one has purchased their copy, it may be easiest to inform people that one of those file paths is the one they should be installing to. That way, even if someone really is computer illiterate, by process of elimination they should eventually get themselves straightened out. Also, those who have multiple copies of mods will know where their install is located, and shouldn't have a problem.

Just a suggestion, but this seems easier than messing around with an autodetect installer.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Suggestions others have made about removing blacksmiths are cogent, at least in the case of so-called civilized factions with standing armies. It is likely that the barracks would contain armories, weaponsmiths, etc...[so bonuses could be applied at higher levels of military structures] Getting rid of the blacksmith would free up building slots for more interesting buildings.
I believe we are looking into doing this.

[Geoffrey S]

:yes: These forums get exceedingly littered with all sorts of "help EB doesn't work on my PC" threads, which then could be something of the past...

It has one slight disadvantage though: if you have multiple copies (that is back ups) of RTW on your HD but only one of the copies is properly patched it will all end in tears. (Those auto-installers can't detect your up to date patched back ups, they can only detect the properly registered, (that one which shows up in the control panel add/remove programs list), install - that which came from the CD. AFAIK: this registry info refers to the DLL's in your original RTW folder... So that's why.)

Therfore you'd have to have at least one "please specify your destination folder" box - only to make sure that those who have been messing around with back ups can select a different path.

But for those who have not messed around with multiple installs of RTW, it's an excellent solution to some/most of the trouble they run into.
Same here. I've got multiple installs for backup and for other mods, so some kind of direction is needed at least. But to be honest, if even a complete Windows n00b like myself can install the mod, I'm surprised anyone who actually takes the effort to read the instructions can mess up the EB installation.