View Full Version : Afghan faces death for being Christian
rory_20_uk
03-20-2006, 21:53
Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4823874.stm)
Hmm, so liberalism isn't quite there yet then.
Should more be done to intervene in a society where we toppled a government and replaced it with one that can still have people killed for their religion?
~:smoking:
Duke Malcolm
03-20-2006, 21:56
Hmm... I wonder what would happen if the Lords of Session sentenced a Muslims to the death sentence for converting from his original faith...
Goofball
03-20-2006, 22:02
"We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him," the judge told the BBC on Monday.
That is simply sublime it its sillyness.
:dizzy2:
LeftEyeNine
03-20-2006, 22:03
"Taleban" are whom were grown, fed and used as tools against Soviet threat over there. So no need to cry over what a screwed system is still over there.
P.S. I know Taleban is not in power any more..At first sight..
Byzantine Prince
03-20-2006, 22:26
*checks official liberal elitist handbook*
Nope, it says there is nothing wrong with this. ~;p
Kagemusha
03-20-2006, 22:57
:shame:
Catiline
03-20-2006, 23:07
at least the Roman's used Christians as scapegoats, or feared them for their social impact.This sort of nonsense is the strongest argument against any sort of god squad going. There's a fine line between fear and stupidity
Reenk Roink
03-20-2006, 23:52
Apostasy laws...Treason laws...
Gah!
Interesting, but no big surprise here.
Papewaio
03-21-2006, 01:49
So an Aid worker is going to get executed for converting to Christianity?
Hmm :wall:
Fight Fire with Fire Speech from the Stereotypical Right Wing Politicians:“I would wholeheartedly applaud a John Wayne style send in the cavalry and wipe out the entire judiciary who rule that the guy gets executed. These guys are just the same as the Taliban and as such should be wiped off the face of the earth. :furious3: "
Liberal Hand Wringing Speech of the Stereotypical Left Wing Politicians:
"I think we have to put their decision within the social political dynamics that exist in Afghanistan. We must understand the terror that has made them make such a harsh decision. A terror that we created when we the west bombed them into the Stone Age. It’s our fault as the bourgeois west that this man is going to be executed. We would hold a candle lit vigil but that has religious overtones that may insult the belief system of the judiciary. :sorry:"
There seem to be periodic stories of this kind (crimes that should not even be crimes being met with the severest punishments) coming out of some Muslim legal systems - whether it is in Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or wherever. Typically, external pressure and internal politics work and the sentences are not carried out.
Afghanistan is very dependent on the West. I can't see a death penalty in this case playing well with George Bush's core vote. I can see Karzai wanting to seem hands-off - which politician wants to be seen opening strong-arming their courts? But if there was an imminent risk of sentence being carried out, I think the US should privately threaten to pull out every last dollar, starting with the Presidential bodyguard.
And force Karzai to weaken his already quite weak rule?
This is truly a nasty case as it can only end good if the more openminded people forcethe court to back down. But we are talking about Afghanistan... So that chance is pretty low.
Originally posted by Kraxis
And force Karzai to weaken his already quite weak rule?
This is truly a nasty case as it can only end good if the more openminded people forcethe court to back down. But we are talking about Afghanistan... So that chance is pretty low.
There is no winning in this situation, its lose lose for the afghani peoples. Its the continued rulings like this that makes me wonder what the term "moderate" means to a middle eastern person. At least its nice to see the inquisition still allive and kicking in somepart of the judiac religions.
Rejecting Islam a crime. Looks like there's not one reporter from a western and American country who wouldnt be a criminal in that part of the world.:oops:
We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him
If not we will kill him....:skull:
There is no winning in this situation, its lose lose for the afghani peoples. Its the continued rulings like this that makes me wonder what the term "moderate" means to a middle eastern person. At least its nice to see the inquisition still allive and kicking in somepart of the judiac religions.
Rejecting Islam a crime. Looks like there's not one reporter from a western and American country who wouldnt be a criminal in that part of the world.:oops:
Just like Europe use to be. I'm glad the Middle East is rapidly progressing
Major Robert Dump
03-21-2006, 05:44
Hopefully diplomats and human rights groups can talk them out of it, but often cases like these are left alone because out of respect for a nations sovereignity. I certainly hope we don't let afghanistan fade into the sunset after it loses its strategic importance, otherwise it will fester and require another war.
rory_20_uk
03-21-2006, 09:49
Off topic I don't think I've seen so many Mods post in such a small space before A truely humbling experience ~;)
Afghanistan is a country whose borders are defined by other countries who want to make it perfectly clear that the mess in the middle isn't their problem.
It's like a marsh: a feculant dump when left alone, but the minute you try to wade in you sink into the morass: all sinks beneath the surface dragging everything down with it; if one disturbs it too much you get covered in mud and there's a bad stink to everything.
Just managed to strongarm that metaphore :thumbsup:
~:smoking:
Byzantine Mercenary
03-21-2006, 09:50
sadly form what ive heard this is far from an unusual event muslims who convert to christianity in britain are at great risk and those that convert in muslims countries are in huge trouble, here is another example of such an event.
http://www.barnabasfund.org/archivenews/article.php?ID_news_items=28
''Just after midnight, early in the morning of 24 April Hridoy Roy was returning home after showing a film version of Luke’s Gospel. As he approached his house seven or eight people attacked him, stabbing him seven times. He died instantly.
Hridoy Roy was a Bangladeshi evangelist and regularly used to put on the film, known as the Jesus Film. He is believed to be the first martyr in Bangladesh in modern times, if not ever; local believers feel that he will not be the last. They are in a state of deep shock, mourning and great fear following this tragic attack.
In Islamic law (Shari’ah) conversion from Islam to another faith (apostasy) is punishable by death. This is a deep seated tradition among Muslims and those who do convert, if not killed, are often subject to beatings and having their possessions and family taken away from them. This is the fundamental reason for the antipathy that most Muslims hold towards those who try to proselytise in their communities. It goes a long way towards explaining why they are sometimes willing to take such draconian measures to make sure that none of their community will be corrupted.''
What? Did anyone think that "Operation Enduring Freedom" meant religious freedom? :dizzy2:
What? Did anyone think that "Operation Enduring Freedom" meant religious freedom? :dizzy2:
Actually, I kinda did. Silly me.
rory_20_uk
03-21-2006, 21:18
Perhaps "enduring theocratic intolerance" didn't fit ont he poster... :dizzy2:
~:smoking:
Actually, I kinda did. Silly me.
Replacing one group of fundamentalist lunatics with another? :dizzy2:
Replacing one group of fundamentalist lunatics with another? :dizzy2:
Well, I had hoped fudamentalist lunatics wouldn't replace the current administration.
Edit: Speaking along these lines, what do you think of your current administration, Dariush?
Well, I had hoped fudamentalist lunatics wouldn't replace the current administration. The current Afghan administration is and always has been religious fundamentalists. They were just slightly less crazy (and more corporative) than the Talibs.
Edit: Speaking along these lines, what do you think of your current administration, Dariush? Which one? Iran or my European hideaway?
Which one? Iran or my European hideaway?
Iran.
Soulforged
03-22-2006, 03:12
Hmm, so liberalism isn't quite there yet then.
In so called liberalist countries there's still laws that punish treason. What varies is what qualifies as treason, but this is not necessarily unreasonable if you consider treason to be a crime and if you also consider Afghanistan to be a country ruled by god. Beyond that, execution is a primitive response against a terrible crime as treason.
EDIT: Of course I'm only making an analogy with "treason", a similar figure.
EDIT: Of course I'm only making an analogy with "treason", a similar figure.
Actually, the Muslim commentators in the UK media are saying it is not an analogy - rather that equating apostasy and treason is at the centre of this particular issue. They say apostasy is not a crime according to the Kuran and the Afghan prosecutors are confusing apostasy with provisions against treason against an Islamic state, which does carry the death penalty under Sharia law.
I think the Restaurateur of Kabul has gotten a little anxious in the wake of the international outcry.
Hamid Karzai intervenes? (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7BB654F1-7D5C-4E7D-B251-28A6E20A461D.htm)
I say all us christians go out and burn down every embassy to every muslim country, then we attack all muslim owned stores and.... *goes berserk* you insulted my belief-system! and I can only respond by destruction and blind hatred!
well anyway, what a sick country.
Devastatin Dave
03-22-2006, 16:28
What makes me happy is that all the "moderate" muslims in the world have stood up against this and are taking to the streets because of this great injustice.... Oh wait a minute, they're too busy rioting and burning cars over cartoons or what ever the "outrage of the minute" is to once again stand up to those that would hijack their "peaceful" religion. :dizzy2:
well anyway, what a sick country. ~:rolleyes:
What a sick Mullah rule.
well anyway, what a sick country.
Country as in singular? Let me advise you to up that to plural.
It is pretty dangerous for converts to return to Iran, Saudi Arabia and Sudan at the very least, and perhaps some areas of Pakistan and Indonesia.
I say all us christians go out and burn down every embassy to every muslim country, then we attack all muslim owned stores and.... *goes berserk* you insulted my belief-system! and I can only respond by destruction and blind hatred!
well anyway, what a sick country.
Could be fun. Our (historically Christian) governments would have to arbitarily impose trade sanctions on random unconnected but Muslim governments.
Byzantine Mercenary
03-22-2006, 23:44
Country as in singular? Let me advise you to up that to plural.
It is pretty dangerous for converts to return to Iran, Saudi Arabia and Sudan at the very least, and perhaps some areas of Pakistan and Indonesia.
converts from Islam are not safe anywhere, there have been incidents in little old britain!
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-23-2006, 00:02
The US ambassador should suggest they find a way to banish him, rather than kill him.
If they do kill him there's nothing to be done, it is their country. You can't just go into any country you don't like the look of, over anf over again. If America can't invade the Roman way they shouldn't bother at all.
If they do kill him there's nothing to be done, it is their country.
But the billions of dollars that the West give them in aid are not necessarily "their's" and stopping them is something that could be done, if the worst comes to the worst.
The US ambassador should suggest they find a way to banish him, rather than kill him.
If they do kill him there's nothing to be done, it is their country. You can't just go into any country you don't like the look of, over anf over again. If America can't invade the Roman way they shouldn't bother at all.
Sure we can. We didn't a topple a government and spend billions to put up with this shit.
Proletariat
03-23-2006, 01:47
Sure we can. We didn't a topple a government and spend billions to put up with this shit.
Sure we did, ghost. We're not giving these guys money because we think they love freedom. It's the enemy of our enemy thing. Not much we can do but say oh well, and this guy might die, but at least the Taliban's gone. Kraxis pretty much nailed this one back on post 12.
:embarassed:
Alexanderofmacedon
03-23-2006, 04:07
It's saddening, but Muslims have been slaughtering Hindus for decades...
I know there are retaliations in the other direction, but it's nowhere near the casualties Muslims in India inflict on Hindus
I bit random, but it reminded me...
Alexanderofmacedon
03-23-2006, 04:17
The US ambassador should suggest they find a way to banish him, rather than kill him.
If they do kill him there's nothing to be done, it is their country. You can't just go into any country you don't like the look of, over anf over again. If America can't invade the Roman way they shouldn't bother at all.
You know I've often wondered about that. Maybe the idea of a "ruthless Roman" is awsome to me...:embarassed:
Alexanderofmacedon
03-23-2006, 04:19
Country as in singular? Let me advise you to up that to plural.
It is pretty dangerous for converts to return to Iran, Saudi Arabia and Sudan at the very least, and perhaps some areas of Pakistan and Indonesia.
It doesn't make it sick. Only different culturally. We do "sick" things in their opinion...
Reenk Roink
03-23-2006, 04:38
It's saddening, but Muslims have been slaughtering Hindus for decades...
I know there are retaliations in the other direction, but it's nowhere near the casualties Muslims in India inflict on Hindus
I bit random, but it reminded me...
I always thought there was more to it than that:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,213670,00.html
The violence between India and Pakistan (hindu vs muslim) over mainly Kashmir has been felt on both sides. It would be a gross exaggeration to say that one side is doing most of the killing.
Alexanderofmacedon
03-23-2006, 04:55
I'm talking about the war for Kashmir. I'm talking about the fact that muslims try to convert Hindus. When the hindus do not convert they murder them. It does not go the other way because you cannot be converted to Hinduism. You have to be born into it...
Byzantine Mercenary
03-23-2006, 14:56
The US ambassador should suggest they find a way to banish him, rather than kill him.
If they do kill him there's nothing to be done, it is their country. You can't just go into any country you don't like the look of, over anf over again. If America can't invade the Roman way they shouldn't bother at all.
just the same was said of hitlers persecution of the jews was it not?
this is an innocent man being killed, one of many that have died this way, this is serious, if we don't stand up for people like this there will be no one to stand up for us when they come for us (when i say they i do not mean muslims but any group that decides to kill innocents)
Killing someone because of their religion is not a different cultural thing at all. Used to happen all the time in the west until worryingly recently. It's a messed up barbaric thing that medieaval societies do.
Byzantine Mercenary
03-23-2006, 23:08
Killing someone because of their religion is not a different cultural thing at all. Used to happen all the time in the west until worryingly recently. It's a messed up barbaric thing that medieaval societies do.
yep :bow:
Proletariat
03-24-2006, 04:08
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/afghan.christian.ap/
Top Muslim clerics: Convert must die
"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.
A frigging moderate?
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/afghan.christian.ap/
Top Muslim clerics: Convert must die
A frigging moderate?
Oh boy, I can't wait to see a liberal one. They must be super radical! :dizzy2:
Devastatin Dave
03-24-2006, 17:37
A frigging moderate?
Yes, an honest moderate that understands the true meaning and history of his faith. Will be interesting to see how the "religion of peace" apologists frame this one.
Geoffrey S
03-24-2006, 20:39
So one intolerant theocracy has been exchanged for another one, albeit one that cooperates with the war on terror?
Either Karzai ends up in a weakened position or the credibility of the coalition bringing freedom to Afghanistan goes down a notch. Not a pretty situation by any means.
A frigging moderate?
Echoed.
Reenk Roink
03-24-2006, 20:51
...understands the true meaning and history of his faith...
If you are going to paint all muslims with that brush you might as well also do it to Christianity with its historical apostasy laws (heck, most religions) and to my Puritan ancestors...
A frigging moderate?
Abdul Raoulf? :inquisitive:
I think they mean Mawlavi Abdul Rauf. But criticizing the Talibs, who were complete and utter screwballs, does not make one a moderate.
To be fair to the man, he lives in a rough, medieval part of the world and would probably be dead now if he was a true moderate.
Byzantine Mercenary
03-28-2006, 10:56
problem solved?
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/28/christian.convert/index.html
KABUL, Afghanistan (CNN) -- An Afghan man threatened with the death penalty for converting to Christianity has been released from prison, senior Western diplomats said Tuesday. His whereabouts were not immediately known.
Abdul Rahman had been held by Afghan authorities for his conversion from Islam to Christianity, punishable by death in Afghanistan, which follows Islamic law. Many Muslim clerics in the country called for his death, and said even if he were freed his life would be in danger.
Ahead of his release, Rahman requested asylum in a Western country, according to the United Nations. He has lived in Europe at times.
"Mr. Abdul Rahman has asked for asylum outside Afghanistan," a statement from the office of U.N. Special Representative to Afghanistan said Monday. "We expect that this will be provided by one of the countries interested in a peaceful solution to this case."
Local clerics had written to President Hamid Karzai, asking him to prevent Western nations from interfering with their religious practices and customs.
About 1,000 people demonstrated in Mazar-e-Sharif Monday, chanting "Death to America" and "Death to George Bush." (Full story)
Western nations, which have supported the new Afghan government monetarily, have been leaning on the government to free Rahman.
The Afghan Cabinet met on the matter Saturday, but results of that meeting were unknown.
Religious leaders have been meeting with Cabinet officials and with Karzai. Privately, people close to the government have said Karzai wanted to take personal charge of the issue.
U.S. troops overthrew Afghanistan's ruling Taliban, which had harbored the al Qaeda terrorist network, after al Qaeda's Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington. U.S. troops are still battling Taliban and al Qaeda remnants in parts of the country, which President Bush frequently touts as a success in the U.S.-led battle against terrorism.
Rahman, 41, reportedly converted 16 years ago while he was a medical aid worker for an international non-governmental organization. The information recently came to light during a civil case.
The case reflects a gulf between Afghanistan's conservative and clerical judiciary and the fledgling Western-backed democracy led by Karzai.
The judge in charge of the case is adamant that there can be no government involvement.
The U.S. Embassy in Kabul is adamant as well. The U.S. government and other Western nations basically hold the purse strings for Afghanistan, which needs billions in reconstruction money every year.
"We have a profound commitment to a person's fundamental freedom to choose how he or she worships and we must be true to that commitment," the embassy said in a statement. (Watch how the case of the 'reluctant martyr' is testing Afghanistan -- 2:56)
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told CNN Sunday: "We've been very clear with the Afghan government that it has to understand the vital importance of religious freedom to democracy."
Lets see if he lives out the next few months before calling the case solved.
Byzantine Mercenary
03-28-2006, 11:50
Lets see if he lives out the next few months before calling the case solved.
of course, he is not even safe in western nations, in fact with his level of evposure, there are not many places he would be safe
rory_20_uk
03-29-2006, 13:08
Yes, Christians were as bad as those in Afghanastan are now. They are Shia law is based from teachings 1,000 years ago or thereabouts. We in the UK are not using the Magna Carta as though it was written yesterday. It is a museum where it belongs as a quaint relic.
The situation where he is declared medically ill is paper over the cracks. If the country wishes to be a barbaric backwater then there are better things to spend our money on that giving it as aid to them.
~:smoking:
Kralizec
03-29-2006, 15:13
He was acquited because of lack of evidence, actually.
Byzantine Mercenary
03-29-2006, 15:16
what, lack of evidence that he was a cristian?
kataphraktoi
03-29-2006, 15:23
Freedom is a right or a privilege nowadays?
Byzantine Mercenary
03-29-2006, 15:34
it has always been a privalidge
Kralizec
03-29-2006, 15:36
what, lack of evidence that he was a cristian?
nevermind, I had my facts mixed up. What happened was that the case was referred back to the prosecutor because of legal flaws.
rory_20_uk
03-29-2006, 21:31
Freedom has always been a privilege. The bars of our prisons are now so entrenched in our minds that we barely notice them any more. But better that than anarchy.
~:smoking:
Byzantine Mercenary
03-30-2006, 10:37
of course
although im sure soulforged would dissagree!
Major Robert Dump
03-30-2006, 10:59
Actually, his lawyers claimed he was a tard.
Geoffrey S
03-30-2006, 11:48
Yup. Set free not because it's a ridiculous thing to prosecute a man for, but because they say he's retarded and didn't know what he was doing. How's that for making the Afghan legal system look ridiculous? Such a paper-thin excuse that anyone can see through barely saves face outside the country, and barely inside either. They can't get away with it a second time, and I'd be surprised if another case doesn't pop up eventually.
At least Afghanistan isn't the terrorist stomping ground it was, but the basic religious extremism of the country is certainly not gone.
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