Accurate city maps [Archive]

GodEmperorLeto

03-22-2006, 05:35

I was just wondering if it would be possible to design cities to look like their historical counterparts. I wouldn't suggest this be done with all cities, but rather with some of the major ones, like Carthage, Rome, Syracuse, Athens, Tarantum, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Corinth, and so on.

I thought of this because I was reading about the fortress in the harbor of Taranto that's been there almost since the Spartan colonists settled there, and I was wondering what it would be like to assault it in game. Some cities could be more difficult to storm than others. I think it would make the game even more interesting than it already is.

khelvan

03-22-2006, 05:40

Absolutely, and if someone is very good with 3DSMax and has a lot of time, we could direct that person to make historical city plans.

Unfortunately we don't have anyone on our team who we can put on this for the amount of time necessary.

nikolai1962

03-22-2006, 06:57

I read a thread once where a guy was making Rome. He'd got as far as modelling the seven hills and the big citadel. Looked great. Must take a mountain of time to do though.

We all need someone

03-23-2006, 01:34

And that's probably only for Rome at one period. The amount of time involved is astronimical, when you think of the time span and the rate of growth/change for the various cities.

I agree that it's definitely down on the list for things to do, what with reinforcements still being broken and all.

GodEmperorLeto

03-23-2006, 04:23

I'd be down for it...

but my computer probably won't handle the program required for mapping. I expected Rome to have a mapping tool like Medieval did. I made pretty decent maps of a few castles, and even a couple of cities (Constantinople, London, and Orleans for example).

That, and I'm knee deep into my MA thesis. So my time is at a minimal for now.

Christianus

03-23-2006, 14:32

Hi!
This guy might do it. You maybe just would need to ask him.
He wrote about making Carthage over at the RTR forum:

http://forums.rometotalrealism.org/index.php?showtopic=17516

Avicenna

03-23-2006, 15:31

Sparta would be the special one. Four villages (or was it five?) joined together with a few farms and taverns.

Teleklos Archelaou

03-23-2006, 18:39

Moros

03-23-2006, 21:13

We have had contact with that guy and we had plans for making this but we just don't have the man power and it would be one hell of a job. So the plan died since it was just almost impossible to realise with.

Christianus

03-24-2006, 10:07

Yes, Rome wasn`t built in a day, EB either:)

oudysseos

03-24-2006, 21:04

There might be a more attainable solution: many Greek cities were similar in their basic features and in particular they often featured an acropolis, so you could develop a couple of basic city plans that would more accurately represent different types of cities without involving all the work of modelling each famous city from 272 BC. Thus you could have model 1, the flat grid, and model 2, the acropolis city. Maybe down the line we could have a city with a river through it (and lovely defensible bridges). They won't be specifically historically accurate but would be loads better than the one-size-fits all that we have now. Barbarian villages already feature a hill, so I know that cities don't always have to be flat. I'd be more than happy with something in this direction, even if the Acrocorinth isn't accurately modelled.

Teleklos Archelaou

03-24-2006, 22:02

pezhetairoi

03-25-2006, 00:58

Say, could you bring that Carthage guy over here and ask him if he could show us some of his work for carthage? I would really, personally, love to see his work, and if it could be applied to the city plans in the game en masse, I would be most glad.

oudysseos

03-26-2006, 08:06

Yeah, I'd be happy with just one set of more realistic greek city plans with a small acropolis. One set of more realistic steppe city plans with more spacing. One set of more realistic barb plans with oppida. Etc. But it takes people with some serious desire and ability to do it, and certain skills that we have in short supply.

I'd say don't worry about it. Get EB to 1.0 with the material you already have planned and then start taking suggestions for new embellishments. I know I'm not going to make any more suggestions for new material (and I've got a great one) until you guys have had a chance to get your primary workload done. I'd urge others to do the same and show some restraint in posting. The forum is getting messy, but I don't expect the EB team to have to clean it up.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

03-26-2006, 19:01

I think its a really great idea, but crush all the bugs first.

nikolai1962

03-29-2006, 03:04

Also having a fully working and generally uber mod with a lot of historical realism might very well inspire some of the people who'd know how to make these city models.

Kull

03-29-2006, 09:05

Here's a few interesting threads on the subject (Rome definitely wasn't built in a day):

1) Building the Editor (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26436&page=1&pp=20&highlight=rome+city)

2) The City Editor (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34825)

3) Building Rome (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24184)

Avicenna

03-30-2006, 03:33

What about Sparta? Could you limit how advanced it could be? In real life it was just four villages or perhaps five, with a few messes for the men to live in.

Teleklos Archelaou

03-30-2006, 03:55

In theory, yes. In practice, as said above, we just don't have the people to do it at this point.

QwertyMIDX

03-30-2006, 04:28

Also, Hellenistic Sparta was very different from Classical.

nikolai1962

03-30-2006, 05:57

Christianus

03-30-2006, 19:30

How was Sparta different in classical times? Sources? Just curious:)

Teleklos Archelaou

03-30-2006, 19:35

Well, Hellenistic sparta did have a pallisade around the acropolis - that's one big difference.

QwertyMIDX

03-31-2006, 01:57

There was a pretty big wall there when the Romans went to fight Nabis.

Christianus

03-31-2006, 15:53

So who writes about this of the classical authors?

Thanky you for the info by the way:)

QwertyMIDX

03-31-2006, 17:34

Both Polybius and Livy talk about Sparta under the early 2nd century tyrants, Polybius is fragmentary though so unfortunately (for its reliability) Livy has the more complete narrative.

shifty157

04-02-2006, 05:19

I would really love for someone to make a few yurts for us and lay out three levels of city plans for steppe factions. Space them out maybe, no city walls, that sort of thing. That would be able to be used over and over again in steppe settlements.

Hello. Ive been looking into settlement plans recently. I would like to offer my services in this regard. I can model the new buildings that would be needed and work to create the towns. The only problem is that i would need someone else to texture the buildings. I would also require that a concept of the town be drawn for me to create from. It can be as simple as some squares on a map although new buildings that i must model would need actual drawings.

You can PM me if you want to take me up on my offer.

- shifty

GodEmperorLeto

04-02-2006, 06:36

Hello. Ive been looking into settlement plans recently. I would like to offer my services in this regard. I can model the new buildings that would be needed and work to create the towns. The only problem is that i would need someone else to texture the buildings. I would also require that a concept of the town be drawn for me to create from. It can be as simple as some squares on a map although new buildings that i must model would need actual drawings.

You can PM me if you want to take me up on my offer.

- shifty

1) If you are serious, you are a god.
2) Look up Peter Connelly's The Ancient City and Greece and Rome at War for some city plans.

If I can get the opportunity, I'll see if I can scan some of the maps for you. You can probably also Google some of the plans for these cities yourself, too.

I figure you probably won't be able to do much by yourself, but I'm always keeping eyes and ears out for anyone whom I can direct to EB to help things out. Unfortunately I haven't the time or resources/talent to help out effectively without really just getting in everybody's way, but I'd like to do whatever I can, and if pointing people in certain directions and helping others find ways to do things, well, then I guess I've done a small bit in giving back to EB.

QwertyMIDX

04-02-2006, 07:42

I have to talk to the rest of the EB team before I say anything definative, but as an individual I have to agree with Leto's comment number 1 on this.

shifty157

04-02-2006, 15:00

I dont my way around this stuff perfectly yet so i figured that i should start with something simple like the steppe villages and build up my skill and knowledge before looking into recreating some major city.

The sooner you can get back to me with something to work with, the sooner i can get started.

Teleklos Archelaou

04-02-2006, 17:33

I've no idea where we could find something like plans for steppe villages, but if you'd like to try some of those as being simpler at first, the regular houses might be replaced by things like the yurts I mentioned. I would recommend taking a look at this absolutely amazing photo gallery here: http://www.reportages-pictures.com/Mongolia.htm

Some galleries in it are better than others, but many are superb and they can give you some ideas. I'll get our steppe guys to post any ideas they might have here for you.

Angadil

04-02-2006, 20:25

Hi, that site is indeed very good. I will add a few more images on the general disposition nonetheless and such, nonetheless.
https://img449.imageshack.us/img449/5083/nomadcamp1kx.th.jpg (https://img449.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nomadcamp1kx.jpg)https://img449.imageshack.us/img449/6089/nomadcamp24sq.th.jpg (https://img449.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nomadcamp24sq.jpg)https://img117.imageshack.us/img117/1112/kassaitv00036pz.th.jpg (https://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kassaitv00036pz.jpg)

And now some suggestions/requests. I will sort of go wild with them, I warn you. You just trim them down to what you find reasonable...

It seems that in the period in question our nomads used tents set on the ground, but also, perhaps even more commonly, tents mounted directly on top of wagons pulled by one up to four pairs of oxen (depending on tent size). It would be, very, very nice if you could mix in the camp the fixed and "mobile" tents and more than one size of either. Below there's a toy model of one of the mobile tents.
https://img457.imageshack.us/img457/7237/wagon16tv.th.jpg (https://img457.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wagon16tv.jpg)
Of course the proportions are badly distorted in that model. Basically, the frame seen in the back of the wagon, would support a smallish tent, otherwise similar to the fixed ones. For the overall size of the thing, think something roughly like the wagons in westerns. The wagon's body wuld be made of wickerwork, if that sort of information is needed...

Now, in our period there seems to have been slightly different tents designs in use in different areas of the steppe. In the eastern portions the flat-topped kind you'd see in most pictures would have been prevalent, but in the west there is evidence for something more "conical" as shown in the pic below. btw, the "thin line" is a long cavalry lance leaning on the tent. It would be a very nice detail to put some of those...
https://img325.imageshack.us/img325/4303/sarmatosakatent23de.th.jpg (https://img325.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sarmatosakatent23de.jpg)
I don't know if it is possible to have an "eastern" and "western" nomad village. That would be terrific. If not, then I'd suggest mixing the two tent designs.

Thank you.

khelvan

04-02-2006, 20:40

We have at least one member (eadingas) who would be absolutely ecstatic to work with you, giving you detailed information about city plans for you to implement.

Again, if you have the skill and desire to do this, it is definitely something that we lack and would make a very real difference to our team.

shifty157

04-02-2006, 22:15

Angadil-

The first picture you posted is very unclear. It looks like a stable/holding pen for live stock. Stone wall.

Im sorry but im not really sure what youre describing with your mobile tent and the toy doesnt help at all. If you could draw a quick sketch that would be very much better.

To my knowledge of settlement plans, each culture can have only one settlement plan for each level of city. This is a limitation you should keep in mind. For each plan i make, i must remove a vanilla plan. Remember that cultures span across factions which could lead to potentially unwanted results depending on which factions you have assigned to each culture.

My other limitation is that because we cannot yet edit the .bpi files for buildings we cannot create collision data for new buildings. This means i need to use already existing collision data from stock buildings. This may or may not limit me in the way of modelling.

For a map of the settlement i dont want an actual historical map. I just want a quick sketch of how you would like the settlement to be laid out.

Teleklos Archelaou

04-02-2006, 23:10

The nice thing is that we will have a totally separate culture for a nomadic steppe faction - so you don't have to worry about messing up another culture's buildings or town layouts.

There should be a lot of spacing in these - as much as possible without causing any problems. I don't know if that is achieved with really really wide paths through the middle of the settlement or by having the buildings just really far apart, but we need lots of room for horse movement and no real places where someone could set up traps in narrow streets. We really just need three levels of towns for this culture, though maybe we could reserve the fourth level for some regular settlement buildings to be added for a certain type of population. I'd suggest keeping levels 1, 2, and 3 very spread out and with huge paths to the middle of the town.

We can also reduce the number of buildings overall for this culture type - as there are not as many people in each town. So cutting down on the number of structures is fine. If a layout is required, I've taken a large town layout for the eastern vanilla culture, and put down more roads on top of the current ones (blue), and even widened some of them (purple). So big roads are important, and many. And the houses being spread out (black dots?) are fine. Even like this, it's too cramped, but this at least expresses some of the changes we would like to make I think.
https://img460.imageshack.us/img460/5808/layoutsteppe19ig.th.jpg (https://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=layoutsteppe19ig.jpg)

edit: For reference, so I don't need to collect these images again, here are some of modern day nomadic layout of yurts in some nomadic communities:

http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20024%20Orkhon%20valley/ppages/ppage38.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R00074%20mongolia%20in%20the%20steppe/ppages/ppage33.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R00074%20mongolia%20in%20the%20steppe/ppages/ppage74.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R00074%20mongolia%20in%20the%20steppe/ppages/ppage75.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/paysage%20de%20yourtes/ppages/ppage14.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20586b/ppages/ppage15.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20586b/ppages/ppage2.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R00072%20mongolia%20in%20Winter/ppages/ppage3.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R00072%20mongolia%20in%20Winter/ppages/ppage44.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20577%20huvsgul/ppages/ppage51.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20577%20huvsgul/ppages/ppage72.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20577%20huvsgul/ppages/ppage103.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20586%20Randonee/ppages/ppage1.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20586%20Randonee/ppages/ppage29.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20584%20Polo%20,%20a%20children%20game%20in%20Mongolia%20R20584/ppages/ppage34.htm
http://www.reportages-pictures.com/MONGOLIA/R20582%20summer%20in%20Mongolia/ppages/ppage3.htm
(last one more a pastoralism settlement)

Angadil

04-03-2006, 00:08

Angadil-

The first picture you posted is very unclear. It looks like a stable/holding pen for live stock. Stone wall.

Well, that's what it is. What I was trying to show is that a few tents tend to be clustered around a holding pen and that a whole village is formed by aggregating several of this basic subunit. I hope this may be clearer in the pic below.
https://img333.imageshack.us/img333/5559/nomadcamp31jt.th.jpg (https://img333.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nomadcamp31jt.jpg)

Im sorry but im not really sure what youre describing with your mobile tent and the toy doesnt help at all. If you could draw a quick sketch that would be very much better.
I'm totally helpless when it comes to drawing, sorry... But it be something roughly like this:
https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7483/sarmcamp6zd.th.jpg (https://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sarmcamp6zd.jpg)
Of course the tent itself n would not be like that, but quite similar to the "non-wagon" ones. I hope this other pic also helps me to explain.
https://img333.imageshack.us/img333/6053/mobiletent8pb.th.jpg (https://img333.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mobiletent8pb.jpg)
Of course, this is a monster, we'd be speaking of something 1-2 pairs of oxen would pull. I hope that now it will be easier to see what the toy represents? It's not that different from a wagon from a western movie with a tent in its rear half.

Hope this helps?

shifty157

04-03-2006, 02:05

A quick yurt i put up in the game. As you can see i am not a very good skinner. Regardless. Tomorrow ill start laying out the actual settlement consisting mostly of these yurts for now. Ill model the other type of yurt as well. And ill take a stab at the wagon-yurt at some point. But this all i managed to do today.

https://img157.imageshack.us/img157/9796/yurt019gj.jpg

nikolai1962

04-03-2006, 02:10

I think a "yay!" is called for :2thumbsup:

Teleklos Archelaou

04-03-2006, 02:11

shifty - that is already very sweet! Seriously. If we can get that and a few other random things you saw from around the camp, easy stuff only though - nothing too intricate - we can make a huge difference in the believability of the surroundings for these factions.

The sweetest thing is that they are so simple. These yurts aren't that complex, their temples are just mounds really with a stone pillar or two or some rocks arranged on them, maybe a few fences - or low stone walls which already can be found in other parts of the game. These sort of things would make all the difference in the world. Thanks again for helping on this!!

tk-421

04-03-2006, 02:18

That's really cool. I am glad the EB team has found someone to do this for them. After the new steppe villages are complete will you work on other buildings?

Angadil

04-03-2006, 02:22

This is excellent, IMO.:2thumbsup: And if the current straw-roof structure was substituted by some sort of holding pen for livestock, I think it would be even better.

Thank you, shifty!

QwertyMIDX

04-03-2006, 02:57

Very nice work Shifty, you have my thanks as well.

shifty157

04-03-2006, 03:04

Thank you everyone. But ive barely even scratched the surface. Ill be cheering with you when ive finished up the first settlement.

After the new steppe villages are complete will you work on other buildings?

I probably will. I figured this would be a perfect place to start because it isnt too difficult and i can learn my way around the different tools and files. But the real reason that i got into settlement editting was because i wanted to see Athens with an Acropolis . . .

But thats a ways off. For now ill stick with my yurts. (Yurt is my new favorite word by the way.)

paullus

04-03-2006, 04:27

You should be eating mongolian bbq to compliment the yurts! Delicious stuff, and occasionally connected with yurts (in popular imagination, at least, though I doubt there's any real connection). besides, I'm POSITIVE that's what the mobile yurts were designed for: mobile mongolian bbq. mmm!

Spendios

04-03-2006, 19:53

Very nice work on the yurts ! I hope to see them in the mod soon !

shifty157

04-03-2006, 23:36

Completely redone skin and model. I like it much better now.

This is a flattop yurt. All yurts have a large hole in the center of the roof which is a side effect of the way they are constructed although the hole is useful for light and ventilations etc. This particular version has an animal hide tarp tied over the hole perhaps to protect against rain. Im planning a yurt without the tarp as well as a yurt with the more conical roof. There will also be bigger prettier ones for the more important people.
https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/122/yurt013ji.jpg

Angadil

04-04-2006, 00:12

Very nice.:2thumbsup:

GMT

04-04-2006, 00:26

Awesome! :2thumbsup: ~:thumb:

The_White_Knight

04-04-2006, 14:52

Wow indeed! :2thumbsup: I'm anxious to see more and dying to play with your work!

nemesisvsbrad

04-05-2006, 05:54

To shifty.

I am from Mongolia. During summer breaks I lived in those yurts if you call that. In Mongolia people move from one place to another every month or two looking for a better pasture. And winter seasons they move to next to a higher ground to prevent northern cold wind. the yurt is made of timber and cottons, there's no metal at all. Wall is made of extentable woods that can be bent like this
/\/\/\/\/\/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

to

---------------------------
---------------------------
---------------------------

that. THese walls are called "hana"

These walls create a circle connected by a door. On top of these wall you have about 108 pikes that create a conus. These pikes, we call them "uni", connected to perfect circle semiglobe, we call it "toono".

-
/ \
/ \

After connecting them by cables or hooks, we cover it with heavy duty water proof material (it's called "esgii") and the yurt is complete. The whole procedure takes about 20 minutes. But in western Mongolia you have bigger yurts compared to eastern mongolian design. Because western Mongolians use at least 5 walls (hana) while easterns use 3 to 5 walls (hana). Mongolians prefer private space so much that you will not see the next yurt about 15 miles or more. In some remote areas you can't meet anyone for 2 days if you travel. People used to it and don't think it's far away. Unprepared and new truck drivers sometimes die during winter seasons. every year lot of people get lost and die in desert area, the south of Mongolia.

The yurt setup is pretty simple. Some poor families don't have floor just plain earth. Some families can afford wooden floor and it's expensive. From now on I am gonna call yurt as "ger" like we do. Inside "ger", there's fire place right at the center. Western part of the fireplace belongs to Male members and east part is female's part. Even when they eat they don't cross each others territory. North part where they place their highly praised items like portrait of a general or Buddha or Genggis Khan or some important figure they worship. To Mongols Genggis is not mere a mortal. They think he was sent by god to punish the southern evil force and unite warring clans under one flag to fight their common enemies, the city people. Those glorious days are long gone and still some hardcore Genggis worshippers can be found.

If there's any need of Nomad culture issues I could contribute some information since I was born and raised in that.

nemesisvsbrad

04-05-2006, 06:16

The top of "ger" is not completely covered and only half during day times. Northern forest people have very ancient type of "ger". These northern people called "reindeer people" and they just find some comfortable dry place and connect pikes, "uni", and cover it with animal skin or whatever. We call it "urts" and urts is not comfortabe to stay. The urts has no ventilation access because they put stone or heavy stuff on the edge of the animal skin to prevent any heat loss. But you can build one under 2 minutes. Some of these reindeer people live in Siberia, Russia. Even some in Alaska, close to northern pole with bears. I dont like urts, ger is much more comfortable in any way.

Angadil

04-05-2006, 08:40

Thank you, nemesisvsbrad. Insight from someone with first hand experience is always interesting.

The top of "ger" is not completely covered and only half during day times.
So, does that mean the animal hide tarp on top of the latest ger version (happy to switch to "ger") and the side poles stretching it would not be adequate?

Geoffrey S

04-05-2006, 09:24

:2thumbsup:
Best of luck, it's already looking promising!

About the .bpi files, didn't the Zhan Guo team manage to do something with that? At the very least they created ramps up to walls for troops to move on.

shifty157

04-05-2006, 20:33

About the .bpi files, didn't the Zhan Guo team manage to do something with that? At the very least they created ramps up to walls for troops to move on.

Indeed the Zhan Guo team did create an editor to edit the .bpi files quite some time ago. They have yet to release it or any of their other knowledge to the general community even though they promised to do so. This isnt so big a deal for me yet though because i can generaly find an exisitng .bpi file with the dimensions that i need.

nemesisvsbrad
Thank you very much. Some actual information is very useful as all i have to work with are some pictures. I saw the ger with the tarp over it in a picture and although (like you said) i figured this wouldnt normally be the case i felt that it was reasonable to assume that these tarps would be used when it rained or snowed to keep the inside dry. The tarp is also a simple way to create more visual variety among the various ger so that they dont all look exactly the same.

Your information is great and i appreciate it very much. If you ever have any more information i would always be happy to hear it. If you took any pictures during your times living in a ger then i would be happy if you could send those to me.

On a more general note. Ive hit a busy point in my schedule so for the next few weeks things will slow down a bit but after that i should be able to put time in on a daily basis.

Angadil

04-05-2006, 22:48

[QUOTE=shifty157On a more general note. Ive hit a busy point in my schedule so for the next few weeks things will slow down a bit but after that i should be able to put time in on a daily basis.[/QUOTE]
You'll be missed! We all think that this is a really promising project and what you have produced so far is certainly excellent. Of course, RL takes precedence. Thank you and we'll be waiting.

shifty157

04-05-2006, 23:14

Well i wont be gone completely. I should check the forums regularly and ill find some time to mod.

Anyway. Im having a problem. Whenever i save a new texture the alpha map will not show up in game. The .dds settings are correct as i never change them. When i check the skin using the .dds thumbnail viewer the alphamaps are applied making the correct selections clear so i assume photoshop is saving the file correctly. When i get in game however the alpha maps are not applied but only the ones for textures which i just editted and saved. Older textures are still displayed correctly. Something happened between yesterday and today and im not sure what.

nemesisvsbrad

04-06-2006, 03:37

I am glad that shifty has accepted my offer to help on this nomad culture issue. I will try to explain following images as much as I can.

https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/9614/wallssmall4vi.th.jpg (https://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wallssmall4vi.jpg)

it's the original hana before it's been extended, and then

https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7152/wallsexpanded5zw.th.jpg (https://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wallsexpanded5zw.jpg)

test

nemesisvsbrad

04-06-2006, 03:53

https://img151.imageshack.us/img151/3541/buildingger2cx.th.jpg (https://img151.imageshack.us/my.php?image=buildingger2cx.jpg)

After you connect 4 to 5 hana's together to create a circle you connect the top with uni's like that. The other ends of the uni's connected to "TOONO" which is a perfect circle.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4193/afganger7yr.th.jpg (https://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=afganger7yr.jpg)

Here you see a part of afgan ger.

https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3441/kirgizgerinside6ke.th.jpg (https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kirgizgerinside6ke.jpg)

This is a decoration inside a kirgiz ger.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7382/aj2235yp.th.jpg (https://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aj2235yp.jpg)

This is the worship area of a ger. Notice the uni's on top part. Dont forget to see the carpet depicting Mongol army standing front of a defeated chinese city hall. Certainly this family has some serious religious members i bet.

https://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9527/znoo2ty.th.jpg (https://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=znoo2ty.jpg)

A ger from outside.

https://img413.imageshack.us/img413/9403/prev4413737qk.th.jpg (https://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prev4413737qk.jpg)

some females drinking tea, but see that uni's

more to come ...

nemesisvsbrad

04-06-2006, 04:12

More pics

https://img332.imageshack.us/img332/1037/uni4hu.th.jpg (https://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=uni4hu.jpg)

Some monks, uni's look better in this pic

https://img332.imageshack.us/img332/5593/prev4317114ja.th.jpg (https://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prev4317114ja.jpg)

Some womenfolks after milking mares.

https://img332.imageshack.us/img332/4925/aj736yf.th.jpg (https://img332.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aj736yf.jpg)

a northern barbarian woman taking care of some businesses, see behind her a ger next to a small river. I think it's dangerious to build ger over there. In case of heavy rain, the river could cause some harm.

https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/427/aj2190ag.th.jpg (https://img336.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aj2190ag.jpg)

You see here a more modernized type of ger. It has concrete base so it longer a ger anyway. somehousewives socializing too.

https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/4167/186985cx.th.jpg (https://img336.imageshack.us/my.php?image=186985cx.jpg)

A ger in the middle of nowhere, a true barbarian nomad family.

https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/7957/2070jq.th.jpg (https://img336.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2070jq.jpg)

Double rainbow. It has no photoshop effects, no editing whatsoever.

https://img336.imageshack.us/img336/9606/aj119oe.th.jpg (https://img336.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aj119oe.jpg)

A barbarian girl. She has no belt, so you know that she is a single.

https://img319.imageshack.us/img319/4030/prev2116677py.th.jpg (https://img319.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prev2116677py.jpg)

some northern barbarians having conversation, the uni's here are not decorated so I guess this family is more likely a below middle class.

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9904/mopiton1wi.th.jpg (https://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mopiton1wi.jpg)

A barbarian couple taking ride .

I'll post some more pics

nemesisvsbrad

04-06-2006, 04:24

These images from a russian site but I forgot from exactly where.

https://img125.imageshack.us/img125/3625/pic23vb.th.jpg (https://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic23vb.jpg)

a pitched battle

https://img125.imageshack.us/img125/3533/pic3abig6wp.th.jpg (https://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic3abig6wp.jpg)

horsemen

https://img125.imageshack.us/img125/189/pic4big1aq.th.jpg (https://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic4big1aq.jpg)

An anti-cavalry sprearman.

https://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9310/pic5big2mb.th.jpg (https://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic5big2mb.jpg)

A late period musket team

Kull

04-06-2006, 04:28

Thanks for sharing those pix, brad. And that pretty much cinches it. I'm going.

shifty157

04-06-2006, 21:26

I having some major problems with saving textures. I have no idea what could be wrong. I created a new thread in the "modding questions" forum. If anyone knows anything about this i could really use some help. This problem is really setting back my progress.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=63287

Again thank you nemesisvsbrad. Any information is a big help.

Angadil

04-06-2006, 22:07

I'm awfully sorry to hear, Shifty. Wish I could be of some help, but I am totally useless when it comes to graphics...
Good luck

shifty157

04-10-2006, 02:09

Well ive still been working along. Finding time when i can. Despite my textures not having an alpha channel.

I dont plan on posting any more pictures until im done with the first settlement level. Itll be more impressive to see it all at once i figure.

QwertyMIDX

04-10-2006, 02:32

Teleklos Archelaou

04-10-2006, 02:53

Yeah, we're doing great on some areas, better than great even, but in others like this we've got almost nothing going. But I just had the same problem you had and I fiddled around with it a bit and got it to work. I dunno what the answer is really though. I posted on the thread you asked the question in. Thanks again for all of this shifty!!

shifty157

04-10-2006, 02:57

Well I can't wait to be impressed. :2thumbsup:

Have you tried posting in a more technical sub-forum about your alpha channel problem? EB is obviously chronically short on these sort of skills so we may not be the best folks to ask. Incidently that's also the reason we're so happy to have your help. ~;)

Well ive posted my problem for several days now in the "modding questions" forum. But i guess nobody knows or nobody cares or just nobody looks in that forum anymore. Im debating simply reinstalling photoshop but i figure ill do as much as i can before i get to that point because of my extreme unfounded fear that photoshop will not work when i reinstall and then ill have nothing.

QwertyMIDX

04-10-2006, 03:02

Well I hope Teleklos' issue was the same as your's and we're all good to go again.

Greek_fire19

04-10-2006, 11:52

Haha, awesome! I'm playing as the sarmatians ATM and it would make it sooo much more interesting if all the steppe tribes I'm fighting had buildings like this.

Angadil

04-10-2006, 12:14

Haha, awesome! I'm playing as the sarmatians ATM and it would make it sooo much more interesting if all the steppe tribes I'm fighting had buildings like this. Hi, Greek_fire19. It's nice you have chosen the Sarmatians. We are a bit worried about problems playing this faction. Some were obvious and are already being corrected. For others, however we would really need feedback from the players. Sadly, not many people seem to play as them. Therefore, we would really appreciate your impressions and information on your campaign. However, let's not hijack this tread. Perhaps, if you go ahead and tell us, you could post in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=58780), or maybe even start a new one in the "EB - Gameplay Guides" subforum. Good luck with the nomads!

Greek_fire19

04-10-2006, 20:36

Yeah, I'm still pretty early on, but it's a lot of fun.

Fortunately for you, I'm sick atm, so I got a lot of time, you can expect a full review (with screenshots) in the gameplay forum in a couple of days when I'v played a more complete campaign.

nemesisvsbrad

04-10-2006, 23:26

for those who like nomad warfare, I wanna give some useful info as much as I can. We know that RTW every unit has 2 attack options. In real life nomads had more than that. A horse archer had a total of 60 arrows. 30 arrows for assault only. 30 arrows for defense. Each horsemen had 2 bows for different purposes. the 30 assault arrows are light (short) and not designed to cause so much damage. When nomads do the fake withdrawal, then they use bigger bows with the long, heavy, armour piercing 30 arrows to shoot down the pursuers. Their horses are trained to enable their riders shoot accurately. The masters of psychological warfare, nomads, had to confuse their enemies about their true numbers. Ages from 15 to 60 were required to serve their masters and women were trained in archery. Because of their natural way of living, the nomads adapted the new situation so quickly than any other foes. They see agricultural society as inferior way of living and treated them as low lives. Their religious practices are worship of water, fire, wind, land and the most importantly tingri (the eternal sky). They believed that every mountain has its own masters and those invisible master would be pleased if you pay the proper respect. Even nowdays some nomads on Mongolia still has these belief system. Ancient mongols never allowed themselves eat birds and fish. They were afraid to anger the underworld lords. Christian sects and Muslim sects were popular among them, too. Nomad swords were curved, single bladed and half moon shaped like Arabs. It's good for slashing than stabbing. Some rich nomad warlords bought their swords from Damascis, Syria. Nomad lances had hooks on the front and designed to bring down the enemy in case he missed him on the charge. He would quickly turn around his lance and drop him on the ground (with the hook) and finish. Some arrows had different purposes than others. One of them would be the "whistle" arrow that designed to make a terrifying sound when loose. It would make sound like thunderbolt and cause the enemy panick. Another one would be slashing arrows that designed to cut limbs to terrify the enemy. When nomads escape they use metal objects to halt the pursuers. This metal objects had spikes that no matter how it lands one of the pikes would always upside. Constant warfare among themselves or the Chinese, the nomads were experts at warfare. Their discipline were unmatched in military history.

shifty157

04-10-2006, 23:33

Those are some very detailed tactics nemesis. Its too bad however that the RTW engine wont allow for us to make any of them possible though.

nemesisvsbrad

04-11-2006, 06:00

I was just checking what happened yesterday in world history at rotten.com and saw this:

Apr 9 1241

Mongols collect nine bags of ears after a battle with Henry, Duke of Poland, at Liegnitz. A feigned retreat separated the 500 Teutonic Knights from their infantry, and the Mongols slaughtered the entire infantry. Apparently you can fit 25,000 ears into nine bags

Too bad for the Hungarians, Germans and others. And remember only right ear counts as a head, not the left ones. This battle was a result of brilliant actions of the two of Genggis' best generals, Subedei and Zebu. His another general Muhulai was fighting the southern Song dynasty in China so he couldn't be part of it. When Gengis called Muhulai for a conference, Muhulai committed suicide out of shame, because he couldn't subdue some parts of the fragmented chinese forces completely. Zebu wasn't really Zebu's real name. When Zebu's tribe fought against Gengis army, Zebu's arrow wounded Gengis' throat causing him fell unconsious. After the battle, impressed by his mastery of bow, Gengis spared his life and promoted him to general. Zebu was the man. BTW, Zebu means "arrow" in Mongolian.

nikolai1962

04-12-2006, 19:23

Well ive posted my problem for several days now in the "modding questions" forum. But i guess nobody knows or nobody cares or just nobody looks in that forum anymore. Im debating simply reinstalling photoshop but i figure ill do as much as i can before i get to that point because of my extreme unfounded fear that photoshop will not work when i reinstall and then ill have nothing.

Unfortunately, i think there are only a few people who understand the graphical stuff .

shifty157

04-14-2006, 02:21

Ok. Theres alot more to settlements than i expected and as a result things have gotten more complex. I cant find anything about what im currently doing anywhere else on the boards (these and others) so it seems im researching completely new ground. That said. It will obviously take me a little longer to put everything together. But no need to fear I have everything competely figured out. As far as my research has gone at least. In a day or two I may arguably be the most skilled person in the community in the area of settlements. I havent seen anyone else do what i currently am doing.

In other news. Work is progressing. Although things are getting progressively busier in my life. This coming week i may have no time for modding at all and perhaps very little the week after. But beyond that my time frees up considerably.

Teleklos Archelaou

04-14-2006, 02:29

Cunctator has been doing some great work with settlement plans for us recently shifty. He might be able to answer some questions, but he doesn't do anything new with skinning or modelling or that kind of stuff. But he is making it so that our eastern greek cities will have a combination of greek and eastern dwellings, and that we get to keep some egyptian buildings inside old egyptian cities. Very exciting stuff!

shifty157

04-14-2006, 02:47

I dont have any questions. The way the settlement system works is pretty straight forward. Itll just take some time and some patience to really explore all of its ins and outs and unfortunatly thats not something that someone else could really help me with.

Although there are some things that i thought were impossible before that i now know how to do and the settlement will look that much better for it.

Kull

04-14-2006, 07:38

Shifty - had you seen the Settlement Editor (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34825)?

abou

04-14-2006, 08:06

Shifty - had you seen the Settlement Editor (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=34825)?
So, what you are saying is that we should have all seven hills in Roma.

shifty157

04-14-2006, 14:55

I have seen the settlement editor.

The problem with trying to make historic cities however (such as rome or carthage or any of the others) is that while it is possible to do you can only have one settlement plan for each level of city for each culture. So you could make Rome and replace the huge city settlement plan and that would work fine as long as rome was the only huge city. As soon as another roman city became a huge city it would look exactly like rome as well. By the end of the game every city in italy would be a clone of rome and this would be rather odd.

That said however. I think it would be possible to make one of a kind historical cities . . .

But this is something ill have to do more research into. If its possible it would take quite a huge amount of work.

Actually. The more i think about it the more im almost positive that its possible to get around this limitation. The settlement plan system is much more flexible than i first thought it was. Now if we could only make BPI files we could do anything.

The_Mark

04-14-2006, 15:03

So you could make Rome and replace the huge city settlement plan and that would work fine as long as rome was the only huge city. As soon as another roman city became a huge city it would look exactly like rome as well.
Actually, you can specify a plan set for a specific settlement in the descr_strat.txt, so that's not a problem.

faction seleucid, balanced caesar
denari 5000
settlement
{
level city
region Latium2

year_founded 0
population 8770
settlement_tax 51
plan_set default_set
faction_creator seleucid
building
{
type core_building governors_palace
}

Beat you to The Mark, c. :leer:

*badam-chingg*

cunctator

04-14-2006, 15:07

You can define plan sets with 5 levels for every culture, for every city in descr_settlement_plan.txt idependently. I've already made some for 0.8.

In desrc_Strat these plan sets can be assigned to different cities instead of the default set.

shifty157

04-14-2006, 15:11

Ok. I didnt know that.

Well about 30 minutes of hard thought just became obselete. Oh well. Thats really about thirty-thousand times easier than the way i was thinking it would have to be done.

Teleklos Archelaou

04-18-2006, 15:43

Any progress in implementing the yurts or gers shifty? :grin:

Steppe Merc

04-23-2006, 17:08

Here are some representations of the windsock standards the Sarmatians and Parthians used, which the Romans adopted.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/draco6.jpg

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/steppemerc/parthia3.jpg

Angadil

04-23-2006, 18:55

Those are very good examples of the general look of the thing. However, I'd rather not rely too heavily on the head of the draco standard of the 1st pic. It has details added from a later Roman draco exacavated in Niederbieber, Germany (most notably the crest) which are probably inadequate for the earlier Sarmatian wind-sock standards.

It is quite possible that many Sarmatian standards in EB's time were just simpler wind-socks like the example below.
https://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9256/orlatdracodetail3ou.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Archaeology has not found anything like the Niederbieber draco headin Sarmatian contexts (though, if we consider that the whole Roman army has left just one draco head to us, this needs not be terribly definitive). In contrast, metal staff-tops like the one that can be seen (or at least guessed) in the pic above are quite common and, as in the pic, windsocks may have been attached to them. A couple of examples of those staff-tops:
https://img365.imageshack.us/img365/8871/minusinsk0la.gif (https://imageshack.us)https://img365.imageshack.us/img365/1462/scythstaffulskyaul5bc9xe.th.jpg (https://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scythstaffulskyaul5bc9xe.jpg)

Nonetheless, dragon-like heads may have been around too and I think some variety of designs is actually good. I'd suggest modelling those heads after the examples from Trajan's column, which are somewhat closer to EB's time. Here they are:
https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/1209/dracotrajans1detail5nt.th.jpg (https://img195.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dracotrajans1detail5nt.jpg)https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7259/dracotrajans2detail0bx.th.jpg (https://img195.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dracotrajans2detail0bx.jpg)

shifty157

04-23-2006, 19:28

Ok. Thanks for the pictures. They helped alot.

Over the past week or so i have been overwhelmed with work and have not had any chance to mod. Im just reaching the worst of this. By next weekend i should be back on track and hopefully ill have somehting for you in a short time after.

edyzmedieval

04-23-2006, 19:42

The Getai used the same windosock standards.

Anyways Shifty, any progress on the stuff?

Teleklos Archelaou

04-23-2006, 19:48

He's not been able to work on anything for the past couple of weeks. He will try to get something going later this week or next weekend.

SigniferOne

04-27-2006, 22:19

Yes you can create any set of settlement plans in 1.5 (and pretty sure in 1.2 also), and assign each city to that set if you want to. So for example, although your custom settlement will only replace one level of the set, and although you would have to create four more, you could in fact just make all five levels use the same settlement plan.

And anyhow, I don't know what the awesome technical challenges that you're struggling are, ones that no one else knows about, but if you describe them here perhaps someone (such as myself) could help. I'm SigniferOne from TWC.

shifty157

04-27-2006, 22:54

Yes i know who you are. Im well aquainted with your work. Your reputation precedes you. Thanks for your offer but ive more or less figured everything out. Just working with DSP.txt and underlays and overlays and that fun stuff. Mostly testing what i can and cant do. Since i couldnt find anything on the internet even mentioning this stuff i figured i was breaking new ground.

Regardless, at this point i just need to put in the work to finish this off and im still kind of stuck on time. But that should be alleviated soon. Hopefully.

Maybe when im done ill write a tutorial but thats not something im worrying about now.

Ive been making some decent progress as far as modeling and skinning the new buildings goes. Although its been slow. My tentative forecast is to be completely done with everything (buildings, settlement plans, settlement levels, etc) by the end of may. I think that's a pretty reasonable goal.

nemesisvsbrad

05-15-2006, 02:12

some photos, please?

Mithradates

05-15-2006, 17:09

Are these improvements going to be added to the port to 1.5?

Teleklos Archelaou

05-15-2006, 17:19

Currently we don't know. I think they might have to wait, but we will see. Shifty still has a week or so of school left, and so with exams and such he's been focusing on that lately, but he says he will hopefully have some screenshots in a few more days (I'd think after his exams is more likely).

We really are excited about this though, and we're keeping our fingers crossed that he's been able to get some more things into the game for the mod. I've been working on porting the new nomadic code over into the 1.5 build and I think we've got that working now. So having these will be really terrific, if we can get them into 0.8, or if it has to wait till a patch for 0.8 or even 0.9. Either way, we hope that it will be something no other mod can offer and another feather in our cap. (whispers: everyone else heap praise upon shifty upon future submissions though to help motivate him more :grin:)

Mithradates

05-15-2006, 18:51

Keep up the good work shifty! ~:thumb: ~:thumb: ~:thumb:

shifty157

05-16-2006, 02:02

lol. Thanks TA.

Im sorry this is taking so long. Like TA said its exam time at school. Theyll be over with at the end of next week at which point ill have a great deal of free time. Normally exams arent too bad but earlier in the semester we missed a good deal of school days and now the teachers are trying to cram in the rest of the course material so its pretty hectic at the moment. Believe me id rather be modelling than doing this. Oh well. Ive made most of the major buildings but there is still work to be done.

paullus

05-16-2006, 04:18

crap man, i know how that can be. i turned in my last research papers of the term and graded my last exams, and its like someone took an acme anvil off my shoulders. good luck finishing all that up, and i'll be excitedly looking forward to any further developments with the settlements.

shifty157

06-02-2006, 22:58

Just to keep everyone informed. I just sent TA a whole bunch of screens of the various buildings ive made so far. Whether or not i can post them here publicly i leave up to him.

Teleklos Archelaou

06-02-2006, 23:04

I just posted them internally. We will probably do a nomad preview before much longer, so let's keep them bottled up till then :grin: to increase the excitement when we do release a lot more nomad stuff. Can't say how happy I was to see the new buildings! We're discussing how best to change up settlement plans to reflect nomad settlements too.

shifty157

06-02-2006, 23:06

Just keep me informed.

Teleklos Archelaou

06-02-2006, 23:09

When you are able to work on the next ones, please let us know. These and hopefully some new settlement changes (combined with the new building system we have) will be huge and something the players won't be able to get anywhere close to in any other mod.

shifty157

06-02-2006, 23:53

I am already continuing to work on the other buildings needed. There are several WIPs that i have at the moment.

Also i want to send you these textures that i have for you to resave because my alpha channels dont work.

Angadil

06-03-2006, 10:58

I'll just echo TA's feelings here. Those buildings really made my day:elephant: Thanks a lot!

Greek_fire19

06-03-2006, 11:54

Sounds dead exciting :)

I can't wait, and if it's anything like the stuff we've seen so far, it's safe to say I'll be damn impressed.

HamilcarBarca

06-08-2006, 03:42

This would be an awesome development.

If the project goes ahead I would be able to provide rough maps (based on archeaology) for the following Punic cities;
* Carthage
* Gadir (in southern Spain)
* Tharros (west coast of Sardinia)
* Nora (south coast of Sardinia)
* Sulci (southwest coast of Sardinia)
* Lepki a.k.a. Leptis Magna (Libya)
* Lixus (Morocco)

and some others;
* Syracuse (Greek city in Sicily)
* Acragas a.k.a. Agrigento (Greek city in Sicily)
* Alexandria (Egypt)
* Taras a.k.a. Tarentum (Greek city in southern Italy a.k.a. Magna Graecia)
* Emporion (Greek city in Catalonia, north-eastern Spain)

If some of these would be of use keep me in mind.

H.

shifty157

06-08-2006, 05:44

Thank you for the offer but something as large as you propose wont happen for some time.

MSB

10-04-2006, 07:43

Apparantly M2's cities are going to be "worked into the landscapes" according to a developers blog. I think he meant that the cities and settlements are going to be on the top of cliffs and hills and are going to have ditches e.c.t. I also read something about earthenware seiges with moats and such like. If EB was to port to the M2 engine then they could have historical seiges and cities.

CountArach

10-04-2006, 09:08

Wow talk about resurrecting the dead Matthius, this one died 2 months ago.

A port to M2TW would not in fact be a port, the game engine, though similar, will still have some overhauls and this will take a lot of time.

Simmons

10-04-2006, 10:20

A port to M2TW would not in fact be a port, the game engine, though similar, will still have some overhauls and this will take a lot of time.To true one just has to look at the clickable unit names introduced in the 1.5 patch to see how minor changes can have such huge repercussions for mods.

Trithemius

10-04-2006, 10:35

Simmons

10-04-2006, 11:03

Doesn't look much different in the demo movies? Maybe they are still tinkering?This is seen more in the screenshots

Hazzaahh
http://www.gamearena.com.au/gameres/3296/images/source/2274MTW2_euro_0266.jpg

http://www.gamearena.com.au/gameres/3296/images/source/2262MTW2_0138_T.jpg

If anyone does not like the high res screenshots just shout out and I will try and find some smaller ones

eadingas

10-04-2006, 11:09

That DOES look impressive...

CountArach

10-04-2006, 12:31

That DOES look impressive...

Indeed, pretty awesome.

But the AI will still be horrible ~:(

eadingas

10-04-2006, 13:22

MSB

10-04-2006, 18:29

What worries me more is that it will probably make it even harder to transfer mods to MTWII...

Although I'll bet everything will be a walk in the park compared to what scripters will have to go through to transfer their scripts to MTWII engine... even change from 1.2 to 1.5 was a nightmare for our scripting team..
I did read that the graphics engine in M2 is just an improved version of the RTW one. Perhaps the M2 scripts will be either the same or will be simpler than RTW. M2 may be even more modable that RTW if you look at the patterns:

Shogun (2000): Sort of moddable
Medieval 1 (2002): Reasonably moddable
Rome (2004): Almost completely moddable

So if you look at that list you can see a pattern. It shows that the TW series has slowly got more and more modder friendly over time. So if the pattern continues:

Medieval 2 (2006): Completely and totally moddable?
(the next engine after Medieval 2)(est.2008): No hard codes, completely moddable?

But the AI will still be horrible ~:(

No it apparently wont be. The TW website says that the AI will no longer randomly attack people (it will take into account your military might) and the AI will be a much better tactician on the battlefield.