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Lemur
03-22-2006, 16:51
I don't think the conclusions of this study (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1142722231554&call_pageid=970599119419) are particularly valid, but it's still worth a read. Basically, a scientist measured personality in a bunch of 4- and 3-year olds, and then followed up 20 years later to measure their politics. Some interesting data, and I can certainly see a connection between the whiny perma-outrage of the far right and a whiny childhood, but I think the results are oversimplified.

I do agree, however, that a person's political stance rarely has anything to do with reason or logic.

How to spot a baby conservative
KID POLITICS | Whiny children, claims a new study, tend to grow up rigid and traditional. Future liberals, on the other hand ...

Mar. 19, 2006. 10:45 AM
KURT KLEINER
SPECIAL TO THE TORONTO STAR

Remember the whiny, insecure kid in nursery school, the one who always thought everyone was out to get him, and was always running to the teacher with complaints? Chances are he grew up to be a conservative.

At least, he did if he was one of 95 kids from the Berkeley area that social scientists have been tracking for the last 20 years. The confident, resilient, self-reliant kids mostly grew up to be liberals.

The study from the Journal of Research Into Personality isn't going to make the UC Berkeley professor who published it any friends on the right. Similar conclusions a few years ago from another academic saw him excoriated on right-wing blogs, and even led to a Congressional investigation into his research funding.

But the new results are worth a look. In the 1960s Jack Block and his wife and fellow professor Jeanne Block (now deceased) began tracking more than 100 nursery school kids as part of a general study of personality. The kids' personalities were rated at the time by teachers and assistants who had known them for months. There's no reason to think political bias skewed the ratings — the investigators were not looking at political orientation back then. Even if they had been, it's unlikely that 3- and 4-year-olds would have had much idea about their political leanings.

A few decades later, Block followed up with more surveys, looking again at personality, and this time at politics, too. The whiny kids tended to grow up conservative, and turned into rigid young adults who hewed closely to traditional gender roles and were uncomfortable with ambiguity.

The confident kids turned out liberal and were still hanging loose, turning into bright, non-conforming adults with wide interests. The girls were still outgoing, but the young men tended to turn a little introspective.

Block admits in his paper that liberal Berkeley is not representative of the whole country. But within his sample, he says, the results hold. He reasons that insecure kids look for the reassurance provided by tradition and authority, and find it in conservative politics. The more confident kids are eager to explore alternatives to the way things are, and find liberal politics more congenial.

In a society that values self-confidence and out-goingness, it's a mostly flattering picture for liberals. It also runs contrary to the American stereotype of wimpy liberals and strong conservatives.

Of course, if you're studying the psychology of politics, you shouldn't be surprised to get a political reaction. Similar work by John T. Jost of Stanford and colleagues in 2003 drew a political backlash. The researchers reviewed 44 years worth of studies into the psychology of conservatism, and concluded that people who are dogmatic, fearful, intolerant of ambiguity and uncertainty, and who crave order and structure are more likely to gravitate to conservatism. Critics branded it the "conservatives are crazy" study and accused the authors of a political bias.

Jost welcomed the new study, saying it lends support to his conclusions. But Jeff Greenberg, a social psychologist at the University of Arizona who was critical of Jost's study, was less impressed.

"I found it to be biased, shoddy work, poor science at best," he said of the Block study. He thinks insecure, defensive, rigid people can as easily gravitate to left-wing ideologies as right-wing ones. He suspects that in Communist China, those kinds of people would likely become fervid party members.

The results do raise some obvious questions. Are nursery school teachers in the conservative heartland cursed with classes filled with little proto-conservative whiners?

Or does an insecure little boy raised in Idaho or Alberta surrounded by conservatives turn instead to liberalism?

Or do the whiny kids grow up conservative along with the majority of their more confident peers, while only the kids with poor impulse control turn liberal?

Part of the answer is that personality is not the only factor that determines political leanings. For instance, there was a .27 correlation between being self-reliant in nursery school and being a liberal as an adult. Another way of saying it is that self-reliance predicts statistically about 7 per cent of the variance between kids who became liberal and those who became conservative. (If every self-reliant kid became a liberal and none became conservatives, it would predict 100 per cent of the variance). Seven per cent is fairly strong for social science, but it still leaves an awful lot of room for other influences, such as friends, family, education, personal experience and plain old intellect.

For conservatives whose feelings are still hurt, there is a more flattering way for them to look at the results. Even if they really did tend to be insecure complainers as kids, they might simply have recognized that the world is a scary, unfair place.

Their grown-up conclusion that the safest thing is to stick to tradition could well be the right one. As for their "rigidity," maybe that's just moral certainty.

The grown-up liberal men, on the other hand, with their introspection and recognition of complexity in the world, could be seen as self-indulgent and ineffectual.

Whether anyone's feelings are hurt or not, the work suggests that personality and emotions play a bigger role in our political leanings than we think. All of us, liberal or conservative, feel as though we've reached our political opinions by carefully weighing the evidence and exercising our best judgment. But it could be that all of that careful reasoning is just after-the-fact self-justification. What if personality forms our political outlook, with reason coming along behind, rationalizing after the fact?

It could be that whom we vote for has less to do with our judgments about tax policy or free trade or health care, and more with the personalities we've been stuck with since we were kids.

Kurt Kleiner is a Toronto-based freelance science writer.

master of the puppets
03-22-2006, 17:01
i think your right that it is oversimplified, but lets not discredit it cause it sounds true, the study seems legit and it flows with some previously known data on the phsyche of liberal and conservative parties. weak people find strengh in orderr and rigidness and people with natural strengh wander. i should like to hear more imformation on this.

BDC
03-22-2006, 18:14
Interesting. Some people I have known since nursery school definately haven't changed a bit, whilst others have changed completely. You'd need a much bigger study I think.

Xiahou
03-22-2006, 18:19
Block admits in his paper that liberal Berkeley is not representative of the whole country.:laugh4: Possibly the understatement of the century. :laugh4:

Lemur
03-22-2006, 18:22
Xihaou, yeah, I was thinking that one conclusion you might draw from the study is that fussier children tend to react against the prevailing political climate in which they're raised. Since Berkley is uber-left, that would explain why the whinier kids wound up embracing the elephant.

Just a theory. And probably just as valid as the one they put forward.

A.Saturnus
03-22-2006, 18:39
Seven per cent is fairly strong for social science, but it still leaves an awful lot of room for other influences, such as friends, family, education, personal experience and plain old intellect.

7 percent is small, even in social science. So, if there is a connection between self-reliance and liberalism, it's rather weak. And that in the Berkeley area.
BTW, I don't see what the topic title has to do with it.

Lemur
03-22-2006, 18:48
BTW, I don't see what the topic title has to do with it.
Anyone who has had kids will tell you that a large part of their personality is right there from the beginning. You can shape, educate and nurture, but they still have their nature, their character, and nothing's going to alter that fundamental.

So if the study is valid (and we all have serious reservations about that), then someone correlating 3- or 4-year-old character to political affiliation would probably be finding a birth link. As in, your electoral leanings might be hard-coded.

Does that help justify the title of the thread, or have I missed your point completely?

A.Saturnus
03-22-2006, 19:08
Anyone who has had kids will tell you that a large part of their personality is right there from the beginning. You can shape, educate and nurture, but they still have their nature, their character, and nothing's going to alter that fundamental.


Did anyone who has had kids publish that in a peer-reviewed journal? ~;)
I'm not saying that there aren't any traits that are for a substantial part inborn, but evidence in abundance shows that personality can change considerably and that influences within the first 2 years are very important.

Thus, even if the connection exists and is magnitudes higher than the study suggests, it would be too strong to assume that political leanings are 'hard-coded'.

Lemur
03-22-2006, 19:10
Okay, so you disagree with the thread title rather than seeing it as a complete non sequitur. That's all well and good, then.

Tachikaze
03-22-2006, 21:25
In a society that values self-confidence and out-goingness, it's a mostly flattering picture for liberals. It also runs contrary to the American stereotype of wimpy liberals and strong conservatives.
This was significant to me. The guys who try to appear masculine and strong, with an "I don't have to care" attitude, are the most insecure and weakest. They feel safer in their huge pickups, though.

Most often, people present a face to the public that hides their true feelings and insecurities. Thus, people are often deep down in direct contrast to their public persona.

I watched the students I knew in college and found some correlations. Liberals tended to have either liberal parents, whose political views they adopted, or extremely conservative, whose views they rebelled against.

I definitely think that conservatives are "rigid young adults who hewed closely to traditional gender roles and were uncomfortable with ambiguity" and "insecure kids [who] look for the reassurance provided by tradition and authority".

I would add that they religious ones feel the need to follow authority (in the form of God and church) and be told rules that help them face the ambiquity that makes them nervous.

Alexander the Pretty Good
03-23-2006, 01:25
And they're also stupid. Stupid conservatives.

~:rolleyes:

Tachikaze
03-23-2006, 08:44
And they're also stupid. Stupid conservatives.
Well . . . yeah

Sjakihata
03-23-2006, 08:58
I dont believe in this study whatsoever - political belief has to do with sound reasoning, and human compassion.

Banquo's Ghost
03-23-2006, 11:31
Hmm.

There's an old saying in anthropology:

'In a country as big and diverse as the United States, you can find 100 examples of anything.' ~D

Anyway, 'social science' is to real science what Paris Hilton is to Astrophysics. :dizzy2:

Lemur
03-23-2006, 14:49
Political belief has to do with sound reasoning, and human compassion.
Ummm ... you're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding ... oh dear lord, you must be kidding ...

Tachikaze
03-23-2006, 16:17
Anyway, 'social science' is to real science what Paris Hilton is to Astrophysics. :dizzy2:
If that were true, the fashion industry would be bankrupt, and marketing analysts would be begging on the streets.

Sjakihata
03-23-2006, 16:54
Ummm ... you're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding ... oh dear lord, you must be kidding ...

Why should I be kidding?

Devastatin Dave
03-23-2006, 18:04
Interesting study. Hopefully they'll follow up this study into why the liberal babies turn from being "confident, resilient, self-reliant" as children to whiney, unreliant adults. Should be interesting.:2thumbsup:

Sjakihata
03-23-2006, 18:14
Hopefully they'll follow up this study into why the liberal babies turn from being "confident, resilient, self-reliant" as children to whiney, unreliant adults. Should be interesting.

Your tone annoy me.

econ21
03-23-2006, 18:33
Fascinating study. I think it is clear that some personality traits such as conformism and attitudes to authority will translate fairly straightforwardly into political stances. Revolutionaries - like Stalin and Hitler - were outsiders and rebels at school. I've heard rebelliousness in particular related to birth order too (in a book, "Born to rebel") - the first born may be more conventional, eager to meet their eager parents' expectations; the latter born may be more rebellious, trying to get their over-stretched parents' attention by defiance.

How the psychology translates into specific political ideologies - like US conservative/liberal or left-right spilts more generally - is less clear. It partly depends on which ideologies are prevailing at the time and whether they imply preservation of the status quo or thoroughgoing social change.

In contemporary China, a cautious, "conservative" mindset that respect authority and fears change is likely to be attracted to a "left" stance, wanting to preserve the state and party, rather than move further to the market and democracy. Likewise in Berkeley, liberalism may be the status quo attitude and rebels may turn to political conservativism. These things also probably change over time - some US/UK conservatives of the 1980s rebelling against the liberalism of their parents in the 1960s.

solypsist
03-23-2006, 18:50
Both sides are whiners and the good people are the ones who stay far far away from all this nonsense.


Interesting study. Hopefully they'll follow up this study into why the liberal babies turn from being "confident, resilient, self-reliant" as children to whiney, unreliant adults. Should be interesting.:2thumbsup:

Devastatin Dave
03-23-2006, 19:12
Your tone annoy me.
Sorry, a lot of tones annoy me as well, like the Deftones.:laugh4:
Is my tone any worse than "conservatives are stupid", "well yeah"? If you don't like my tone, don't read my posts and stop whining like a future conservative baby.:bow:

Devastatin Dave
03-23-2006, 19:20
Both sides are whiners and the good people are the ones who stay far far away from all this nonsense.
So we're both whiners soly. I feel somewhat more complete now that we're more a like than what you would probably want to acknowledge.:idea2:
Soly are you trying to say that you are somehow an unbiased person that this study does not reflect upon? LOL:laugh4:

Sjakihata
03-23-2006, 19:26
Sorry, a lot of tones annoy me as well, like the Deftones.:laugh4:
Is my tone any worse than "conservatives are stupid", "well yeah"? If you don't like my tone, don't read my posts and stop whining like a future conservative baby.:bow:

:skull:

Intelligence at it highest level, darwinism still has a lot of work to complete.

Devastatin Dave
03-23-2006, 19:47
:skull:

Intelligence at it highest level, darwinism still has a lot of work to complete.
Nice personal insult. Good job. I'll keep posting what I want and you can just whine about it. Here's an idea, how about discussing the subject of the thread instead of just saying "Your tone annoy me.". By the way, Mr High Level Darwin Intelligence Survivor guy, "annoyS me" would be more proper but thanks for your contribution to the discussion. Now go troll someone else....

:book:

Sjakihata
03-23-2006, 20:17
I suggest we take this discussion in danish, german or french if you like - and I shall point out some spelling mistakes...

Btw, Im quite sure that annoy me is grammatical correct, annoys me would be wrong.. I see you edited too..

Devastatin Dave
03-23-2006, 20:23
I suggest we take this discussion in danish, german or french if you like - and I shall point out some spelling mistakes...

Btw, Im quite sure that annoy me is grammatical correct, annoys me would be wrong.. I see you edited too..
Here's a better idea, how about we talk about this through PM's instead of annoying everyone with a tit for tat hissy fit that is wasting this thread. I'm sure you'll reply to this post to get the final word...:juggle2:

Ser Clegane
03-23-2006, 20:29
how about we talk about this through PM's instead of annoying everyone with a tit for tat hissy fit that is wasting this thread.

Excellent idea :thumbsup:

A.Saturnus
03-23-2006, 20:32
Anyway, 'social science' is to real science what Paris Hilton is to Astrophysics. :dizzy2:

We're still better than economists.

econ21
03-23-2006, 22:09
We're still better than economists.

~:pissed:

Sjakihata
03-23-2006, 22:28
We're still better than economists.

And they are still better than the psychologists. (I suppose you dont include psychology in social science, to me social science is in german socialkunde; politics, statistics etc)

Strike For The South
03-24-2006, 01:01
Tachi youve explained it all. I go to church and drive a truck becuase Im a big pussy whose scared to think and loves to be part of the machine. For someone who hates genralzations you really screwed yourself one this one

Major Robert Dump
03-24-2006, 01:04
So what do the retarded kids grow up to be? Green Party?

Tachikaze
03-24-2006, 18:46
Sorry, a lot of tones annoy me as well, like the Deftones.:laugh4:
Is my tone any worse than "conservatives are stupid", "well yeah"? If you don't like my tone, don't read my posts and stop whining like a future conservative baby.:bow:
I agreed with him enthusiastically. It sounds like a good tone to me. Wouldn't it be worse if I argued with him?

Tachikaze
03-24-2006, 23:36
Tachi youve explained it all. I go to church and drive a truck becuase Im a big pussy whose scared to think and loves to be part of the machine. For someone who hates genralzations you really screwed yourself one this one
Why don't you attack the people making generalizations about feminists in the "Pornography" thread?

Generalizations abound in these forums. You're singling out one you disagree with.

And, yes, I consider men who fill their lives with symbols of masculine power, whether they be clothing, guns, or oversized motor vehicles (when such a vehicle is unnecessary) are compensating for something.

For what other purpose can an obsession with masculine power symbols have?

Strike For The South
03-25-2006, 00:44
And, yes, I consider men who fill their lives with symbols of masculine power, whether they be clothing, guns, or oversized motor vehicles (when such a vehicle is unnecessary) are compensating for something.

For what other purpose can an obsession with masculine power symbols have?

Maybe they like it? "compsanting for something" is a cop out. Just becuase you dont like trucks or clothing or guns dosent automattcly make the other person inferoir. There just diffrent like all the minorities you rave about.

Lemur
03-25-2006, 03:07
As the guy who posted the original article in the first place, I feel a need to point out that I don't agree with their conclusions, and I think they were stretching the data to the breaking point. It's absurd to take one rather biased study conducted in Berkley and conclude that every man in flannel with a pickup and a shotgun is hiding his inner gay man.

I mean, you can go there if you want, but don't base it on this study. That's all I'm saying.

Sasaki Kojiro
03-25-2006, 03:23
Why don't you attack the people making generalizations about feminists in the "Pornography" thread?

Generalizations abound in these forums. You're singling out one you disagree with.

And, yes, I consider men who fill their lives with symbols of masculine power, whether they be clothing, guns, or oversized motor vehicles (when such a vehicle is unnecessary) are compensating for something.

For what other purpose can an obsession with masculine power symbols have?

Compensating for what? More likely they feel pressured to live up to the "male image". Achieving that image can give them security. If you look the part you must be the part.

Of course people can like the stereotypical male things just because they like them. I will say though that the people I know who are hardcore sports fans or really fascinated by trucks are a little messed up. And weightlifters tend to be really homophobic. This is like what you were saying?

A.Saturnus
03-25-2006, 16:41
~:pissed:

:tongue3:


And they are still better than the psychologists. (I suppose you dont include psychology in social science, to me social science is in german socialkunde; politics, statistics etc)

I am a psychologist.

Tachikaze
03-25-2006, 17:07
Compensating for what? More likely they feel pressured to live up to the "male image". Achieving that image can give them security. If you look the part you must be the part.

Of course people can like the stereotypical male things just because they like them. I will say though that the people I know who are hardcore sports fans or really fascinated by trucks are a little messed up. And weightlifters tend to be really homophobic. This is like what you were saying?
Pretty close. When I said "compensating for something" I was symbolically referring to a body part. But, it really means a feeling of inadequacy.

To me, if someone spends thousands of extra dollars on a huge, high-rise, balloon-tired pickup truck that burns exce$$ive ga$oline, is difficult to manuever and park (I get the giggles watching them sometimes), and rolls over easily in a sharp manuever, they have a serious obsession with masculinity.

Don't get me started on loudmouths who have overdosed on testosterone at football games.