Illegal Immgrants Protest

[Strike For The South]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/23/immigration.rally.ap/index.html

Wow. Illegal people in my country want my rights! Do these people know they have no rights? WE HAD 30,000 RIGHT THERE AND nothing was done. My goverment needs to grown some damned balls. These people disgust me.

[Redleg]

I wonder if the individual stating the below quote realizes the hypocrisy in their statement.


They also rallied against the prospect of illegal immigrants losing their driving privileges in the next few years. A new federal law requires states to verify whether drivers license applicants are American citizens or legal residents by 2008.

"We never close our eyes to any injustice against any human being," said Christine Neumann-Ortiz, president of Voces de la frontera, the rally's organizer.

Hmm - I wonder how the illegal immigrant is getting a legal document with legal proof of citizenship. :inquisitive:


Hint: I alreadly know the answer to this question, I wonder if Christine knows the answer to it however. :no:

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Yes, they bring in bad things, but don't we have plenty of our own? They do many jobs that you and I would never do, and all they ask are basic rights. You disgust me

[Strike For The South]

Yes, they bring in bad things, but don't we have plenty of our own? They do many jobs that you and I would never do, and all they ask are basic rights. You disgust me

So in essence you are going to allow MILLIONS of uneducated people whom undermine our culture and socitey who settle in little pockets which produce more poverty! I Mean gawd AOM you do live in my city right? You see it right or do not leave the nieghboorhood?:inquisitive:

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

They do many jobs that you and I would never do
If we kept employers from hiring illegal immigrants, I think they'd find some American to do the work.

I'm willing to give it the old college try.


and all they ask are basic rights
Driving privileges? :inquisitive:

[Major Robert Dump]

I didn't realize rights were guaranteed to people who have done all they can to avoid registering, paying taxes, getting car insurance abd being held accountable like the rest of us.

They don't do jobs no one else wants, the do jobs that scumbag employers dont want to pay a decent wage for americans to do

If you are going to use the welfare system FFS the least you can do is pay taxes, go to jury duty, and vote like the rest of us. What makes me sick are folks who hide behind the human aspect of the story and refuse to see the cold, hard facts of undue burden illegal immigration is causing this country.

But guess what? If the feds won't do anything, the states will, and as state after state passes laws that WILL be upheld in the SCOTUS the illegals will slowly but surely migrate to states that refuse to act, overburdening them, until they, too have to act. What kind of laws you ask? Laws that require people to show proof of citizenship when they want to use the system, laws that require state workers to report people who are illegal, laws that levy HUGE fines to employers who use illegals including possible jail time, etc etc

All the hispanic civil rights groups in the world wont styop this, even if they are the largest non-white race in the states, because its not a white vs hispanics issue, its an american vs nonamerican issue and we have every other LEGAL race and ethnic group on our side.

Some of the greatest people I have met in my life were illegal immigrants, and I refuse to let this cloud the issue because we are all subject to the same rules

[Ice]

They have no rights. They are here illegally. Only citizens and legal visitors of this country may enjoy their rights.

[Papewaio]

If you are going to use the welfare system FFS the least you can do is pay taxes, go to jury duty, and vote like the rest of us.

Enron, United + "All Phase, Enron Broadband Services, FirstWorld, Global Crossing, MCI Metro, McLeodUSA, Metromedia Fiber, 360networks (USA), XO Communications, Williams Communications, WorldCom"

Could all fill the bill of being poor corporate citizens and doing far worse to the economy then those at the lowest tier.

I say go for the people employing the illegals. Make it the same as drug trafficking... take all the corporate assests that use illegal immigrants... and possibly put the onus not just on the contractors but the companies hiring the contractors too.

[Ice]

Enron, United + "All Phase, Enron Broadband Services, FirstWorld, Global Crossing, MCI Metro, McLeodUSA, Metromedia Fiber, 360networks (USA), XO Communications, Williams Communications, WorldCom"

Could all fill the bill of being poor corporate citizens and doing far worse to the economy then those at the lowest tier.

I say go for the people employing the illegals. Make it the same as drug trafficking... take all the corporate assests that use illegal immigrants... and possibly put the onus not just on the contractors but the companies hiring the contractors too.

I like this idea. Something drastic needs to be done, now.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

as a legal migrant that must keep jumping through hoops, that poo really gets on my chest. GoshDarnit!

:furious3:

I'm so good, I'm even registered to be drafted if the situation arose that I were needed.

:knight: .

[Alexanderofmacedon]

All good points. I think I rashly posted in response to SFTS, because I think we're a bit too hard on them.

Plus I'm way to lazy to argue my points...

[Samurai Waki]

Well the matter has to be tended to immediately, but we need to do it in an economic and friendly as possible matter. I want this law to be passed, you need to have VALID citizenship to be applicable for all jobs, in that way employers can't discriminate nor can illegal immigrants work without getting citizenship. Obviously, we're not going to kick the illegals out... but maybe the illegals need to go to a citizenship class in their spare their time, lets say 2 days a week for 2 years, to attend a four or five hour course, which would be mandatory by law if they pass they get citizenship, and one of the requirements should be, to be able to at least comprehend english, and our financial system. If they don't pass, they should be required to retake the class until completion, after say 3 times, and they fail to complete their course, they get their Green Cards Revoked, and their employement wherever they are, will be terminated. If an employer fails to terminate the employee, even if the work is all 'under the table' and a federal agent finds out, they may be subject to a fine of up to 10,000,000 USD, and/or 20 years in prison. If the illegal immigrant has not left the country prior to 60 days after complete failure, he/she will be subject to forced deportation, or up to 10 years imprisonment.

[Major Robert Dump]

Enron, United + "All Phase, Enron Broadband Services, FirstWorld, Global Crossing, MCI Metro, McLeodUSA, Metromedia Fiber, 360networks (USA), XO Communications, Williams Communications, WorldCom"

Could all fill the bill of being poor corporate citizens and doing far worse to the economy then those at the lowest tier.

I say go for the people employing the illegals. Make it the same as drug trafficking... take all the corporate assests that use illegal immigrants... and possibly put the onus not just on the contractors but the companies hiring the contractors too.


I won't argue that its a bad idea you got there. But it goes far deeper than the typical idea of sorporate use of illegals, and is far more prevalent in general labor positions such as construction laborer, landscaping and manufacturing.

Don't get me started on how "free international trade" has encouraged all this, but the biggest problem in punishing people who employs illegals is the fact that the biggest employer of illegals is small businesses and mom and pop businesses, the sacred goat of american commerce. Just about every speel about economics, business and minimum wage invokes the "waaaaaah! it will hurt small businesses! small businesses drive the country! waaaah!" so fat chance holding these folks accountable, because these folks are joe regular, my neighbor. Nonetheless, they deserve to have their asses fined off

[Papewaio]

I brought up the big guys who file for bankruptcy because they screw over far more people...

Well the contractors I was mainly referring to are in the building business, plasters, cable laying, roofies etc... and I can see Companies using sub-contracting to dodge any question about them hiring illegals... thats why I think the onus should be on the primary company that is responsible for the site... these laws should apply to everyone.

[BigTex]

Yes, they bring in bad things, but don't we have plenty of our own? They do many jobs that you and I would never do, and all they ask are basic rights. You disgust me

Its not that American's wont do them its that we wont do them for 1$ an hour. The large quantity of illegals is driving down the wages of the average worker, its horrible. Not to mention in areas were there are heavy numbers of illegals how is a kid supposed to get a first job. Lord knows it was hard enough for me and I lived near Dallas. We need to require that all who employ here only employ legal immigrants and citizens. It wont stop our economy, instead they will start highering for higher wages. Or the farmers will do what they should have done ages ago and invest in robotics. Labor shortages are important, they help spur wages and technological improvements, just look at what the black plague did for europe, helped usher in the renassiance. I also say no to the idea that they should be forced to take citizenship classes to stay here. No one should be forced to become a citizen. It should be done of their own free will, with a clear head as to what being a citizen of the great United States of America means. You should not lower the meaning of citizenship by forcing people to become one, it should be an honor, a hard earned gift, the right to vote, the right to hold any office besides the head of the Presidency. We need to get the illegals out of here.

[Ja'chyra]

Wait a second, you had 30,000 illegal immigrants all handily gathered in one place and you didn't deport them:dizzy2:


Alexanderofmacedon

Yes, they bring in bad things, but don't we have plenty of our own? They do many jobs that you and I would never do, and all they ask are basic rights. You disgust me

I don't see any arguments in there that says illegal immigrants should have the same rights as citizens.

I'd say Pape has the best idea, the same way that safety can't be delegated, neither should the responsibility for hiring illegals. I also think that citizenship classes are a good idea and that they should all be forced to learn the language of the host nation, there is nothing more ignorant than expecting a country to support you when you can't even be bothered to learn their language.

[Tribesman]

Wait a second, you had 30,000 illegal immigrants all handily gathered in one place and you didn't deport them
Well they were going to , but they thought that the approx 200,000 people on the protest in Chicago would be a bit too much to handle . especially as they were only expecting 10,000 to turn up .
Though of course not all of the people on the protest were illegals , for example there was a Tribesman who was one of the organisers of that Chicago protest , he is a very successful multi millionaire businessman , though of course he like so many others did originally enter as an illegal .

Anyhow that aside , I thought the protest was more about the bill being a badly thought out example of knee jerk politics to pander to populism .

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

[B]
Well they were going to.

um, really?

I doubt it.

Edit: oh wait, I could solve so many of my problems by becoming an illegal.

Why didn't they round up a few hundred of the Irish illegals who protested on St.Pat's day? ( a slightly smaller crowd than a mass everybody-who's-illegal group)
I enjoyed hearing some of the leading Democrats who have claimed to be seriously against illegal immigration sucking up to the Irish ones *tips hat to Hilary*, it was grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat! as Tony the Tiger would say.

[Tribesman]

um, really?

I doubt it.

Sarcasm Taffy , do you miss it ~;)
But on a practical side , how exactly would they arrest , process and then deport those of the 30,000 who need to be deported , at a single event in a single city ? Then work out how they could do it in every town and city that held protests that day. Maybe they need to implement a draft to get the manpower , but then who would fill the jobs of the Draftees while they are busy .:laugh4:
enjoyed hearing some of the leading Democrats who have claimed to be seriously against illegal immigration sucking up to the Irish ones *tips hat to Hilary*, it was grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat!
Thats funny , since the US government is talking with the Irish government about how to let them stay , and last time I looked it was leading Republicans(of the American flavour) that were that government .
So are they sucking up to the illegals too ?
Everyone agrees that something has to be done , but is this bill the thing that is going to work ?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

um, really?

I doubt it.

Sarcasm Taffy , do you miss it ~;)


never know with you.


enjoyed hearing some of the leading Democrats who have claimed to be seriously against illegal immigration sucking up to the Irish ones *tips hat to Hilary*, it was grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat!
Thats funny , since the US government is talking with the Irish government about how to let them stay , and last time I looked it was leading Republicans(of the American flavour) that were that government .
So are they sucking up to the illegals too ?
Everyone agrees that something has to be done , but is this bill the thing that is going to work ?

I enjoyed hearing the Deomcrats, I didn't hear the Republicans though, I'm sure I'd have enjoyed that too, all twats.

and if you were making fun of the draft thing (and again who knows with you), it is a legal requirement for foreign residents under 26 whether they are there legally or not.

30,000 turned up that day? I'm sure they could have taken a few away, or would that inherent predisposition to rioting have come to the fore?

Edit: I mean, people from large groups have been known to be arrested before without rioting but people seem to be saying that this can't be done because of numbers. Edit to Edit: like in that massive CA march, between 100,000 and 250, 000 people, a handful were arrested, London was not trashed by angry yokels and toffs.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

about the rally, I'd missed John McCain, but it was sucking up all round:

"“It is so heartening to see you here,” said Clinton. “You are really here on behalf of what America means, America’s values, America’s hopes.”

“You are doing what democracy is supposed to be all about, petitioning the government to right a wrong,” said McCain."

Why not try "go home, get a visa, the U.S. govt. gives visas to Irish people like candy to kids at halloween. You'll be fine."


"Another item in the Irish Times, with the headline “Irish rally to press for legal status in America,” said: “More than 2,400 undocumented Irish immigrants and their supporters rallied in Washington yesterday in support of an immigration reform bill that would allow them to remain in the U.S. legally.” This report further noted that “Senators Kennedy, John McCain, Hillary Clinton and Charles Schumer addressed the demonstrators, who wore white T-shirts with the slogan ‘Legalize the Irish.’”"


2400, you could round those up, it's just the pesky legal ones and Irish Americans that you'd have to go through to get the ones you want.

Edit: here's Hilary from 2003:
"I am, you know, adamantly against illegal immigrants. Clearly we have to make some tough decisions as a country, and one of them ought to be coming up with a much better entry-and-exit system so that if we are going to let people in for the work that otherwise would not be done, let's have a system that keeps track of them... People have to stop employing illegal immigrants."

Edit: also, 50 000 is total estimate of Irish illegals, in case anybody is interested.

Edit: about sarcasm, maybe a little.

[Devastatin Dave]

We need to declare war on mexico. The mexican government is actively supporting its citizens to invade the United States. The republicans want the cheap labor and the dems want the votes. Its sickening. We have been invaded and nothing is being done about it. :furious3:

[Tribesman]

We need to declare war on mexico.
Wait for the election Dave , then you can invade because you don't like their new left wing government .:idea2:

[Soulforged]

We need to declare war on mexico. The mexican government is actively supporting its citizens to invade the United States. The republicans want the cheap labor and the dems want the votes. Its sickening. We have been invaded and nothing is being done about it.
Perhaps this is just a joke, but refering to the recent thread "Who to invade next, the american people decide" or something like that, it's pretty out of place and only demostrates how much of imperialist some americans have, I seriously hope you're not representative of the majority in USA, it would be shameful and scary. Hey!! But look at the bright side you all have a new excuse to invade: When someone exports manpower into your country.:idea: :rolleyes:

[Tribesman]

This whole thing lowers my opinion of McCain considerably.
Their government is the mexican government, not the American government.
Blimey , we have been invaded and I didn't notice .
Oh well , not to worry , Fox or Ahern , both gobshites .
Or is it that the Mexicans were so uneducated they didn't realise that they were wearing the wrong T-shirts......“Senators Kennedy, John McCain, Hillary Clinton and Charles Schumer addressed the demonstrators, who wore white T-shirts with the slogan ‘Legalize the Irish.’”"
:dizzy2:

[Ice]

Perhaps this is just a joke, but refering to the recent thread "Who to invade next, the american people decide" or something like that, it's pretty out of place and only demostrates how much of imperialist some americans have, I seriously hope you're not representative of the majority in USA, it would be shameful and scary. Hey!! But look at the bright side you all have a new excuse to invade: When someone exports manpower into your country.:idea: :rolleyes:

I believe he was joking.

[Divinus Arma]

musssssssst resisssssssst dominating topiiiiiiiiiiiiiic..........

*breathes*


Oh dear GOD... an illegal immigration thread.....!


*breathes*


Not sure of I have an hour to kill doing this.....


*quickly leaves before head explodes*

[Redleg]

musssssssst resisssssssst dominating topiiiiiiiiiiiiiic..........

*breathes*


Oh dear GOD... an illegal immigration thread.....!


*breathes*


Not sure of I have an hour to kill doing this.....


*quickly leaves before head explodes*


You could always tape your head with 100 mile tape - that should trap the explosion within the tape preventing the world from being exposed to your brain cells when they atomize during the implosion process that will result from the confining of the explosion within the barrier imposed by the 100 mile tape around your head.


That or you will have an extremely loud and stinking passage of wind through your back side.

Edit: So go for it, you have absolutely nothing to lose, but time itself.

[Major Robert Dump]

Right now the state congress is looking to repeal a bogus tuition bill that was slipped onto another bill as an amendment. The bill gives people in the country ILLEGALLY in-state tuition at all oklahoma universities and lets them obtain state financial aid as well.

LOL an illegal immigrant could get in-state tuition costs and FA from the state, yet someone from nevada, or texas, or any other state in the USA would have to pay out of state tuition prices and would not be eligible for state financial aid until they lived here for a year. How pathetic

The "civil rights" groups are up in arms about its repeal, and the same guy leading the charge to repeal it is also on the forefront of the move to require recipients of welfare and other state services to PROVE they are citizens. I love it

[PanzerJaeger]

As a Legal immigrant to the US, I would support all this trash being rounded up and put in camps. That such horrible people could get the same priviledges that I do without paying taxes is a slap in the face to all of us who have had to go through the immigration process. Id rather pay a legal minority to do my gardening than a mexican. removal of inappropriate comment by Ser Clegane

[Divinus Arma]

As a Legal immigrant to the US, I would support all this trash being rounded up and put in camps. That such horrible people could get the same priviledges that I do without paying taxes is a slap in the face to all of us who have had to go through the immigration process. Id rather pay a legal minority to do my gardening than a mexican.
(Inappropriate part removed by Ser Clegane as in original post)

Panzer, I understand your frustation with this issue, and it is natural to get emotional over such an important topic. However, that last comment was just racist. I'm probably one of the most anti-illegal immigrant guys in the backroom, so you know if I say that you are ****ed up on this issue, then you probably are.

Comments like this make us immigration reformers look like racists and play to the false liberal media sterotype of racist sexist white old rich men.

Thanks for undermining yourself and this important effort. Please consider the effects of your comments, and I shall try to do the same on other issues that I feel strongly about.


Remeber, race is not the issue, nor has it ever been. It is an economic issue first and a cultural issue second, if at all.

Thanks for listening.

[Tribesman]

Divinus , since you are clearly not as screwed up on this issue as some stereotypical anti illegal immigrant people.
What do you think of HR4437 ?
Do you think it is a good piece of legislation or a bad piece of knee-jerk populism ?
Not of course that this law affects me as when I go somewhere to live and work I go through the legal process , but it does effect many of my friends .

[Divinus Arma]

Divinus , since you are clearly not as screwed up on this issue as some stereotypical anti illegal immigrant people.
What do you think of HR4437 ?
Do you think it is a good piece of legislation or a bad piece of knee-jerk populism ?
Not of course that this law affects me as when I go somewhere to live and work I go through the legal process , but it does effect many of my friends .

I think it was intended to send a strong message to the senate that the lower house is reeling from the issue. I think the message is finally getting through.

My answer for the solution rests in internal enforcement of employers, stronger internal enforcement of existing illegal immigrants, and wider opportunities for naturalization and work permits for people who use the appropriate government channels. I agree that there is a need for the labor, but we are denying these folks fair and competitive wages and we are denying the citizens of my country their due share from those wages.

There is some solid solutions in there, but it does not do enough to expand opportunities for re-entry.

[Tribesman]

I think it was intended to send a strong message ....
Yeah , thats the problem , is that piece legislation the message that is required , or more specifically is that piece of legislation effective , workable or practicable .
Or is it just shouting from the rooftops and swinging a sledgehammer .

[Major Robert Dump]

Government is inefficient, like any of that will ever happen. There are laws in place to punish mines for unsafe working conditions, yet they are underenforced and the fines weren't administered properly so it was actually cheaper to get fined than fix the problems. Lot of good that did the miners.

There are laws in place to prevent illegals from garnishing welfare, and laws in place to keep them from getting a state drivers license, and laws in place to require employers to require new employees to prove they are eligible to work in the United States...what more do we want here? None of this crap is enforced. Is the next move a national ID card with a bar code?

This will require lots of: police, buses, fences

[Divinus Arma]

MRD, then we can pay for the cops, buses, and fences with the fines imposed on employers and the tax money generated from expanded immigration opportunities.

[Reenk Roink]

I wish I was there and I gave those poor people guns so that they could take over parts of Texas by right of conquest...:shocked3:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I wish I was there and I gave those poor people guns so that they could take over parts of Texas by right of conquest...:shocked3:

you'd be helping those poor people commit suicide.:no:

[Reenk Roink]

I dunno...

We aren't doing a bang up job against ragged insurgents in Iraq...

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

in that case I think you'd need IEDs loads of cash from Saddam's regime, help from Iran and a steady flow of Mexican volunteers to take the place of the thousands of dead ones.

not just guns.

[Reenk Roink]

in that case I think you'd need IEDs loads of cash from Saddam's regime, help from Iran and a steady flow of Mexican volunteers to take the place of the thousands of dead ones.

not just guns.

IED's and other homemade devices, not to difficult to make...

Doubt there is much help from Iran, but then again, Iraq did have links to Al Qaeda and WMD's so who am I to question US Intel...

Steady flow of Mexican immigrants (sorry, "illegal aliens") are getting more and more frustrated...

~;)

[doc_bean]

I would support all this trash being rounded up and put in camps.


I imagine you would...

Next, let's get rid of those annoying Jews ! :help:

[Strike For The South]

IED's and other homemade devices, not to difficult to make...

Doubt there is much help from Iran, but then again, Iraq did have links to Al Qaeda and WMD's so who am I to question US Intel...

Steady flow of Mexican immigrants (sorry, "illegal aliens") are getting more and more frustrated...

~;)

So are the rednecks who already have the weapons and know how to use them

[Strike For The South]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/25/immigration/index.html

There flying Mexican flags. GOD DAMN MEXICAN FLAGS! They (edited for language by Ser Clegane) act like there entillited to something they have no right to. Now would be the perfect time except my goverment has no damn balls becuase of the "latin vote" They seem to forget were still the majority. Texas needs a new govener.

[Just A Girl]

Well if Your going to be a country Full of imgrants.
Which all americans are. (apart from native indian americans)
I dont see how you can complain about it.
Your no better than they are.

Same with the auzies..

[Strike For The South]

Well if Your going to be a country Full of imgrants.
Which all americans are. (apart from native indian americans)
I dont see how you can complain about it.
Your no better than they are.

Same with the auzies..

What a load of crap. These people sneak across the broder and all they bring is poverty drugs and they undermine our culture. Not to mention I dont think one has ever heard of a condom

[Just A Girl]

What a load of crap. These people sneak across the broder and all they bring is poverty drugs and they undermine our culture. Not to mention I dont think one has ever heard of a condom

Well just be glad there not traeding crapy muskets that will blow up in your face if you use them for corn.

And be thankfull that they dont come and shoot you all to get the crapy muskets back and get more corn.

[Ice]

Well just be glad there not traeding crapy muskets that will blow up in your face if you use them for corn.

And be thankfull that they dont come and shoot you all to get the crapy muskets back and get more corn.

Do you ever have a good argument?

[Reenk Roink]

Well just be glad there not traeding crapy muskets that will blow up in your face if you use them for corn.

And be thankfull that they dont come and shoot you all to get the crapy muskets back and get more corn.

The current "invaders" are much more courteous than the previous invaders...:tongue2:

EDIT: By the way, those invaders were first British... :shocked:

[makkyo]

A felony to be here illegally? What was it before? :dizzy2:

[KukriKhan]

Different US states have different standards, but for US federal law, a felony = an offense which, if convicted of violation, could lead to imprisonment for 366 days or more.

Before: a misdemeanor, at worst, though most cases never go to a criminal court, but a separate immigration court... which could order anything from release, to immediate deportation, to (less than a year's) imprisonment.

The act under consideration would mandate criminal prosecution. If passed, more money will be needed for fed courts in border jurisdictions, to handle the load of judicial infrastructure (cops, lawyers, judges, jails, prisons, etc).

[Tribesman]

A felony to be here illegally? What was it before?
It was a civil offence , not a Federal felony .

Does anyone understand the bit about making it an offence to give medical treatment to illegals ?

Since the children of illegals are not being stripped of citizenship in this bill then does that mean that children will be seperated from their parents , the parents are allowed to stay even though they are illegal , or that children will be deported even though they are citizens ?
Complicated stuff that last one isn't it .

Which is why this bill seems very much like a bad piece of legislation to pander to the populist ideas like ....These people sneak across the broder and all they bring is poverty drugs and they undermine our culture. Not to mention I dont think one has ever heard of a condom
So SFTS , since you clearly understand the bill and know that the mass of protesters are really protesting about nothing , could you explain the positve aspects of HR4437 , the practicalities of it , the costing of it , the application of all its elements ?
Or is it just a case of gah .....illegals .....kick 'em out ~;)

These assholes act like there entillited to something they have no right to.
Everyone has entitlements and rights , the idea of the bill is to define those rights and entitlements , it doesn't do a very good job of it though , which is why people are protesting .... in case you didn't know .

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I hurt myself laughing.

IF THEY ARE RIGHT THERE, SAYING THEY ARE ILLEGAL, HELLOOOOO!!!!

Take out the batons and handcuffs, bring in a firehose. We got ourselves some mass arresting to do.

And I say we ship them all to Panama.

[Papewaio]

Well if Your going to be a country Full of imgrants.
Which all americans are. (apart from native indian americans)
I dont see how you can complain about it.
Your no better than they are.

Same with the auzies..

Right, so by allowing mass legal immigration you lose the right to stop illegal immigration? :wall:

That is a load of nonsense.

"Since you allow lots of people to drive cars with a license you aren't allowed to stop people to drive cars without a license."

That would allow child rape using the same logic:

"Since lots of adults have sex with each other the government cannot stop people having sex with children." :dizzy2:

[Papewaio]

As a Legal immigrant to the US, I would support all this trash being rounded up and put in camps. That such horrible people could get the same priviledges that I do without paying taxes is a slap in the face to all of us who have had to go through the immigration process. Id rather pay a legal minority to do my gardening than a mexican. removal of inappropriate comment by Ser Clegane

So which version of camps?

The British ones in the Boer War? 20,000 plus dead and most of them children.

The American ones in WWII?, where you got interred based on ethnic group and then denied access to basic health and human rights?

Or the beloved German ones in WWII?, where mass production was used to provide mass exectutions based on ethnic group, mental disabilities or opposing political opinions. :juggle2:

=][=

Exactly how much taxes have you payed? Do minors get no rights too in the USA until they get taxed? :inquisitive:

=][=

Of course with your standards only thing a minority is good for is mowing your lawns. No way could you stand to see the majority do your gardening it would be too embarrassing for your ideals. :no:

[Tribesman]

IF THEY ARE RIGHT THERE, SAYING THEY ARE ILLEGAL, HELLOOOOO!!!!

Hmmm......Capo hasn't been following the subject at all :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Surprised ?:no:

[Major Robert Dump]

500,000 people all at once? Wow, I should take my lawnmower and walk around the neighborhood, I would make a killing. No wonder it took so long to get my filet o fish today.

[Crazed Rabbit]

PJ, you're being a bit harsh. They are, after all, people. But there are also, nonetheless, criminals. We should check for citizenship for access to all government services, and simply deport - quickly, and with a bare minimum of hassle - all illegal immigrants.

I'm annoyed by those who seem to think coming here illegally and being accepted is their right.


Well if Your going to be a country Full of imgrants.
Which all americans are. (apart from native indian americans)
I dont see how you can complain about it.
Your no better than they are.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Please. An immigrant is someone who moved here in their lifetime. Even if you say that you're an immigrant because of your ancestors, indians would be immigrants too, just from longer ago. Oh, and the important difference: my ancestors didn't come here illegally.

Crazed Rabbit

[Ser Clegane]

As a Legal immigrant to the US, I would support all this trash being rounded up and put in camps. That such horrible people could get the same priviledges that I do without paying taxes is a slap in the face to all of us who have had to go through the immigration process. Id rather pay a legal minority to do my gardening than a mexican.

I suppose any illegal Mexican immigrants who work for you or your family would be exempt from this "special treatment"?
Or did something happen in the meantime that changed your mind?

Mexicans are godsend (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=888077&highlight=mexicans#post888077)

[aw89]

Just a question here, isn't this the bill that says that if you look like you're an immigrant,
and can't give a police officer if you are stopped in a routine alcohol check a government issued ID,
a social security card, and a birth certificate. (You need two of those to prove it)
If you can't you got to sign a something that gives you 120 days to leave the country,
you can't come back for 10 years no matter what. By signing you also give away your right to go to court.
So, if you look like an immigrant and forgot to bring two of the IDs your basically stripped of you citizenship.
Oh, and if you don't sign it you are immediately deported without a trial or anything. (Im not 100% sure of all the details but this should be spot on)

Or is this for another bill? :sweatdrop:

EDIT: Oh yeah, calm down SFTS, you sound like a flaming racist.

[Just A Girl]

Simple fact of the matter is WE ARE ALL Imigrants.
Legal or not It makes no diference.

America STOLE that land So they really dont have a leg to stand on.
Go back to spain...

[Just A Girl]

Right, so by allowing mass legal immigration you lose the right to stop illegal immigration? :wall:

That is a load of nonsense.

"Since you allow lots of people to drive cars with a license you aren't allowed to stop people to drive cars without a license."

That would allow child rape using the same logic:

"Since lots of adults have sex with each other the government cannot stop people having sex with children." :dizzy2:


They are not good paradighms...

Cars are a machine that can KILL purley by their weight alone.
You must Prove that you are able to controll 2ton's of rolling steel becous otherwize you may just kill some people.

And yes Im sure You NEED a law to say dont have sex with children.
Becous EVERY 1 would do it otherwize...
I mean Please,

[Reenk Roink]

Well, the English took the land by right of Conquest, as did the French, Spanish, and Dutch, Russian, etc...

Then the English colonists (Americans) threw off colonial rule, and became their own sovereign nation. They took over more of America by treaties with France and Spain (much later Russia) and the rest of its southwestern domain by right of conquest against the Mexicans. Of course, there was the problem of Indian tribes, so Americans used right of conquest combined with use of biological warfare, massacres, and forced treaties that were broken later to essentially destroy the Indian population into submission (not that the colonial powers were more just in there conquest, just that the Americans had more contact with the natives).


And yes Im sure You NEED a law to say dont have sex with children.
Becous EVERY 1 would do it otherwize...
I mean Please,

:laugh3:

[InsaneApache]

I'm not an immigrant. Well I am. I was born in Lancashire but snuck across the border when no-one was looking and pinched a Yorkshiremans job.

Could have been worse. I could have taken a right turn in Manchester and ended up in Wales.

Back OT.

We have much the same problem in the UK. IIRC over 300, 000 illegals have disappeared after being caught by the immigration officials, who then gave them a slip of paper with an address on. They were to attend there so they could be deported. Hey guess what? None of them turned up. The immigration service is perplexed by this turn of events. After all old boy it's just not cricket.

[Just A Girl]

Oh yeah..
And i dont think ariving by boat.
Killing of the natives like the mayans and the incas.

Then just taking over would be considerd Legal imigration either.

[Just A Girl]

Wait a Minuet.
I see what your saying now..

If mexicans "or other imigrants" came to Killed all your children, Raped your wives, And stole all your crops.

They could stay becous there allowed to do that "right of conquest"

But if they come there dont reape your wives, Dont stall your crops, and dont murder your children.
There illigal imigrants so should be remooved.

Well i hope the Imigrants bear these rules in mind.

[Reenk Roink]

I guess it's considered legal by some and illegal by others.

For example, Crazed Rabbit says his ancestors came over legally. Perhaps the American government or white man would attest to that, but I don't think that the Native Americans would...

It's all perspective... :book:

[Reenk Roink]

Wait a Minuet.
I see what your saying now..

If mexicans "or other imigrants" came to Killed all your children, Raped your wives, And stole all your crops.

They could stay becous there allowed to do that "right of conquest"

But if they come there dont reape your wives, Dont stall your crops, and dont murder your children.
There illigal imigrants so should be remooved.

Well i hope the Imigrants bear these rules in mind.

When I say "right of Conquest" I am attesting a historical phenomenon. Humans all throughout history have went and conquered other lands. Now, how that conquerors went about it is very varied. You could have Saladin conquering Jerusalem and not harming any places of worship or civilians, and even freeing most of his prisoners of war, or you could have Genghis Khan burning down entire cities, disembowling people to search for valuables, and making pyramids out of skulls.

Now, in many American's eyes, especially back in the day, what they were doing was OK. But what the Mexicans are doing is not. It's all perspective...

[Just A Girl]

Yes and its those Star spangled Blinkers those guys wear that messes up their logic.

[Reenk Roink]

Yes and its those Star spangled Blinkers those guys wear that messes up their logic.

Well, people could technically call it "hypocrisy" or "double standards" but the fact is, humans generally are like that. Using the Chef and South Park event as an example, there were some (like the owners) who called out Chef for being a "hypocrite" for making fun of other religious groups, but getting mad when Scientology was mocked. But come on, that's how human nature is. It is selfish. I can completely understand why he would be comfortable mocking others beliefs but get pissed off when his own were ridiculed.

[makkyo]

If passed, more money will be needed for fed courts in border jurisdictions, to handle the load of judicial infrastructure (cops, lawyers, judges, jails, prisons, etc).

If not, it would have been used to give many of these people wellfare checks anyways.

[Just A Girl]

Look You guys went there STOLE the land.
Now your Pilaging the land for all its recources.

And this is fine.
??

Wake up.

You guys seem prety weak when it comes to morrals and fair treatment of humans.

Yes HUmans... cos thats what they are,
You call them imigrants and class them as a lower speicies to you.
Which makes you the lowest of the low.

Things like this are why people ask questions like.
why do people hate america.

And it makes me answer with things like.

Were all damn imigrants any way,
We are hera As Guests on this plante. And You have NO right to deny people acces to any part of a planet you do not own.
Nobody Owns a planet.
You may think you do but that just proves you ignorance.

Countrys are just pieces of land that reside on this planet.

and for you to think you have the right to stop people going where they like Is Arogance pure and true.

Hypocrytical americans Agrivate me.
Unfortunatly.
Thats the only type of american

[Major Robert Dump]

Just a question here, isn't this the bill that says that if you look like you're an immigrant,
and can't give a police officer if you are stopped in a routine alcohol check a government issued ID,
a social security card, and a birth certificate. (You need two of those to prove it)
If you can't you got to sign a something that gives you 120 days to leave the country,
you can't come back for 10 years no matter what. By signing you also give away your right to go to court.
So, if you look like an immigrant and forgot to bring two of the IDs your basically stripped of you citizenship.
Oh, and if you don't sign it you are immediately deported without a trial or anything. (Im not 100% sure of all the details but this should be spot on)

Or is this for another bill? :sweatdrop:

EDIT: Oh yeah, calm down SFTS, you sound like a flaming racist.


Thats not true. It would be just like not hav ing you insurance in your car, you could go to the station and fix it the next day. There are lots of people out there withou licenses who probably dont have any sort of ID cards, and SS cards dont have pictures on them so those are undependable, so they would need a database to verify SS #s. All Americans are required by law to have an SS, although that hasnt always been the case

This is one step away from requiring a national ID card, something I have mixed feelings on

Critics of the law are making it sound like every little brown guy without an ID is going to be rounded up and sent home. Trust me, while their are exceptions to identifyin aspects of illegal southerners, they are pretty easy to spot once you start talking to them. The problem I foresee is getting away from racial profiling and enforcing the law against more than just hispanics/arabs. It will need to be enforced against illegal whites and blacks as well

[Ser Clegane]

Please keep this discussion civil - there is no need for insulting groups of patrons or even people of a specific nationality.

In addition I would like to point out that illegal immigration is not a problem that is an exclusive US issue - therefore it is somewhat cheeky to suggest that the issues that some US citizens have with illegal immigration are a reason to "hate" America

[doc_bean]

This is one step away from requiring a national ID card, something I have mixed feelings on


We've had those here for as long as I can remember, and besides having to pay for them (5€ every 5 years, might be more expensive now that they're using chips) I've never really seen the big downside. You can also use them as a passport in a lot of countries (EU ones at least, a couple of others too i think) which saves you the hassle of actually getting a real passport.

I thought that in the US the drivers license was used pretty much the same as an ID ?

[Crazed Rabbit]

and for you to think you have the right to stop people going where they like Is Arogance pure and true.

I guess you wouldn't mind me going into your house, helping myself to your food, etc., then?

Bah. Hardly any point in arguing with you.

Crazed Rabbit

[makkyo]

Look You guys went there STOLE the land.

really? I don't remember being alive 300 years ago. Don't try blaming me for what my ancestors did.

You make sweeping generalizations about Americans being ignorant but at the same time you say we came from all over the world? Hypocritical we are? Somebody's calling the kettle black here. :shame:

[Papewaio]

I say blame the Welsh, If they had stopped the English from conquouring them first then the English couldn't have conquored anyone second and it would have stopped the English from conquoring 1/4 of the world. :inquisitive:

So blame it on the Welsh for not interceding in the first place. The naughty naughty Welsh. :laugh4:

[Scurvy]

Please keep this discussion civil - there is no need for insulting groups of patrons or even people of a specific nationality.
a

not very nice to the welsh :2thumbsup:


I think the problem with illegal immigrants is simply that you cant stop them, if you live in a "not very nice" country then your always going to look for a nicer place to live, so although i can see the issues it brings to the economy/culture of the recieving country, i always end up being sympathetic :juggle2:
i think its also important to remember no-one has any more right than anyone else to live on a piece of land (although you might disagree)

[Kaiser of Arabia]

IF THEY ARE RIGHT THERE, SAYING THEY ARE ILLEGAL, HELLOOOOO!!!!

Hmmm......Capo hasn't been following the subject at all :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Surprised ?:no:
I'm just proving the point :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I mean, we need some comic releif in threads like these.

[Papewaio]

not very nice to the welsh :2thumbsup:


Pape's approx ethnic background by great grandparents:

:wales: :sweden: :england: :northernireland: :scotland: :england: :sweden: :wales:

[Scurvy]

:2thumbsup:

[The Black Ship]

All countries have the duty and right to establish immigration policy. The laws of the United States vis a vis immigration are no more onerous than most others ( try becoming a Kiwi from the States if you have no unique skill set).

The tripe Just A Girl is spouting is totally offensive, irrelevant to the issue, and short-sighted in historical perpective. The US did not invent nation building.

The attitude of illegals is "Yes, we cheated getting here but you can't hold that against us". Well... why not? Doesn't it show that they are people willing to bend/break the rules for their benefit? How are we citizens to know where an illegal immigrant will next draw the line at their willingness to comply to the laws of the US? Cheaters cannot be rewarded for cheating,

It is difficult enough to get our legal citizens to comply with the laws of this country. Adding millions more that have shown a predisposition to lawlessness is suicidal.

[Reenk Roink]

Well, I've just got to say, Shambles is not the only one with a hardheaded, shortsighted view on this issue...

[Redleg]

Well, I've just got to say, Shambles is not the only one with a hardheaded, shortsighted view on this issue...

He is just the most obvious. :dizzy2:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Pape, I've heard that argument before, apparently you can blame everything the English ever did on the Welsh for not slapping the English about after Vortigern did some stupid stuff.
:no:
I blame Cadwallon for dying early and Urien for getting assassinated but that's just my opinion.:furious3:

Actually, I think all the English should leave. Give me my island back. :laugh4:

actually I'm serious. :skull:

:laugh4:

:2thumbsup:

[Scurvy]

All countries have the duty and right to establish immigration policy. The laws of the United States vis a vis immigration are no more onerous than most others ( try becoming a Kiwi from the States if you have no unique skill set).

The tripe Just A Girl is spouting is totally offensive, irrelevant to the issue, and short-sighted in historical perpective. The US did not invent nation building.

The attitude of illegals is "Yes, we cheated getting here but you can't hold that against us". Well... why not? Doesn't it show that they are people willing to bend/break the rules for their benefit? How are we citizens to know where an illegal immigrant will next draw the line at their willingness to comply to the laws of the US? Cheaters cannot be rewarded for cheating,

It is difficult enough to get our legal citizens to comply with the laws of this country. Adding millions more that have shown a predisposition to lawlessness is suicidal.

but then you ask: why do people deserve a better life by virtue of where they were born? They have no option but to disobey the laws as most dont earn enough to live off without averting to crime...

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Look You guys went there STOLE the land.
Under that logic France STOLE Alcase-Lorraine (or as I call it, Elsaß-Lothrigen) from Germany. Now, while I beleive AL should be a part of germany because of Self-Determination, I do not think France stole it, just took in in an unfair peace treaty.

Also, under that logic, Poland and the USSR STOLE Pomerania and Silsea from Prussia. England STOLE Scotland from the Scots, and Ireland from the Irish. Russia STOLE God-knows what from the Kazacks and other eastern peoples. The Turks STOLE Byzantium from the Byzantines. Et cetera, et cetera.

[Kralizec]

Elaß-Lothrigen

Kaiser, if you're trying to sound knowledgable about German by using the Ringel-S, at least try to spell the word you're inserting it in properly. Otherwise you'll just fail miserably.

Just a piece of advice.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Kaiser, if you're trying to sound knowledgable about German by using the Ringel-S, at least try to spell the word you're inserting it in properly. Otherwise you'll just fail miserably.

Just a piece of advice.
I can't even spell anything in English, how do you expect me to spell Elsaß-Lothringen correctly?

[The Black Ship]

but then you ask: why do people deserve a better life by virtue of where they were born? They have no option but to disobey the laws as most dont earn enough to live off without averting to crime...

In Mexico? Or is it your position that since they've illegally immigrated that they are entitled to convert to crime in the US?

If so, why in the hell should we allow them to stay?

[Tribesman]

Just out of interest (after following this same topic on another forum ), of the people here who are either just complaining about illegals , or complaining about the people who are protesting about the legislation concerning illegals .

How many of you have actually examined the legislation that these protests are about ?

[Redleg]

Just out of interest (after following this same topic on another forum ), of the people here who are either just complaining about illegals , or complaining about the people who are protesting about the legislation concerning illegals .

How many of you have actually examined the legislation that these protests are about ?

Seen a little on it, but have not read the actual legislation as of yet. What I have seen in the media is spin from both sides of the issue.

Personally I have absolutely no problem with how an individual comes to the United States, as long as they are productive members of the work force and do not strain the legal systems of the states. Even knowning that they came into the country illegally - does not make for an automatic reject in my opinion if they are doing something productive - ie holding a job.

Force the employeer to sponsor the immigrant and begin the visa process. With some fines for both - just to ensure that both understand that they violated the law.


Making illegal immigrantion a felony however is going to far - enforcement of current immigrantion laws is what is needed before new laws are drafted. If the Federal government and state governments are unwilling to enforce the current laws - new laws make absolutely no sense and are nothing but a cheap political stunt by the politicians.

EDIT TO ADD: And from the prespective that I am seeing it from - those who are attempting to advocate less enforcement and greater rights for illegal immigrants are barking up the same wrong tree as those who are advocating stronger and tougher immigrantion laws and enforcement.

I rather see politicians campaigning for the correct enforcement of the current laws at all levels. Politicians and police in the local and state levels activitly enforcing the current laws. One can not tell if the current laws are workable if no-one enforces the current law.

Shame on Congress, Shame on the states, shame on the politicans for avoiding the issue by caving into populist law making versus enforcement of the current law.


Hmm on a side note: I wonder what the illegals think about the current requirments in the state of Texas to get a state drivers license. Hell I had to help my brother get his documentation together to get a valid Texas Driver's license and when he moved down here. He only had his social security card and his valid Oklahoma driver's license. Texas requires a second form of ID if besides the valid license from another state. If legal immigrants and born citizens must meet the requirment - then I believe everyone should be able to meet the same requirement.

A lot of what the protests are about seems to be primarily spin, and attempts to legalize their immigrantion after the fact, not attempting to ensure that the current laws are adequately enforced and the same standards applied throughout the legal system regarding immigrantion.

[Tribesman]

Cheers for the response Redleg :2thumbsup:

Where are all the posters who were so vocal in their support of this bill and their condemnation of the protests ????:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Oh well since its only Red then I might as well disagree with him ~;)
You is wrong .......a cheap political stunt by the politicians.

It will be an expensive cheap political stunt by the politicians .:2thumbsup:

[Shaka_Khan]

We need to declare war on mexico. The mexican government is actively supporting its citizens to invade the United States. The republicans want the cheap labor and the dems want the votes. Its sickening. We have been invaded and nothing is being done about it. :furious3:
~:joker:

[Redleg]

Cheers for the response Redleg :2thumbsup:

Where are all the posters who were so vocal in their support of this bill and their condemnation of the protests ????:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Oh well since its only Red then I might as well disagree with him ~;)
You is wrong .......a cheap political stunt by the politicians.

It will be an expensive cheap political stunt by the politicians .:2thumbsup:

I hope it comes expensive in the costing of votes come the next election.

Until the current immigrantion laws are enforced by all law enforcement agencies at the Federal, State, and community levels - new laws are not needed. Hell most of the current laws would most likely work if they were enforced correctly. (hell not even correctly - just enforced would probably make do.)

[Kralizec]

We need to declare war on mexico. The mexican government is actively supporting its citizens to invade the United States. The republicans want the cheap labor and the dems want the votes. Its sickening. We have been invaded and nothing is being done about it.

:joker

Like Dev said it it's funny, but it's true. The Mexican government does nothing to discourage emigration, on the contrary actually. It's much easier to just let the most dissatisfied people go elsewhere then deal with poverty and other problems.

And there have been incidents in where Mexican armed gangs crossed the US border.

[Redleg]

Like Dev said it it's funny, but it's true. The Mexican government does nothing to discourage emigration, on the contrary actually. It's much easier to just let the most dissatisfied people go elsewhere then deal with poverty and other problems.

And there have been incidents in where Mexican armed gangs crossed the US border.

You mean not just incidents of Mexican Armed gangs - but the Mexican Army which from all reports I have read concerning the units along the border could be functioning in two roles - one as the constituted military of Mexico, and one as an armed gang conducting criminal activities along the border to include running people, guns, and drugs across into the United States.:wall:

[Xiahou]

Just out of interest (after following this same topic on another forum ), of the people here who are either just complaining about illegals , or complaining about the people who are protesting about the legislation concerning illegals .

How many of you have actually examined the legislation that these protests are about ?As far as what's coming out of the senate, I like Frist's proposal more than what the Judiciary comittee has put forth. Realistically, I recognize the need for a guestworker program and some path to deal with current illegals- but we need to start with smart enforcement, which Frist seems to take more seriously.

I think building of fences should be very narrow and targetted- the idea of building a fence across the entire border is just silly. There are much better ways to control the border than a fence.

[Major Robert Dump]

The government of Peru educates soon-to-be migrates on the benefits of the US welfare system. I know this because I dated a woman who was 4 months off the boat from Peru, she had baby fever, and she knew more about welfare and medicaid than I do. She told me everything she learned she learned from the embassy and customs counselors in Peru.

The legislation wasn't that bad, and the time frame was more than generous.

Now, suddenly, all the legislators have the same opinion. It's the same strategy as being absent for a vote on a controversial issue, as now they are removing individual accountability come election day and hoping we will all forget. This is total bull****, and the only way to overcome it is for americans to put down the cheetos and go vote for once, and call the bluff of all the hispanic lobbies who are posturing to punish elected officials who act against them

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I found some pics (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004848.htm) from the protest on the horribly biased blog of Michelle Malkin. I don't think the pics are biased, though.

Here's a few of my favs:

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/aztlan005.jpg
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/aztlan004.jpg

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I personally liked these:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/pt/slideshows/2006/03/protest2_2006/
especially slide 4

[Strike For The South]

:no: This makes my blood boil

[Major Robert Dump]

I liked the one with the kid getting arrested. They should do that more

[Divinus Arma]

If they love MExico so much, then they should all go back. Especially these stupid kids who are just looking for something to do. I'm glad to see that our assimilation process has failed. It makes me really sad to see the girl waving the American flag because she is Mexican-American get shouted down by her peers.

[Major Robert Dump]

Actually, Div, the assimilation process has worked:

You have people adopting the entitlement mentality, using the rights of citizens to defend said mentality, pretending to hold some uber grasp on political outcomes vs politicians who suffer no accountability either way, all the while pretending the country they invited themselves to was built upon their backs, all the while sucking the welfare tit they nary contribute to because, ya know, they dont pay any goddamn federal taxes..

Classic victimology, they will fit right in. Welcome to america, Pedro! The Humvee dealer is 3 miles down and to the left!

[Scurvy]

Actually, Div, the assimilation process has worked:

You have people adopting the entitlement mentality, using the rights of citizens to defend said mentality, pretending to hold some uber grasp on political outcomes vs politicians who suffer no accountability either way, all the while pretending the country they invited themselves to was built upon their backs, all the while sucking the welfare tit they nary contribute to because, ya know, they dont pay any goddamn federal taxes..

Classic victimology, they will fit right in. Welcome to america, Pedro! The Humvee dealer is 3 miles down and to the left!

gah, surely if they become legal they have to pay taxes etc. like everyone else? and so do contribute to the country....

EDIT: I dont know what assimilation means?

[Major Robert Dump]

You miss the point entirely amigo. They arent legal now, they dont pay federal taxes, and when someone tells them there will be laws made to ensure they are legal and paying taxes they take to the street like little girls who want to play in the PGA tour with a handicap.

Giving them "amnesty" only encourages more to come, and is like saying all the illegal employment and damage done is water under the bridge, when in fact its not. And even with amnesty, id be willing to bet plenty still wouldnt declare citizenship because:

A: they dont want to pay taxes and

B: they wouldnt be allowed here to begin with because they didnt meet the criteria for citizenship, like, um, learning basic english and having a clean criminal record

Tell you what, I'm all for amnesty BUT THEY HAVE TO PAY BACK TAXES, LIKE THAT TIME I ACCIDENMTALLY UNDERSTATED MY INCOME TO THE IRS BY $900 WHEN I WAS 22 AND WORKING 6 JOBS, AND THEN THE IRS SENDS ME A LETTER 7 YEARS LATER SAYING I OWE THEM $1400 IN LATE FEES AND INTEREST.

Deal?

[Scurvy]

B: they wouldnt be allowed here to begin with because they didnt meet the criteria for citizenship, like, um, learning basic english and having a clean criminal record

Tell you what, I'm all for amnesty BUT THEY HAVE TO PAY BACK TAXES, LIKE THAT TIME I ACCIDENMTALLY UNDERSTATED MY INCOME TO THE IRS BY $900 WHEN I WAS 22 AND WORKING 6 JOBS, AND THEN THE IRS SENDS ME A LETTER 7 YEARS LATER SAYING I OWE THEM $1400 IN LATE FEES AND INTEREST.

Deal?

acually that doesnt sound like a bad idea (although how you would regulate it i have no idea) and then you would have to come up with more uncomprimising/enforcable immigration laws (although i wish there was unlimited space in the nicer countries in the world, their isnt)

finding a criteria for citizenship is difficult, i think language and criminal record (although that sometimes might be misleading, almost everyone has at least one thing in their file) are most important, but i think knowledge of the the history and traditions of a country are secondary (many natives dont know it either)

I still dont know what assimilation means?

[Redleg]

I still dont know what assimilation means?

A simple definition would be to assimilate is to become part of.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

It makes me really sad to see the girl waving the American flag because she is Mexican-American get shouted down by her peers.

I enjoyed seeing her display her immense cojones (but not literally of course).

[Scurvy]

A simple definition would be to assimilate is to become part of.

cheers :2thumbsup:

[yesdachi]

Becoming legal and starting to pay taxes is good, paying back taxes is better, but don’t forget, there is nearly 12 million illegals here that if granted “amnesty” and allowed citizenship would also get the benefits of social security and other retiree benefits when they get old enough and not only have they never paid taxes, they have never paid social security either. Adding 12 million (many of which are middle aged and would qualify at a similar time, ala baby boomers) more people to our already taxed social security program is going to have serious repercussions in a few years.

[Tribesman]

The government of Peru educates soon-to-be migrates on the benefits of the US welfare system.
Now that is really interesting :inquisitive:
She told me everything she learned she learned from the embassy and customs counselors in Peru.

Wow Peru has an embassy in Peru .....bollox , you get the same information in any country ....by going to the US embassy and speaking to the US immigration councilors .
Or you can go online to the US government and get all the information that that government gives people who wish to emigrate .


You miss the point entirely amigo. They arent legal now, they dont pay federal taxes,
Really ????then what the hell is an ITIN number for ? It certainly isn't for claiming welfare is it .

[Don Corleone]

Really ????then what the hell is an ITIN number for ? It certainly isn't for claiming welfare is it .

What part of 'undocumented' are you having troubles with? They only get ITIN numbers if they are actually recorded in the system (legal immigrants or illegal immigrants that got a pass on the last round of amnesty). Do you think the first stop after they sneak across the desert is to go find the nearest Federal Building and request an ITIN?

[Tribesman]

What part of 'undocumented' are you having troubles with? They only get ITIN numbers if they are actually recorded in the system (legal immigrants or illegal immigrants that got a pass on the last round of amnesty).
What part of the Dept of the Treasury rules concerning ITIN numbers are you having trouble with ?
Immigarant status ....legal , illegal , or amnestied ...has absolutely no bearing on the issue of ITIN numbers .
Whassup Don , don't you know any illegals that actually declare their income ?

[Don Corleone]

What part of 'undocumented' are you having troubles with? They only get ITIN numbers if they are actually recorded in the system (legal immigrants or illegal immigrants that got a pass on the last round of amnesty).
What part of the Dept of the Treasury rules concerning ITIN numbers are you having trouble with ?
Immigarant status ....legal , illegal , or amnestied ...has absolutely no bearing on the issue of ITIN numbers .
Whassup Don , don't you know any illegals that actually declare their income ?

No, as a matter of fact, I don't. I guarantee you that Mexicans coming across the border aren't registering with the IRS upon arrival so that even though they didn't respect our immigration laws, they can happily pay their taxes. If you think they are, I've got some property I'd like to sell you.

Maybe illegal immigrants in Ireland register to pay taxes (would make sense, as you're an island and the only way in is through official ports, maritime or air). I imagine your illegal aliens are of the variety 'here on a visa and violate the terms' or 'stayed too long'. The vast majority of the people we're talking about here in the US crossed the ~2000 mile border we share at an unauthorized crossing point. Never recorded, no paperwork.

[Byzantine Prince]

It is very difficult to be a legal immigrant for almost every developed country. If it was as simplea s registering then the everyone from a 3rd world country would immigrate to America, and Europe. The reason that is not happening is tight border controls and limited legal immigration. So what are the Mexicans supposed to do?

Ok so if they think that they are better off in America doing $1 an hour work, then why are you all bothered? if you have emplyment problems maybe you should get more people in college through better funded education instead of pumping the military with your crazy campigns in the Middle East.

[AntiochusIII]

It is very difficult to be a legal immigrant for almost every developed country. If it was as simplea s registering then the everyone from a 3rd world country would immigrate to America, and Europe. The reason that is not happening is tight border controls and limited legal immigration. So what are the Mexicans supposed to do?

Ok so if they think that they are better off in America doing $1 an hour work, then why are you all bothered? if you have emplyment problems maybe you should get more people in college through better funded education instead of pumping the military with your crazy campigns in the Middle East.Being a legal immigrant myself, I find it hard to get here in the first place (registered for immigration while I was like, four years old--came here a teenager), but worth it. The Mexicans I'd understand why they want to come, and I'd understand why many Americans don't want them to come. I could, of course, try to formulate a plan; why not, I am as intelligent and open-minded as any--but I am far too lazy to bother.

First of all, limited legal immigration is America's decision. America has the sovereignty to decide who's coming in and who's not, at least for a long while to come. And I could see it as perfectly justified.

An angle to take, though, is how America completely screwed the strength and stability of the local Latin American countries, politically and economically, and thus also affecting the countries socially, throughout history since their Imperialism until, like, the end of the Cold War. From the "Panama Revolution," to Allende vs Pinochet, to the Contra, among others. And much earlier with the Filibusters but that was too far back and wasn't strong enough to count the effect. A few might take a position that this is America's crime and must be properly redressed (the right word?). This, however, is not my position.

Second, blame the damn politicians for everything wrong. I'm quite of a mind that such a scapegoat would, though rarely this happens, be the right one to blame this time. Like the worthless war...

Third, colleges are expensive, but to me it would seem that those with enough determination can get in. Oh well, America still hold some of--if not many of--the world's best universities. The lower public education sucks, though, at least where I live. The system is incompetent at best. They should've been reforming that, and not by adding pointless tests to bother my time, either.

Last, my opinion on the issue is mixed. For me, the worthless cries from both sides--the protesting illegals and the vigilante-like "be tough" crowd--are all the same, pure populism. A solution must be found, but a balanced, moderate solution it should be--and it should also cover every angle possible, including, if not especially, actual enforcement.

[Tribesman]

I guarantee you that Mexicans coming across the border aren't registering with the IRS upon arrival so that even though they didn't respect our immigration laws, they can happily pay their taxes. If you think they are, I've got some property I'd like to sell you.

So if they are not registering then what is this BS some people are on about with them claiming welfare ? not that an ITIN will get you welfare ?

Maybe illegal immigrants in Ireland register to pay taxes (would make sense, as you're an island and the only way in is through official ports, maritime or air).
Last time I looked we had a land border , but maybe thats finally been sorted out now .:shrug:

I imagine your illegal aliens are of the variety 'here on a visa and violate the terms' or 'stayed too long'.
An illegal is an illegal is it not ?
What variety you have is those who just want to make a quick buck and bugger off back home and those that want to stay but don't do the proper paperwork before they enter .

Last, my opinion on the issue is mixed. For me, the worthless cries from both sides--the protesting illegals and the vigilante-like "be tough" crowd--are all the same, pure populism. A solution must be found, but a balanced, moderate solution it should be--and it should also cover every angle possible, including, if not especially, actual enforcement.
Woohoo ...Antiochus cuts through all the crap and actually gets with the issue :2thumbsup: something that only Red and Xiahou seem to have really done .

[AntiochusIII]

So if they are not registering then what is this BS some people are on about with them claiming welfare ? not that an ITIN will get you welfare ?Just to point out, there are laws in the United States along the lines of: "if you come into emergency rooms with emergency, then you will be served no matter you're a Martian or American, or an anonymous guy with beards, whatever."

The law has its purpose--very clear, in fact--but it has been used "differently" from what it was originally intended.

Also, you don't need an ID card to buy small stuff with cash, like groceries or the local McDonalds. But then they would be paying taxes while buying stuff, so that's okay for me.

And there are also many complications, and Mexican lobbyist groups at work. Those I do not know so much detail about, probably the Don can help.

But I really have no special hatred for them like some of us around here do. I guess I'm just not patriotic enough for them. Then again, I have never found any external artificial BS worth screaming, rioting, burning flags, killing, and dying over.

[Tribesman]

Just to point out, there are laws in the United States along the lines of: "if you come into emergency rooms with emergency, then you will be served no matter you're a Martian or American, or an anonymous guy with beards, whatever."

But isn't there something in this new legislation that makes it an offense to treat illegals ?

[Byzantine Prince]

Being a legal immigrant myself, I find it hard to get here in the first place (registered for immigration while I was like, four years old--came here a teenager), but worth it.
The waiting times is the least of these hypothetical immigrants' problems.


First of all, limited legal immigration is America's decision. America has the sovereignty to decide who's coming in and who's not, at least for a long while to come. And I could see it as perfectly justified.
Quite obvious, a state inherently has sovereignty. I was not challenging that fact. There is futility in putting a country's sovereignty over people's right to a better life.

[Major Robert Dump]

The government of Peru educates soon-to-be migrates on the benefits of the US welfare system.
Now that is really interesting :inquisitive:
She told me everything she learned she learned from the embassy and customs counselors in Peru.

Wow Peru has an embassy in Peru .....bollox , you get the same information in any country ....by going to the US embassy and speaking to the US immigration councilors .
Or you can go online to the US government and get all the information that that government gives people who wish to emigrate .


You miss the point entirely amigo. They arent legal now, they dont pay federal taxes,
Really ????then what the hell is an ITIN number for ? It certainly isn't for claiming welfare is it .


No, genius, Peru has a F***** ambassador team in the united states that migrates can call and use their national ID number to speak with someone who will give them information if they need help with something. I dialed the number for her on my phone, you can get this information on their federal website, and you still miss the point -- the point being that the entire ordeal is being hastened and made less complicated through the help of their homeland, so essentially it would be like my government making a travel brochure telling me how to go to Canada and live for free off its taxpayers.

Oh, I could find out on my own how to live for free in Canada off its taxpayers, but it would be all the easier to get it done if I got a little push from uncle sam.

[Major Robert Dump]

What part of 'undocumented' are you having troubles with? They only get ITIN numbers if they are actually recorded in the system (legal immigrants or illegal immigrants that got a pass on the last round of amnesty).
What part of the Dept of the Treasury rules concerning ITIN numbers are you having trouble with ?
Immigarant status ....legal , illegal , or amnestied ...has absolutely no bearing on the issue of ITIN numbers .
Whassup Don , don't you know any illegals that actually declare their income ?



Do you seriously think every employer registers every employee and pays taxes on them? Do you have any earthly idea how easy it is for me to start a small business, and then go find some blokes who will let me pay them under the table, give them no benefits, and they wont sue me for workers comp or treating them like crap because they happen to be illegal, and dont want to draw the authorities attention to them? Its even easier to contract out to one of the "businesses" and reap the fruits of the labor because now you are indirectly involved, and if anyone gets busted its gonna be the other guy? The Justice Department may finew wal-mart half a million dollars, but they dont spend to much effort going after Garys Concrete Sawing, and if they do the fine is a bitch slap, which can be averted sometimes by declaring commercial bankruptcy and starting a new business all over again.

Departments of Human services dont report to the INS. If a woman goes into a DHS office with a hungry baby, they are going to be fed and taken care of on a local level, with funding provided by the county, state and grants from the federal government. Illegals pay state and city taxes in the form of sales tax, although there are plenty of those even they skirt. But they dont pay federal or social security, and by god thats what people are pissed about.

This is not rocket science, we are poised to break the human services system in america, and we will have to choose between the young and the old, and I dont really want to do that.

[Tribesman]

No, genius, Peru has a F***** ambassador team in the united states that migrates can call and use their national ID number to speak with someone who will give them information if they need help with something. I dialed the number for her on my phone, you can get this information on their federal website, and you still miss the point -- the point being that the entire ordeal is being hastened and made less complicated through the help of their homeland, so essentially it would be like my government making a travel brochure telling me how to go to Canada and live for free off its taxpayers.

Well then why not ask your government about moving to another country , they will tell you everything you need to know , and when you are in that country you can ask your embassy in case you have forgotten anything .
I miss the point ????what point ....that governments supply their citizens with information if they ask for it (apart from some repressive regimes) .

Do you seriously think every employer registers every employee and pays taxes on them? Do you have any earthly idea how easy it is for me to start a small business, and then go find some blokes who will let me pay them under the table, give them no benefits, and they wont sue me for workers comp or treating them like crap because they happen to be illegal, and dont want to draw the authorities attention to them?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
No dump .....I have no idea how easy it is .

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Tribes - MRD is saying their government is showing them how to break the law in another country. This isn't about asking your government for help in legally moving to another country.

[Watchman]

Given what LatAm adminstrations tend to be like, there's actually a perverse kind of very logical consistency in that.

[The Black Ship]

So you're saying there's a Latin American conspiracy?::inquisitive:

To what end?

Should we be concerned? Should we attempt to combat their fiendish plan? Should we attempt to control our borders from the corrupting influence of illegal activity? Do we have the right?

Gee, what do Latin American countries do in situations like our?

[Watchman]

So you're saying there's a Latin American conspiracy?::inquisitive: Conspiracy, schmonspiracy. Nah. Just that given LatAm governements tend to be bywords for corruption and graft, and the states virtually incapable of enforcing even a portion of their own laws, it actually seems rather logical of them to use illegal emigration as a way to vent excess population. Actually instructing them in ways of circumventing the legislation of the target country (should that be a fact and not just a nationalist hyperbole) seems like a very logical follow-up.

Mind you, I wouldn't put it past them to regard it as a sort of tit-for-tat payback for the assorted oh-so-beneficial "trade agreements" and suchlike the Big Brother of the North keeps force-feeding them and which AFAIK don't exactly help reduce the number of unhappy people wanting to emigrate...

A sort of "you deal with them then" idea, you know ? Just a thought.

[Tribesman]

Tribes - MRD is saying their government is showing them how to break the law in another country.
If that is what he is trying to say then he is wrong , they are not telling them how to break the law , they are telling them what they can legally obtain and how to obtain it . and guess what , the embassy is legally obliged to provide the information .
So if that is what MRD is saying it is just a load of hype .

[Soulforged]

Conspiracy, schmonspiracy. Nah. Just that given LatAm governements tend to be bywords for corruption and graft, and the states virtually incapable of enforcing even a portion of their own laws, it actually seems rather logical of them to use illegal emigration as a way to vent excess population. Actually instructing them in ways of circumventing the legislation of the target country (should that be a fact and not just a nationalist hyperbole) seems like a very logical follow-up.As Tribesman said they've a duty to show the actual composition of national and international law. Beyond that I can assure you that there's no conspiracy, and it doesn't seem so logical to do so when you consider that every man that escapes his nation will be a hand less to do a certain job and add to the internal product. Is not a good policy, unless you want to get rid of people who commit crimes, but then again such people will often avoid authorities.

Mind you, I wouldn't put it past them to regard it as a sort of tit-for-tat payback for the assorted oh-so-beneficial "trade agreements" and suchlike the Big Brother of the North keeps force-feeding them and which AFAIK don't exactly help reduce the number of unhappy people wanting to emigrate...At least there's someone that agrees with me in that the trade agreements are not exactly equitative.:2thumbsup:

[The Black Ship]

75 percent of CAFTA imports and 99% of CAFTA agricultural imports already enter the United States duty free, so yes Soulforged I'll agree the current trade situation in CAFTA countries is inequitable.

[Major Robert Dump]

Tribes - MRD is saying their government is showing them how to break the law in another country.
If that is what he is trying to say then he is wrong , they are not telling them how to break the law , they are telling them what they can legally obtain and how to obtain it . and guess what , the embassy is legally obliged to provide the information .
So if that is what MRD is saying it is just a load of hype .


My girlfriend was a legal migrant worker, she was taxed, and even if she werent the embassy and the channels of information from home would provide information to help. So no, I'm not necessarily saying the governments of south america are showing them how to break the law, because they are using the dont ask dont tell policy.

While you may not think theres anything wrong with it, Tribe, and perhaps the only reason I do is because I live here, the idea of a nation encouraging its population to go to another country -- however the means -- and telling them how great they will be taken care of is wrong. I think if high schools in America encouraged kids to move to France because France has more user-friendly unemployment laws, people of France would likely get ticked since the people of France are the ones who bear the taxation burden.

She wanted to have kids, man. When I said we weren't financially ready for kids, she told me that it was okay because medicaid and foodstamps would help, and went on about this friend and that friend who did it. It's bad enough having Americans thinking that way, but when immigrants have that mentaility the moment they show up we take this thing to an entire new level.

[Tribesman]

So major , what is the issue then ?
She had information that she was entitled to get , just like anyone can get information that they are entitled to .

It's bad enough having Americans thinking that way, but when immigrants have that mentaility the moment they show up we take this thing to an entire new level.
Ah I see , its bad enough if Americans know their laws and entitlements , but its even worse if people who move to America know their laws and entitlements .
So in that case any immigrant in Ireland should certainly not be told about child benefit payments , they certainly shouldn't be told about tax credits and most definately shouldn't be told about anything else concerning the laws of the land that they are living in and their obligations and entitlements .:no: Actually since it is apperantly bad enough if the natives know perhaps it is an idea to make sure that no one knows the laws of the land .:dizzy2:

[Major Robert Dump]

Yeah, dude, going to a country to live off The backs of others is uber mensch. I mean what was I thinking, I love raise other peoples kids!!!!1111

[Tribesman]

Yeah, dude, going to a country to live off The backs of others is uber mensch. I mean what was I thinking, I love raise other peoples kids!!!!1111
Well clearly you were not thinking , thats the problem , you take a serious issue and just come out with meaningless crap .
Don't worry though , it is quite common when it comes to immigration issues .
People spout meaningless crap about immigration all the time . This bill and the protests for and against it are prime examples .

[Ser Clegane]

I would appreciate if criticism of other people's posts would adhere to certain "standards".

I noted that "bullshit" and "crap" - "enhanced" by the use of various adjectives - has again become increasingly popular lately.

Certainly most patrons are able to express their disagreement in more appropriate ways?

[Tribesman]

I would appreciate if criticism of other people's posts would adhere to certain "standards".

OK . Is this any better .
Implying that a government by fulfilling its legal obligations to its citizens is somehow wrong is misguiged baseless rubbish that has absolutely no bearing on the subject and shows a lack of thought about the issue .
Ignoring the fact that in the same situation any government does the same shows the lack of thought that was put into the comment .
Complaining that people are willing to claim what they are entitled to shows that people don't like people getting their entitlements .

[Major Robert Dump]

Lol the fact that you use the word "citizen" followed by the word "entitled" shows perhaps you dont understand the argument.

I dont mind if people come over, as long as they sign in. I dont mind if people use the welfare system for what its intended, as long as they sign in. I can deal with the fact that welfare abuses occur and it can cause an entitlement mentailty to be passed from generation to generation, as long as the people doing it are taxpaying americans.

So, what is it you dont understand? The millions of illegals? The workers being paid illegally and not paying taxes on their income? The people who will not declare citizenship until they are almost to retirement age, and then get a social security number and social security checks each month? Do you not understand that you can do things like vote and get a welfare debit card without showing a state or federal issued ID card? Do you not understand that we are just asking people to sign in, get citizenship or legal migrant worker status? Do you not understand the hypocrisy of people who enter illegally, work illegally, and milk the welfare system while not contributing a tax base, then taking to the streets to enjoy their freedom to assemble and whine about rights?

It will continue to happen as long as we let it. Turning a blind eye will encourage others, until the entitlement programs are so heavily burdened our taxes will either be raised significantly or the entitlement programs will be phased out altogether, screwing the people who paid into it their entire lives and ruining what could have been a somewhat functioning system.

Whining about who America stole its land from, about american injustices, about all the other stuff the government spends money on -- all that is a diversion and largely irrelevant to the argument, let alone irrelevant to working stiffs who have little or no control what their country did/is doing.

[Tribesman]

Lol the fact that you use the word "citizen" followed by the word "entitled" shows perhaps you dont understand the argument.

Since the point you raised was about the Peruvian government giving its citizens information that they were entitled to (information that your government also gives them) .
It shows that your post was just another red-herring rant .
So heed your own advice ... all that is a diversion and largely irrelevant to the argument