Am I bovvered?

[English assassin]

Another fun day in the youth court:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1740933,00.html


Britain's youngest drink-driver punched a prosecutor in the back, threw a jug of water at magistrates and hurled abuse at court officials as she was told she would be locked up for four months.
Proceedings at Newbury youth court stopped yesterday when Leanne Black, 14, kicked a chair over and lunged at prosecuting lawyer Lesley Gilmore.

The teenager raced around the courtroom swearing at officials and grappling with members of her family before security guards, who had been alerted when Mrs Gilmore pressed a panic button in the court, arrived and led her away


Black had arrived at court armed with eggs - to pelt photographers with - and her mother, Nora, also contributed to the day's events by sticking out her bottom for the cameras and saying "film this".


Black apologised to the court, its officials and Mrs Gilmore, and was told that because of her age there would be no further sentence for her outburst

Soooo, you can turn up at court prepared for a fracas, attack lawyers, judges and court staff, and get, err, no punishment whatsoever. Any parents of young children, or indeed anyone else with any common sense, want to comment on what message this will inevitably give young Ms Black about the importance of obeying authority? :wall:

Bring back the birch...

[Ja'chyra]

Lol, Chavs, don't you just love them. :no:


Quote:
Black had arrived at court armed with eggs - to pelt photographers with - and her mother, Nora, also contributed to the day's events by sticking out her bottom for the cameras and saying "film this".

I think this says a lot.

[Kraxis]

She shoud have gotten a few months extra for that.
It wasn't an outburst of a surprised person, but a prepared assault.

[Justiciar]

Ho ho! Paupers, eh? :no:

[Avicenna]

The mum should definitely get some. Indecent exposure...

[Templar Knight]

Some people really need to get a job

[lancelot]

The funniest thing is the article says she was banned from driving at the age of 12 for 2 years...which would make her 14...

So in effect she would 'legally' be entitled to drive illegally at 14 years of age!?!?! :laugh4: :wall:

How funny is that??? You couldnt make that up if you wanted to...~:joker:

No wonder this country is going to hell....our judges seem to have simple arithmatic problems for starters, as well as a dubious knowledge of basic motoring laws...oh well.

[Kralizec]

I guess that the idea behind the original sentence was that if she drove again, they would have legal grounds to punish her more harshly.

Lot of good that did.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I get homesick and then I read the news...

[Marcellus]

Black apologised to the court, its officials and Mrs Gilmore, and was told that because of her age there would be no further sentence for her outburst

At 14 you should be able to realise that running around court attacking people and swearing is wrong. A further sentence should not have been discounted simply because of her age.


Black had arrived at court armed with eggs - to pelt photographers with - and her mother, Nora, also contributed to the day's events by sticking out her bottom for the cameras and saying "film this".

I wonder where she gets her disrepectful side from.

[Viking]

Such people make we wonder: Are they just plain stupid? Do they simply not care about what other people think of them? Or a combination?

[master of the puppets]

SEE SEE no one believes me when i tell them the world is going down the toilet (every day), but here we go, FUTURE TRAILER TRASH except british.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

The fact that she came equipped for a melee would seem to indicate she should most definitely be punished.

[GoreBag]

Oh, big deal. She made a mockery of the court. Cry me a river.

[Radier]

What is a chav? :help:

And that child and her mother do have serious issues.

[Marcellus]

What is a chav? :help:

https://img465.imageshack.us/img465/5835/chav4xz.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

[BDC]

Don't worry, she'll be in prison/stuck with a bunch of kids soon...

[Craterus]

We need a FINAL SOLUTION for the chav problem.

[Viking]

Oh, big deal. She made a mockery of the court. Cry me a river.

It`s not like it happens that often.

[caravel]

Yea, I feel sorry for the other prisoners and her future sprogs. Well I will feel sorry for them until they're also horrible little chavs themselves, vandalising and abusing everything in sight and making the next series of happy slap videos.

Chavs are Britain's peasant underclass. They're now impossible to avoid unless you live in a really upper class area, go every where by car and rarely step outside your house anyway. They are largely aggressive, uneducated, uncultured moronic, promiscuous, desensitised yobs, that only think about themselves and their next fix of tobacco, alcohol or drugs, and have absolutely no fashion sense whatsoever but actually think that they do and that in fact the rest of the planet doesn't. They are not creative only destructive. There is not an ounce of good will in any of them, only derision and paranoid aggression. Beauty or art is lost on them. A nature reserve is a useful rubbish tip, and a grass verge would make a good car park. Their homes are disgusting smelly tips, their children unruly, uneducated, bullying yobs, yet they can afford cable/sattelite TV, DVD player, mobile phones (sometimes 2 or more per chav), lots of tacky looking gold jewellery, designer clothes (usually the sports type that has the name plastered all over in huge letters), large widescreen tv's, stereos and games consoles, and often can even afford to run a car. All of this is usually paid for by the tax payer of course, who also support the 5 or 6 children.

They always see themselves as the victim, it's not their fault that they beat some poor devil up and robbed him, while filming it on their phones... I mean they're bored! There's nothing for them to do, and they've no opportunities! Their parents beat them up also! They had a rough time, so try to understand! It's the governments fault! It's the police's fault, immigrants are to blame! Anyone, but not the chavs themselves. They need to be sent on a nice holiday somewhere to try and rehab them. Not a problem, the taxpayer can foot the bill for this, I mean they pay their social security anyway so paying for some youth development schemes and sports facilities for bored chavs won't hurt will it? And when it's covered in graffiti and burnt to the ground the good old taxpayer can pay again to get it rebuilt! Chavs are stealing cars, racing them around and burning them out, before abandoning them for, guess who? the good old taxpayer to foot them bill for their removal and scrapping. What is the solution to this? No? OMG... you don't know?? Of course, well let me explain, we build dirt tracks and go-karting tracks so that the chavs can race cars legally, because not having this facility was forcing them to steal and burn out someone elses cars! Such a simple solution, and all at the cost to the taxpayer!

And what can the hard working taxpayer do about this? The simple matter is absolutely nothing. These scum will get away with light sentences time and time again. Hit them, and you will be the criminal, you will go to prison. Report them to the police for their abuse and they torment you until you are forced to move out, take them to court and get one of their little scum convicted and they will scream abuse at you from the public gallery. Authority is weak, nothing they do is challenged, there is no discipline. If they cause a problem on a housing estate or in public transport, people cannot do anything. To do so could cause more trouble than it's worth.

How can you expect an ill disciplined people that have no self respect, and take pride in nothing, to respect anyone else or take pride in anything?

[Crazed Rabbit]

You heartless people! I hope she gets a good setup in prison with a big TV and a PS2, and an XBox 360 if she's good.

Crazed Rabbit

P.S. Seriously, something's rotten in the state of Denmark.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yea, I feel sorry for the other prisoners and her future sprogs. Well I will feel sorry for them until they're also horrible little chavs themselves, vandalising and abusing everything in sight and making the next series of happy slap videos.

Chavs are Britain's peasant underclass. They're now impossible to avoid unless you live in a really upper class area, go every where by car and rarely step outside your house anyway. They are largely aggressive, uneducated, uncultured moronic, promiscuous, desensitised yobs, that only think about themselves and their next fix of tobacco, alcohol or drugs, and have absolutely no fashion sense whatsoever but actually think that they do and that in fact the rest of the planet doesn't. They are not creative only destructive. There is not an ounce of good will in any of them, only derision and paranoid aggression. Beauty or art is lost on them. A nature reserve is a useful rubbish tip, and a grass verge would make a good car park. Their homes are disgusting smelly tips, their children unruly, uneducated, bullying yobs, yet they can afford cable/sattelite TV, DVD player, mobile phones (sometimes 2 or more per chav), lots of tacky looking gold jewellery, designer clothes (usually the sports type that has the name plastered all over in huge letters), large widescreen tv's, stereos and games consoles, and often can even afford to run a car. All of this is usually paid for by the tax payer of course, who also support the 5 or 6 children.

They always see themselves as the victim, it's not their fault that they beat some poor devil up and robbed him, while filming it on their phones... I mean they're bored! There's nothing for them to do, and they've no opportunities! Their parents beat them up also! They had a rough time, so try to understand! It's the governments fault! It's the police's fault, immigrants are to blame! Anyone, but not the chavs themselves. They need to be sent on a nice holiday somewhere to try and rehab them. Not a problem, the taxpayer can foot the bill for this, I mean they pay their social security anyway so paying for some youth development schemes and sports facilities for bored chavs won't hurt will it? And when it's covered in graffiti and burnt to the ground the good old taxpayer can pay again to get it rebuilt! Chavs are stealing cars, racing them around and burning them out, before abandoning them for, guess who? the good old taxpayer to foot them bill for their removal and scrapping. What is the solution to this? No? OMG... you don't know?? Of course, well let me explain, we build dirt tracks and go-karting tracks so that the chavs can race cars legally, because not having this facility was forcing them to steal and burn out someone elses cars! Such a simple solution, and all at the cost to the taxpayer!

And what can the hard working taxpayer do about this? The simple matter is absolutely nothing. These scum will get away with light sentences time and time again. Hit them, and you will be the criminal, you will go to prison. Report them to the police for their abuse and they torment you until you are forced to move out, take them to court and get one of their little scum convicted and they will scream abuse at you from the public gallery. Authority is weak, nothing they do is challenged, there is no discipline. If they cause a problem on a housing estate or in public transport, people cannot do anything. To do so could cause more trouble than it's worth.

How can you expect an ill disciplined people that have no self respect, and take pride in nothing, to respect anyone else or take pride in anything?


:2thumbsup: Excellent. Couldn't have put it better myself. :2thumbsup:

[yesdachi]

Chav = White trash in American?:inquisitive:

[Al Khalifah]

Not quite trailer trash, think the mental capacity and fashion sense of trailer trash - but in urban areas.

They are in many ways quite a paradox:
On the one hand, they always hang around in large gatherings - yet they are accused of being anti-social.
They are often poor, yet often covered in gold and using the latest consumer electronics.
The boys are often very lanky in appearance - yet they only eat beans, sausage and chips for every meal.
The girls are often extra large - yet they wear size small clothes.
Their favorite musicians are often black R&B/Urban artists - yet they are often racist and unreceptive to other cultures.
They claim a hatred of the French and Germans - yet they all drive old Astras, Corsas, 106s, 206s, Clios designed like mutton dressed up as lamb.
They claim a hatred of the Spanish - yet they all go to the Balaeric Islands on holiday.
They claim to be streetwise and hard as nails - yet they constantly seemed to get assaulted and raped.
They all claim to have a cousin who is in prison for hospitalising Mike Tyson, who's 6ft 8 tall and 6ft 8 wide, who will come and kill you if you so much as touch them - yet their cousin, if they are actually in prison, is really there for pinching batteries from Tesco and if they were indeed in prison, would they really be allowed day release for the purpose of killing you? (I presume they'd probably just punch through the walls or kill the guards).
A group will shout at you from a distance about how you are a faggot and a coward (not in those exact words) - yet if you approach them to try and prove them wrong, they scatter like the pigeons in Trafalger Square.

As for this girl, well, maybe child labour isn't all that bad - I told you we shouldn't close the workhouses.

[Samurai Waki]

Perhaps we should reinstitutionalize Flogging as a means of punishment...

For the Girl's little outburst in court...90 Lashes from the Cat-o-nine-tails.

[master of the puppets]

oh, i like that wakizashi, i like that a lot.
so really there like quasi-gangster, hmm american or british there All idiotic.


They are often poor, yet often covered in gold and using the latest consumer electronics.
:laugh4: oh yeah they're those people alright. Can't feed there kids but 400 dollar cell phone.

[Papewaio]

War, Draft, Cannon Fodder.



Problem solved. :laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

I stumbled upon this:
A description of Paris, from http://chavtowns.co.uk/

Cultural cross-pollenisation at its best?

"Oh Mon Dieu. I've lived here for nine years now and becoming more and more common than dog-shit on the Paris streets is the French Chav. Or 'jeunes de la cité' (Kids of the council estates). They are alarmingly similar to their British counterpart. 'Designer' track suits tucked into white socks covered by blinding white trainers. Bloody baseball caps. Whispy moustaches. Cheap cigarettes. Bad breath. Children to teenage mothers called 'Kevin' or 'Cindy' (I kid you not). And loads of bling.
Those ridiculous handshakes that involve only the fingers to begin with, then a nuckle punch, and then a slap of the open hand over the heart. Pathetic, and useless. The more extreme Chav might sport a bandana under his cap. Too cool, man. Like flies around said dogshit they congregrate around 'MacDo's' or KFC, where it appears necessary to spit constantly, smoke, make irritating rap gestures, ask passersby for money and lear at blond women ( a high percentage of them are African or Arabs). Paris scum.
Where the simpletons hang out.
Chatalet, in the centre of town. Absolute pondlife. Chav centrale. Bling shops, porno cinemas, 'rap' gear, little young sluts looking to produce a 'braaaahn' baby, McDonald's, Pizza Huts, KFCs. Thrown into this, shit hip-hop record shops blaring out the usual rubbish, tourists, sex-fiends, drud addicts and you've got a bit of Paris that will give you memories you'll take to the grave. Truly wretched and horrible. Thieving is par for the course.
The Bastille.
Another Chav stronghold. Once cradle of the Revolution. Now a cess-pit of Chav slime. Disappointing during the day, it's seriously dangerous at night. Roaming packs of kebab- wielding Chav scum looking for fights or tourists to rob. Predictable fights in the Taxi queues. Loads of bling and tracksuits almost blind you so you don't notice your walet is being nicked.
The breeding ground.
St Denis in northern Paris around the new Stade de France.
It's like the Chav equivelent of the Alien nest in Aliens that Ripley destroys by torching it (hey, that gives me an idea...).
Three places in the City of Light to avoid, folks.
It's speading so fast it's terrifying. God in heaven, save us all from Chavs."

[Samurai Waki]

Is it just me...or is it the way these idiots were parented when they grew up? When I was young I got disciplined for doing bad things, and whenever I go to the store now I see some young kid screaming and crying because he can't get his favorite video game, and she'll say something like "if you stop crying, I'll buy you the game"... if I did that when I was a kid my mom would've smacked me and told me to be silent, and that I wouldn't get to have dessert for dinner. I think people are letting their kids get out of control, and this problem needs to be stamped out immediately.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Discipline has gone to rot. The parents are to blame, and the state, in some situations, for trying to raise the children.

And, is it legal to wear a sword or carry a wrench when walking in the city? Something makes me doubt it (and that you'd be arrested in England for having a weapon).

Crazed Rabbit

[Samurai Waki]

And, is it legal to wear a sword or carry a wrench when walking in the city? Something makes me doubt it (and that you'd be arrested in England for having a weapon).

Crazed Rabbit

In Montana its legal to carry a handgun...:2thumbsup:

[caravel]

@Al Khalifah: So true, and there's the "got a spare fag" pesterers as well (fag = british slang cigarette). Or the "excuse me have you got a spare cigarette" (when they put on the false politeness). What amazes me is the idea that someone would carry around a spare cigarette with them, just in case someone hanging around on a street corner may need one... When I inform them, truthfully, that I don't smoke, and as such wouldn't be carrying around a spare in case somone may need it, they usually mutter "bet ya 'ave, ya jus don won a gimme one". Followed by other derisive remarks.

[Spetulhu]

That chav attitude is getting common elsewhere too. We had a young man do his school-related work practice with us, some 500 km from his home town. The distance wasn't any real problem for him as he could live with relatives here. But he constantly complained about the cost of all this. The school system and related support wasn't paying him very much for the training period. One month in particular stood out. He told us how the social services of his home town paid his rent and his mother paid his electricity bill since he was so poor. Then he started testing the new sound system in his car, a full kit worth close to 1000€ if you bought it all from honest dealers. :inquisitive:

Many other chav-related habits too. Need to take a leak? Here's as good as anywhere. Finished your burger? Drop greasy papers on ground. And the fuzzy moustache, of course.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

yet if you approach them to try and prove them wrong, they scatter like the pigeons in Trafalger Square.
If only...

[Al Khalifah]

My other favorite is when they pull up against you at the lights in their ridiculous contraption of plastic bolted on to a feeble little engine with a large bore exhaust that can't possibly provide the back-pressure to give them any kind of start.
Even though there's an enforced 70mph speed limit on my favorite stretch, you can normally be around 20 lengths ahead of them by the time you approach that speed - even in many standard factory model family cars. Even the older slightly more 'learned' chavs who have upgraded to Cavaliers and the odd Imprezza can be easily made a mockery of due to their complete driving incompetence.

One day, I'm going to insist on racing for keeps, but knowing my luck that'll be the day my clutch explodes.

[Al Khalifah]

My other favorite is when they pull up against you at the lights in their ridiculous contraption of plastic bolted on to a feeble little engine with a large bore exhaust that can't possibly provide the back-pressure to give them any kind of start.
Even though there's an enforced 70mph speed limit on my favorite stretch, you can normally be around 20 lengths ahead of them by the time you approach that speed - even in many standard factory model family cars. Even the older slightly more 'learned' chavs who have upgraded to Cavaliers and the odd Imprezza can be easily made a mockery of due to their complete driving incompetence.

One day, I'm going to insist on racing for keeps, but knowing my luck that'll be the day my clutch explodes.

[Al Khalifah]

My other favorite is when they pull up against you at the lights in their ridiculous contraption of plastic bolted on to a feeble little engine with a large bore exhaust that can't possibly provide the back-pressure to give them any kind of start.
Even though there's an enforced 70mph speed limit on my favorite stretch, you can normally be around 20 lengths ahead of them by the time you approach that speed - even in many standard factory model family cars. Even the older slightly more 'learned' chavs who have upgraded to Cavaliers and the odd Imprezza can be easily made a mockery of due to their complete driving incompetence.

One day, I'm going to insist on racing for keeps, but knowing my luck that'll be the day my clutch explodes.

[Tribesman]

Now I am really confused .
It appears that there are large groups of scum , without respect for law , culture , property or anything else, that are sponging off the state and intimidating people who are not like them or who are like them but not quite like them .
Yet they are not illegal immigrants , they are not the children of immigrants ????
I could have sworn that (going by a few recent topics here) it was only the bloody foriegner migrants that acted like this .
So does this mean that the small numbers of migrants that people seem to be so worried about who act just the same as these scum are in reality fitting in perfectly to their host nation and embracing the local way of life after all ?

[Kralizec]

You'll always have anti social trash even with no immigration, it's just that now they've gotten a "foreign flavour".

[Tribesman]

Actually it tends to be the opposite. Immigrants arrive and create a pocket of criminal activity calld a Ghetto, and young nationals see this as a "cool" way of life. Leading to what winds up as these "chavs" in Paris.

So in that case there wouldn't have been major slums that were rampant with crime , drugs , rape and prostitution , where the police wouldn't even go before there was illegal immigrants and cool ghetto culture .:inquisitive:

Well bugger me sideways GC , you had better rewrite all the history books to make them fit with your simplistic views .:no:

[Watchman]

Around here (well, on the NW coast really) we had gangs of young, idle and bored farmers in flashy duds (for the time) waving knives around, getting drunk, fighting in public and frightening good honest folk already in the early 1800s when nobody even knew what "illegal immigrant" was supposed to mean...

Mind you, eventually the afflicted region vented its excess population pressures overseas as emigrants into the United States and to lesser extent Sweden, and when the Civil War came around it was one of the areas near wholly devoid of an unhappy rebellious underclass.

Go figure.

[Watchman]

Okay, there's something missing from that theory now. Why does, or even would, that appeal to the "native" youths ?

[Tribesman]

But the ones at fault here are the minority that decides it does not want to adapt, and decides they're just gonna sit around doing criminal stuff while syphoning money from the state. This appeals to youngsters who are from the state in question, and there you have it.
That makes no sense at all GC .
If it existed before the immigrants , and will exist without the immigrants then what has it got to do with immigrants ?
Its the chicken/egg thing innit .

[Kraxis]

Okay, there's something missing from that theory now. Why does, or even would, that appeal to the "native" youths ?
Bullies have always been impressive.
There is a reason for the 'Big Dog and Me-Too' idea.

When I visit my GF mother in Brøndby and I hear the native boys (who are a little riff-raffy) talk, they have a destinct accent similar to that which the troublemakers most often have. And of course they use arabic words now and then (Wolla! and Yalla used most often).
The normal natives of the area simply don't talk that way, or dress like them for that matter.

Indeed it seems the coolness factor does play in.

[Watchman]

I think the concepts you're looking for run along the lines of "perceived notoriety", "exoticism" and "standing out".

In the absence of foreign influences, no restless group of youths ever had any problems generating its own equivalents.

[Watchman]

And the reason I'm categorizing you as a racist is your unwillingness to see the "riff-raff" phenomenom has nothing to do with immigrants in particular and everything to do with already or independantly extant common social dynamics and cause-effect chains.

[Watchman]

Yes, that's indeed quite exactly the kind of attitude I was talking about. 'Sides, "Immigrants arrive and create a pocket of criminal activity calld a Ghetto" sounds pretty generalizing to me nevermind smacking of flawed analysis characteristic of the intolerant position...

[Watchman]

Walking off in a huff of righteous, martyred indignation isn't exactly the most graceful way of admitting defeat.

It's also pretty damn boring.

Just give me some decent arguments that don't have gaping holes in their causal constructions (eg. the unexplained leap in "this appeals to youngsters..."), contradict your earlier statements (eg. "I label *some* immigrants" contra earlier, clearly plural, "immigrants come and...") or contain other such glaring faults of argumentation, and this might yet turn into a meaningful discussion.

[Spetulhu]

First off, you're statement about plurals is ridiculous. I said immigrants, yes. Does that mean all immigrants? Only someone like you would draw that conclusion. The only expanding on "immigrants" I did after that was to narrow it down by saying "some" immigrants. You're counter-arguments are completely out of context.

Eh? How does your present explanation have anything to do with your claim that immigrants bring with them a culture of crime that natives adopt? You just did a full 180, mate. :inquisitive:

[Papewaio]

So are you saying that immigrants commit more crime on average then locals?

[Incongruous]

Oh yes.
It's quite obviuos.

[Spetulhu]

Re-Read my post. It's the ones who refuse to work, and refuse to assimilate to their new country that bring the crime with them.


"Actually it tends to be the opposite. Immigrants arrive and create a pocket of criminal activity calld a Ghetto, and young nationals see this as a "cool" way of life. Leading to what winds up as these "chavs" in Paris."

That's the one I meant. We have freeloaders and work-shy people even without immigrant ghettos. It's not the immigrants that cause it, but I admit they take part in it.

[Papewaio]

That's a loaded question. And completely irrellevant. If they're commiting crime on a large scale at all, it's a problem.

No it is a very relevent question. But it has a very complex answer.

Ghetto's are not only bad they are good... they provide a structure for things to flourish, the good and the bad of the ethnic community.

Immigration, it is when the immigration outstips the resources of the communities to intergrate them. This is a function of both the intiative and resourcefulness of the communities themselves and of the immigrants.

[Scurvy]

Immigration, it is when the immigration outstips the resources of the communities to intergrate them. This is a function of both the intiative and resourcefulness of the communities themselves and of the immigrants.

nicely put :2thumbsup:

[caravel]

"Actually it tends to be the opposite. Immigrants arrive and create a pocket of criminal activity calld a Ghetto, and young nationals see this as a "cool" way of life. Leading to what winds up as these "chavs" in Paris."

Anyone that doubts this should try to find an alternative explanation for the majority of 'chavs' adopting an Afro-Carribbean "yardie" style of speaking, and in some cases fashion also. This applies to both anglo-asian and white chavs.

[English assassin]

Anyone that doubts this should try to find an alternative explanation for the majority of 'chavs' adopting an Afro-Carribbean "yardie" style of speaking, and in some cases fashion also. This applies to both anglo-asian and white chavs.

Corrolation isn't causation. Mods rode Vespas but you can't blame the Italians for the traditional bank holiday riots.

[yesdachi]

So are you saying that immigrants commit more crime on average then locals?
There certainly seems to be a correlation between increased crime and increased immigration.

Here is a great article I found on the topic (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/sanandaji6.html). It would also be interesting to anyone keeping up with the “Racism in Sweden” thread.

[caravel]

Many chavs emulate Afro-Carribean immigrants, with regards to their speech and accents to some degree, some more so than others. That is a fact. I didn't state that Afro-Carribean immigrants are the cause of any particular crime because Chav's are emulating their behaviour.

Chavs wear Burberry but no one is blaming that company for any crimes commited by chavs either. I feel that many people are missing the point, and only glancing at the surface of this problem. They are afraid to speak up about this because they are so conditioned into appearing politically correct. This is a culture issue. The chav "culture" is based on a misconcieved emulation of many conflicting ideals. They copy yardie speak because they think that is the cool way to be. They obviously see Afro-Carribean gangs as superior and feared. People will often try to emulate those they feel inferior to. They look at at these as cool gangsters, and part of a pimp and ho culture, that gain "respect" and want to be the same. They are gangster wannabees, but don't exactly walk about dressed like the Krays do they? They dress in American brand sports gear and speak similarly to the descendents of Afro-Carribean immigrants that have lived in the UK since the 70's, they in turn are emulating the turns of phrase and slang used in gangster rap. Everything about their appearance is rap/hip-hop, even if they're not into that, which most of them aren't. The problem with this is that they're often completely racist. Most importantly their culture has nothing much in common with British Culture.

[Tribesman]

Re-Read my post. It's the ones who refuse to work, and refuse to assimilate to their new country that bring the crime with them.

But since there already locals that do not work and do commit crime then the immigrants are in fact assimilating perfectly in their new countyr , it is just that they are assimilating to the bad part not the good part , it isn't something they bring with them , it is something that is already there .

Poor apologists. You'll see the light when this sort of riff-raff comes to affect you personally.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: ....:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: ...actually that is almost too pathetic for laughter GC , do you think people live in a bubble or atop of an ivory tower because they don't share your nonsensical views on immigration , crime and assimilation ?

[Watchman]

Irate youths (or for that matter other groups) who want to stand out and look all cool and notorious and rebel have since God knows when never failed to adopt the dresses and behavior pattterns of other groups regarded as "dangerous", "notorious", "exotic", "exciting", "outsider" and whatever. Should they find themselves without such models, or should the example of the models available be passé for some reason, they have always displayed considerable ingenuity in employing extant symbology, details of dress and whatever, usually in greatly exaggerated forms, to the same ends.

This is one of those little behavioral patterns that tends to repeat itself the world over wholly irrespective of the exact details of the group doing the "standing out" gig, or their sources of inspiration for their particular brand of "tribal colours." In the Fifties restless youths around here imitated their American equivalents, with some inevitable local quirks thrown in; their peers nowadays have swapped the greased hair and jeans for faux hip-hop image, but it is rather difficult to see anything else than cosmetical differences in the phenomenom.

The equivalents in early 1800s Norrbotten, being for obvious reasons without such urbane and international sources of inspiration, had to make do by adapting aspects the traditional local manner of dress and emphasizing certain points as means of group identification and cultivating the "notorious" image.

Medieval university students were infamous for forming armed gangs that roamed the nighttime streets and often engaged in drunken brawls, usually with weapons. The distinctive look they had already from the traditional academic wear...

Same old shit. It's trying to pin the present-day incarnation of this perennial phenomenom on immigrants and/or black ghettoes that singles out the racist thinking, or at best severely insufficient analysis.

Ditto for excessively simple and tendentious takes of the supposed causal link "immigration = crime." Do some real thinking on the topic instead of spouting such populist BS, please. Crime, poverty, the tendency of immigrants to fall into both more often than is proportionally the case with the natives, and other such topics are way more complicated than that.

[yesdachi]

Same old shit. It's trying to pin the present-day incarnation of this perennial phenomenom on immigrants and/or black ghettoes that singles out the racist thinking, or at best severely insufficient analysis.

Ditto for excessively simple and tendentious takes of the supposed causal link "immigration = crime." Do some real thinking on the topic instead of spouting such populist BS, please. Crime, poverty, the tendency of immigrants to fall into both more often than is proportionally the case with the natives, and other such topics are way more complicated than that.
I see says the blind man.:rolleyes:

[Watchman]

My eyes work just fine. Don't even need glasses. Why ?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

the way i see it is that throughout history youve had groups of young people that perahaps haven't been raised ''right'', to much or to little dicipline perhaps, who act in this way, they would exist with or without immigration, its more an issue of haveing a stable family unit to give them a more balanced outlook on life.

[Watchman]

Stable family unit isn't required. Mine wasn't, and I grew up a very ethical and law-abiding citizen.

The important thing is, I think, shifts in the society itself and how the youths adapt to them. Especially if they're feeling disadvantaged or alienated, or that "things aren't right" for some reason, a confrontative attitude seems to be the usual result. A sort of group isolationism seems to be another, especially in modern Gesellchaft societies.

And you know, I understand there's ancient Babylonian clay tablets or something along those lines where a father laments "today's youth"...

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Stable family unit isn't required. Mine wasn't, and I grew up a very ethical and law-abiding citizen.

The important thing is, I think, shifts in the society itself and how the youths adapt to them. Especially if they're feeling disadvantaged or alienated, or that "things aren't right" for some reason, a confrontative attitude seems to be the usual result. A sort of group isolationism seems to be another, especially in modern Gesellchaft societies.

And you know, I understand there's ancient Babylonian clay tablets or something along those lines where a father laments "today's youth"...
no not required for all people, everyone is different, i think its probably all about the ability to empathise with others, most chavs don't empathise or understand their actions or just don't care enough they need to learn to care about other people, stick em in the woods for a while that will get rid of their hard as nails arrogance! :2thumbsup:

of course your right nostalga for the good old days and dislike of the upstart youth has always been common, but i think that there is a different aspect in the chav culture i see today, the violence is more without reason, its not a clash of ideologys its chavs attacking the modern world

[caravel]

But the chav culture are not solely youths. They are young and old of both genders. You're mistaking chavs with general "tearaways". There have always been these types since day one, but the chav underclass as described above are a different thing. They are a people without education discipline, respect for anyone or anything, including themselves and seriously lacking in social skills. These sort of people are very likely to deviate and become troublemakers, though many of them don't set out to act ilegally. Alot of their behaviour is not hooliganism or general crime, it is anti-social. That is, for example, behaviour such as keeping a banger of a car and a rubbish tip in the front garden and allowing their kids to run riot over all peoples property and on public transport, without being aware that there is something wrong with allowing them to do that, until late at night vandalising and causing a general nuisance. They don't view working as important, instead they prefer to sponge off the taxpayer. They allow their daughters to keep live in boyfriends, which leads to an unwanted pregnancy and an abortion or yet another uneducated badly brought up individual with a similar future ahead of it. The adults wear the same ridiculous clothes that have been described.

So this is not "todays youth" we're speaking of, it's a whole sub-culture thing. The kids are obviously a bigger problem than the adults and it is they that are often emulating the yardie speak, hanging about on street corners intimidating people, and causing the most trouble, moreso than the generic 'immigrants' group, being often involved in car theft, drugs and other petty crimes. But this is not because it has always been like this, it is a direct product of the chav culture.

Who sits on a bus/train with a mobile phone clapped up to their ear and talks about someone's sexual behaviour, often their own, for all to hear?

Who would also talk publically about exactly how much they drank and how sick they were last night and how they threw their guts up on the taxi window, then look around them thinking that everyone else must be so impressed by this. Chavs that's who. And more specifically women, in actual conversations that I have overheard.

Who roars and shouts in the middle of the high street at his girlfiend and his kid(s), bawling expletives and obscenities, and threatening to "smack your f***ing head in you f***ing bitch, when we get home". Chavs.

Who will brawl in the street with the women cheering them on like cackling vultures? ("German Screeching Women" anyone?) Chavs.

Who will start a massive row in the street with threats of violence and to fetch that famous 6' 8" uncle/cousin from prison to sort you out? Just because you happened to look in their direction at the wrong moment. And I'm not talking about youths.

Who has a split personality and is extremely paranoid and insecure, changing from moderately amicable to totally hostile within seconds, especially after a drink? Who else?

Who bawls and swears at their unfortunate baby "f***ing hell shut the f*** up!"... in the street or on public transport.

Do I need to go on?

They obviously don't have chavs where some of you hail from and maybe you don't have to live in proximity to them, which is why you're so tolerant and politically correct.

[Watchman]

I think this deserves a reiteration of the part of my little essay on the "Racism in Sweden" thread; although I wrote it mainly concerning immigrants, the principles and mechanisms are generally applicable and these "chav" guys sound like a real "social trap" case (aside from being a subculture of total jerks, but then what do you expect when the Western societies as a whole have been mainly encouraging raging egomania for the past few decades?). I'll edit it and put it under spoiler to save space.

Particularly as lack of trust in the willingness and ability of the institutions of the host society (regardless of the individual's background) to treat people fairly and equally, in particular in judicial matters, is thought to be among the most important factors that produce disregard of the community's nominal rules and norms and a willingness to abuse them to one's own benefit.

Or, put this way. If the individual perceives that the social institutions treat him basically fairly and equally to others, he is all other things being equal going to trust them more in part as he knows he can turn to them for justice if slighted. Figuratively speaking, this lets him "risk" trusting other people in general and not just his immediate reference group, and concretely speaking makes him more likely to "play by the rules" and respect the norms as he thinks those are actually upheld and enforced and apply to others too. However, if he perceives them treating himself or other basically unfairly -why and how and when isn't really important- this is no longer the case. The more unfairness and injustice he perceives, the less respect he will have to the nominal rules and norms as so far as he can tell those are not respected and upheld by others, in particular the social institutions that are supposed to protect him from possible wrongdoing by others, and instead unequally disadvantage and advantage particular groups. This incidentally also applies if the unfairness is to his personal advantage - this is after all essentially corruption. The less reason he has to trust the supposedly objective institutions and norms, the less he respects them, the more willing he is to "play foul", the more he suspects others of the same, the less he trusts others by default, the more he "turns inward" into a smaller reference group he thinks he can trust for some reason - family relations, shared ethnicity, membership in the same strongly normative group - and distrust those outside it...

The above is my nutshell explanation of the elementary theory of social trap, a concept of Social Sciences, so named because such a "malign circle" of distrust is difficult to break and prone to afflicting entire societies.
---
Second- and further-generation immigrants are particularly vulnerable, as unlike the first generation they lack immediate personal ties to another culture and country; so far as they are concerned they are born and bred full citizens of their countries, and if they feel this sense of belonging is spurned (because of ethnicity or whatever) they are going to be quite deeply offended and disappointed; moreover, they'll be left without any larger frame of reference to belong to (as they tend to not feel they have too much in common with their parents' culture), and such "castaway" youths and young men in particular have always and everywhere been a prime source of trouble.

The same incidentally often afflicts native youths as well, mainly on the grounds of social background and/or place of origin; the immigrants just have the added complication of ethnicity thrown in.

'Course, the alienation and resulting troublemaking of such groups is only going to make the society at large become even more hostile towards them, which near invariably tends to lead to mutual "taint by association" (à la "all immigrants/blacks/New Jersey folk are criminals/thieves/lazy social bums" sentiments and conversely "all whiteys/natives/Washingtonians are racist/in cahoots against us/exploitative rich gits"), which lead to further distrust and segregation if only through the mechanics of self-fulfilling prophecy...

There's good reasons why they call it the "social trap."
*shrug* Make what you will of it, but I've a feeling this "chav" phenomenom is one symptom of wider defraying of the social "knit" that keeps communities running smoothly and people (relatively) honest and considerate.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

But the chav culture are not solely youths. They are young and old of both genders. You're mistaking chavs with general "tearaways". There have always been these types since day one, but the chav underclass as described above are a different thing. They are a people without education discipline, respect for anyone or anything, including themselves and seriously lacking in social skills. These sort of people are very likely to deviate and become troublemakers, though many of them don't set out to act ilegally. Alot of their behaviour is not hooliganism or general crime, it is anti-social. That is, for example, behaviour such as keeping a banger of a car and a rubbish tip in the front garden and allowing their kids to run riot over all peoples property and on public transport, without being aware that there is something wrong with allowing them to do that, until late at night vandalising and causing a general nuisance. They don't view working as important, instead they prefer to sponge off the taxpayer. They allow their daughters to keep live in boyfriends, which leads to an unwanted pregnancy and an abortion or yet another uneducated badly brought up individual with a similar future ahead of it. The adults wear the same ridiculous clothes that have been described.

So this is not "todays youth" we're speaking of, it's a whole sub-culture thing. The kids are obviously a bigger problem than the adults and it is they that are often emulating the yardie speak, hanging about on street corners intimidating people, and causing the most trouble, moreso than the generic 'immigrants' group, being often involved in car theft, drugs and other petty crimes. But this is not because it has always been like this, it is a direct product of the chav culture.

Who sits on a bus/train with a mobile phone clapped up to their ear and talks about someone's sexual behaviour, often their own, for all to hear?

Who would also talk publically about exactly how much they drank and how sick they were last night and how they threw their guts up on the taxi window, then look around them thinking that everyone else must be so impressed by this. Chavs that's who. And more specifically women, in actual conversations that I have overheard.

Who roars and shouts in the middle of the high street at his girlfiend and his kid(s), bawling expletives and obscenities, and threatening to "smack your f***ing head in you f***ing bitch, when we get home". Chavs.

Who will brawl in the street with the women cheering them on like cackling vultures? ("German Screeching Women" anyone?) Chavs.

Who will start a massive row in the street with threats of violence and to fetch that famous 6' 8" uncle/cousin from prison to sort you out? Just because you happened to look in their direction at the wrong moment. And I'm not talking about youths.

Who has a split personality and is extremely paranoid and insecure, changing from moderately amicable to totally hostile within seconds, especially after a drink? Who else?

Who bawls and swears at their unfortunate baby "f***ing hell shut the f*** up!"... in the street or on public transport.

Do I need to go on?

They obviously don't have chavs where some of you hail from and maybe you don't have to live in proximity to them, which is why you're so tolerant and politically correct.
well i do come in contact with them (but generaly avoid it when possible), and a good deal of them are as you have described, but many more aren't, they come from normal familys and its more of a facade of being chavs, i know that that the word chav includes adult chavs im not just talking about the young generation.
By the way, i know some people, that look and act like chavs but are actually alright as people.

[Watchman]

Ah. The "street cred" thing. The things people do because they think it makes them look "cool" - an eternal mystery.