The Future... spin-off: Hosted Mod Forums

[Epistolary Richard]

Spun-off from the discussion here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=62981


2. Too Many Mods

So many mods start up and then fail. If forums were a little more cautious in offering mod teams their own subforums this would I believe make people think more about how realistic their endeavour is; it would likely see more people joining up with stronger mods.

I would propose higher minimum criteria for mods to be accepted for hosting; though of course anyone could still put out an advert for putting together a team.

__________________________

Since the release of Rome Total War, things have changed for mod development. It used to be the case that specific mod forums tended to be on a single forum - normally the favoured mod forum of the core developers. Now, however, a single mod could potentially have forums on two, three or even as many as four or five different forums. On one of these forums they will typically have a development area and that will be seen as the 'home' of the mod, with the other forums serving a promotional purpose - publicising the developing mod to the different communities.

The benefit to the mod team is that they get to publicise their mod to a different membership - the trade-off is that the mod team have another location to update with information and answer queries, generally absorbing time from their team.

For the site, a hosted mod forum may elicit additional content, but equally there remains the possibility that a mod forum may not be updated by the team and go inactive. One can imagine that if every mod in the Forge had its own forum then there would be a bewildering number of forums the vast majority with very little content.

So, given all that, what do people think?

Is it beneficial for the overall community to have multiple forums across different sites?

If so, what should the criteria be? Should some distinction be made between mods that are being primarily developed on that forum and those mods which are being developed elsewhere and are merely being 'marketed' there?

Should a distinction be made between mods which have teams or which are largely the result of a single person?

Should a distinction be made between mods which have yet to make their first release and those where something is already downloadable?

Should the scope of the mod be taken into account? The reputation of the team? Its chances of success?

What support should a mod team expect from a site which is 'Hosting' them? Equally, what can a site expect from a mod team from which it has given a forum?

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

These are some good distinctions, and tbh distinctions are required to be in place to make sure every one has a fair chance of being given their own subforums. As mentioned by Dol Guldur, once an individual / modding team has been given the privilege of their own modding subforums, hopefully the penny should drop with regards to the responsibilities and commitment levels that a mod requires. It is frustrating for mod followers to see their mod update once every blue moon - once you've been given local moderation responsibility, you need to be responsible to keep everyone up-to-date with your project, but this is obviously at the developers' discretion.

I'll use my mod as an illustratory example in this discussion. RTG has topics at four different forums, including here @ ORG, TWC, SCC and .COM forums. Here's a link to each to illustrate:

ORG (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=58839)
TWC (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=118)
SCC (http://www.stratcommandcenter.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15148)
.COM (http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm31.showMessage?topicID=2985.topic)

As you can see, RTG has its own subforums @ TWC. It also has individual topics @ ORG, SCC & .COM forums. Obviously the individual topics are harder to update and consume more time because anything new should ideally be linked from the first post of the topic, so that readers can keep up-to-date on the mod's progress.

On the other hand, when you are given your own subforums, you then have the luxury of laying things out in a much more clearer way than the 1-topic-wonder: things soon become clustered and difficult to follow. If you've read the RTG topic here @ ORG, you'll see that I've jumped between various modding areas on numerous occasions - this is why it is crucial to use a progress list and keep news and announcements (with links) in the first post. Otherwise things easily become :dizzy2:

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IMO, a major mod should have at least one forum site where it has subforum privileges. Then in any additional TW forums, a single topic is all that is required because you can simply copy and paste the latest news from your 'base' into the various single-topics (this is what I do anyway, you may call it laziness ~D)

Exceptions could be made for truly unique projects, or ones which have a vast support base in numerous forums. It is only fair to mod followers to be able to quickly access information easily for these larger major projects, rather than read topic after topic (usually unrelated to each other) before they locate the news they're after.

[Dol Guldur]

Ultimately the forum owners will (and should) dictate the terms and conditions...


Personally I would like to see mods categorised and the requirements for hosting made a little more strict - or at least for the "less stable" mods to be given a second ranking.

Yes, I think hosted mods should be headlined and "marketed" mods relegated.

The criteria for hosting should perhaps be that the mod has a minimum number of team members, a modding plan of some kind, and perhaps some type of vouching system where someone on the board of a certain level vouches for the mod after reading the plan (or a certain number of the same). This latter should not be too hard to attain, nor too easy.

I also think there should be a category system :

Category A

Minor Mods would involve little more than retexturing

Major Mods would involve retexturing, map editing, a lot of new models

Full Conversions would involve changing just about everything

Category B

Historical - Early-era

Historical - Roman-era

Historical - Late-era

Non-historical

Category C

Imminent - public beta released

Emergent - teaser demo released

Inchoate - no demo released


Of course, this is all to be refined but you get the idea ;)

[hellas1]

Hello Modding Community!
Pre-Script: Epistolary Richard, I've found out how this forum is financed.

As I had tried, repeat "tried," to express some time ago, many, many excellent mods have been thought of and started.
The "man/womanpower" needed to complete these is in my opinion THE most crucial factor, people who know what to actually do.

From coding, to skinning, to historical research or whatever, it all requires dedication and see through to completion to make abstractions into completed, tangible projects!!

This is the reason for my frustration some time ago!
Many mods, not enough dedication. They don't die, they just fade away.....

I would pay for a mod's completion, if need be, despite people saying "You shouldn't pay for a mod." Which since the engine doesn't belong to a mod team but to Activision/Sony, this is, in a sense, true. But, what other options are there? Hmmm....

I have tried to actively involve myself with different mods to facilitate their completion. I want to see dreams become reality here in this and other forums. Artistic expression, Historical accuracy, 3d movement, now with the advent of Rome Total War, makes this a cherished place for me.

Bottom line: a little more tighter rules regarding mods in this forum about mod creation and distribution to the public. In my opinion time & lack of seriousness is the problem for mod completion.

To quote Dol Guldur "The criteria" is the issue here. :2thumbsup: Peace.

[Epistolary Richard]

Seasoned Alcoholic puts forward some good arguments as to why it's easier for the mod team itself to have it's own forum on a site for promotional purposes, rather than a single thread.

The site's concern would be - whilst their own forum would be convenient for a mod team - given the failure rates amongst mods, even mods that seem quite promising in the early stages, it will be left with a large number of little-used forms.

Equally, however, I would understand mod teams who would argue that - without a forum to call their own, it means they don't have the prestige to interest others - that in not being granted a forum it actually increases their likelihood of failure.

To be honest, I feel the choice of forum/no forum for marketing purposes (and I'd like to separate this consideration from those mods who actually want to develop here, who would most definitely need forums) is very limiting. A whole forum, in many cases, would see too much; no forum, a single thread as Seasoned Alcoholic is relatively unwieldy and less attractive and so perhaps is too little.

[Bwian]

The important factor is not just whether you have a forum, a single thread, or whatever.... it's a question of how frequently you actually update and add content. If you have a mod team, you can appoint someone to take care of this as a 'publicist', but if you are a small team, or one man operation, where do you find the time?

If a mod is active, then their forum thread should stay visible and at the top.

Personally, I think the burden of a forum al lyour own would outweigh the benefits for most mods. Should be judgement call of the Mod Leader really....with a reality check from the hoster! Where things go silly, IMHO, is when the mod teams start setting up tiny forums all over the place, where no-one visits, and only a handful register. No-one posts, no-one cares.

Forums should be granted to mods on the basis of activity in their own threads. Not their own posts....but those of others showing an interest!

[Lentonius]

The main purpose for mod teams to have their own sub-forum is really to get some attention. A mod on a normal thread, is usually not given much attention, unless the writer is either well known, or the tread is for a popular mod.

This leads to another annoying point i find. Threads and forums generally receive quite a few views, and in my opinion, a great amount of previews/ concepts receive a lot of views but absloutly no feedback. This can crush spirits in a mod, and is in my opinion, one of the biggest contributors to a mod's death.

For example, I posted the Mediterranean Total war preview 1- the samnites, (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=63305) a couple of weeks ago. Over 2 weeks work was put into it, and without bragging, i was pleased with the result.

50 views and not a single reply. Fortunately, on TWcenter and RTR forums we posted it on our sub-forums, and consequently received quite a lot of feedback.

Even so, had i not posted on these forums, and not received the feedback that i did, i personally would have been crushed by the fact nobody seemed interested.

For me, i dont really care about say 1 forum not being too interested, but for some people starting their own mods (and i mean by people, people who are not a well known name), they would be very deflated, and possibly give up.


So i cannot blame sub-forums in any way whatsoever. They are relatively easy to obtain if you ask nice enough and have some material to post. They give a mod some publicity, which i feel cannot harm anybody.

Then, the irony sometimes, is that nobody will give a mod words of encouragement, yet complain and criticise people when they give up a mod.


So, what can be done?

Well, i feel personally that people (including myself, i am not perfect:laugh4: ), should occasionally just say 'keep up the good work', or simply give an empty thread an opinion. A few seconds does not really hurt, and besides, it raises your post count and you can then get snazzy avatars.

Without being bitter, i feel that larger mods get millions of replies saying 'wow', yet some smaller mods seem to get shoved to the back of publicity or intrest, whatever you want to call it.

I realise these comments usually are because the bigger mods are sometimes better, but in the forums maybe we should try to organise it so that smaller mods can receive more views, maybe like the 'forum spotlight' on twcenter. Maybe here we could do a spotlight front page before entering the sub-forums of modification.

In conclusion to this, people cannot be blamed for multiple threads across a variety of forums, especially if a mod doesnt seem to get much attention.
We are humans, and like to be noticed.

Cheers
Lentonius

[Lusted]

For me as a one man mod team working on my mod, it can be hard finding the time to post updates anywhere apart from my TWC sub forum. So i find it is best for me to have a sub forum where people can find out more about my mod, but i try to post info about my mod as often as i can at .org and SCC. Being a one man modder has its problems, i am quite lucky that my mod gets as much interest as it does a TWC, but that is thanks to the work of other people helping to promote it as well. It was dispirating at first with the early version of my mods, as i would only get a few responses, wheras bigger mods get a huge response from fans. Now 4.0 is nearing completion and it is beomcing a true Major Mod, there is nothing small about it anymore and it is beginning to get more feedback but it is hard work.

Whether a mod gets a forum or not should depend on how much work it has done, whether it can generate the publicity to get the visits necessary for a forum to be justified, and whether it is likely to be finished or not.

[Epistolary Richard]

This leads to another annoying point i find. Threads and forums generally receive quite a few views, and in my opinion, a great amount of previews/ concepts receive a lot of views but absloutly no feedback. This can crush spirits in a mod, and is in my opinion, one of the biggest contributors to a mod's death.
...
I realise these comments usually are because the bigger mods are sometimes better, but in the forums maybe we should try to organise it so that smaller mods can receive more views, maybe like the 'forum spotlight' on twcenter. Maybe here we could do a spotlight front page before entering the sub-forums of modification.

You've highlighted a good point here about the lack of response to some good content threads. I think the root at it may be a couple of things - one being the reduced visibility of smaller mods - as you say - and the second a greater general reticence on the behalf of Org members to add short 'spam-like' words of encouragement. It's not just smaller mods that suffer from this, I've also seen some great tutorials have very few replies - despite hundreds of views.

There may be something I can look into that may allow people to acknowledge their appreciation for a thread in an easier way.

The other point about the lower profile of smaller mods - partly that's the nature of the beast: larger mods, especially total conversions, can provide their audience very unusual and unique visuals that generate excitement in a way that, say, a mod whose improvements are mainly gameplay orientated cannot.

One could use something like Darthmod as a counter-example to that assertion - a gameplay based mod with a large fanbase - however I think that would ignore the sheer length of time that's been around. The first Darthmod came out late 2004 and there have been more than a dozen different incarnations of the mod and the formations element since.

Building a fan base for anything is a non-trivial exercise - but just because you start small doesn't mean you have to stay that way. Lusted has been giving us a good example of how his own personal mod has managed to 'graduate' and after several versions is now beginning to make some serious noise.

But while we can't force people to take notice if they don't want to, I do agree that more can be done to make the information more accessible. The RTW Modding News Roundups - though time-consuming - are a step in the right direction, I think, trying to ensure that no small preview was overlooked and everything was made available in a single place conveniently for the mod consumer. Perhaps we can extend this good work further. Happy to hear people's thoughts and suggestions on this topic.

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

Even so, had i not posted on these forums, and not received the feedback that i did, i personally would have been crushed by the fact nobody seemed interested.

...

For me, i dont really care about say 1 forum not being too interested, but for some people starting their own mods (and i mean by people, people who are not a well known name), they would be very deflated, and possibly give up.
This is a good point, I tend to find that some mods receive various attention dependent upon which forum the latest piece of modding news is posted in. For example, there may be a bigger interest in a mod at forum A rather than forum B simply because the mod author has been established at forum A for a greater period of time, and is more widely known.

However, I think how you actually handle potential responses is something entirely different. As you've pointed out, it can relate directly to the mod author's individual mentality. For example, some people may prefer extended interest, and thus replies of support, encouragement etc are important to the mod author. However, IMO, if you can demonstrate a positive approach and show your determination, mettle, strength of character, whatever you want to call it, you may well win over even the most devout individual mod followers.


It was dispirating at first with the early version of my mods, as i would only get a few responses, wheras bigger mods get a huge response from fans.
As mentioned above, strength of character should see you through those difficult stages of uncertainty. But as you've mentioned, your mod now has a healthy support base of community followers that are inspired by your work :thumbsup:

Some may view the various mods that are available as direct competition to one another. Well, in a sense this may be true because competition exists in almost everything we do. But if one takes a step back and looks at the bigger picture, it becomes obvious that each project is the brainchild of the author. A pre-cursory glance may suggest that mod A and mod B for example are very similar in description. But if you look in more depth at a mod's workings, it soon becomes obvious that mod A and mod B are differentiated across multiple modding areas.


But while we can't force people to take notice if they don't want to, I do agree that more can be done to make the information more accessible. The RTW Modding News Roundups - though time-consuming - are a step in the right direction, I think, trying to ensure that no small preview was overlooked and everything was made available in a single place conveniently for the mod consumer. Perhaps we can extend this good work further. Happy to hear people's thoughts and suggestions on this topic.
The amount of views the monthly modding news roundups generate, regardless of responses, illustrates how valued this piece of information has become to the community. The hard work and research that goes into its construction is a credit to its author ~:thumb: :medievalcheers:

[spirit_of_rob]

I enjoy reading the moddding news round ups help me catch up on things ive missed/forgot to check the progress of :).

As for view compared to posts its depressing at time of writing imperiums lates update has 75 views not a single comment. Obviously everyone skips comment occasionally but i feel that a simple "well done" does not count as spam and indeed is often suffiecent to make the modder feel at least someone is paying attention.

BTW i am aware of the sillyness of someone with so few posts saying this so dont point it out lol

[Epistolary Richard]

Somewhat off topic, but I found this (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Making_a_MOD) an interesting article on mod design and working with a modding team in the Half-Life universe.

[LestaT]

For me, when modding I mod the game to please myself. If I find it enjoyable then maybe I'll present it to others.

Regarding sub-forums etc, I believe only mods that have something like a playable beta at least merit an own sub-forum no matter how big or beautiful or how exciting those mods are, which unfortunately never seen the light of the day. How sad, and what a waste of bandwith I should say.

During our conversion project, only when we have a playable beta version do we asked for sub-forum in RTR's own forum. For me, the satisfaction is not seeing 100 or 1000 downloads, but to know that I myself will play the mod as long as it takes and hope others enjoy it too.

That's all I can think of. :2thumbsup:

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

Somewhat off topic, but I found this (http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Making_a_MOD) an interesting article on mod design and working with a modding team in the Half-Life universe.

They also have a wiki database for the Unreal series, which covers games such as Unreal, Unreal Tournament and so on. Here's a link:

Unreal Wiki (http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/)

If the TW series does not yet have its own wiki, it would be a good idea to either request one (through CA), or for someone to setup their own TW wiki, and then submissions can be put forward to help expand the database.

[Epistolary Richard]

kdub looong ago did start a Romewiki (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=38605). Didn't get very far though. Something we should all discuss when MTW2 comes around is the best way to catalogue our research.