View Full Version : A Toe in the Water (Redux)
Kralizec
04-06-2006, 00:22
You're ignoring the fact that people might be negative about the EU's foreing "policy" while posaitve about that of the Netherlands or Denmark, for exmaple.
That's only ONE reason why this whole poll is flawed. There's not even a GAH optiohn. So I didn'n vote
and i'm not efvn sober
I see the point of this:sweatdrop:
You're ignoring the fact that people might be negative about the EU's foreing "policy" while posaitve about that of the Netherlands or Denmark, for exmaple.
The poll is meant to allow one's views of their respective polity. The E.U. is added as some Europeans may feel a greater sense of loyalty to the E.U. over the traditional nation state. If one doesn't feel that way, then they should vote their feelings for their homeland.
That's only ONE reason why this whole poll is flawed. There's not even a GAH optiohn. So I didn'n vote
Gah is for the retarded.
Soulforged
04-06-2006, 01:53
Pretty bad. The administration has taken a populist stance, tending to totally irrational decisions. The executive believes that he can take over the other branches, and has taken a few steps over the dominion of the other two. Part of the administration appears to have little knowledge of how economy works in capitalism, privileging populist propaganda over political movements based on real data. I see a progresive grow of poverty accompanied by an exponential grow of unemployment.
Reenk Roink
04-06-2006, 02:22
Gah is for the retarded.
:shocked3:
How dare you...!?
:no:
*mental note* never respond to Pindar again...
How dare you...!?
The truth cuts like a knife.
Proletariat
04-06-2006, 02:33
I voted that I'm positive.
Congrats on Senior Membership, Pindar.
Papewaio
04-06-2006, 02:48
The truth cuts like a knife.
Well by this statement:
Gah is for the retarded.
Your knife is blunt indeed.
Gah! is an option for those who disagree with the premise of a question, or there is no answer that accurately enough describes the answer they feel most appropriate for the question, or the disdain they have for polls or how they feel.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
04-06-2006, 02:54
I feel so negatively about my homeland's future that I left.
I voted that I'm positive.
Congrats on Senior Membership, Pindar.
Hello Fair Lady,
My Senior Membership reaches back even to the Elder Days... I have seen three ages of the Org. many liberal defeats and many fruitless victories.
Tribesman
04-06-2006, 02:59
Pindar ; Unless people state which direction they think their country is heading then it doesn't matter which direction they think their country is heading or if they think that the direction that they desire is really positive or not . Apart from as a blind recipient of propoganda .
Are you a lawyer by any chance?
You ask for generalities to be answered by specifics , if you want to find specifics then you don't focus on generalities .
If you focus on generalities to back up the specfiics that you want to hear then you are a person who a;lready knows the answer that they want to hear and will not listen when it comes to specifics
Gah! is an option for those who disagree with the premise of a question, or there is no answer that accurately enough describes the answer they feel most appropriate for the question, or the disdain they have for polls or how they feel.
Gah is an inanity. It is the abode of those without the acumen to think through an issue or commit to a stance but nonetheless feel the need to reply.
Pindar ; Unless people state which direction they think their country is heading then it doesn't matter which direction they think their country is heading or if they think that the direction that they desire is really positive or not . Apart from as a blind recipient of propoganda .
Are you a lawyer by any chance?
You ask for generalities to be answered by specifics , if you want to find specifics then you don't focus on generalities .
If you focus on generalities to back up the specfiics that you want to hear then you are a person who a;lready knows the answer that they want to hear and will not listen when it comes to specifics
The question is quite simple. It asks how a person feels about their nation's prospects in the future. The direction is either positive or negative. There are no specifics required other than choosing a polity and knowing how one feels about it moving into the future.
Reenk Roink
04-06-2006, 03:13
Gah is an inanity. It is the abode of those without the acumen to think through an issue or commit to a stance but nonetheless feel the need to reply.
It's a tradition...
The truth cuts like a knife.
And arrogance is broken...
*mental note* never respond to Pindar again...
"Never" is not very long it appears.
Minus one point for lack of resolve.
It's a tradition...
A tradition that is inane is its own refutation.
LeftEyeNine
04-06-2006, 04:04
Is this a show or something? Let the debate flow please if you are really eager about the topic.
Tribesman
04-06-2006, 04:13
The question is quite simple. It asks how a person feels about their nation's prospects in the future. The direction is either positive or negative. There are no specifics required other than choosing a polity and knowing how one feels about it moving into the future.
In which case you are asking about specific policies .
Since it appears that each and every country has many diverse policies often moving in seemingly opposite directions .
Then gah can be the only answer .
But gah is a response to the question .
And the question as stated is.........
the abode of those without the acumen to think through an issue :no:
Papewaio
04-06-2006, 04:32
Gah is an inanity. It is the abode of those without the acumen to think through an issue or commit to a stance but nonetheless feel the need to reply.
Which makes it a perfect reply for the Backroom.
Its a paradox, without having the space for an inane response you are left with an inane poll. :gah:
I've got some problems with some of our policies (duh), but overall we're doing quite well. :yes:
Divinus Arma
04-06-2006, 05:23
Its a good topic for discussion. Lets get on with it and drop the Gah discussion. If you want a poll with Gah, make it yourself. :bow:
I am positive about the direction the U.S. is going overall. I am still frustrated with many of the policies of this Senate and White House. I am especially frustrated with the demise of states rights and the expansion of federal power under liberal constitutional interpretation by this Supreme Court. I look forward to when Ginsburg and her ilk pass the mantle.
I also look forward to a more unified and capable Democratic party. This is because Republicans easily destroy the liberal agenda and so have become complacent and fat in the last few years. Good competition breeds better competitors. I want the state's rights GOP back.
IrishMike
04-06-2006, 05:36
I have a problem with just about everything connected to the current administration here in the USA. I think the next president needs to be a solid moderate to gain back some national unity, and then slowly shift back to a more liberal direction.
Extremely naive poll. Unless this is to call out all who answer positively.
Extremely naive poll. Unless this is to call out all who answer positively.
Im totally blown away by all the complaints about this. What's so difficult about it? You just have to say -overall- how do you feel about your country's future? Honestly, it's just that simple.... either you think it looks good or bad.
Yes, there can be both good and bad things happening, but you're expected to weigh them and come up with an overall assessment. If you somehow cant manage that, dont vote. :dizzy2:
Kanamori
04-06-2006, 12:17
Overall, I'm disappointed and bothered by many of the policies that have always been in the States and their hypocrisy but we're not a hole in the ground. We have what tends to matter most for good life, a strong economy, and the future in that area looks good with our businesses spreading to developing areas. Unfortunately, I think we have come to be too dependant on foreign trade for manufactoring, and something must be done about the enormous deficit in trade -- nothing "protectionist" will do -- but the economy cannot remain strong unless we produce more and sell more abroad.
Kagemusha
04-06-2006, 16:40
Overall im positive in the direction of my country. But there are lots of issues still i dont agree with the Government and specially EU.
Watchman
04-06-2006, 16:45
I kinda like the EU you know. Sure it's clunky and weird and unwieldy and hardly ever does quite what everyone'd like it to (which shouldn't be too surprising, given that this tends to mainly consist of some variation of "gimme mo' money"...), but it gets points for the sheer novelty value and effort.
Plus it's helped keep the Brits, French and Germans off each others' throats and actually cooperating (to some degree anyway) instead. That's a definite plus, given the track record of those three.
Kagemusha
04-06-2006, 17:01
I kinda like the EU you know. Sure it's clunky and weird and unwieldy and hardly ever does quite what everyone'd like it to (which shouldn't be too surprising, given that this tends to mainly consist of some variation of "gimme mo' money"...), but it gets points for the sheer novelty value and effort.
Plus it's helped keep the Brits, French and Germans off each others' throats and actually cooperating (to some degree anyway) instead. That's a definite plus, given the track record of those three.
I agree that the idea is not bad and also that it has kept for its part the Big Nations from fighting eachother.I just think it needs massive reforms for it to work.
Im totally blown away by all the complaints about this. What's so difficult about it? You just have to say -overall- how do you feel about your country's future? Honestly, it's just that simple.... either you think it looks good or bad.
Yes, there can be both good and bad things happening, but you're expected to weigh them and come up with an overall assessment. If you somehow cant manage that, dont vote. :dizzy2:
Well you didn't convince me. The area you're talking about isn't what bothers me, in fact to me its a moot point.
Let me clarify: How about we travel to Europe in the feudal age and ask the peasants if they are satisfied with the overall direction of their country?
What is worse, now, is that even the aristocrats are "peasants"... and the most ignoble are "aristocrats".
Watchman
04-06-2006, 17:25
I agree that the idea is not bad and also that it has kept for its part the Big Nations from fighting eachother.I just think it needs massive reforms for it to work.*shrug* It's been "work in progress" for its entire existence. Crisis management and adaptation seems to have been the basic method of making progress, which isn't all that odd given it's something that hasn't really ever been tried before so the whole thing's being done on a trial-and-error basis.
Proletariat
04-06-2006, 17:53
My Senior Membership reaches back even to the Elder Days...
Congratulations on me noticing. ~;p
Goofball
04-06-2006, 18:06
Im totally blown away by all the complaints about this. What's so difficult about it? You just have to say -overall- how do you feel about your country's future? Honestly, it's just that simple.... either you think it looks good or bad.
Yes, there can be both good and bad things happening, but you're expected to weigh them and come up with an overall assessment. If you somehow cant manage that, dont vote. :dizzy2:
I agree.
Don't like the poll?
Too easy: Don't vote.
And if you still feel the need to complain about the poll after not having taken part in it, then please allow me to offer you a nice glass of shut your whining cake-hole.
:bounce:
What's the problem? What I said was both relevant and cuts deep. In this open forum the merits of my statement validate it. So maybe if you don't like it... you know the rest.
Ser Clegane
04-06-2006, 19:25
I'm somewhat negative about the prospects and the direction of Germany, because too many people on this country are to negative when thinking about the future.
Uhm ... does this make any sense?
But seriously, I think over the past decades we developed too many people in Germany focused on whining and complaining about how bad everything is, instead of showing some optimism and doing something.
The problem is, that continued whining and complaining can almost paralyse and will rather accelerate a downwards trend.
It might be that our current grand coalition will be able to trigger some changes as they can (in theory) make a lot of decisions without facing a lot of opposition, however, I am a bit sceptical that they really manage to get the ball rolling.
Regarding the value of the poll - I think it is a very valid way to check
a) the overall sentiment in a specific country (which can be a good indicator of were things will actually go in the next years)
b) how countries compare with each other
Reenk Roink
04-06-2006, 20:06
"Never" is not very long it appears.
Minus one point for lack of resolve.
Hmm...perhaps it did not occur to you, but I was speaking of your polls...
Minus 1 (no 2) points for arrogance...
A tradition that is inane is its own refutation.
Ahh...isn't everything... :dizzy2:
It is easier to say that than to actually refute something...
Sjakihata
04-06-2006, 20:59
Hmm...perhaps it did not occur to you, but I was speaking of your polls...
Minus 1 (no 2) points for arrogance...
Ahh...isn't everything... :dizzy2:
It is easier to say that than to actually refute something...
Still never is not long, as you replied right there... :oops:
Reenk Roink
04-06-2006, 21:23
Still never is not long, as you replied right there... :oops:
:wall:
Wow...:no:
OK, my mistake, I meant the the polls, but worded it wrong...
Enough nitpicking...
Gah is Great...
Kralizec
04-06-2006, 23:12
I decided to give the poll a chance, until I noticed this:
Netherlands: I'm positive about the prospects of the nation and its direction.
Netherlands: I'm positive about the prospects of the nation and its direction.
Did our government offer you extravagant sums of cash for this poll, Pindar? ~;)
Well you didn't convince me. The area you're talking about isn't what bothers me, in fact to me its a moot point.
Let me clarify: How about we travel to Europe in the feudal age and ask the peasants if they are satisfied with the overall direction of their country?
What is worse, now, is that even the aristocrats are "peasants"... and the most ignoble are "aristocrats".
So, your hostile to any poll that asks how a person feels about their nation's future prospects because unless we assume they have the power to change things we should never ask their feelings? How odd. Putting aside the obvious practical check such a critique encounters in a nation with suffrage, I guess the real issue is why does any praxis have to inform asking about a person's feelings on a thing?
Hmm...perhaps it did not occur to you, but I was speaking of your polls...
There was no qualifier. The statement was "never reply to Pindar again" Now given your amended stance fails under its own criteria that means a failure of resolve twice over. Alas.
Let's see:
And arrogance is broken...
and
Minus 1 (no 2) points for arrogance...
Two personal slights in successive posts to me.
Minus one point for repeated personal attacks.
Minus one point for lack originality in using the point deduction tracker.
Your not doing very well. Best to just focus on the poll and your sense for your nation's future.
I decided to give the poll a chance, until I noticed this:
Did our government offer you extravagant sums of cash for this poll, Pindar? ~;)
Oops! If you want to post an opinion just consider the top one positive and the bottom negative. It doesn't seem I can correct the poll choices. Of course! Given the wherewithal of the Dutch so that even the sea is forced to retreat before their resolve one option is probably all that is needed.
Reenk Roink
04-07-2006, 02:00
There was no qualifier. The statement was "never reply to Pindar again" Now given your amended stance fails under its own criteria that means a failure of resolve twice over. Alas.
Lets keep this in mind when...
Two personal slights in successive posts to me.
Minus one point for repeated personal attacks.
Ah...yes...
Woe to me
Villain as I am
For vilifying thee
With personal spam
Sadly, these statements were ignored by you:
Gah is for the retarded.
Very humble of you. May we all feel "retarded" for following such a "inane" tradition.
Minus one point for lack of resolve.
Yes, please, deduct points from me by pointing out my lacking characteristics, I shall still hold you above personal attacks...
Minus one point for lack originality in using the point deduction tracker.
Another one gone. Man, with all these deductions, my worth as a person really goes down. Too bad I am just so lacking in originality as well. This point system is truly genius. So sublime that my mockery of it was seen as imitation.
This cannot be a personal attack, as I just dont add up to a person anymore :no:....
Your not doing very well. Best to just focus on the poll and your sense for your nation's future.
Was I now? Well, I thought I was doing very well, but, alas, your observation is of more import. Very well, I would focus on the poll, but I fear that it would only expose more of my lacking resolve, as I had previously stated twice that I would not respond to Pindar polls...
Whoops, this post was its own refutation...:dizzy2:
I see the oppositionism continues.
I shall still hold you above personal attacks...
I've made no personal attacks. I simply pointed out "Gah" is for the retarded. No particular retard has been indicated. I also pointed out Gah is inane. That "Gah" is inane says nothing about any specific individual.
Was I now? Well, I thought I was doing very well, but, alas, your observation is of more import.
Actually the proper grammar is: "Aren't I now?"
LeftEyeNine
04-07-2006, 03:27
This "Oh-I'm-so-wise-and-full-of-knowledge-that-I-feel-invincible" game bores the hell out of the ones interested in the topic.
Gah is great and my opinion is not to be replied by over-wisemen. I feel humble from the birth. ("Retarded" maybe..Oh sure you shouldn't reply, I did not point out a particular wiseman. )
Reenk Roink
04-07-2006, 14:08
I see the oppositionism continues.
Evidently...
I've made no personal attacks. I simply pointed out "Gah" is for the retarded. No particular retard has been indicated. I also pointed out Gah is inane. That "Gah" is inane says nothing about any specific individual.
Sadly, you missed a great amount of my post which dealt with your personal attacks...
Actually the proper grammar is: "Aren't I now?"
Oh no! :shocked3:
Hopefully you dont take off points...
Now you have opened up a new window of criticism. Sadly, it is also a desperate window. As I recall, in this statement "Your not doing very well." The 'Your' should be 'You are' or 'You're'. My it be known, that although I make mistakes, others do as well...
R'as al Ghul
04-07-2006, 14:25
I've casted a proper vote, but out of sympathy for the retarded I say:
GAH!
~:cheers:
UglyandHasty
04-07-2006, 14:30
Gah Canadian positive Gah !
Sjakihata
04-07-2006, 15:32
Gah!
I simply pointed out "Gah" is for the retarded. ... I also pointed out Gah is inane.
You say that as if it's a bad thing.
Gah!
Tribesman
04-07-2006, 15:48
HaG
So retarded that I cannot even spell agH
Sadly, you missed a great amount of my post which dealt with your personal attacks...
Is this an example of dealing with it?
"Woe to me
Villain as I am
For vilifying thee
With personal spam"
One shouldn't confuse a post with a proper reply.
Now you have opened up a new window of criticism. Sadly, it is also a desprate window. As I recall, in this statement "Your not doing very well." The 'Your' should be 'You are' or 'You're'. My it be known, that although I make mistakes, others do as well...
I know, I actually went back and edited the "you're" to "your" to see if you would pick up on it and reply like you have. Very telling. But everyone certainly does make mistakes.
Ser Clegane
04-07-2006, 18:00
Is there any chance that the actual topic of this thread will be discussed?
This is getting a bit silly - and I am inclined to put an end to it...
You say that as if it's a bad thing.
I just find an intense loyalty to a single word odd. I can't even recall how often I've seen comments like "there is no gah so I can't/won't reply". I remember other polls going way back where if the pollster didn't include the option then somehow both he and the poll were flawed. I decided from that time forward never to use it in any poll I might make. The whole attitude seems inane to me. The fact so many here treat this as an issue is illustrative.
Is there any chance that the actual topic of this thread will be discussed?
Probably not. The gah loyalists are determined. Such is the power of dogma.
I just find an intense loyalty to a single word odd. I can't even recall how often I've seen comments like "there is no gah so I can't/won't reply". I remember other polls going way back where if the pollster didn't include the option then somehow both he and the poll were flawed. I decided from that time forward never to use it in any poll I might make. The whole attitude seems inane to me. The fact so many here treat this as an issue is illustrative.
I'm now inclined to agree.
Eye rolls all around for the turn this thread has taken. :rolleyes:
Sjakihata
04-07-2006, 19:57
The gah loyalists are determined. Such is the power of dogma.
Oh, it's not a dogma, it's a theorem, proved by a priori synthetic knowledge.
I proclaim the transcendental Gah!
Reenk Roink
04-07-2006, 20:44
I know, I actually went back and edited the "you're" to "your" to see if you would pick up on it and reply like you have. Very telling. But everyone certainly does make mistakes.
Unbelievable...
First, you accuse me of personal attacks, despite the fact that several were from you, and now you accuse me of pointing out bad grammar, although my reply was in response to you doing the exact thing.
O why am I
Accused of villainy?
From the guy
Steeped in hypocrisy
Also, what is "very telling" is the fact that you purposely edited a baiting attempt into your post, in order that I would reply, and when I didn't, you actually called me out on a grammar problem as a second baiting attempt...
Very deep plotting, don't you think? I am as perplexed with that particular course of action as you are with the "Gah loyalists" ...
Unbelievable...
First, you accuse me of personal attacks, despite the fact that several were from you, and now you accuse me of pointing out bad grammar, although my reply was in response to you doing the exact thing.
O why am I
Accused of villainy?
From the guy
Steeped in hypocrisy
Why ask Why?
Oh, it's not a dogma, it's a theorem, proved by a priori synthetic knowledge.
I proclaim the transcendental Gah!
That was from an earlier draft of the First Critique which Kant then rejected as an empty concept.
Louis VI the Fat
04-07-2006, 21:09
Negative. In eight-year-old style: France drastically needs some reforms, especially in the economy, especially in labour laws. President is a lame duck. Prime minister tries to show off with a solution to the massive protests of last year: new labour law that would mean less youth unemployment to increase integration. It is the wrong law at the wrong time by the wrong person. Even more massive protests follow. PM is a lame duck now too. Reform from the right therefore unfeasable. After all of this the left will certainly not go into the elections next year with a program of economic reform. So nothing will change when change is what is needed most, country will fall behind even more, making people even more uncertain, which makes them cling on even more to current social rights. So:
Pwnd.
Louis VI the Fat
04-07-2006, 21:10
But I am positive about the prospects of the nation of Gah and its direction.
Unbelievable...
First, you accuse me of personal attacks...
Charging someone repeatedly of arrogance is a personal attack. Noting a person's lack of resolve when that person sets his own standard is not.
Also, what is "very telling" is the fact that you purposely edited a baiting attempt into your post, in order that I would reply, and when I didn't, you actually called me out on a grammar problem as a second baiting attempt...
I know, and despite it being obvious you fell for it.
Very deep plotting, don't you think?
I have to entertain myself in the face of entrenched dogmatism: all the more given I suggested the actual topic be the focus but was ignored.
Now, if you would like to return to the actual topic I promise not to treat you like a cartoon.
Negative. In eight-year-old style: France drastically needs some reforms, especially in the economy, especially in labour laws. President is a lame duck. Prime minister tries to show off with a solution to the massive protests of last year: new labour law that would mean less youth unemployment to increase integration. It is the wrong law at the wrong time by the wrong person. Even more massive protests follow. PM is a lame duck now too. Reform from the right therefore unfeasable. After all of this the left will certainly not go into the elections next year with a program of economic reform. So nothing will change when change is what is needed most, country will fall behind even more, making people even more uncertain, which makes them cling on even more to current social rights. So:
Pwnd.
Do most French want a more flexible economic model?
Divinus Arma
04-07-2006, 22:08
Oh man. This thread went off the deep end.
I like the topic. Let's focus on the topic.
I hereby declare the war of petty philosophers over. And the winner is...
...all of us in the backroom, since the silly posturing and one-up-manship is over. :2thumbsup:
I know France is also suffering under immigration problems, especially middle eastern males. How does the economic situation relate for you in that respect? I know they aren't "doing the jobs the French won't do".
Reenk Roink
04-07-2006, 22:09
Charging someone repeatedly of arrogance is a personal attack. Noting a person's lack of resolve when that person sets his own standard is not.
If that is your logic, than noting one's arrogance falls under the same category. As does taking "points" off...
I know, and despite it being obvious you fell for it.
Nice turn around. I fell for nothing, rather, I pointed out the second instance of hypocrisy on your part.
I have to entertain myself in the face of entrenched dogmatism: all the more given I suggested the actual topic be the focus but was ignored.
As do I. Seeing how only a few responses of this topic, have actually been on topic, I applaud you efforts to continue and steer it back on topic.
Now, if you would like to return to the actual topic I promise not to treat you like a cartoon.
You may treat me how you like or say what you want. It is of no consequence to me. However, it surely does a good job of bringing out certain inherent qualities that you posses.
EDIT: Whoops Div, I missed your post... :tongue2:
Divinus Arma
04-07-2006, 22:14
Well edit it away man. You both win. Or lose. It's pointless. This is a good topic.
Know when to take it to the PM box. :bow:
edit: Thats not too bad Reenk. Thanks.
Ser Clegane
04-07-2006, 22:23
Know when to take it to the PM box. :bow:
I agree - if you would like to continue your personal discussion, please use other means that this thread.
Louis VI the Fat
04-07-2006, 22:31
Do most French want a more flexible economic model?That question translates into French as: 'Should France succumb to a neo-liberal Anglosaxon model?'
Read her forehead for an answer:
https://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5484/non4kt.jpg
Or read their lips:
https://img56.imageshack.us/img56/2659/non5ah.png
Divinus Arma
04-07-2006, 22:37
I know France is also suffering under immigration problems, especially middle eastern males. How does the economic situation relate for you in that respect? I know they aren't "doing the jobs the French won't do".
...tryin again...
Hey Louis!
Kralizec
04-07-2006, 23:03
Oops! If you want to post an opinion just consider the top one positive and the bottom negative. It doesn't seem I can correct the poll choices. Of course! Given the wherewithal of the Dutch so that even the sea is forced to retreat before their resolve one option is probably all that is needed.
It sure would be fun if you could change the poll options after a whole bunch of people have already voted :laugh4:
Louis VI the Fat
04-08-2006, 00:06
http://matousmileys.free.fr/megafon.gifHey Louis!
I know France is also suffering under immigration problems, especially middle eastern males. How does the economic situation relate for you in that respect? I know they aren't "doing the jobs the French won't do".The Poles are doing the jobs the French won't do. But I don't mind them, in fact I love any guest workers. If you've got a skill that is wanted, if you can do a proper job for a competitive price - by all means come over and earn yourself some decent money.
On a personal scale, either an immigrant is well-integrated, in which case he's not detrimental to my personal economic situation but a source of wealth, or he isn't, in which case he's not an economic competitor at all.
But on a larger scale, I'm not that thrilled to indefinitely carry the burden for an immigrant underclass that constitutes over 10% of the total population, and I don't care where they are from.
The problems with immigrants are a strain, but neither they themselves nor immigration itself are the cause of France's malaise. The immigration issues are only a part of a much greater general feeling of decline.
The Economist has a great article in line with this thread: 'France faces the future'. (http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=6744226)
The country's politicians need to level with the French people on the need to embrace change
“THE French constitute the most brilliant and the most dangerous nation in Europe and the best qualified in turn to become an object of admiration, hatred, pity or terror but never indifference.” Thus did a young Alexis de Tocqueville describe his motherland in the early 19th century. His words still carry a haunting truth. Over the past few years, as other western democracies have shuffled quietly along, France has by turns stunned, exasperated and bemused.
Do give it a read if you are interested in this subject, it is excellent.
Soulforged
04-08-2006, 00:15
https://img56.imageshack.us/img56/2659/non5ah.png
Che Guevara as a symbol of protest in Europe???? WOW I didn't know he expanded so well. I wonder, and maybe you can tell me, just as an emotional figure, because El Che reprents other ideologies, but why not Rousseau, Proudhon, Voltaire, or the other thousand philosophers that made France so famous?
Divinus Arma
04-08-2006, 00:25
That was good. It provides an important window into European concepts of liberal and conservative, which, of course, are indeed very different from the U.S. definitions of those two phrases.
The Economist is a good mag.
LeftEyeNine
04-08-2006, 00:33
Soulforged, Che has fans in Turkey no less than he does in Europe. He is the symbol of revolution globally indeed.
Soulforged
04-08-2006, 01:01
Soulforged, Che has fans in Turkey no less than he does in Europe. He is the symbol of revolution globally indeed.
Interesting LEN, it puts everything in perspective, a globalized perspective.
Louis VI the Fat
04-08-2006, 01:16
Che Guevara as a symbol of protest in Europe???? WOW I didn't know he expanded so well. I wonder, and maybe you can tell me, just as an emotional figure, because El Che reprents other ideologies, but why not Rousseau, Proudhon, Voltaire, or the other thousand philosophers that made France so famous?Because El Che has the looks of a rockstar and Rousseau that of a creepy old man?
You didn't know that that Che Guevara picture is such an icon? It's as famous as Mickey Mouse's ears or a Coca-Cola bottle. Che Guevara must be one of the globalised world's most lucrative brands. I hope that by some delightful irony Guevara's relatives are secretly making a fortune out of selling all those 'El Che' t-shirts, flags and buttons to those no-logo anti-globalists. :balloon2:
That question translates into French as: 'Should France succumb to a neo-liberal Anglosaxon model?'
From the Economist:
"...the objective of the students and public-sector trade unions is to prevent change, and to keep France the way it is."
"In another startling poll, however, whereas 71% of Americans, 66% of the British and 65% of Germans agreed that the free market was the best system available, the number in France was just 36%. The French seem to be uniquely hostile to the capitalist system that has made them the world's fifth richest country and generated so many first-rate French companies."
"The choice belongs to France. A bold effort at renewal that could unleash the best in the French? Or a stubborn defence of the existing order that will keep France a middling world power in economic decline? "
Do you think France will opt for the "stubborn defence" noted above? Is there an alternative being discussed in French political circles that has any following?
It sure would be fun if you could change the poll options after a whole bunch of people have already voted :laugh4:
That would make polls much more interesting. ~;)
If that is your logic, than noting one's arrogance falls under the same category. As does taking "points" off...
Nice turn around. I fell for nothing, rather, I pointed out the second instance of hypocrisy on your part.
As do I. Seeing how only a few responses of this topic, have actually been on topic, I applaud you efforts to continue and steer it back on topic.
You may treat me how you like or say what you want. It is of no consequence to me. However, it surely does a good job of bringing out certain inherent qualities that you posses.
EDIT.
~:grouphug:
Louis VI the Fat
04-08-2006, 03:35
Is there an alternative being discussed in French political circles that has any following?As usual, France has the alternative of putting her destiny in the hands of an agressive foreign midget with delusions of grandeur: Nicolas 'maybe France is wrong, and the rest of the world is right' Sarkozy.
Sarko. (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/sarkozy)
He is one of the main contenders for the presidency next year. Highly controversial, he is loathed by the left. As he's a Gaullist, he's not my natural prefered candidate, but I can't help but enjoy his style.
And he did Chirac's daughter once. :laugh4:
Tribesman
04-08-2006, 08:52
And he did Chirac's daughter once.
And Chirac being Chirac will probably be wanting to do Sarkozys daughter , wife and mother .
Switzerland. We'll do fine, I think.
No time to write anything more comprehensible. My apologies.
Quid
Soulforged
04-08-2006, 17:59
Because El Che has the looks of a rockstar and Rousseau that of a creepy old man?Oh but Rousseau was a young man once, with the spirit of a rockstar.~;)
You didn't know that that Che Guevara picture is such an icon? It's as famous as Mickey Mouse's ears or a Coca-Cola bottle. Che Guevara must be one of the globalised world's most lucrative brands. I hope that by some delightful irony Guevara's relatives are secretly making a fortune out of selling all those 'El Che' t-shirts, flags and buttons to those no-logo anti-globalists.I did, what I didn't know was that his symbols were used in Europe as well. You see I'm an alien to Europe beyond TV images (and I usually don't watch news) and books.
Louis VI the Fat
04-08-2006, 20:11
Switzerland. We'll do fine, I think.
No time to write anything more comprehensible. My apologies.Gah, there's never a need to write anything more than: 'Switzerland, it'll do fine'. :shame:
It always does. There is planet earth on the one hand, with all it's ups-and-downs, upheavals, wars. And then there is Switzerland, 300 kilometers of solid, unshakable granite.
Gah, there's never a need to write anything more than: 'Switzerland, it'll do fine'. :shame:
It always does. There is planet earth on the one hand, with all it's ups-and-downs, upheavals, wars. And then there is Switzerland, 300 kilometers of solid, unshakable granite.
Yes, it's good to live here. :2thumbsup: At times, though, I wished we had some student upheavals or something.
I suppose, we will hit the news at the World Cup when we throw France out of the competition...:laugh4: (To add, since we're clearly too stupid to hold our own against English club level we have to beat someone...).
Quid
We'll do fine as long as we are able to stay out of the European Udder.
At second thought: there is no need to pull in the oars if a membership becomes reality. We’ll do fine nevertheless.
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.