View Full Version : New unit at the .com: Huscarls
ivoignob
04-07-2006, 16:52
http://www.totalwar.com/community/hus.htm
Furious Mental
04-07-2006, 17:06
I was hoping for a bloody great two handed axe but looks good nonetheless
edyzmedieval
04-07-2006, 17:07
They look nice....
But what are they fighting with? :inquisitive:
Duke John
04-07-2006, 17:08
Don't worry, they will of course perform a jump and twirl attack for pure awesomness! :wink:
But what are they fighting with?
An one-handed axe perhaps...
Zatoichi
04-07-2006, 17:10
Very nice - I imagine that with the multiple heads you can stick on these units, at least some will end up with helmets.
Now we can start up a 'horned helmets are not historical' thread, just like in the old days! :2thumbsup:
Darren_Shan
04-07-2006, 17:36
wow these own!:2thumbsup:
Wowee, I can almost smell the blood these guys will procure from the enemy. Look great.
The_Doctor
04-07-2006, 18:02
Strangely enough I am reading an Osprey book about Medieval Scandinavain Armies 1300 to 1500. I just finished 1100 to 1300.
He needs:
A helmet.
A bigger shield, maybe with a guige, and maybe it should be a different shape as well.
A bigger axe or a sword.
The sleeves on the hauberk could be longer to protect his lower arms.
Mail mittens to protect his hands.
Some slits along the sides of the botton of the hauberk, so he can move better.
Other than that it is fine.
Strangely enough I am reading an Osprey book about Medieval Scandinavain Armies 1300 to 1500. I just finished 1100 to 1300.
He needs:
A helmet.
A bigger shield, maybe with a guige, and maybe it should be a different shape as well.
A bigger axe or a sword.
The sleeves on the hauberk could be longer to protect his lower arms.
Mail mittens to protect his hands.
Some slits along the sides of the botton of the hauberk, so he can move better.
Other than that it is fine.
All that having been said, for a TW game it's great. There'll be variety among the unit of these troops anyway so some of those things are bound to show up. Even if not, I'm still happy. Medieval Auctoriso'll take care of it ~;) .
lancelot
04-07-2006, 18:13
Nice lookin unit.
All I really wanna see is the Varangian Guard, those guys are gonna kick serious ass! (and I want the ahistorical fancy armour from the MTW1 info parchment...that was so sweet!)
The_Doctor
04-07-2006, 18:22
All that having been said, for a TW game it's great. There'll be variety among the unit of these troops anyway so some of those things are bound to show up. Even if not, I'm still happy. Medieval Auctoriso'll take care of it .
Maybe I will look at this mod.
If they are royal troopes they should be called hirdmen.
That unit looks awesome, love it!
Dutch_guy
04-07-2006, 18:50
If these are going to be the equivilant of berserkers in Rome then this is a great improvement - these Huscarls look less cartoony than the Rome berserkers.
:balloon2:
Darren_Shan
04-07-2006, 18:50
same with me:2thumbsup:
It is funny that such an axe has never been used in Denmark for war.
There is a reason there is a weapon called the 'danish' axe... why on Earth not use it? Or the 'bearded' axe??? They had it quite well done for the pictures of the units in VI (or even the Viking in MTW).
Well, I just don't like him very much. Nothing with him tells me he is a Huscarl, just and armoured man with an axe and a small shield.
This is not nitpicking, this is downright out of the question. This man is NOT a huscarl.
Divinus Arma
04-08-2006, 07:13
This man is NOT a huscarl.
Then show us one. :balloon2:
I like this one. My fave so far. I think the "pretty factor" is astounding but I am most considered about gameplay. Improving seige balance is probably my biggest concern. In RTW it was nearly impossible to lose a seige when defending. On the attack it was also far too easy because the AI units acted with no regard to their own safety. Not even basic strategy. Major immersion and fun killer.
New pic at the com:
https://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9545/mtw2139pp.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
The_Doctor
04-08-2006, 11:05
Then show us one.
http://www.regia.org/huscarl.htm
Maybe some of the other models will have that look. In any case, I still love the unit.
Divinus, there's a whole topic about that pic here somewhere. Plenty of similar discussions about that unit with it's bulky lance and whatnot. Ah, humanity. How predictable.
Furious Mental
04-08-2006, 15:36
A Danish axe and/ or a great big kite shield would go down a treat. Hopefully they will be able to form a shield wall. Also a mercenary unit would be good.
Darren_Shan
04-08-2006, 17:05
wow those cav look great!
A Danish axe and/ or a great big kite shield would go down a treat. Hopefully they will be able to form a shield wall. Also a mercenary unit would be good.
A shieldwall with those shields? You have got to be kidding me.
I'm glad that you guys like this unit, but I don't. I would prefer if he was called Armoured Axeman since he seems to be in line with the Swordsman.
A Huscarl was the supreme warrior of the king (of course the king's bodyguards might be better). There is no chance he would be without a proper helmet or a big shield (round or kite). This man is an odd mix of a lower level warrior and a nobleman. The hauberk is noble but the rest is lower level.
The axe is as I said very odd, such an axe was just not used. Why not use the plethora of axes that were used instead of making up an axe that just looks foolish? Bah!
The shield... Ahhh... The simple fact is that the shield was considered the most important piece of equipment if you had it all (of course it wouldn't help you much if you had no weapon). Without the big shield you couldn't form the shield wall, which was the main formation. Individual fighting (in battle) was, as always rather unlikely, when it happened it was mainly done with twohanded axes.
This man can't enter a shield wall because his shield is too small to offer enough protection when it is immobile, and his axe is simply too small to offer him any advantage in a fight.
Give him a bow and sling the shield onto his back and I might be willing to accept him as some sort of Royal Archer.
Orda Khan
04-08-2006, 20:22
A shieldwall with those shields? You have got to be kidding me.
I'm glad that you guys like this unit, but I don't. I would prefer if he was called Armoured Axeman since he seems to be in line with the Swordsman.
A Huscarl was the supreme warrior of the king (of course the king's bodyguards might be better). There is no chance he would be without a proper helmet or a big shield (round or kite). This man is an odd mix of a lower level warrior and a nobleman. The hauberk is noble but the rest is lower level.
The axe is as I said very odd, such an axe was just not used. Why not use the plethora of axes that were used instead of making up an axe that just looks foolish? Bah!
The shield... Ahhh... The simple fact is that the shield was considered the most important piece of equipment if you had it all (of course it wouldn't help you much if you had no weapon). Without the big shield you couldn't form the shield wall, which was the main formation. Individual fighting (in battle) was, as always rather unlikely, when it happened it was mainly done with twohanded axes.
This man can't enter a shield wall because his shield is too small to offer enough protection when it is immobile, and his axe is simply too small to offer him any advantage in a fight.
Give him a bow and sling the shield onto his back and I might be willing to accept him as some sort of Royal Archer.
Ditto
......Orda
The_Doctor
04-08-2006, 20:25
I had already said more or less the same thing in my first post.
I thought huscarls had gone obsolete by the medieval period?
Divinus Arma
04-08-2006, 20:59
Interesting. Thanks The Doctor, for providing me with that link. I can see your arguments now. Maybe there will be a more advanced huscarl and this is a lower nobility unit.
Is the time period early enought to have these guys?
Alexanderofmacedon
04-08-2006, 21:13
Hopefully this will get me interested in Medieval history. I already know a bit about the crusades, but I'm lost other than that...:help:
I agree that while the unit looks cool, there's no way that's a Huscarle. Any other inaccuracies aside, the axe and shield are both far too small. [sigh] Oh well. I'm sure someone will fix it soon enough after the game comes out.
Divinus Arma
04-08-2006, 22:52
Wouldn't a larger axe be virtually impossible to weild with one hand? Think of the weight. It would be cumbersome and difficult to control. It's balance with the heavy metal end makes it even more of a challenge to handle with proficiency. I think that the challenge of using the weapon effectivley is compounded by the presence of other folks in your unit all doing the same thing. It would be like herding cats.
The_Doctor
04-08-2006, 23:45
Wouldn't a larger axe be virtually impossible to weild with one hand? Think of the weight. It would be cumbersome and difficult to control. It's balance with the heavy metal end makes it even more of a challenge to handle with proficiency. I think that the challenge of using the weapon effectivley is compounded by the presence of other folks in your unit all doing the same thing. It would be like herding cats.
The Danish axe, which the "huscarl" should have, is a blood big two-handed axe.
This should answer you question:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_axe
Wouldn't a larger axe be virtually impossible to weild with one hand? Think of the weight. It would be cumbersome and difficult to control. It's balance with the heavy metal end makes it even more of a challenge to handle with proficiency. I think that the challenge of using the weapon effectivley is compounded by the presence of other folks in your unit all doing the same thing. It would be like herding cats.
Yes, but like the Varangians they didn't use them at the same time. The shield was usually slung onto the back when the axe was being wielded in two hands.
In formation the first rank would use their swords (which they all carried in addition to the axe) instead, and the next rank their axes. Pretty nasty results.
Of course javelins were not uncommon while in formation either.
Interestingly RTW couldn't handle shields being slung onto the back, while MTW certainly could (Varangians of both types, Swabian Swordsmen, Huscarls of both types and of course the Jomsvikings). Perhaps that is where the real problem lies? They haven't been able to recreate the situation in MTW?
In any case Huscarls had both big axes and large shields.
[EDIT] Something I just realized was, that the unit presented is somehow both heavy infantry and at te same time a mobile light infantryman. He does not fit into the center of a battle (where he can't use his mobility as well), his equipment tells me he should be on the flanks, a position Huscarls never had.
Alexander the Pretty Good
04-09-2006, 00:52
The historically-accurate 2-handed swords would have looked flashier than this unhistorical unit.
~:rolleyes:
Furious Mental
04-09-2006, 05:17
It would actually be rather good if rather than just having soldiers use different armour they could use a variety of different weapons. In William of Poitiers the English chuck all manner of things at the Normans- javelins, darts, axes and clubs (?). Anyway it doesn't really matter to me that CA has given him a tiny shield. I hope that the shield wall will make a return anyway. If the game is set up anything like RTW it will only take about five minutes to make a huscarl with a nice big kite shield.
I thought huscarls had gone obsolete by the medieval period?
Obsolete is not the right word. The Saxon Huscarles were some of the most feared warriors of Europe before William the Conquerer destroyed them. It is more that this kind of professional unit did not fit into feudalism very well. The Huscarles and other Vikings simply disappeared during the middle ages.
Graphically the unit isn't bad, but a bit uninspired. We already seen dozens of this kind of unit in the screenshots. A real huscarl with distinctive big shield and axe would be nicer.
In MTW, the Danes had several levels of early infantry.
Thralls were like peasant spearmen levies.
Carls were chain armored guys with small round shields and hatchet-like axes
Landsmen were better-armored than Carls with bigger shields and weapons
Huscarls were the equivalent of Early Royal Foot Knights. Slow because of all their armor, with huge shields and 1-2 handed axes.
The image looks like a Carl, not a Huscarl.
Furious Mental
04-09-2006, 14:54
Vikings and Huscarls weren't the same thing. Arguably the final development of armies of professional warriors loyal to a national monarchy augured the end of the Viking Age.
Kagemusha
04-09-2006, 15:13
To me that unit looks more like a well armoured man at arms, armed with wood cutting axe.I would be happier if the man would look more like this:
https://img460.imageshack.us/img460/4162/vikingwaxe5ny.jpg
Here is also a picture from reenactment of use of the Viking axe,see the shield in the back of the opponents like Kraxis mentioned:
https://img460.imageshack.us/img460/9088/axefightbig7nh.jpg
To me that unit looks more like a well armoured man at arms, armed with wood cutting axe.I would be happier if the man would look more like this:
https://img460.imageshack.us/img460/4162/vikingwaxe5ny.jpg
Yeah, that guy fits the bill of a Danish Huscarl better than the other guy, who is arguably a Saxon. But either of them would be preferable.
hellenes
04-09-2006, 17:26
The historically-accurate 2-handed swords would have looked flashier than this unhistorical unit.
~:rolleyes:
No way.
Uninspired cheap Holywood tricks are far more preferable...
Crazed Rabbit
04-09-2006, 19:02
That looks like an axeman, not a huscarle.
And speaking of short weapons, the armored swordsman looks like he has a gladius. Definately not a 'longsword'.
Crazed Rabbit
Maybe there's something buggy with CA's weapon renderer. That's two new units with unusually small weapons in a row.
Oh wait, maybe that is how they plan to fix the too-high kill rate in RTW. Smaller weapons kill slower. :-)
Furious Mental
04-10-2006, 03:49
It's actually kind of funny because you would think the rather liberal attitude which CA generally takes to history would lead to the conclusion that a big axe is better than a small one.
:laugh4:
Yeah... This just goes to show how CA can surprise us on an everyday basis.
Maybe there's something buggy with CA's weapon renderer. That's two new units with unusually small weapons in a row.
Oh wait, maybe that is how they plan to fix the too-high kill rate in RTW. Smaller weapons kill slower. :-)
LOL! :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
You know, though, I almost have to wonder if there really is something wrong with how weapons are being rendered. I can't find the screenshot now, but I remember seeing one pic where some English infantry were wielding spears that were only about 5-6 feet long. Now I'm by no means an expert on medieval weaponry, but shouldn't spears be at least a bit longer than that?
Divine Wind
04-13-2006, 17:19
LOL! :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
You know, though, I almost have to wonder if there really is something wrong with how weapons are being rendered. I can't find the screenshot now, but I remember seeing one pic where some English infantry were wielding spears that were only about 5-6 feet long. Now I'm by no means an expert on medieval weaponry, but shouldn't spears be at least a bit longer than that?
Yes your right, your average spear should be between about 6 - 9 feet, and later on went upto around 12 feet in length. Then of course came the pike.
Perhaps that Huscarl is disguised as a resource gatherer. :laugh4:
Special ability: Hides well in forests, disguised as lumberjacks.
Woad Warrior
04-13-2006, 19:03
Well at Bannockburn, the early 1300's, the Scots and English Spearmen had mostly 12 ft spears.
DukeofSerbia
04-13-2006, 19:25
I have at home some nice Viking pictures in book about Vikings. I may post that if is allowed (only parts of 2-3 pages). I will quote resource.
Watchman
04-13-2006, 22:32
Huscarles would've fought with the usual mix of spears, swords, and axes. The big Danish axes were AFAIK a bit of a special-purpose weapon, the majority tending to prefer the trusty (and rather safer) spear, shield and sword and/or small axe approach.
Being able to put a shield in the way of an incoming spearhead being somewhat popular, you see.
Shieldwalls are doable with just about anything bigger than a buckler, incidentally. The Anglo-Saxons in the Bayeux Tapestry seem to be doing it a lot with kite-shields, and the pavesari of the Italian communal militias more or less copied wholesale the ancient Persian spara wall concept with their huge shields and long spears.
But I'll happily admit the fellow in the pic has a pretty weird-looking axe, and really needs one of those conical spangenhelm everyone and their dog used those days to top his mail coif.
Huscarles would've fought with the usual mix of spears, swords, and axes. The big Danish axes were AFAIK a bit of a special-purpose weapon, the majority tending to prefer the trusty (and rather safer) spear, shield and sword and/or small axe approach.
No doubt you are right... I have no sources that say they did only use axes. And of course in such unformed formations it would be down to personal preference. But in general it was these important local elites that would have used the Daneaxe and it was the axe that got remembered becasue it was so unusual for the intended victims.
In such a context I think it is fair to give him that axe in preference to a spear, though I would say it would be a brave, and cool, choice to make some elite units carry spears.
Yes your right, your average spear should be between about 6 - 9 feet, and later on went upto around 12 feet in length. Then of course came the pike.
Thanks DW. Yeah, that's kind of what I thought, but I just wasn't sure. It seems like far too many of the weapons we've seen so far (either in the 3D unit feature or the screenshots) are smaller than their real-life historical counterparts. I've seen some that look more or less like they're the correct size (knight's lances and some of the broadswords, for instance), but a number of others simply look too short.
Perhaps that Huscarl is disguised as a resource gatherer. :laugh4:
Special ability: Hides well in forests, disguised as lumberjacks.
LOL!! Humor is a dangerous weapon when you wield it, my friend. :laugh4:
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.