The Segesta Experiment

[GeneralHankerchief]

A couple of things were said on the "A Chance for Power" board about Segesta being a city able to trigger Marius but the fact that it will never happen. With my current Britannia campaign winding down I have decided that once I finish it up I will try to trigger Marius with Segesta.

I'm putting a couple of "restrictions" on to make my life easier (so I don't have Gauls breathing down my backs every turn):

Version 1.0
Easy/Easy difficulty
Long Campaign (Julii)

I will not be using the "Add_population" cheat but will be debating on the "Add_money" cheat because I won't be doing much conquering. Perhaps if I got some feedback from the forum?

I will posting updates of my progress at various intervals. Let me know if you're interested. This is done strictly to see if Segesta can ever become the first huge Roman city, not for any other purpose.

Thanks for your interest.

[Severous]

I am interested.

So you will try to grow this town as quickly as you can ?

What unit scale do you play on ?

Enjoy your experiment.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Yes... I haven't figured my entire strategy out yet, but I'm thinking of making Segesta the only settlement with a governor, and go on a ridiculous enslavement campaign. That way it's sure to get a bunch of people.

I'll probably stick with Large (Peasants = 120) size.

[Neco]

You may also want to train tons of peasant units in your other cities, move them to Segesta, and disband them. That should speed things up and keep the populations in your other cities down.

[ArnoldLol]

i dont think this is smart...it will drain cities the cities you train peasants in and Segesta wil get a very negative growing rate which will require an unstoppable resource of peasants and since you wont do much conquering...this wont work

[Garvanko]

Yes... I haven't figured my entire strategy out yet, but I'm thinking of making Segesta the only settlement with a governor, and go on a ridiculous enslavement campaign. That way it's sure to get a bunch of people.
I had thought of that too. Is it working?

[x-dANGEr]

i dont think this is smart...it will drain cities the cities you train peasants in and Segesta wil get a very negative growing rate which will require an unstoppable resource of peasants and since you wont do much conquering...this wont work
It's an experiment on Easy/Easy. With a fair garrison a 12k population would easily be managed/supressed.

[GeneralHankerchief]

i dont think this is smart...it will drain cities the cities you train peasants in and Segesta wil get a very negative growing rate which will require an unstoppable resource of peasants and since you wont do much conquering...this wont work

I will probably use my generals as garrison since I'll only be needing Flavius to conquer and Lucius to manage Segesta. (EDIT: Waitaminute, I can't do that, otherwise all the slaves won't go to Segesta then... oh well. Guess it won't be getting peasants every turn.) The rest of the units will just be peasant exchange most likely.

I have a couple of other strategies up my sleeve which will be revealed in due time. Now that my Briton campaign is (finally) over...

Let the experiment begin!

[InsaneApache]

You could always take your general out of the town just before you take a city and then put him back afterwards.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Segesta. This Ligurian village northwest of Arretium is really not much more than a hill. There are a couple of huts. Trees. And the local villagers are gathered in the town square to protect what is theirs.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta01.JPG

These pitiful villagers will be killed by the mighty Roman army led by Flavius Julius. Little do the remaining locals know that their little hill will soon turn into the biggest city in the world (or at least, Italy- I mean those cities on the Nile grow ridiculously fast, and if Carthage isn't taken over it expands pretty quickly too...).

Anyway, the point is bigger things are destined for this small Ligurian village. This is evident when, six months after the takeover, Flavius announces it is the new capital of the House of Julii, and departs with his army. The villagers are too stunned to rebel, and soon Lucius Julius, the new governor, arrives.

And the mass immigration begins. Segesta's population nearly doubles from the influx of peasants coming from Arretium and Arminium. Upon arrival, they look pretty glum. But when Lucius informs them that they are NOT here for garrison duty and that they now live here, the peasants couldn't be happier.

After building a land clearance which would increase the population growth, I (General Hankerchief Julius, the secret overlord of the Julii) ordered Flavius to capture and enslave Patavium. Since no other settlement had a governor, most of the slaves went to Segesta (25% of course going to Rome itself) and it was time to build a Villa for Lucius.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta02.JPG

Things started to really grow quickly after that. Segesta soon had peasants coming in from Patavium, and not too long after, Mediolanium. Not to mention the fact that it now had communial farming and low taxes, both which served as population boosters. With the enslavement of Patavium and Mediolanium, and the populations of Arretium and Arminium holding steady, Segesta was the largest town belonging to the Julii.

The economy was growing well too. With most of the cities under heavy taxation to surpress population boost, and my diplomatic staff securing trade rights/map information for a price with Germania, Britannia, Carthage, Numidia, and Dacia (God bless 1.0 diplomacy, you gotta love it :2thumbsup:), my coffers were over 25,000 strong.

A couple of things happened in the summer of 263 BC. First of all, not wanting to totally alienate the Senate at this early stage of the game (I failed to take Narbo Maritus), I sent one of my diplomats to Caralis and successfully bribed it, thus completing a mission. Whether I hold it or not, we will see.

Second of all, Flavius took Massilia. The slaves from it meant that Segesta's population was now over 6,000 and it was ready to become a city.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta03.JPG

This is where I leave off. In my next update I will address the problems of juggling peasant relocation with maintaining an active garrison with my ever-growing towns. Also, I will deal with "The Other 25% of Slaves," i.e. Rome and its population, which will be my biggest challenge in this experiment.

Stay tuned!

[Severous]

Interesting.

Couple of tips to consider:

- Disbanding peasants in Segesta doesnt have to be in the town. Anywhere in that region will do

- Hire all available mercenaries. Send those to Segesta area and disband them.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Hmm- very interesting tips Severous. I didn't think about the mercs and wasn't even aware of the fact that you could disband in a region and have the population go towards the actual city.

Thanks for the input, new update coming soon.

[Garvanko]

Doesn't disbanding mercs contribute to the spawning of Rebels within the province?

[Severous]

I have not noticed any link between disbanding mercenaries and spawning rebels.

I suspect that disbanding mercenaries spawns more mercenaries. I strongly suspect that loosing mercenariy units in battle spawns more mercenary units.

If you see rebels...bribe them ? More soldiers to disband in the Segesta ?

[player1]

Why not use Patvium instead?
It has high growth rate, you can add temples of Ceres...

[ArnoldLol]

because i thought the idea behind this was to see if a slow growing city can be first to reach the last level...i quess the answer is YES

[Garvanko]

Idea was specifically targeted at Segesta - IMO, one of the slowest growing settlements on the campaign map. What is important, however, is that it is also based in Italy, and has never, to anyone's knowledge or experience, triggered the Marius reforms.

[Napoleon Blownapart]

Wow. This will be interesting.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Well, first things first. Caralis stabilized, and I put my diplomat en route to points east. The economy situation is going quite well.

Flavius contiuned his Southern Gaul campaign, taking Narbo Maritus. I ignored the Senate's mission to blockade Sparta, thus only having to make war on one front. This was definitely a plus, as I could concentrate on peasant relocation in Italy instead of having to raise another army.

Segesta was a city at this point, but I still had to catch up to Rome. Seeing as how it was a city at the game's start, and how it picks up 25% of my slaves every time Flavius conquers a settlement, it was still ahead of me in population. I had to do something to ensure that Rome would not expand. This is where Evil Genius mode turns on. I dispatched Decius Curtus, spy extraordinaire, to the Balkan Peninsula, more specifically the Macedonian capital Thessalonica. After he was safely plunked in, all he has to do is wait until 256 BC, where a nice little plague awaits... :evil: After that a fleet is waiting for him to take him back to Italy where he can distribute that plague to the good citizens of Rome.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta04.JPG

It was about this time where the rebels really started to pop up around Italy. This would rid me of my garrison troubles- a quick bribing session and soon they were heading to Segesta, new defenders of the Julii capital.

Meanwhile, Flavius decided it was time to get rid of the Gauls once and for all. He tracked down a fairly large army led by their king, Brennus. They did battle in the woods of the Loire Valley. Brennus sent most of his forces on Flavius's left flank. But the Roman general would not be denied. He sent his cavalry on a countercharge, and ordered his right flank to collapse on the Gauls. Brennus found himself in trouble along both flanks. Here was a shot of the action on the left.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta05.JPG

Pretty soon, it was all over. Brennus was dead (with a nearby soldier apparently spearing an invisible, flying Gaul) and his army destroyed.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta06.JPG

Flavius the Mighty took his victorious army on the path to Alesia.

So. Here's the situation in the summer of 258 BC: Decius Curtis is still lounging around in Thessalonica waiting to get sick. My marine diplomat will land in Alexandria soon. I have to make a decision about whether to incur the wrath of the Senate or get into a war with Carthage. Flavius is constructing engines (ok, Rams) to attack Alesia. And Segesta's population has just cracked over 10,000.

Stay tuned!

[Napoleon Blownapart]

If all goes according to plan, you look to be in a good position.

[x-dANGEr]

Save your images in .jpg format PLEASE!

[Garvanko]

Could you use imageshack as well, General? Sounds like the campaign is going well, though!

[Viking]

Save your images in .jpg format PLEASE!

Haha. I didn`t notice that his images was 1 MB in size each. :dizzy2:

(probably because of my uber, super, extreme, fantastic broadband connection)

[GeneralHankerchief]

(probably because of my uber, super, extreme, fantastic broadband connection)

Heh, I have one too. Sometimes we forget that there are slower connections. Comcast (my current image hosting service) is really convenient for me, so I'll probably stick with it... sorry. ~:(

However, I'll see what I can do as far as making the pictures .jpg goes.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Pictures are now jpg as per request.

And update coming tomorrow, probably.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Flavius took Alesia without a problem. The Gauls were now pinned with their backs to the Atlantic, with their capital in Iberia. As the effort to make Alesia Roman commenced, Decius Curtius finally got hit with the plague. He proceeded to make his way to the awaiting boats, ready to transport him back to Rome.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta07.JPG

At this point we reached a quiet period for a few years, with the only events of note being that Segesta was now a Large City. However, there were still a lot of people to be relocated. I had burned out the population of Mediolanium and Patavium was going down below 1,000 fast as well, so I would have to manage my peasanting better. The Senate finally gave me a mission I could do, which was obtain trade rights from Spain. My diplomat was only too happy to oblige.

In 253 BC, a couple of things happened. Flavius was still out for Gallic settlements. Decius Curtius had reached Rome and the effects were immediate. :evil: However, Segesta's population, now over 14k, was so big that the effects of squalor hit and the population growth was at zero.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta08.JPG

I would have to keep up the peasanting and rely on my one field army to keep bringing new bodies into Segesta. I then sent Flavius on a course to a more slightly-populated area... Spain. He would hit the Numantia, the Gallic capital, soon enough.

Meanwhile, back in Segesta population-growth/squalor-reducing buildings were in. I had to build a market in order to access the Sewer line of buildings, which kill squalor and add a bit to population growth. Here we see Lucius ordering his lackeys to build a series of Public Baths. However, the more serious problem lies in the fact of... Negative Population Growth!

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta09.JPG

It appears at the end of my third update they we are settled in for the long haul. I might just have to build an army and send it to a more populated area, such as Hellena or the Nile River in order to get the population needed, which I really don't want to do. I am planning to let the city of Corduba grow a little bit before I take it. I might even let it rebel, so I can take it again and re-enslave. Any other suggestions? They are all appreciated.

Stay tuned!

[Severous]

Hi

A couple of suggestions:

- Check the temple types available to Julii. I know some religious buildings offer population growth

- Build your farm upgrades. That definatey increase population growth.

- Check your govenor. Ones that have built many buildings often develop poor farmer (or worse) anti farming traits. These reduce population growth. You can reduce this by having the govenor build a farm and in the turn it completes ensure your governor stays still. I read somewhtere this farm build can cancell out negative farming traits.

- Check govenor retinues. Ensure they are optimum for growth by swapping them around

- Change you govenor if his growth traits are negative.

Good luck. Keep on growing.

[Garvanko]

Why haven't you upgraded the temple? Temple of Ceres gives you massive population growth.

[vonsch]

I know you're already decades into this, but at the start enslaving Segesta gets you a decade or so of increased growth also (weird, I know, but it does). Since the initial population is so low, you don't lose much. A peasant unit or two and you're recovered, but with a higher initial growth rate.

And there's the small additional perq of boosted trade for that same period among the cities trading the slaves too.

Yeah, Ceres line of temple should be early and often on the build list. You could aim to capture a pagan farming temple somewhere and try for some of the farmer traits on an alternate governor, and there may be a useful ancilliary from that too. That's a random thing, but might pay off, especially an ancilliary which you can transfer.

With a second governor you could maximize the farming line too. Have him build the farms line in the two starting cities (and some local captured ones) to aim for the farmer trait, then swap him into Segesta.

Similarly, get the academy line going in Segesta and farm for the high influence type traits (swap the less useful ones off to the alternate govs) for the pop control you will need as you grow.

Fun experiment.

[x-dANGEr]

How do you get your general so much Influence and Management 0-o

[Avicenna]

Even the most incapable buffoon of a governor can be transformed by living in a settlement with an academy for a while. Also, Lucius Julius has quite high influence and management to begin with, and now has probably become faction leader as well to boost the influence.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Hmm, I will take your advice and work on doing the temple line. The reason it hasn't been completely upgraded is because I've been mostly working on governor's buildings, farms, and then the money-boosting things such as a port and market.

x-danger: Senate Offices, my boy. Lucius climbed up the ladder and is currently Pontifex Maximus. Once you leave a position, you still get a moderate amount of influence/management because you held the office at one time. And although Flavius is still faction leader, he is circling the drain so Lucius should be getting those faction leader bonuses pretty soon.

[Garvanko]

Temple of Juno must be the best temple in the game for training your Generals - as Tiberius said, best used with an Academy.

If you have one at your capital and in key cities, you can train excellent Generals and Governors within three or four turns of their coming of age or adoption!

[GeneralHankerchief]

At this point everything is moot. I just had a long RTW session and Segesta is now at 22,000 something. I should get Marius in another turn or two, so my next update will be the last.

Thank you to everyone who showed interest/gave advice. It was much appreciated and soon I can go back to doing what I do best- ruling on multiple fronts. :charge:

[Garvanko]

Well done, General!

[GeneralHankerchief]

When last we left off, I was having some problems with squalor, and Segesta's population wouldn't grow. I decided to do two things to remedy this: start working on the Ceres line of temples (thank you, everyone) and enlist the faithful Brutii to help my cause.

For years now, the Brutii have been using Northern Italy as a way to move their troops around, which was kind of dumb when they could just do amphibious landings. It was also extremely annoying when their guys were dumped right on the Po River bridge so my Patavium peasants would have to take the long way to Segesta. So I sent my diplomats on a new assignment: get the Brutii to wear red. It was extremely successful, and the high point was when I landed a family member, Oppius Brutus. I started to give him a small army, and placed him under the command of Manius Julius. I proceeded to send that army to take the rebel towns north of Italy, in order to get a double helping of slaves.

Around that time, Flavius's army conquered Numantia. The Gauls were down to one settlement in Normandy. They weren't going anywhere. Victorious, Flavius finally entered the void.
http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta10.JPG

Reign passed to Lucius. He gained even more management and influence as a result of being faction leader.

Time passed. Flavius's old army, now commanded by faction heir Amilius Julius, looked for a new target to attack. I decided on Osca but was told that Spain was off-limits by the Senate. It's times like those where I really wished it was the Civil War so I could obliterate those old women. About a year wasted, I was off to Cathaginian Corduba.

Back in Segesta, those Temples of Ceres were really starting to take effect. While there was little to no growth, it was better than negative growth. Plus, the peasants and Brutii just kept coming in. It was estimated that an Imperial Palace would be needed right about the time when the Awesome Temple would be finished.

I was correct in my assumption. The slaves from Corduba and Lugdunum pushed Segesta over 24,000. I began building an Imperial Palace. 3 years later... success.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta11.JPG

Some final stats for the campaign:

Game ended at Winter 242 BC
Caralis and Narbo Maritus only other settlements to upgrade
Lucius Julius faction leader at 59
Amilius Julius faction heir at 41
Ended game with 218,627 denarii
Trade rights with every faction except the ones I'm at war with
War with: Gaul, Germania, Carthage
2 large field armies total (one E of Alesia, one in Corduba)
Took 11 regions plus my starter two
Est. 1,500 Brutii bribed including Oppius Brutus
Senate standing: 6 (Brutii 5 Scipii 6)
People standing: 5 (Brutii 3 Scipii 4)

I leave you now with a screenshot of Segesta. Go back to page one first and find the little village on the hill with three or four huts. And then feast your eyes on the same village 28 years later.

http://home.comcast.net/~general_hankerchief/onlinestorage/segesta12.JPG

However, Segesta is still a very underdeveloped city. The only buildings of note were the Awesome Temple of Ceres and the Palace, both included in the shot. But I really don't care about that, because it triggered Marius, which was what I was going for.

Again, thank you very much to those who showed interest, and especially to those who pointed out the Ceres thing. I couldn't have done it without that.

~General Hankerchief

[vonsch]

Cool experiment and good job. Congrats!

I'm POed at the stupid diplomatic AI at the moment.

[Severous]

Interesting experiment.

When playing a Roman campaign does anyone try to grow one of their Roman towns fast to achieve the reforms ? I ask as I dont..and finish my campaigns pre Marius.

[Avicenna]

Congrats!

Marius is always nice, but if you're not bad it gets boring always steamrolling over the AI with these crazy-good units.

[Garvanko]

Do a slower campaign, and then you'll face armies late on that are as good as yours.

[Ludens]

~:thumb:

[GeneralHankerchief]

I was actually just going to drop this campaign and play as Carthage in an attempt to leave Rome alone for 50 years, but you guys are making me think.

I may have the Marian units, but since all my towns (including Segesta) are ridiculously underdeveloped and I can't build anything more than Auxilia. It would be interesting to see how I crazily build military buildings all of a sudden in an effort to compete with the other Romans (last few Brutii armies I bribed had Principes in them so I'm definitely behind).

This is worth another look.

[Viking]

Do a slower campaign, and then you'll face armies late on that are as good as yours.

That happened in my Numidian campaign. I`m practically screwed...I`ve expanded with only two cities and the Marius Reforms happened long ago.

[Garvanko]

Maybe not that slow, Viking. :)

[Viking]

Maybe not that slow, Viking. :)

Nah, I think that`s required with such a dumb AI. ~:smoking: