American BATFE Enforces Federal Face Covering Guidelines

[Crazed Rabbit]

The fearless JBTs of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms have scored another great victory in the fight against suspicious behavior when they detained, forced to the ground, and put a knee on the neck of a college kid on the U of Georgia campus dressed as a ninja.

http://www.randb.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/04/12/443c71ed40b94


“Seeing someone with something across the face, from a federal standpoint — that’s not right,” McLemore said, explaining why agents believed something to be amiss.
You tell those miscreant people who defy the federal dress code! Keep up the good fight against those who do not comply!

Comrade Crazed Rabbit

[Don Corleone]

Lighten up, CR. I'm no fan of Janet Reno's favorite assasins either, but this case was clearly a matter of honest bad-timing.

If I were a law enforcement official, and I saw someone sprinting across the campus with every inch of their body robed in black & with a bananda across their face (and mind you, it's 6 months until Halloween), I'd detain them too.

By the guy's own admission:

1) He was dressed in a way that masked his identity as well as any weaponry he might be carrying

2) he was running

3) he didn't respond to the officers original command to 'freeze'.

4) was released without charge or harm once the officers figured out what they were up to.

We gotta give the 'jack-booted thugs' (a reference to G. Gordon Liddy's radio program) a pass on this one, I'm afraid.

[Xiahou]

The headline is hilarious "ATF rids Univ. of ninja threat" :laugh4:

This was a pretty good line too:
“Seeing someone with something across the face, from a federal standpoint — that’s not right,” McLemore said, explaining why agents believed something to be amiss.Something across the face isnt right from a federal standpoint. Let's hope they dont have any traditional female muslims on campus :yes:

Good call about the dresscode too.

[drone]

Those agents must be very well trained and disciplined, to capture a ninja like that. The student must not have had access to a frisbee....

[Don Corleone]

And what if it turned out that he was in fact a Hizbollah operative, making their first move on American soil. Would you be equally understanding if the ATF just let the guy go, then he went and blew up a dining hall?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yes, he probably did look out of the ordinary, but the BATFE is supposed to deal with alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, not oddly dressed people. They are tax agents, they shouldn't be walking around arresting people for what they view as 'not right' clothing (much less killing people on raids, but that's another story).


1) He was dressed in a way that masked his identity as well as any weaponry he might be carrying
Anybody in a hat and sunglasses is hard to identify. And a gun can be concealed under pretty much anything.


2) he was running
Jogging.


3) he didn't respond to the officers original command to 'freeze'.
He didn't see the officers at first.


4) was released without charge or harm once the officers figured out what they were up to.

And they had to get him on the ground and kneel on his neck to ascertain that he wasn't a threat.

They could have found out that he was harmless much, much more easily.

Crazed Rabbit

[BigTex]

Yes, he probably did look out of the ordinary, but the BATFE is supposed to deal with alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, not oddly dressed people. They are tax agents, they shouldn't be walking around arresting people for what they view as 'not right' clothing (much less killing people on raids, but that's another story).


Anybody in a hat and sunglasses is hard to identify. And a gun can be concealed under pretty much anything.


Jogging.


He didn't see the officers at first.


And they had to get him on the ground and kneel on his neck to ascertain that he wasn't a threat.

They could have found out that he was harmless much, much more easily.

Crazed Rabbit

I'd really hate to point this out to you CR but generally those with alochol and firearms are oddly dressed and acting odd. A masked man sprinting across the campus somehow doesnt seem like they could be a burgler or something else worse, come on. Puting a knee to below the neck is a simple submissive possition that alows the officers to asertain whether or not he has something on him without puting him at risk. I guess criminals never dress in dark clothing that masks their identity in Canada, eh?


Originally posted by Crazed Rabbit
You tell those miscreant people who defy the federal dress code! Keep up the good fight against those who do not comply!

You do know why that law was written? The laws that forbid masks from covering the face was a very clever way to attempt to get rid of the KKK. Which worked quite well IMO, and completely got rid of their way to hide who they were.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I'd really hate to point this out to you CR but generally those with alochol and firearms are oddly dressed and acting odd. A masked man sprinting across the campus somehow doesnt seem like they could be a burgler or something else worse, come on.

The BATFE is a tax organization, for enforcing taxes and regulations on the selling of firearms (and alcohol and tobacco), not a police organization that enforces real laws. Note the the campus police chief said he would file a complaint with the ATF. These agents saw a oddly dressed person on a college campus. So they drew their guns in a public place, forced the kid to ground at gunpoint, placed a knee on the neck of a compliant subject who was harmless, and kept it there. Why couldn't they just have asked the kid 'Why are you wearing the mask?' instead?


I guess criminals never dress in dark clothing that masks their identity in Canada, eh?

I wouldn't know.


You do know why that law was written? The laws that forbid masks from covering the face was a very clever way to attempt to get rid of the KKK. Which worked quite well IMO, and completely got rid of their way to hide who they were.

Yes, but most such laws have exceptions (Virginia has an exceptions for Halloween and other holiday costumes, protective masks and "modified theatrical productions.) Even then, it is not the purpose of the BATFE to enforce such laws.

Crazed Rabbit

[Vladimir]

This conservative declines to comment.






(+1)

[BigTex]

Originally posted by Crazed Rabbit
The BATFE is a tax organization, for enforcing taxes and regulations on the selling of firearms (and alcohol and tobacco), not a police organization that enforces real laws. Note the the campus police chief said he would file a complaint with the ATF. These agents saw a oddly dressed person on a college campus. So they drew their guns in a public place, forced the kid to ground at gunpoint, placed a knee on the neck of a compliant subject who was harmless, and kept it there. Why couldn't they just have asked the kid 'Why are you wearing the mask?' instead?

Your complaining that because someone stoped a possible burgler or rapist that they should be reprimanded? A masked man sprinting across the campus with more then likely a sword at night should raise red flags for anyone who see's them. IMO it is everyones personal responsibility to help prevent crime, and from this it appears they attempted just that. They guy wasnt hurt, wasnt detained if i remember correctly, and leaned a very valuable lesson. Stop when the police ask you to stop.

[drone]

Your complaining that because someone stoped a possible burgler or rapist that they should be reprimanded? A masked man sprinting across the campus with more then likely a sword at night should raise red flags for anyone who see's them. IMO it is everyones personal responsibility to help prevent crime, and from this it appears they attempted just that. They guy wasnt hurt, wasnt detained if i remember correctly, and leaned a very valuable lesson. Stop when the police ask you to stop.
Maybe I missed it, but where in the article does it say this happened at night, or that he had anything that looked like a weapon? That picture looks like daytime to me. Stuff like this makes me believe the good doctor Thompson wasn't just spouting BS. Fear with a capital F runs this country.

I can only imagine what the ATF would have done to one of the pirates if they had seen one. Yaaaaarrrrrrr!!!!! Avast, now I must give up me grog source! Arrrrrr!!!

And as a Georgia Tech grad, I can honestly say that if the terrorists think blowing up UGA will set this country back, we have already won. ~D

[Don Corleone]

Point of fact, Drone. I was not introducing this theory as one I subscribe to. I was trying to offer into evidence motives other then the pre-supposed "JBT just want to crack skulls" theory already advanced.

Personally, I DON'T believe Hizbollah has entertained any notions of homicide bombing in this country, because with our border security as it is, they WOULD HAVE years ago. I'm merely trying to offer a possible mindset for the officer, who is sworn to uphold the laws of the land, may have been in.

[drone]

Point of fact, Drone. I was not introducing this theory as one I subscribe to. I was trying to offer into evidence motives other then the pre-supposed "JBT just want to crack skulls" theory already advanced.

Personally, I DON'T believe Hizbollah has entertained any notions of homicide bombing in this country, because with our border security as it is, they WOULD HAVE years ago. I'm merely trying to offer a possible mindset for the officer, who is sworn to uphold the laws of the land, may have been in.
Understood, just couldn't help taking a dig at the University [sic] of Georgia. ~;)

Actions like this do little to help the ATF distance itself from the "JBT" image though. Of course, officers of other Fed agencies may be over-reacting to similiar situations as well, but the ATF will get jumped on because of it's recent history.

[Ironside]

Let me put this straight.

Assuming the police is correct the man was masked with a red bandanna (thus blowing his ninja style quite badly), peaked around a corner and started to move away quickly in another direction about the same time police sirens was heard.
They might have overreacted (sounds like it), but the things above is certainly enough for a reaction.

As for ATF being involved. It's quite normal IMO that any police reacts on a crime or possible crime if they're close by if it's sencible to get involved. I mean it can be quite absurd otherwise, I mean is traffic cops supposed to be handeling murders? No. Does that mena that they shouldn't be involved if they see something that indicates murder?

[Crazed Rabbit]

An update from the university paper's website:
http://www.redandblack.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/04/13/443dd07e60128

Apparently, the ATF members thought he had a gun, and refused to believe that he did not:

One of the guys yelled I had a gun, tackled me and asked where my gun was,” Ransom said.

After telling agents he only had his keys, wallet and cell phone on him, Ransom said the agent pinning him to the ground responded that, being trained officers, they would not mistake any of those items for a gun.

The dialogue between Ransom and the agent went back and forth, with the agent insisting Ransom had a gun, and Ransom insisting he was unarmed.

Apparently they are not that trained.

Crazed Rabbit

[Don Corleone]

Damn those ATF agents for not having a priori knowledge who is armed and who is not!!!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Oh, come on Don. I'm not knocking them so much for questioning suspicious people, but the manner in which they did it. And in this case, the fact that they had the suspect handcuffed under their control, and kept insisting he had a handgun, when he in fact did not.

Crazed Rabbit

[Don Corleone]

Did they get a little carried away? Maybe. But I really think if it was the University police department themselves, you wouldn't have problems with their tactics. You do raise a valid point on jursidiction, but I thought that as federal officers, they have jurisdiction, and are charged with responsibility wherever they view a crime taking place. Jurisdiction more refers to the ATF not patrolling universities looking for crimes. In this case, they just happened to be there for a legitimate reason and witnessed what they thought was a crime.

[Don Corleone]

Look, I didn't use the term Janet Reno's favorite assasins by mistake. I'm well aware of the culture of imperial authority that pervades the ATF and other federal agencies. Frankly, I am shocked to find myself defending them. But let's be fair here... this isn't Waco or Ruby Ridge. What if the opposite was true? What if there was a story along the lines of the following:

Fat pompous beauracrats sit back while serial killer flees scene of crime:

Dateline, Athens GA.... Even though they were armed and quite capable of detaining the suspect, 4 ATF agents allowed a serial rapist/murder to flee the scene of a crime while still in disguise and wearing a mask. Said the victim's father "If they can't catch a rapist running by them wearing a mask, when they outnumber him 4 to 1, who can they catch?" The suspect went on to commit 3 more rapes that afternoon before he was finally apprehended by some policemen that were actually interested in earning their paychecks....

I mean, we can't have it both ways. They're not mindreaders...

[Major Robert Dump]

hahah stupid cops. he's lucky they didn't shoot him 437 times in fear he may have one of those covert "wallet guns" or "keychain bombs"

I love cops, I hate cops. I have no opinion on the matter, except that after they let me go I'd find out where the guy whose knee was on my neck lives, and I'd kill his dog.

BTW, this reeks of the Air Marshall who shot the "terrorist" because he thought he heard him say "bomb."