Rascism on the rise in UK?

[Radier]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4913164.stm

... Mrs Hodge told the paper she has been out campaigning two days a week
in an attempt to counter the BNP efforts.

She has found that as many as eight out of 10 white families admit they are
tempted to vote BNP.

"That's something we have never seen before, in all my years. Even when people
voted BNP they used to be ashamed to vote BNP," she said. ...

Is it just me or is something wrong when 80% are thinking of voting for BNP?
:help:

[Craterus]

Is it just me or is something wrong when 80% are thinking of voting for BNP?

That's only in a certain area though, isn't it?

I think racism may be on the rise though. The real problem we have in this country is our new age Untermenschen (chavs, as they are known). I think that needs to be dealt with - one way or another - way before immigration and issues related to it.

[Marcellus]

I think the real problem there is that people aren't recognising the BNP as the bunch of racists they really are, and so thinking that they are a good party to give a protest vote to, more than a rise in racism in that area.

[Craterus]

I don't see how they haven't been warned or anything. Some of the stuff they do is so blatantly racist.

I think they should be banned too, but that's hardly democratic now, is it?

[Marcellus]

They tend to prey on voters' fears over immigration, making it seem like their policies are not racist but simply the solution to the perceived problem. I don't think enough people in certain areas recognise what the BNP is doing in this regard.

[lancelot]

I dont see why there is an automatic connection between people who may consider voting BNP and the race issue...does voting BNP make you a racist becuase other BNP members possibly are?

In fact I consider the word 'racist' ascribed to a lot more things than it should be....

I believe if person A considers themselves genetically or intrinsically superior or irrationally hate person B becuase they are of a certain race then that is racism.

If person A believes their culture/way of life or considers they should get preferential treatment as a national/resident of a nation/area/whatever this is no way qualifies them as a racist...even if they feel person B should be removed becuse of their lack of aforementioned criteria.

Personally, would I lose any sleep if all non-nationals/immigrants had to leave the UK tomorrow....Id have to say probably not....does this mean I hate these people or think Im somehow better than them? No, not at all...

[Fragony]

If normal parties had any guts/use people wouldn't be tempted to vote for the BNP. Their loss, I expect that the majority of those BNP voters feel like they just don't have an alternative.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Remember racism applies to all races, in my city the blacks and asians communities are as racist as any white community. Ask any white lad who has ever entered Alum Rock or Handsworth Wood of an evening, the chances are they have subjected to abuse, most likely battered and relieved of any cash just because of their colour

[Duke of Gloucester]

They tend to prey on voters' fears over immigration, making it seem like their policies are not racist but simply the solution to the perceived problem. I don't think enough people in certain areas recognise what the BNP is doing in this regard.

It is worse than this. They promote the idea that problems are caused by "foreigners", either imigrants and asylum seekers or the EU or third world countries. This is classic far right propanda. Our problems are not our fault. They are caused by (insert marginalised, easily idnetified group) and all we have to do is (insert unfair, punitive measure). The modern version would have "but we are not racist" at the end.


I dont see why there is an automatic connection between people who may consider voting BNP and the race issue...does voting BNP make you a racist becuase other BNP members possibly are?

The race issue arises because BNP policies confirm to the template described above. Ergo they are racist.


If person A believes their culture/way of life or considers they should get preferential treatment as a national/resident of a nation/area/whatever this is no way qualifies them as a racist...even if they feel person B should be removed becuse of their lack of aforementioned criteria.

You may be arguing that we need a different word for this behaviour becuase it is based on place of birth instead of strictly on race, and you are not trying to justify it. However I suspect that you are saying that such behavour is ok. I disagree. Let me use myself as an example to point out the flaws in your postion. My father is English and I count myself as English too, but my mother is not English. Do I deserve this preferential treatment of which you speak? I have moved to a new area to further my career and in so doing, presumably took a job that could have been done by a "local". Should I be repatriated to the county of my birth?



Personally, would I lose any sleep if all non-nationals/immigrants had to leave the UK tomorrow....Id have to say probably not....does this mean I hate these people or think Im somehow better than them? No, not at all...

I think with a little imagination we might all see this as something we should lose sleep over. You are forced to leave your job, sell your home and pack up your belongings and go to a place you haven't been for ages, where there may not be work for you to do or even somewhere for you to live. Your children have to move away from their school and friends a settle somewhere that will be totally alien to you. You have worked hard, paid taxes, kept the laws of the land and made a positive contribution to your community, but you still have to go and the only reason you have to go is because you were born in the wrong place or someone has decided you are not a "resisdent" or "national".

Who would sleep well if this was happening in their neighbourhood?


If normal parties had any guts/use people wouldn't be tempted to vote for the BNP. Their loss, I expect that the majority of those BNP voters feel like they just don't have an alternative.

What is meant by "guts". If it means guts to tackle the problems that the BNP are exploiting, then I agree, but I suspect this means that the mainstream parties should be more racist themselves. I pray we are preserved from such things.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Remember racism applies to all races, in my city the blacks and asians communities are as racist as any white community. Ask any white lad who has ever entered Alum Rock or Handsworth Wood of an evening, the chances are they have subjected to abuse, most likely battered and relieved of any cash just because of their colour

True, but this does not make it ok.

[Justiciar]

I think "guts" could be taken as a stab against the Conservatives.. they've gone all middle-way. Infact all three of the major parties are pretty much the same.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

True, but this does not make it ok.


Im not saying that. Its just when people constanly say "Racism is on the rise", people automatically say "Oh the BNP are to blame" and it grates me due to the fact that racism occurs between all colours.

For example the black and Asian communites in Birmingham hate each other and i do mean pure hatred. The riot in Lozells recently was just an excuse to plunder each other's neighbour hoods and the hatred came to the boil after an apparent rape of a black girl by Asian youths but it was only after the event that the truth came out that it was a pirate radio station ran by black youths who basically made the whole thing up to which brought the powder keg to an explosion whcih left two dead and scores of business robbed and burnt out

[Banquo's Ghost]

If normal parties had any guts/use people wouldn't be tempted to vote for the BNP. Their loss, I expect that the majority of those BNP voters feel like they just don't have an alternative.


It's rare I find myself in agreement with you Fragony, but you're spot on. The BNP is a party of the disenfranchised and inarticulate, and as with all these parties, their 'solutions' demonise those who are 'other'. And it's not just in the UK but throughout Europe.

Because the mainstream parties are so spineless in dealing with the complexity of modern globalised societies, particularly in relation to immigration policy, more and more people are tempted to buy into simplistic and ultimately dangerous demagoguery. (Though the BNP are not particularly dangerous at present as their current leadership would be hard pressed to find a brain cell to share).

The only saving grace is that it might scare some politicians into doing something. (No, I don't think so either).

[thrashaholic]

Yes, I would say 'racism' is on the rise in Britain, but not the racism that this politician is talking about, it is the endemic institutionalised racism against the white population of this country, largely caused by an 'intellectual' elite, that is on the rise.

The article itself demonstrates this, for example Margaret Hodge's language when describing the mono-ethnic white community compared to the multi-ethnic community of today: "the new, rich multi-racial society", the clear implications of this phrase are that society wasn't 'rich' (whatever the hell that monstrously subjective word means) when it was white. Also that she feels the need to educate white people as such, and that more effort should be made to do so; not only is this incredibly condescending of the working-class white community ("they're too supid to understand that being white is bad and being 'ethnic' is good, so we'll have to tell them repeatedly"), it reeks of filthy social engineering.

At every turn white people are being forced and 'educated' to be guilty about being white. In history we are endlessly taught about the slave trade, but not how whites ended it and enforced the ban, civil rights, but not how whites campaigned for them too, and the evils of imperial Europe, but never the good, in English we are taught 'multi-cultural' poetry which once again deals with precisely the same topics, in geography we are taught how naughty horrible westerners make people with brown skin poor. One of the modules in my economics A-level involves racial discrimination in the workplace and talks about how white employers don't pay immigrants groups fair wages and why this is bad, pretty much the only evidence given to support this is a very simplistic table of average wage to race, and amusingly two of the racial groups whites supposedly discriminate against (Indians and Chinese) had HIGHER average wages than white people. Not only is this 'education' incredibly one-sided and anti-white, the information it propagates is unfounded.

A lot of the problem doesn't stem from whites being inherrently racists as Margaret Hodge would have us believe, but rather from white people being marginalised in their own communities and their own country. Their wishes are being ignored by mainstream political organisations for fear of being branded racist and getting the sort of treatment that comes with it. We are constantly being told how fantastic immigrants are, but when one actually asks why, we are told "'coz of the food......". Fantastic, exotic cuisine for the vast host of problems that stems from the inevitable lack of social cohesion that comes with large scale immigration. Working class whites never see any of these supposed benefits, all they see is unemployment, poverty and crime, and a political elite that don't ever listen to them. Allow I'm not a BNP fan myself, I can certainly understand why people are turning in that direction.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Yes, I would say 'racism' is on the rise in Britain, but not the racism that this politician is talking about, it is the endemic institutionalised racism against the white population of this country, largely caused by an 'intellectual' elite, that is on the rise.

I would be interested, as a white person, to hear examples of where "institutional" racism might affect me. I have never experienced it, whereas if I was black or Asian, I am sure I could not make a similar statement. I know there are examples of positive discrimination that disadvantage white people. These are wrong and misguided but nowhere near the scale of discrimination that ethnic minorities have to endure.


At every turn white people are being forced and 'educated' to be guilty about being white. In history we are endlessly taught about the slave trade, but not how whites ended it and enforced the ban, civil rights, but not how whites campaigned for them too, and the evils of imperial Europe, but never the good, in English we are taught 'multi-cultural' poetry which once again deals with precisely the same topics, in geography we are taught how naughty horrible westerners make people with brown skin poor. One of the modules in my economics A-level involves racial discrimination in the workplace and talks about how white employers don't pay immigrants groups fair wages and why this is bad, pretty much the only evidence given to support this is a very simplistic table of average wage to race, and amusingly two of the racial groups whites supposedly discriminate against (Indians and Chinese) had HIGHER average wages than white people. Not only is this 'education' incredibly one-sided and anti-white, the information it propagates is unfounded.

It is a pity that there is not more intellectual rigour in schools. However the simplifications you list are more an example of sloppy thinking, rather than a conspiracy to undermine whites. Remember, there is an element of truth in all of the above. The slave trade did involve exploitation (although there was plenty of "white on white" exploitation going on at the same time and it was a trade; the slave were bought not captured so not all of those who participated in it were white), civil rights did have to be fought for in the US, pay is not always fair (though to ascribe this soley or evenly mainly to racism is ridiculous) and current ecconomic structure are unfair to third world countries. I would actually advocate more influence from an "intelectual elite" who might analyse the issues raised in a fairer and more balanced way.


A lot of the problem doesn't stem from whites being inherrently racists as Margaret Hodge would have us believe, but rather from white people being marginalised in their own communities and their own country. Their wishes are being ignored by mainstream political organisations for fear of being branded racist and getting the sort of treatment that comes with it. We are constantly being told how fantastic immigrants are, but when one actually asks why, we are told "'coz of the food......". Fantastic, exotic cuisine for the vast host of problems that stems from the inevitable lack of social cohesion that comes with large scale immigration. Working class whites never see any of these supposed benefits, all they see is unemployment, poverty and crime, and a political elite that don't ever listen to them. Allow I'm not a BNP fan myself, I can certainly understand why people are turning in that direction.

Everyone is inherrently racist in a way. If you see behaviour by a particular group it is natural to typify all members of that group as behaving in the same way. Those of us who are not explicitly racist are those who realise that such judgements are unfair and challenge themselves whenever they catch themselves making snap judgements. This is why racism is so pernicous. It is too easy to blame "immigrants" for "unemployment, poverty and crime" and then the solutions seem easy too. However this is not fair; neither is it accurate.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Working class whites never see any of these supposed benefits, all they see is unemployment, poverty and crime, and a political elite that don't ever listen to them. Allow I'm not a BNP fan myself, I can certainly understand why people are turning in that direction.

Really? You appear to have read their recruiting brochures well enough.

Your entire post was filled with selective examples, mainly culled from the academic world which has a rarified view of multi-culturalism.

My UK business works with and trains many of the disenfranchised white people you speak of so freely, and less than 10% of those I speak with would share your misplaced anger. They feel cut out of the political process and care little for academics of any nature. They don't blame immigrants (in the same building we teach refugees English so they can work) and nor do they see any evidence of preferential treatment. They see that the middle classes, white, black or polka dotted are the only ones listened to, that money, education and property counts, not race.

Yes, they are angry, but not with those who are consigned to the gutter alongside them. The 'working class' is a fallacy in modern Britain. In work, most people consider themselves middle class. The underclass of the unemployed, unskilled, unmotivated is comprised of both coloured and white, and their problems are the same.

Now if you want to address the undoubted problems that unregulated and unenforced immigration policy presents (of white eastern Europeans as well as coloured ex-colonials) then that is a serious topic. But lose the false chip on your shoulder first.

[lancelot]

You may be arguing that we need a different word for this behaviour becuase it is based on place of birth instead of strictly on race, and you are not trying to justify it. However I suspect that you are saying that such behavour is ok. I disagree. Let me use myself as an example to point out the flaws in your postion. My father is English and I count myself as English too, but my mother is not English. Do I deserve this preferential treatment of which you speak? I have moved to a new area to further my career and in so doing, presumably took a job that could have been done by a "local". Should I be repatriated to the county of my birth?

To be honest I dont see how picking a purposly complex example really proves anything, Im not laying down a manifesto or anything here...I just dont think it unreasonable that the British state puts their citizens first.

Many nations, Australia springs to mind, will only allow you to migrate if you have a particular skill or can contribute to the nation...very much putting themselves first...this is nothing new or radical, yet when suggested in the UK, the 'racist' matra gets wheeled out.




I think with a little imagination we might all see this as something we should lose sleep over. You are forced to leave your job, sell your home and pack up your belongings and go to a place you haven't been for ages, where there may not be work for you to do or even somewhere for you to live. Your children have to move away from their school and friends a settle somewhere that will be totally alien to you. You have worked hard, paid taxes, kept the laws of the land and made a positive contribution to your community, but you still have to go and the only reason you have to go is because you were born in the wrong place or someone has decided you are not a "resisdent" or "national".

Who would sleep well if this was happening in their neighbourhood?

I look at the situation like this...Im very willing to accomodate the notion that people come here and do work hard and pay their taxes etc etc...however....people are not coming to the Uk because of the nice weather, they are coming for money...money which I believe should go to a national first...

I have friends who work for local councils and I hear many tales of immigrants who brings his/her family here and will purposely live in cramped conditions to save as much money to send back to their native home...I really dont see why an immigrant should have that job and that money is not being kept within the british system, keeping the economy healthy. Whatever way you want to dress it up, it is exploting the system.


Your children have to move away from their school and friends a settle somewhere that will be totally alien to you.

I notice you use this example as a reason as to why removing immigrants is wrong but you dont find it a problem that immigrants are willing to do this to come here for a job?

[thrashaholic]

I would be interested, as a white person, to hear examples of where "institutional" racism might affect me. I have never experienced it, whereas if I was black or Asian, I am sure I could not make a similar statement. I know there are examples of positive discrimination that disadvantage white people. These are wrong and misguided but nowhere near the scale of discrimination that ethnic minorities have to endure.

Probably the prime example of where the institutional racism of white Britons occurs is, as I pointed out in my original post, the education system. As I'm sure you're aware, what is taught in schools is laid out by the national curriculum, and although you dismiss it as a lack of intellectual rigour, that cannot account for the sheer volume of information that is provided to children that portrays white people in a bad way. Admittedly schools don't go out and say: "whites are evil", but I would say that this is better example of institutionalised racism for whites than the police for non-whites, which is frequently accused as such because a few individuals within it's ranks. The fact of the matter is, the information children are provided in schools cannot help but alter their perceptions, and in this case the selective information taught to children of all races will be alterring their perceptions of white people in a negative way. A white child when presented with the accounts of the slave trade that are taught might go: "I'm ashamed of myself and my race because, from this, it seems as if all white people were in on this beastly business and no-one did anything to try and stop it", whereas a black child might think: "whites enslaved and exploited my ancestors, and did nothing to stop it, they must all be like that", and as you said DoG, everyone is inherently racist, so if people are forming their opinion of other races from large quantities of officially sanctioned misinformation, that is institutional racism.

I suppose another example would be the police. Recently the police had a big crackdown on racism within its ranks, yet, from what I could gather from my following it on the news, only white officers were ever accused. Any reasonable person would conclude that each race should be afflicted by the same proportion of racists, so surely there should have been some racist non-white officers accused too. Either this didn't happen, in which case there are no racist police officers who aren't white (unlikely in my eyes), or the policeforce was racist towards its white officers; alternatively some non-white officers were accused, but their cases weren't publicised in the news, in which case the news providers were being institutionally racist.

Perhaps the most damning example of institutionalised racism against whites is the Commision for Racial Equality itself, the body meant to prevent such behaviour. Only 37% of their staff (76 of 204) are white, way beneath the proportion that makes up the British poulation as a whole. How can such a disparity between the racial makeup of this organisation and the country as a whole not lead to it, what it investigates and the conclusions it makes being wholly unrepresentative, and thus institutionally racist.

I don't doubt that minority ethnics don't have similar concerns about different institutions, but I do doubt that the way to combat these feelings is to undermine whites in the way I've described above so that everyone is discriminated the same. Surely pointing the finger targetting anti-racist measures only at the white community, as is what is happenning at present, is not only racist in itself, but only serves to reinforce and inflate racist tendencies in all racial communities, be it through backlash (as in the article), or through negative perceptions of whites.


Really? You appear to have read their recruiting brochures well enough.

Your entire post was filled with selective examples, mainly culled from the academic world which has a rarified view of multi-culturalism.

Come now, that wasn't called for. I find the BNP as horrid as the next person, but that doesn't prevent me from understanding why people would choose to support them. Nowhere in my post did I call for preferential treatment for whites, I was highlighting that often white people are ignored and put down purely because they are white. Rather than adressing their concerns, Margaret Hodge calls for 'education' in how much better a multi-cultural society is, no doubt filled with its own selective examples and a thoroughly rarified view of multi-culturalism.


My UK business works with and trains many of the disenfranchised white people you speak of so freely, and less than 10% of those I speak with would share your misplaced anger. They feel cut out of the political process and care little for academics of any nature. They don't blame immigrants (in the same building we teach refugees English so they can work) and nor do they see any evidence of preferential treatment. They see that the middle classes, white, black or polka dotted are the only ones listened to, that money, education and property counts, not race.

Perhaps, but I was responding to the article, which seemed to suggest that race was plying an increasing role. I was challenging the fact that the white communities needed 'educating' (giving examples of what education seems to entail), rather they could do with not being ingored and getting a helping hand.


Yes, they are angry, but not with those who are consigned to the gutter alongside them. The 'working class' is a fallacy in modern Britain. In work, most people consider themselves middle class. The underclass of the unemployed, unskilled, unmotivated is comprised of both coloured and white, and their problems are the same.

True, but the large scale immigration to this country we've seen, and continue to see, to this country is doing nothing to help matters. Lots of cheap imported labour drives down wages and causes unemployment by creating a two tier labour market in low paid jobs, this in turn creates a greater income and wealth disparity (a larger Gini coefficient on Britain's Lorenz curve for the economists out there), and a greater dependency on benefit payments. The rapidly increasing larger population also pushes the lower classes closer to its the subsistance level, increasing misery as the increased wealth (law of diminishing returns) is smaller than the increased population, so everyone gets a lower share. Factor in other externalities like race riots, fractured communities and the like, far from improving our economy, immigration may well have hindered it in the long run.


Now if you want to address the undoubted problems that unregulated and unenforced immigration policy presents (of white eastern Europeans as well as coloured ex-colonials) then that is a serious topic. But lose the false chip on your shoulder first.

It seems to me as if you and I may be singing from a similar hymn sheet...

[Tribesman]

I notice you use this example as a reason as to why removing immigrants is wrong but you dont find it a problem that immigrants are willing to do this to come here for a job?
I notice that you wish to compare voluntary movement with forcible expulsion , are they the same at all ?

they are coming for money...money which I believe should go to a national first...

Why ?

I really dont see why an immigrant should have that job and that money is not being kept within the british system, keeping the economy healthy. Whatever way you want to dress it up, it is exploting the system.

Yeah and every Briton must now holiday in Skegness to keep the money they earn in the British system .:dizzy2:

So Lancelot , can you tell me why I should have been kicked out of your country ?
I exploited the system , I lived in overcrowded accomodation , I sent money out of the country , I stole your jobs , Yeah , I came to make money , you make it sound like a terrible crime .
And funnily enough the BNP and NF were campaigning to get me and everyone like me thrown out of the country , because we are the source of all your problems .
I used to love attending these idiots meetings , real entertainment .:laugh4:

[Vladimir]

I found this quote interesting:


She [Mrs Hodge] said the change from a white working class community to a multi-racial community was "difficult".

So from white working class to multicultural....what? Perhaps the employment minister is a little racist herself.

[Duke of Gloucester]

To be honest I dont see how picking a purposly complex example really proves anything, Im not laying down a manifesto or anything here...I just dont think it unreasonable that the British state puts their citizens first.

Many nations, Australia springs to mind, will only allow you to migrate if you have a particular skill or can contribute to the nation...very much putting themselves first...this is nothing new or radical, yet when suggested in the UK, the 'racist' matra gets wheeled out.

Well I am not purposely complex, but if my existence undemines the argument, then it's a bonus.

You seem to think that we have no control on immigration in the UK and that we allow anyone in who wants to come. In fact, our controls are similar in effect to those in Australia, although arranged differently.


I look at the situation like this...Im very willing to accomodate the notion that people come here and do work hard and pay their taxes etc etc...however....people are not coming to the Uk because of the nice weather, they are coming for money...money which I believe should go to a national first...

The big question is: "Why they can find work?" To get a work permit they will have to show that they are not taking work from a "local". The truth is that they carry out work which either no-one here is willing to do for the pay or that no-one suitably qualified is willing to do. For example, lots of nurses in our hospitals are imigrants.

[Duke Malcolm]

Racism is on the rise because those charged with the job of dealing with it go about it the wrong way.

For instance...
Here in the Glorious People's Republic of Scotland, we have some mysterious organisation which seems to absorb swathes of money and produce very little known as the Scottish Executive.

It is charged with reducing racism. How it goes about this? By putting up billboards emblazoned with "One Scotland, Many Cultures" and similar television infomercials. This is hardly an effort to counter racism, rather to make the already anti-racists feel good about themselves that their view is right.
Furthermore, it likes to educated people of the immigrant cultures. However, it does this by giving them precendence over the traditional aspects of Scottish/British culture and explains it by saying hospitality to immigrants is a Scottish tradition.
Here in the City of Dundee, there is soon to be built an Islamic Centre with accompanying Mosque and Arabic Library funded mostly by a His Highness the Miscellaneous Sheikh of the United Arab Emirates, and also with a bit of help from the afore-mentioned Executive and Dundee City Council. This Centre is to be built in a primarily white, non-muslim area.
Also, there is a substantial Mosque newly built with public money in the city.
Children are taught about Eid and Diwali (sp) more than Easter in primary schools. More importance is put on immigrant cultures than native cultures in efforts to reduce racism...

[lancelot]

I notice that you wish to compare voluntary movement with forcible expulsion , are they the same at all ?:

No they are not the same, and you as well as I know that- but you are making this an issue when it is not what was originally being debated. The original point was- apparently displacement of families is fine when financial benefit to the immigrant in question is concerned but when reversed it is somehow not...




Yeah and every Briton must now holiday in Skegness to keep the money they earn in the British system .:dizzy2:

Again there is a world of difference between holidays and the financial earnings throughout a person's life; but you know that also...so I dont really know what your point is here.


So Lancelot , can you tell me why I should have been kicked out of your country ?
I exploited the system , I lived in overcrowded accomodation , I sent money out of the country , I stole your jobs , Yeah , I came to make money , you make it sound like a terrible crime .


So you think you have exploited our system etc etc, yet think you think that is somehow acceptable? If you believe you have done all those things, then you have answered your own question.

In fact I really dont understand some peoples ideas, I make a comment along the lines of 'I think it is a good idea that the money people earn in this country should benefit the British economic system and not be shipped overseas at the first opportunity' and people line up to criticize!?!? What on earth is wrong with that?

Perhaps an economist could enlighten me...what is the exact benefit of a person working here sending their money out of the country and not using that money in the british economy?




The truth is that they carry out work which either no-one here is willing to do for the pay or that no-one suitably qualified is willing to do. For example, lots of nurses in our hospitals are imigrants.

Well, I think we are getting into profoundly different territory there...and in a way I agree, immigrants do do a lot of the work here that no one else is willing to do... as I said that is part of a different issue- that of corporate greed and companies purposely seeking people who will work to line their own pockets, instead of paying someone a decent wage for the work...which is equally unaccpetable.

[Marcellus]

In fact I really dont understand some peoples ideas, I make a comment along the lines of 'I think it is a good idea that the money people earn in this country should benefit the British economic system and not be shipped overseas at the first opportunity' and people line up to criticize!?!? What on earth is wrong with that?

Perhaps an economist could enlighten me...what is the exact benefit of a person working here sending their money out of the country and not using that money in the british economy?

Well, I'm not an economist, but...

It's a simple matter of principle. Once someone has earnt money, as long as they pay their taxes correctly, it's more or less up to them to decide how to use it (within the limits of the law). If they want to send it to their family back in their native land, then it's up to them. The money's theirs, they earnt it. How did they earn it? By working, by contributing to the UK economy.

[Kanamori]

So from white working class to multicultural....what? Perhaps the employment minister is a little racist herself.

I don't think it necessarily illustrates any racism. The fact of the matter is that there are tensions in some areas.

[Ianofsmeg16]

Remember racism applies to all races, in my city the blacks and asians communities are as racist as any white community. Ask any white lad who has ever entered Alum Rock or Handsworth Wood of an evening, the chances are they have subjected to abuse, most likely battered and relieved of any cash just because of their colour
Here BKB Makes a good point, alot of Racism that goes on today is Blacks and asians against whites. White guys just see it as yet another mugging and, too be frank, cannot be bothered to play the race card. But if a white guy attacks a black guy or asian, its a racial assault.

Gah! Political Correctnes GAH!

[Radier]

Interesting views. BNP got 200 000 votes (0.7%) in the elections last year if I recall correctly. Are there old or young voters in general? Here in Sweden the suport for nationalists are strongest among youths (me included)... But they are not as 'extreeme' as BNP.

[Justiciar]

I'd say both tbh. For different reasons, perhaps, but if you've ever seen a BNP march or rally (my grandmother marched into one once hurling abuse at them.. go her) you'll probably see a few more older faces. That said young hormonal males tend to be easy pickings for far-right groups.

[Tribesman]

No they are not the same, and you as well as I know that- but you are making this an issue when it is not what was originally being debated.
Well Lancelot the issue is that this......I dont see why there is an automatic connection between people who may consider voting BNP and the race issue...does voting BNP make you a racist becuase other BNP members possibly are?
is rubbish .
The BNP is a racist organisation , it always has been and always will be , it is not racist because a few of its members "possibly" are , it is racist because of its policies .

So you think you have exploited our system etc etc, yet think you think that is somehow acceptable?
Too damn right it is acceptable , ask any businessman , that is what businesss is about and why a decent accountant is worth the cost . You exploit the system wherever you work for as much as you can .
So do you have issues with British people registering their firms in Singapore to exploit tax loopholes ?
Do you have issues with British people taking their British earned money and buying a home in Spain ?
Do you have issues with British poeple who become Manx or Channel Islanders to avoid tax ?
Do you have issues British with people retiring to Florida and stil getting their British pension?
Or is it only when foriegners do it that you have a problem ?
In which case ...In fact I consider the word 'racist' ascribed to a lot more things than it should be....
...you don't understand the word racist at all .
As is illustrated by .....Personally, would I lose any sleep if all non-nationals/immigrants had to leave the UK tomorrow....Id have to say probably not....does this mean I hate these people or think Im somehow better than them? No, not at all......if you don't think you are somehow better then why should they have to leave ?

[lancelot]

Too damn right it is acceptable , ask any businessman , that is what businesss is about and why a decent accountant is worth the cost . You exploit the system wherever you work for as much as you can .
So do you have issues with British people registering their firms in Singapore to exploit tax loopholes ?
Do you have issues with British people taking their British earned money and buying a home in Spain ?
Do you have issues with British poeple who become Manx or Channel Islanders to avoid tax ?
Do you have issues British with people retiring to Florida and stil getting their British pension?
Or is it only when foriegners do it that you have a problem ?

Well, if you read my last post I already mentioned I dont like the fact that Uk corporations purposely hire immigrants so they dont have to pay a national a decent wage for the same job, so yes I do disagree with all the things you mention...they are all exploiting the system.



In which case ...In fact I consider the word 'racist' ascribed to a lot more things than it should be....
...you don't understand the word racist at all .
As is illustrated by .....Personally, would I lose any sleep if all non-nationals/immigrants had to leave the UK tomorrow....Id have to say probably not....does this mean I hate these people or think Im somehow better than them? No, not at all......if you don't think you are somehow better then why should they have to leave ?

I defined my understanding of racism as such-

I believe if person A considers themselves genetically or intrinsically superior or irrationally hate person B becuase they are of a certain race then that is racism.

If you think other factors in the definition of race come into racism, then I submit that it is you who does not understand the word racism.

You apprently ascribe economics, nationality and political beliefs into race and what is/is not a racist.

I purposely left all mention of race out of the discussion regarding immigration/right to work etc etc....

[L'Impresario]

I dont like the fact that Uk corporations purposely hire immigrants so they dont have to pay a national a decent wage for the same job, so yes I do disagree with all the things you mention...they are all exploiting the system

Free market economy maybe? Why doesn't the invisible hand apply here heh

[Tribesman]

I purposely left all mention of race out of the discussion regarding immigration/right to work etc etc....
Ah I see , so it isn't racism , it is foriegnism :dizzy2:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Ah I see , so it isn't racism , it is foriegnism :dizzy2:

I forgot that the U.K. is a monoethnic, monoracial, monocultural state
:dizzy2:

:2thumbsup:

edit: look at us, we could be twins.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Here BKB Makes a good point, alot of Racism that goes on today is Blacks and asians against whites. White guys just see it as yet another mugging and, too be frank, cannot be bothered to play the race card. But if a white guy attacks a black guy or asian, its a racial assault.


That was not quite the point that BKB makes. Blacks, Asians and other ethnic groups will experience more racism in the UK. This is not because they are more moral than whites: it is because they are minorities. There are probably the same percentage of racists in each group, but minorities are more vulnerable and our society should protect vulnerable people.


Well, if you read my last post I already mentioned I dont like the fact that Uk corporations purposely hire immigrants so they dont have to pay a national a decent wage for the same job, so yes I do disagree with all the things you mention...they are all exploiting the system.


Very often it is the public sector that does this. Corporations that require cheaper labour tend to re-locate to countries where wages are lower, but you can't relocate a hospital or move your school to a third world country to get it cleaned in the evening.


Well, I think we are getting into profoundly different territory there...and in a way I agree, immigrants do do a lot of the work here that no one else is willing to do... as I said that is part of a different issue- that of corporate greed and companies purposely seeking people who will work to line their own pockets, instead of paying someone a decent wage for the work...which is equally unaccpetable.

"purposely seeking people who will work to line their own pockets"

Why else do people work?

Are you accepting that imigrants are being exploited since they are not being paid a decent wage? If so, why are you prepared to accept them being re-patriated?


I defined my understanding of racism as such-

I believe if person A considers themselves genetically or intrinsically superior or irrationally hate person B becuase they are of a certain race then that is racism.

If you think other factors in the definition of race come into racism, then I submit that it is you who does not understand the word racism.


I am not sure that you can rationally hate a person because they are of a certain race. In any case, even if "irrational" is removed, I think this definition of racism is too restricted, because it allows people to hold racist views and promote racist policies and still say it is not because of these peoples' race that I hold this view or this policy will not be carried out in a spirit of hate. Political exploitation of racism involves indentifying a group, blaming them for a problem and drawing up policies to target that group. It does not matter whether the problem is unemployment, eccononic decline or "erosion of our culture". If you blame and then target a particular ethnic group, you are a racist. This is what the BNP does. They are racists.

[lancelot]

"purposely seeking people who will work to line their own pockets"

Why else do people work?


I think I didnt express myself properly here, I meant -

that of corporate greed and companies purposely seeking people who will work for cheap to line their own corporate pockets, instead of paying someone a decent wage for the work...which is equally unaccpetable.

I have added in words that should clear my previous statement up.




I am not sure that you can rationally hate a person because they are of a certain race. In any case, even if "irrational" is removed, I think this definition of racism is too restricted, because it allows people to hold racist views and promote racist policies and still say it is not because of these peoples' race that I hold this view or this policy will not be carried out in a spirit of hate.

I think you are highlighting the exact problems I was trying to comment on in my original posts, namely- the definition of racism. You feel my definition is too restriceted- thats fine, not everybody will agree...however I see the lack of restriction as part of the problem. I feel the term racist is too loosley defined, hence my more restricted definition.

I feel that the race card gets played far too liberally and hence what is/is not racist can get muddied and confused.

Yes people can hold racist views and promote racist policies and still say it is not because of these peoples' race- but that would be lying...and anybody can do that about anything. Because people can say one thing while meaning the other does not mean that the definition of racism should be thrown wide open to cover as much ground as possible.



Political exploitation of racism involves indentifying a group, blaming them for a problem and drawing up policies to target that group. It does not matter whether the problem is unemployment, eccononic decline or "erosion of our culture". If you blame and then target a particular ethnic group, you are a racist. This is what the BNP does. They are racists.

Again, yes- the nefarious politicain can use politics to identify a group with underlying race motives...but I think we are moving away from what defines racism to how racism can be used, which is a different issue.

Lets look at it another way...lets take your average 1940's SS Nazi.

1) He hates Jews, blacks, gypsies and many other groups, he despises them, he thinks he and his race are better than aforementioned groups, he thinks they are all scum...clearly some hefty racism.

He also thinks- 2) That only germans should be allowed to live and work in germany. This is nationalism.

Remove section 2, you still have a racist...remove section 1 and you have a nationalist...there is no race issue. Nationalism does not equal racism.

Thats all Im saying...if people are talking about race...then talk about race, dont throw half a dozen other things into the pot and call it race.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

That was not quite the point that BKB makes. Blacks, Asians and other ethnic groups will experience more racism in the UK. This is not because they are more moral than whites: it is because they are minorities. There are probably the same percentage of racists in each group, but minorities are more vulnerable and our society should protect vulnerable people.


Mate come to Birmingham and you will clearly see the Asian and Black communities are most certainly not the minority, that is not hearsay that is a fact.

Minorities get racist abuse the world over, i have seen young carib youths scream racist abuse at asian women, i have seen a white old fella at my train station get called "What a looking at you white f****r?" by asian youths and so much more examples i could write page after page of them. Mate come to the big cities and you will see this idea of multi-culturalism is garbage, people don't always walk hand in hand, you get racism everywhere on all sides, often regardless of colour, the Caribbean's of Brum hate the black africans and have been merrily gone around hated and battering one enough for years. Asian, black and white areas often separate themselves and all you see is divide.

I don't know what Gloucester is like but in Birmingham its the way i have described it. I don't know about anywhere else but i have lived in brum most of my life and have seen it with my own eyes.

[Duke of Gloucester]

I don't know what Gloucester is like but in Birmingham its the way i have described it. I don't know about anywhere else but i have lived in brum most of my life and have seen it with my own eyes.

Well there is quite a big moslem community in Gloucester, at least one of whom is notorious:

BBC news (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/3247552.stm)

I have never experienced or witnessed any problems in Gloucester, but I don't live in Gloucester, I live in Bradford ..... (that's how I have heard of Keighley, IA)


Mate come to Birmingham and you will clearly see the Asian and Black communities are most certainly not the minority, that is not hearsay that is a fact.

According to the 2001 census, the majority population in Birmingham is white. Here is a link to some facts:

2001 Census ethnic data for Birmingham (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/profiles/00cn.asp#ethnic)

but I know what you mean. In some parts of Birmingham Asians and Blacks will be a majority, but even in Birmingham and Bradford, Asians are a minority. Check the census data for Bradford if you don't believe me. I don't support multiculturalism because I don't really know what it means. I do support freedom to follow any lifesyle one chooses provided it does not affect the freedom of others. I don't accept the idea that you can group people according to their race, nationality, gender or hair colour and make meaningful statements about their characteristics or behaviour. I strongly oppose scapegoating groups and the idea of repatriation is an abomination. If the above is multiculturism, then I support it, but I think it is just tollerance and common sense. If multiculturism means we should all eat chicken tikka masalla and celebrate Divali, well that's silly. No one should support that. (Although I do like chicken tikka masalla).

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Then mate surely you can sympathise with Birmingham and my views on the subject?

[InsaneApache]

Bradford here too. My favourite is Keema massala, with fresh green chillies, chuppatti x3 and a side of seekh kebabs.

In my trade I just wouldn't be able to function were it not for minorities. I truly cannot remember the last time I used a supplier that wasn't either from the Indian sub-continent or was Jewish. The school I attended in Manchester was approximately 30-40% Jewish. The only friction I can recall is when they got to go home early during the winter, so that they would be home before dusk. It was, erroneously, thought that they had 'got away' with lessons. Not true, as they had to complete the work at home, without the aid of a teacher being present.

I say again. People from Keighley are strange. :laugh4:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I truly cannot remember the last time I used a supplier that wasn't either from the Indian sub-continent or was Jewish.

what are you? a curry house financier?

[InsaneApache]

what are you? a curry house financier?

Jewish curry? that's a new one. :laugh4:

I'm in the clothing trade. I own/manage a boutique.:juggle2:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Jewish curry? that's a new one. :laugh4:

I'm in the clothing trade. I own/manage a boutique.:juggle2:

Jews = money, Indians = curry

that was my logic.

Not far off though......