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Franconicus
04-21-2006, 11:29
I have a question on a more religious-historical than military-historical topic. Hope you do not mind!

Although I’d rather like to discuss it here, Kraxis, please move it to the backroom if you think here is not the right place for it.

At the Eastern holidays I had to realize that I had not understood one of the important issues of the bible and although I cogitated and read since then I still have no clue.

I am talking about the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God.

Obviously this is something that Jesus talked about quite often. However, like other things, it is not very clear what he meant. Obviously the listeners had a clear picture.

The Romans believed that Jesus wanted to build a kind of kingdom. In their view there could have been no coexistence of this KoH and the Imperium Romanum. So they killed him (INRI).

His own followers seemed to think similar. Obviously the death and the resurrection was something they had not foreseen. They were very depressed and had the feeling that the promises were not kept. Obviously they had believed that Jesus would install his rule at Jerusalem immediately.

For the ‘normal’ Jews the KoH was the recreation of the realm of Jerusalem, with a priest king like David or the Messias or God himself as king. Israel would have been at least the privileged country and, in an ethic way, the leading country.

The apostles still believed that the Kingdom was near, that it would come while they were still alive. They also seemed to think that it was a realm on earth, although maybe first all people had to die and resurged. However, they believed that it was a kingdom including the whole world or at least the whole Christianity.

Today I guess the authorities say that it is far at the end of time and maybe more a Kingdom in heaven than a Kingdom of Heaven.

Finally what Jesus says implicates that the KoH was already there, with him on earth, with his wonders and his new interpretation of the law.

So here are my questions:

What do you think that Jesus really meant? How will this kingdom come and what will it look like?

From the historical point how did the interpretation of this central point change through time? What were the main events, documents, persons … ?

Rodion Romanovich
04-21-2006, 11:43
IIRC according to some contemporary document the romans, shortly after killing Jesus, went around to his relatives and friends and planned to kill them too because they thought his teahcings were about political resistance to Rome, but the romans eventually realized it wasn't a political movement but more of a philosophical or religious, and that his kingdom "wasn't of this world", as it was expressed, which implies that his kingdom of heaven was mostly religious and/or philosophical. There's still room for many different interpretations though. Is it the Buddhist idea that much of how you interpret the world lies in your own mentality, and a form of escapism by forming heaven in your mind to be able to survive a life under roman occupation? Or was it a form of religious belief in an after-life in a heaven? Or a belief of rebirth like in Hinduism or Buddhism, that you yield something even if you die, by being transformed into earth, in which things will grow? Those things aren't clear, but it seems pretty clear that Jesus kingdom of heaven wasn't under any circumstance an empire even remotely resembling Rome.

doc_bean
04-21-2006, 23:08
I always felt there were three interpretations of the Kingdom of Heaven

1) the kingdom IN Heaven: not exactly the most interesting interpretation

2) a future world wide 'kingdom' on earth where everyone will live in peace and according to the will of God (whatever that may be), I think this is an important view: christians are supposed to improve this world an work towards creating the Kingdom of Heaven. I personally favor this view, since it humanizes the whole thing.

3)after judgement day the earth will be remade and the death shall rise and be judged, those worthy will be given an immortal body and live forever in this newly created paradise, the Kingdom of Heaven
(I probably got something a bit wrong here, but that's about the way it's supposed to go)

Csargo
04-22-2006, 05:19
I always felt there were three interpretations of the Kingdom of Heaven

1) the kingdom IN Heaven: not exactly the most interesting interpretation

2) a future world wide 'kingdom' on earth where everyone will live in peace and according to the will of God (whatever that may be), I think this is an important view: christians are supposed to improve this world an work towards creating the Kingdom of Heaven. I personally favor this view, since it humanizes the whole thing.

3)after judgement day the earth will be remade and the death shall rise and be judged, those worthy will be given an immortal body and live forever in this newly created paradise, the Kingdom of Heaven
(I probably got something a bit wrong here, but that's about the way it's supposed to go)

I believe that what doc bean is right. On his 2 point I think that when Jesus comes back like the Bible says that he will rule for some amount of time I believe but I'm not sure though:dizzy2:

Franconicus
04-24-2006, 16:05
I always felt there were three interpretations of the Kingdom of Heaven

1) the kingdom IN Heaven: not exactly the most interesting interpretation

2) a future world wide 'kingdom' on earth where everyone will live in peace and according to the will of God (whatever that may be), I think this is an important view: christians are supposed to improve this world an work towards creating the Kingdom of Heaven. I personally favor this view, since it humanizes the whole thing.

3)after judgement day the earth will be remade and the death shall rise and be judged, those worthy will be given an immortal body and live forever in this newly created paradise, the Kingdom of Heaven
(I probably got something a bit wrong here, but that's about the way it's supposed to go)

What about the internal kingdom? As a state of mind?
And what about the kingdom that started with the appearance of Jesus?

Does anybody know where the official version was fixed. Any council or so?

Rodion Romanovich
04-24-2006, 16:32
I'd guess the Nicaea church meeting or the release of the first version of the New Testament in the 4th century AD. But many of these things (Kingdom of Heaven etc.) were under debate for a long time. There was for example some dispute between orthodox and catholic Christians as to whether after death you came to heaven immediately or if you had to wait until the doom's day, both of which would imply slightly different interpretations of Kingdom of Heaven, where the former clearly implied a "parallell universe" style paradise, and the other a possible paradise on earth at the fullness of time. I don't recall how the conflict ended, if the parts agreed or if they're still having different opinions on it.

Incongruous
04-25-2006, 13:24
I belive most Christians (being impoverished and in dangerous circumstances) would like to think of an afterlife like kingdom of heaven. Whereas most people that go to my church belive more in a state of mind.