Minimum Wage

[Divinus Arma]

From the Social Justice Thread. It's a good tangent that deserves its own debate.

My view is this: Raise the wage, and prices will just go up, thus consequently reducing the value of the increase to right where it was. Worse yet, employers will hire less since labor costs will go up without an equivalent increase in productivity.

The fact is, minimum wage jobs are not meant to be lived on. They are good for transition, and that's about it. Individuals trying to live on minimum wage should focus on becoming more skilled in order to take higher wage jobs. These jobs require minimal responsibility and virtually no training. The individuals can be easily replaced, so there exists no economic incentive to pay them more.

It is completely contrary to supply and demand.

[Kagemusha]

In where i come from the minimum wage is calculated from the living cost index.After the taxes you should be able to provide the basics for yourself with it.But i know its entirely different coulture and economic model.

[Marcellus]

Individuals trying to live on minimum wage should focus on becoming more skilled in order to take higher wage jobs.

How easy would this be though? I haven't entered the job market yet so I can't really answer, but I suspect it's not that easy.

Introducing the minimum wage to Britain was one of the better things New Labour did. And contrary to some predictions, it did not destroy the economy. Something else that is good about the minimum wage in Britain is that it is increased fairly regularly roughly in line with increases in living expenses. I believe that in the US it hasn't been changed since 1997, meaning that when it next increases (so that it is high enough to ensure a basic standard of living), the size of the increase might be such that it could affect the economy.

[Divinus Arma]

How easy would this be though? I haven't entered the job market yet so I can't really answer, but I suspect it's not that easy.



Easy enough. Rent a room instead of an apartment. Work close enough to walk to work. I walked many a mile before I joined the military and at very early hours. I was also walking distance to a college, but chose not to attend at the time. I shared an apartment, which wasn't really a wise choice. I did much better when I was merely renting a room.

It takes hard work to move up in life. Some people don't want to work on bettering their situation, or decide they "can't", claiming it is too difficult. There are plenty of opportunities. If anything, we need a more structured global job/education/training network. Imagine if every opportunity was available in one easy to browse location? Oh wait. they have it already. It's called the internet. And it's free at the local library.

[Reverend Joe]

It takes hard work to move up in life. Some people don't want to work on bettering their situation, or decide they "can't", claiming it is too difficult.

:thinking: I thought it went "love thy neighbor", not "**** thy neighbor because he is a lazy ass."

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, there are some people who can pretty much only work minimum-wage jobs? As in, those who are born... well... stupid? I have worked with many of these people; they can be perfectly nice, perfectly normal people, only they are simply unfit for any other job than those at the bottom of the rung. Or maybe they have minimal schooling, and no means for any further schooling, so they have to stick with what they can get? My father was one of those people (the latter, not the former.) I am sure he would be overjoyed at your social darwinistic ideas here. Yeah, screw those at the bottom- they can make it if they try, and if they don't, well, too bad! It's their problem. They're just obviously unfit to be in our society.

[Redleg]

In where i come from the minimum wage is calculated from the living cost index.After the taxes you should be able to provide the basics for yourself with it.But i know its entirely different coulture and economic model.

Actually this sounds in practice like a decent system in which to evaluate if the wages being paid to the worker to insure that the individual will be at least able to survive on the wages being paid.

I don't necessarily agree with a mandatory minimum wage imposed on the employer by the Federal Government. I do think however that it is a necessary function of the government to evaluate the wages of the region to advise the employer's what would consitute a living wage for the workers of that area.

Then it would be up to the employer to decide what the demand and supply of labor is for their particular area. A good employer who wants to maintain a trained workforce will pay his employee's enough of a wage that they can live on that wage, and that he has an employeer can maintain his profit margin.

In all but a few sectors it costs more to train new employees then it does to pay a living wage that will satify the workforce and still maintain the profit margin for the company. In the areas that do not need a skilled workforce the bottom rung of the workforce will be subject to poor wages, minimum hours of work, (to defeat other requirements imposed on the employer by the government) and a high turnover of employees is the result of this practice, all in order for the employeer to increase his profit marigin.

A minimum wage is frankly a necessary evil for the government to impose on the employeers based upon the past abuses of the workforce by employeers.

[Divinus Arma]

:thinking: I thought it went "love thy neighbor", not "**** thy neighbor because he is a lazy ass."

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, there are some people who can pretty much only work minimum-wage jobs? As in, those who are born... well... stupid? I have worked with many of these people; they can be perfectly nice, perfectly normal people, only they are simply unfit for any other job than those at the bottom of the rung. Or maybe they have minimal schooling, and no means for any further schooling, so they have to stick with what they can get? My father was one of those people (the latter, not the former.) I am sure he would be overjoyed at your social darwinistic ideas here. Yeah, screw those at the bottom- they can make it if they try, and if they don't, well, too bad! It's their problem. They're just obviously unfit to be in our society.

In these instances, it is important for the individual to find a job that pays based on performance. Some low-skilled assembly and maufacturing jobs are like this. The harder the individual works, the more they get paid.

I simply do not agree with paying somebody for breathing. Capitalist society rewards those who contribute the most, and rightly so since it inspires most to achieve greater means for themselves. I agree that there are abuses. I also agree with Redleg that the minimum wage is a necessary evil. But should some WalMart employee get paid $14 an hour for stocking the shelves, cleaning barf from the kiddy section, or giving you that discontented groan when they hand you your bag full of chinese made crap?

To put it another way, there are two places I can choose to shop: The local grocery store which has intelligent and very helpful people working there, or WalMart, which is cheaper but has bottom dwellers giving you the finger on your way out. I pay a little more for the quality of service and the people who work there get paid more. Do they have the same skills? Essentially, but one knows the meaning of service and one does not.

And since when is schooling impossible? Community college is almost open enrollment and cheap as can be. There are plenty of trades to be learned that most average folks could pick up.

[lars573]

From the Social Justice Thread. It's a good tangent that deserves its own debate.

My view is this: Raise the wage, and prices will just go up, thus consequently reducing the value of the increase to right where it was. Worse yet, employers will hire less since labor costs will go up without an equivalent increase in productivity.

The fact is, minimum wage jobs are not meant to be lived on. They are good for transition, and that's about it. Individuals trying to live on minimum wage should focus on becoming more skilled in order to take higher wage jobs. These jobs require minimal responsibility and virtually no training. The individuals can be easily replaced, so there exists no economic incentive to pay them more.

It is completely contrary to supply and demand.
Ah the narrow and myopic view of the man who took up the olive green spoon and had everything handed to him on a military platter. Joining the military is like getting a 2 million dollar loan and paying it back by risking death for X amount of years.


Your whole argument is the assumption that raising minimum wage causes inflation. WTF man! :wall: doesn't work that way. And originally the purpose of minimum wage was to create a baisc pay level that could be lived on. Inflation happened before minimum wage and will always happen.

[Strike For The South]

Ah the narrow and myopic view of the man who took up the olive green spoon and had everything handed to him on a military platter. Joining the military is like getting a 2 million dollar loan and paying it back by risking death for X amount of years.


Your whole argument is the assumption that raising minimum wage causes inflation. WTF man! :wall: doesn't work that way. And originally the purpose of minimum wage was to create a baisc pay level that could be lived on. Inflation happened before minimum wage and will always happen.

Gay. The milatary is not just a 2 million dollar loan. I doubt its even that much the milatary is a decsion that takes away years of your life and within itslef dosent pay that great. So stop making wild accusations and go back to the sandbox

[Reverend Joe]

In these instances, it is important for the individual to find a job that pays based on performance. Some low-skilled assembly and maufacturing jobs are like this. The harder the individual works, the more they get paid.

I simply do not agree with paying somebody for breathing. Capitalist society rewards those who contribute the most, and rightly so since it inspires most to achieve greater means for themselves. I agree that there are abuses. I also agree with Redleg that the minimum wage is a necessary evil. But should some WalMart employee get paid $14 an hour for stocking the shelves, cleaning barf from the kiddy section, or giving you that discontented groan when they hand you your bag full of chinese made crap?

To put it another way, there are two places I can choose to shop: The local grocery store which has intelligent and very helpful people working there, or WalMart, which is cheaper but has bottom dwellers giving you the finger on your way out. I pay a little more for the quality of service and the people who work there get paid more. Do they have the same skills? Essentially, but one knows the meaning of service and one does not.

And since when is schooling impossible? Community college is almost open enrollment and cheap as can be. There are plenty of trades to be learned that most average folks could pick up.

Hard work is not guaranteed to pay off. The vast majority of low-level jobs pay the exact same, no matter how hard you work. I have seen this for myself.

I think the Wal-mart guy should be paid well, at least $8.00 an hour- he has a shitty job, but he was willing to take it, and put up with it, and so he is servicing society.

Not sure where you are going with the small store/ Walmart thing... are you saying certain people should get paid less because you don't like them?

And as for the community college- bull****. Yes, they can teach you some useful trades, and yes they are cheap, but when you are working on a minimum-wage job, eight hours a day, that means that the only time you get to go to school is at night, and that just does not work. You are physically and mentally exhausted by the time you get to your first class, and it gets to be too much, very quickly. You also usually need at least some outside help to go to a community college (or one that is worth a damn, anyway) and some people just don't have that.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

As a 15 year old kid getting a job soon, all I want is more money, money, money, money...:2thumbsup:

[lars573]

Gay. The milatary is not just a 2 million dollar loan. I doubt its even that much the milatary is a decsion that takes away years of your life and within itslef dosent pay that great. So stop making wild accusations and go back to the sandbox
I fail to see how sexual orientation has anything to do with this. And you can't freakin spell you hick, I don't know whether your trying to argue with me or proposition me. Although the propositioning might explain the gay crack. :idea2:

Sure it takes away years of your life, but so does any kind of post secondary. A military career for anyone who has enough sense to come in out of the rain will get all kinds of money thrown at them. No being in the military for about 5 years is like having a million dollar trust fund.

[Strike For The South]

I fail to see how sexual orientation has anything to do with this. And you can't freakin spell you hick, I don't know whether your trying to argue with me or proposition me. Although the propositioning might explain the gay crack. :idea2:

Sure it takes away years of your life, but so does any kind of post secondary. A military career for anyone who has enough sense to come in out of the rain will get all kinds of money thrown at them. No being in the military for about 5 years is like having a million dollar trust fund.

Im not entierly sure you understand this whole milatary deal it is so much more than that. There is the war death and dyinig part and then boot camp its not like you show up get a uni and a check.

[Divinus Arma]

Grrr. I got telefragged after a 30 minute post write up.

Let's play nice please. I don't want to see this thread get closed for flaming.


Ah the narrow and myopic view of the man who took up the olive green spoon and had everything handed to him on a military platter. Joining the military is like getting a 2 million dollar loan and paying it back by risking death for X amount of years.

No need to insult me or the military. It is obvious that you do not care for the military, so why posture your statements as if this is the reason you dislike the military? I would guess that you despise military service for personal or political reasons and thus you are jealous of the few benefits that are conferred upon those that would die for your right to speak and live in liberty. And 2 million? I wish.



Your whole argument is the assumption that raising minimum wage causes inflation. WTF man! doesn't work that way.

Oh really?

http://ideas.repec.org/p/lec/leecon/04-7.html
It is well established in the international literature that minimum wage increases compress the wages distribution. Firms respond to these higher labour costs by reducing employment, reducing profits, or raising prices.

http://www.ncpa.org/hotlines/min/pd082100a.html

Unemployment, Inflation And The Minimum Wage
The Federal Reserve's Open Market Committee meets tomorrow and may raise interest rates again in response to low unemployment. If the Federal Reserve believes the rate of unemployment is below NAIRU -- the non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment -- it will keep monetary policy tight and interest rates high.

NAIRU is the level of unemployment consistent with stable inflation. But it is not calculated on a monthly basis, and can only be estimated after the fact.

Press reports indicate the Federal Reserve puts NAIRU at 5 percent to 5.25 percent presently.

With 4 percent unemployment in the inflationary range, the Fed has been raising interest rates despite the lack of inflation in the Consumer Price Index.
Federal Reserve economist Peter Tulip says the largest single component of the NAIRU has been the minimum wage. The minimum wage prevents wages from falling when unemployment is high. Higher wage costs force employers to raise prices, thereby contributing to inflation.

Tulip concludes a 10 percent rise in the minimum wage raises the NAIRU by about half a percentage point.

Increases in the minimum wage in the 1960s and 1970s caused the NAIRU to almost double (see figure).

By the late 1960s, the minimum wage was responsible for more than half of the NAIRU.

But when the nominal (money) value of the minimum wage during the 1980s was frozen, NAIRU fell from more than 7 percent in 1980 to less than 5 percent by the end of the decade.
In response to the declining NAIRU, the Fed eased monetary policy, contributing to strong growth in the 1980s. When George Bush raised the minimum wage, the Fed tightened money policy in the early 1990s. Likewise, Bill Clinton's minimum wage increases are causing the NAIRU to rise.

Source: Bruce Bartlett, senior fellow, National Center for Policy Analysis, August 21, 2000.

For text http://www.ncpa.org/oped/bartlett.html

For more on Economic Effects of Minimum Wages http://www.ncpa.org/hotlines/min/econ.html


Labor is no different from any commodity or production factor. It costs money to hire and retain talented and untalented individuals. Increasing the cost of labor affects the price of production and distribution. In turn, companies respond by reducing hiring or increasing prices. Wage inflation directly contributes to product price inflation.

Think of it this way: We laborers are no different from a service or product in the modern capitalist society. Perhaps in a subsistence farming economy, those who refuse to work would simply die. But we now live in a mutually supporting international economy, where we cannot reasonably expect to "farm the land" for our own exclusive benefit. Nor would we want to, since capitalism allows goods exchange to the benfit of all. My point is this: since we laborers are a product/service we must differentiate ourselves to make us more marketable. To compete and succeed, we must either (a) reduce our "price" (like illegal aliens), or (b) increase our skills to make us more attractive "products".

Hard work is not guaranteed to pay off. The vast majority of low-level jobs pay the exact same, no matter how hard you work. I have seen this for myself.
Zorba, we have had a discussion on the difficulty of life in poverty, remember? I was there picking aluminum cans to recycle too. I will concede that unskilled merit-pay based jobs are indeed being eliminated with the advance of technology and automation, but there are a few of these jobs left. There is little one can do but cry and wait for death or become more skilled.


I think the Wal-mart guy should be paid well, at least $8.00 an hour- he has a shitty job, but he was willing to take it, and put up with it, and so he is servicing society.

He is not "willing to take it". He must take it, because he refuses to aspire to greater challenges or is simply incapable of doing so due to lack of intelligence.


Not sure where you are going with the small store/ Walmart thing... are you saying certain people should get paid less because you don't like them?

It is not that I do not like them. It is that they are easily replaceable with other low skilled uninspired members of the "victim" class.


And as for the community college- bull****. Yes, they can teach you some useful trades, and yes they are cheap, but when you are working on a minimum-wage job, eight hours a day, that means that the only time you get to go to school is at night, and that just does not work. You are physically and mentally exhausted by the time you get to your first class, and it gets to be too much, very quickly.
No sympathy from me. I work 60+ hours a week between two very demanding jobs and still find time to attend Graduate Business School full-time. It is hard work, make no mistake. But in the end, it is I who control my destiny.



You also usually need at least some outside help to go to a community college (or one that is worth a damn, anyway) and some people just don't have that.

Think of yourself as an investment. It costs money, but I promise that you will get a positive return on your investment after time has passed. Contrary to lars573's comments, the military is not a free ride and I have several thousand in student loans. But I chose expensive schooling. Community college is pretty cheap.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Raise the wage, and prices will just go up, thus consequently reducing the value of the increase to right where it was

Obviously increasing wages will cause upward pressure on prices, but to say that the value of the increase would be "right where it was" assumes that the only cost of production is the wage cost and that consumption is restricted to items produced by minimum-wage workers. In short inflation will be higher than it would otherwise have been, but not enough to eliminate the benefit to those on the minimum wage.


Capitalist society rewards those who contribute the most, and rightly so since it inspires most to achieve greater means for themselves.

Capitalist society does no such thing. It rewards those who can command the highest pay. Whether these are those who contribute the most or not is contentious to say the least. Who contributes more to society: a nurse or a management consultant? According to the above description of capitalism, the management consultant does. I disagree.


The fact is, minimum wage jobs are not meant to be lived on.

If this is the case, they are only intended for the very young who might be expected to live at home, or they are immoral. Why should you offer a job at less than the money someone needs to support themselves?

A minimum wage is essential in any state that has social security support. If not, employers will offer low wages and expect the state to make up the difference between the pay and an acceptable income. In this way, taxpayers are subsidising employers. This is not a new problem. Follow the link for an 18th century example of this happening:

Speenhamland system (wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speenhamland)

[Tribesman]

Wage inflation directly contributes to product price inflation.

Chicken and egg Divinus , since price inflation directly contributes to wage inflation .

[Divinus Arma]

All you socialists are the same. You want something for nothing. Or something for very little. So every person who works a turd job should be given a "living wage" just because they breathe and trudge to their worthless job every day? Those who are unskilled are replaceable. We naturally place a value on skill. Maybe all of these unskilled workers should combine their meager resources and live under the same roof. What is a "living wage"? Entitlement to a vehicle? A single family home? Give me a break. If all you can do is clean toilets, then you are of little consequence to the workings of the societal machine. I agree with Redleg, that there must be some minimum, but the rest of these arguments are silly.

Yes, Capitalism does reward those that society values most. Should a Doctor be pauid the same as a janitor? No. And if this were the case, we would have less Doctors. There must be an incentive to work hard. Performance must be linked to rewards. If anything, society's values are screwed up. Teachers make very little in the U.S., for example. That is a shame. Many cops and firefighters are underpaid. (Nurses, btw, do quite well in this country since there is a shortage of skilled and trained nurses. See an opportunity here, those who would whine? Supply and demand. Low supply equals higher prices.)



Here is an idea. Let's just establish a base government pay rate for everybody, regardless if they work. Those who choose not to work we'll simply call artists. Anybody who chooses to work will be taxed at 80%, so they can keep 20% of what they make as an incentive to work. That way, everyone gets "their fair share" for having been spit out screaming into a pile of blood and placenta. /sarcasm

[lancelot]

Regardless of fiscal considerations I would suggest that there is a moral need for a decent minimum wage, if for no other reason than to stop the owners of large companies from taking the piss even more than they do now.

If anything workers rights have taken a nose dive in the last 10 years... How many people do you know that voluntarily have to be in work 30mins earlier than their official start time (unpaid of course) because its the done thing or something like that?

The last job I applied for I was expected to work 30mins later than stated every day; and work some saturdays for regular wage (no overtime- which is increasingly a thing of the past these days) and work weekends near the holidays and for all that they said I would be able to leave 10 mins or so early 'ocasionally'

The point is I had to agree to this farce just to get the job and thats how they do it...these days you have to voulunteer to be treated like a jerk!...otherwise they find someone else....all the while with a smile on my face, acting like I was grateful for this privelige they were offering me...

[rory_20_uk]

And to protect the economy we then have tarrifs. Look at the EU: running scared (and rightly so) from the threat of the Chinese. They earn what? £1 an hour in some cases. How can workers here compete on over 4 times that salary? The only way is to include a massive price hike when the goods come over here, or just say the goods aren't welcome.

Some people are stupid. Sad but true. Join the police (you have to be VERY stupid for them not to take you), or perhaps the Army - there are options out there.

Sure they have fewer than many of us. But I'll never be a pilot. My eyesight is too poor. That is my genes. I can't sue god, so I get on with it.

~:smoking:

[Ser Clegane]

A word of advice to everybody:

Tune down a little bit - about half of the posters here use a very broad brush to make statements that could be considered quite offensive (and reek of almost unbelievable arrogance):


Gay. The milatary is not just a 2 million dollar loan. I doubt its even that much the milatary is a decsion that takes away years of your life and within itslef dosent pay that great. So stop making wild accusations and go back to the sandbox


And as for the community college- bull****


And you can't freakin spell you hick,


Or something for very little. So every person who works a turd job should be given a "living wage" just because they breathe and trudge to their worthless job every day? Those who are unskilled are replaceable.


Some people are stupid. Sad but true. Join the police (you have to be VERY stupid for them not to take you), or perhaps the Army - there are options out there.

The next post of this "quality" will lead to :dancinglock: and a "present" for the poster :stare:

[rory_20_uk]

In the UK there was a recent outcry that to be accepted by the police required LESS than the attainment required for 5Cs at GCSE. Considering that applicants are several years older and still unable to perform at this low level IMO makes them "stupid". Therefore the police is a suitable career.

The Army "In general, there are no specific requirements for GCSE or A Level passes" Again, I submit to you that someone who is "stupid" can still find employment in the Army.

If the demographics of the population's IQ is plotted, there will be some who are extremely low. Stupidity is a term for people of low IQ. People will low IQ have always been present, and I find that this is a fact, as well as an unfortunate one. Hence "sad but true".

My strokes with the brush were broad, but so was the topic. I hope that the evidence above can show that my comments were applicable to the situation.

~:smoking:

[Ser Clegane]

Considering that applicants are several years older and still unable to perform at this low level IMO makes them "stupid". Therefore the police is a suitable career.

So people who do not meet certain intellectual standards are are now called "stupid"? What's next? "village idiot"?
I guess some people here will again bemoan a perceived excess of political correctness - I doubt however, that those who you chose to call "stupid" will share this sentiment.

The use of the trem "stupid" in this context indeed reeks of arrogance and is - IMHO - not acceptable.

[_Martyr_]

In fairness to Rory, I dont think he meant Stupid in a bad sense, if you check the dictionary the first definition for Stupid is " Slow to learn or understand; obtuse." To be honest, if someone cannot achieve C's in an accademic test set for children a few years younger than the minimum age recuirement for the armed forces, then they ARE infact slow to learn... No? Thats not meant in a derogatory manner.

[rory_20_uk]

Fair enough, I can accept your view. Personally I feel the need to find ever more cringingly worded terms to point out something is as you state PC gone mad.

Village Idiot is a specific person in a village. Therefore it can not rightly be used to refer to a group of people.

The term "does not meet certain intellectual standards" is vague to the point it is meaningless, as well as being very longwinded.

Is "intellectually below average" allowed, or is that arrogant as well? Come to think of it, what context would you allow the term "stupid" to be allowed?

IMO, terms are sanitised until finally all meaning has been sucked out of them.

No person likes to have a negative term placed upon themselves. All of us have failings and faults. I fail to see why we should studiously avoid some and yet at the same time be allowed to imply others are arrogant - surely people being referred to as arrogant don't like that either.

~:smoking:

[lars573]

Grrr. I got telefragged after a 30 minute post write up.

Let's play nice please. I don't want to see this thread get closed for flaming.



No need to insult me or the military. It is obvious that you do not care for the military, so why posture your statements as if this is the reason you dislike the military? I would guess that you despise military service for personal or political reasons and thus you are jealous of the few benefits that are conferred upon those that would die for your right to speak and live in liberty. And 2 million? I wish.
I don't hate the military, I tried to join the reserves once (but was always a couple pieces of paper short). But what I dispise is people who think that a institution who's only joining requirement is grade 10 and not being physically or mentally handicapped not being a free ride. And 2 million is a number I pulled out of the air when considering how much money is spent on one person who joins.




Oh really?]

http://ideas.repec.org/p/lec/leecon/04-7.html
It is well established in the international literature that minimum wage increases compress the wages distribution. Firms respond to these higher labour costs by reducing employment, reducing profits, or raising prices.

http://www.ncpa.org/hotlines/min/pd082100a.html

Unemployment, Inflation And The Minimum Wage
The Federal Reserve's Open Market Committee meets tomorrow and may raise interest rates again in response to low unemployment. If the Federal Reserve believes the rate of unemployment is below NAIRU -- the non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment -- it will keep monetary policy tight and interest rates high.

NAIRU is the level of unemployment consistent with stable inflation. But it is not calculated on a monthly basis, and can only be estimated after the fact.

Press reports indicate the Federal Reserve puts NAIRU at 5 percent to 5.25 percent presently.

With 4 percent unemployment in the inflationary range, the Fed has been raising interest rates despite the lack of inflation in the Consumer Price Index.
Federal Reserve economist Peter Tulip says the largest single component of the NAIRU has been the minimum wage. The minimum wage prevents wages from falling when unemployment is high. Higher wage costs force employers to raise prices, thereby contributing to inflation.

Tulip concludes a 10 percent rise in the minimum wage raises the NAIRU by about half a percentage point.

Increases in the minimum wage in the 1960s and 1970s caused the NAIRU to almost double (see figure).

By the late 1960s, the minimum wage was responsible for more than half of the NAIRU.

But when the nominal (money) value of the minimum wage during the 1980s was frozen, NAIRU fell from more than 7 percent in 1980 to less than 5 percent by the end of the decade.
In response to the declining NAIRU, the Fed eased monetary policy, contributing to strong growth in the 1980s. When George Bush raised the minimum wage, the Fed tightened money policy in the early 1990s. Likewise, Bill Clinton's minimum wage increases are causing the NAIRU to rise.

Source: Bruce Bartlett, senior fellow, National Center for Policy Analysis, August 21, 2000.

For text http://www.ncpa.org/oped/bartlett.html

For more on Economic Effects of Minimum Wages http://www.ncpa.org/hotlines/min/econ.html


Ya rly.


Labor is no different from any commodity or production factor. It costs money to hire and retain talented and untalented individuals. Increasing the cost of labor affects the price of production and distribution. In turn, companies respond by reducing hiring or increasing prices. Wage inflation directly contributes to product price inflation.

Think of it this way: We laborers are no different from a service or product in the modern capitalist society. Perhaps in a subsistence farming economy, those who refuse to work would simply die. But we now live in a mutually supporting international economy, where we cannot reasonably expect to "farm the land" for our own exclusive benefit. Nor would we want to, since capitalism allows goods exchange to the benfit of all. My point is this: since we laborers are a product/service we must differentiate ourselves to make us more marketable. To compete and succeed, we must either (a) reduce our "price" (like illegal aliens), or (b) increase our skills to make us more attractive "products".

Hard work is not guaranteed to pay off. The vast majority of low-level jobs pay the exact same, no matter how hard you work. I have seen this for myself.
Zorba, we have had a discussion on the difficulty of life in poverty, remember? I was there picking aluminum cans to recycle too. I will concede that unskilled merit-pay based jobs are indeed being eliminated with the advance of technology and automation, but there are a few of these jobs left. There is little one can do but cry and wait for death or become more skilled.
You still assume that anyone can better themselfs and make more money. No. People with drive and a willingness to not have any kind of free time can do that. The vast majorit don't, and again your "I did so everyone else has too" paternalism is not realistic.



Think of yourself as an investment. It costs money, but I promise that you will get a positive return on your investment after time has passed. Contrary to lars573's comments, the military is not a free ride and I have several thousand in student loans. But I chose expensive schooling. Community college is pretty cheap.
You managed to screw up an obvious free ride. Wow! :no:

[Redleg]

I don't hate the military, I tried to join the reserves once (but was always a couple pieces of paper short). But what I dispise is people who think that a institution who's only joining requirement is grade 10 and not being physically or mentally handicapped not being a free ride. And 2 million is a number I pulled out of the air when considering how much money is spent on one person who joins.


Maybe you should focus on the arguement, not the ad hominem comments directed at the individual not the arguement.


Returning to the subject would be to argue why the Minimum Wage is important. What effect does it have not only on the economic well being of the people, but on society as a whole.

[Divinus Arma]

I don't hate the military, I tried to join the reserves once (but was always a couple pieces of paper short). But what I dispise is people who think that a institution who's only joining requirement is grade 10 and not being physically or mentally handicapped not being a free ride. And 2 million is a number I pulled out of the air when considering how much money is spent on one person who joins.
Actually, the standards in the U.S. were, and generally remain, pretty high. The recruit must have a High School Degree and be able to pass the ASVAB. The army has recently reduced the standards for enlistment, but the other branches are still very demanding. I have no idea what the standards are in other countries.




Ya rly.

Clicky. (https://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y42/GilGrissomCSI/No_not_rly_owl.jpg)


You still assume that anyone can better themselfs and make more money. No. People with drive and a willingness to not have any kind of free time can do that. The vast majorit don't, and again your "I did so everyone else has too" paternalism is not realistic.

What a crying shame. Everybody wants their precious free time. I say work now and play later. The modern product/service economy has created a world full of spoiled and lazy people. Work sucks. But it also pays.


Or something for very little. So every person who works a turd job should be given a "living wage" just because they breathe and trudge to their worthless job every day? Those who are unskilled are replaceable.

Let me rephrase:

Or something for very little. So every person who works a turd low-skill job should be given a "living wage" better salary than Doctors just because they breathe and trudge skip to their worthless wonderfully important job every day? Those who are unskilled are replaceable the most important people in society.

[Ser Clegane]

Apparently it is not possible to discuss the issue of minimum wages without mocking and belittling those who lack the superior skills and dedication of the more worthy part of society and instead have to make their living based on low-paid jobs.

What a shame :shame: