Amazing Ignorance of the American gas consumer (a rant in c minor)

[Devastatin Dave]

It simply amazes me watching the Communist News Network (CNN) and seeing people bitching about the "record" profits of the oil companies. Listening to the morons out there in "I'll believe whatever the Democrats and Republicans propoganda machine (the media) tells me" land it is no surprise why our education system is failing.

Gas/oil companies make on average 7 to 8 % profit on gas. Right now most industries/corperations are making much larger prophit margins but for some reason everyone is going ape feces over oil profits. Guess who makes the most money off the gas we buy? The GOVERNMENT!!! The same people that want to spend millions on BS inquiries on "record" prophits that the big evil oil corperations are making right now.

If these so called outraged senators/congressmen want to give the American people a break, stop charging .50 to the dollar on each gallon of gas!!! And with thier BS talk about inquiries on the "record" profits on gas will only make the futures on this product higher and cause the prices to go even higher.

Both Republicans and Democrats should be ashamed for trying to scam even more money from this with these hearings. That goes for the stupid idea from Spector the other day of a windfall profit tax. How the hell is that going to make the prices go down by adding another tax. Corperations don't won't pay that tax, it will be passed down to the consumer.

But I'm sure most of you disagree with me since most of you have been brainwashed enough to believe that the government is taxing the living #### out of us all for the betterment of society. Just pop your mouth of the government tit for 5 minutes and try to understand that this is the biggest scam that the government has ever thrown at the American people since social(ist) security.
This is Bush's fault and everyone under him. I'm madder than hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3:

[Byzantine Mercenary]

''gas'' in britain is even more expensive, with loads more tax, you guys are lucky!
as something runs out, its gonna get more expensive!

[drone]

Like this is going to help:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/27/gas.rebate/index.html

I can't believe that someone would actually propose sending $100 to every taxpayer for "gas" relief. What, the national debt not big enough already? Besides, $100 is just enough to fill up an H2 Hummer, what about next week? :dizzy2:

Oh yeah, almost forgot. It's soon to be election time....

[solypsist]

whoa that's some post. paragraphs?

http://www.nccu.edu/artsci/pe/exploding-head.gif

[Dutch_guy]

''gas'' in britain is even more expensive, with loads more tax, you guys are lucky!
as something runs out, its gonna get more expensive!

Same here in Holland, though I'm not sure of the taxes on gas, you guys over there are pretty cheap in comparison.

:balloon2:

[Devastatin Dave]

whoa that's some post. paragraphs?

http://www.nccu.edu/artsci/pe/exploding-head.gif
Edited just for you my little sugar nipple...:2thumbsup:

[drone]

Probably the smartest thing Bush has said: "We are addicted to oil". Shame it took him 5 years to realize it. We can't blame the oil companies, they are just satisfying our demand. We can't blame the automakers, we won't buy small cars. All we can do is blame ourselves for our own shortsighted, indulgent behaviour.

The tax here in the US is nothing like what you Euros pay. When the actual cost of gas goes up, we tend to feel it more since tax is a smaller percentage of the overall price at the pump.

[Tribesman]

But I'm sure most of you disagree with me since most of you have been brainwashed enough to believe that the government is taxing the living #### out of us all for the betterment of society. Just pop your mouth of the government tit for 5 minutes and try to understand that this is the biggest scam that the government has ever thrown at the American people since social(ist) security.

Errrr....Dave , wasn't you sucking at the government tit for most of your working life or do you think that your nice blue uniform and exotic holiday in S.Korea was paid for by something other than taxes ?~;)

[Devastatin Dave]

Errrr....Dave , wasn't you sucking at the government tit for most of your working life or do you think that your nice blue uniform and exotic holiday in S.Korea was paid for by something other than taxes ?~;)
Well if you are comparing my service to the country for a low wage, being deployed away from my family for a year and being honorably discharge after ten years of providing security for my country to some parasite that doesn't work, breeds little parasites, drinks 40's all day, does drugs, and blames everyone else for not being responsible, then I'm guilty as charged for "sucking off the tit" of the government. Of course in your world, someone that actually works doesn't deserve any consideration compared to worthless ####s that don't do #### while recieving a check. Thanks for the insult. How about responding to the topic on hand than being your usual trolling self. :2thumbsup:

[JAG]

If there was more tax put on gas over there you might actually get it into your heads that it isn't good to buy the biggest piece of metal, you call a car, and drive everywhere when a five minute walk would do and fill up the car to the brink everyday. More tax not less is needed, it might help you guys get your head out of the proverbial and do something about your insane usage of oil.

And you're defending the oil companies? HA! They make more money at everyones expense - and are the most selfish companies around - than anyone else. Dave what have they ever done for you except rip you and every worker in this world off? It is people like you Dave which cause us all to get screwed over, day after day, yet do nothing about it, people like you are the biggest fools on the planet.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

It is people like you Dave which cause us all to get screwed over, day after day, yet do nothing about it, people like you are the biggest fools on the planet.

how's your horse?

[Tribesman]

How about responding to the topic on hand than being your usual trolling self.
So Dave , you don't like tax , you don't like the government wasting tax money , and you don't like the government giving out bullshit .
Welcome to the world .:laugh4:
This is Bush's fault and everyone under him.
Welcome to the real world :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[yesdachi]

Here (http://money.howstuffworks.com/gas-price.htm) is a great site describing the breakdown of gas prices. I have spoilered a portion about the tax breakdown.

Taxes - Taxes, including federal and local, account for about 20 percent of the total price of gas in the United States. Federal excise taxes are 18.4 cents per gallon, and state excise taxes average 20 cents per gallon. There may also be some additional state sales taxes, as well as local and city taxes. In Europe, gas prices are far higher than in America because taxes on gas are much higher. For example, gas prices in England have risen as high as $6 per gallon, with 78 percent of that going to taxes.
It is frustrating to see gas/oil companies enjoying such massive profits but it is even more frustrating that the government has done absolutely everything they can to stop us from advancing oil and oil to gas production here. No new drilling in the continental 48 states, no expanded pumping in Alaska (the Alaskan Pipeline only operates at %40), not allowing any new refineries to be built in over 25 years, etc. (I’m not checking my facts BTW) We have allowed our government to apply so many restrictions on oil production and so few on oil use that the slightest adjustment throws us into a crunch.

Where the oil/gas companies frustrate me is in the fact that every year and especially this year with new ethanol additive requirements they act like it is a big surprise that more people are using more gas and there are these “shortages” that force price increases to discourage us from buying more. Summer comes the same time every year.

I am 100% for eliminating/reducing the use of fossil fuels but let’s use some of what we have or can have right now and ease the burden on the wallets of the working class and set up some realistic timeframes and goals for a switch over to more eco-friendly fuels.

I would really like the gas/oil companies to run some commercials detailing the price breakdown of a gallon of gas and tell the public to stop being pissed at them although they are greedy old monopoly making oil barons they are not nearly as bad as our own government.

[Devastatin Dave]

.

And you're defending the oil companies? HA! They make more money at everyones expense - and are the most selfish companies around - than anyone else. Dave what have they ever done for you except rip you and every worker in this world off? It is people like you Dave which cause us all to get screwed over, day after day, yet do nothing about it, people like you are the biggest fools on the planet.
Since you apparently can't read a map and compare the topography of your little nation to the US let me assist you. The United States is much larger and public transportation works better where you live because of the shorter distances between places you need to go. Another thing that your socialist mind can't comprehend is that the amount of profit the oil companies is much lower than the majority of everyday products (food products, clothing, etc). Again the largest chunk of money that is in the price of gas goes to the government, not the oil companies. If it was up to you we would all be happy little North Koreans or Cubans working 15 hours a day and being murdered for even mentioning disdain for our governments. Sorry, I prefer a free market and a good economy not in the hands of government. So while you respond from your computer that was made possible by the capitalist engine and not by some governmental socialist system, wallow in your hypocrisy for anyone with any concept of supply and demand laughs at you. Power to the people comrade.:laugh4:

[master of the puppets]

Yeah, the government is getting most of the money from oil production, why?, because they ARE the oil companies, i heard (heard mind you) that like 30% of the rich polotitions are wealthy due to oil, bush is!, when we say the government is lining the pockets of oil companies aren't they simply benifiting themselves?

[Proletariat]

The only thing that's more annoying at the moment than all the people who complain about this issue who own completely unnecessary, fashion SUVs are the Euros who complain about their gas prices. Socialized healthcare isn't free, for God's sake.

[_Martyr_]

Neither are hundred billion dollar wars... go figure.

[doc_bean]

I'm actually on dave's side in this one, the oil companies have shown a ton of good will over time. Sure they make a hell of a profit, but not nearly what they could have made, owning the most in-demand resource in the world.



The only thing that's more annoying at the moment than all the people who complain about this issue who own completely unnecessary, fashion SUVs are the Euros who complain about their gas prices. Socialized healthcare isn't free, for God's sake.

1. the money isn't spent on healthcare, at least not here
2. Dave was complaining, and venting about Americans complaining, Europeans just added that you guys still get it pretty cheap.
3. You own a SUV don't ya ? :inquisitive:

[Devastatin Dave]

2. Dave was complaining, and venting about Americans complaining, Europeans just added that you guys still get it pretty cheap.

A good American rant with some good spices from the Old World makes a thread complete!!!:2thumbsup:

[Devastatin Dave]

Here's my government leaders showing their support for the American people...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/26/AR2006042602307_pf.html
Much like many quasi-socilalist here railing against capitalism on their supped-up computers that can have over 10,000 troops on their screen with 0 delay.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

The only thing that's more annoying at the moment than all the people who complain about this issue who own completely unnecessary, fashion SUVs are the Euros who complain about their gas prices. Socialized healthcare isn't free, for God's sake.
didn't we establish that you guys spend more per person on healthcare than us?

http://www.growingdemocracy.com/facts/f_healthspend.html

but i kinda support the tax anyway i was just pointing it out, oil is finite so it should be damn expensive, once you use it its gone, it ain't coming back and your stuck with extra co2 in the atmosphere!

[drone]

While a higher, Euro-style, tax on gasoline would force Americans to make smarter vehicular choices, I've always wondered what affect these taxes have on the overall economy. If I remember correctly, there is no gas tax exemption for trucking and freight in Europe. I would imagine that this has a large effect on the price of goods due to shipping costs. For this reason alone, I would not want a higher gas tax over here. Increased CAFE standards while closing the loopholes would be a better option in my opinion. The US automakers always complain about the CAFE levels, and it's cheaper to buy votes in Congress than it is to raise gas mileage, so we get the current situation. If forced into it though, I'm sure they could do better, it's just cheaper not to.

[solypsist]

thank god for mass transit

[Proletariat]

1. the money isn't spent on healthcare, at least not here
2. Dave was complaining, and venting about Americans complaining, Europeans just added that you guys still get it pretty cheap.
3. You own a SUV don't ya ? :inquisitive:

1. So you have nothing to show for your high gas taxes?
2. I know, and it's irrelevant.
3. What makes you think that?

[Lemur]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- we should be doing massive investment into green and renewable energy. Not because it's the right thing to do, but because it's the next big market.

And Dave's rant is uneven (as usual), but he's spot-on about how funny it is to see people driving vehicles that get ten miles to the gallon kvetching about gas prices. Cause, meet effect. Effect, meet cause.

Oil has probably peaked. It's time to get serious about the next big thing. In the meantime there ain't much anybody can do about gas prices. Not George W. Not Hillary C., not Queen E., nobody. 'Nuff said.

[Csargo]

Edited just for you my little sugar nipple...:2thumbsup:

Umm.............ok I'm officially freaked out now.:laugh4:

[yesdachi]

In the meantime there ain't much anybody can do about gas prices.
Well… except for the people who own the oil fields, they could raise um. ~D


I think you are correct about getting on the bandwagon early for the “next big thing”.

[Strike For The South]

There is no mass tranist in my city. I live far enough out to where the bus is a good hr walk and they dont even cover the city. A smaller forigen car cant be used for what I need a vheicle for. Until mass transit is a realization or we a have viable new energy source gas should be lowered as much as possible.

[Crazed Rabbit]

If there was more tax put on gas over there you might actually get it into your heads that it isn't good to buy the biggest piece of metal, you call a car, and drive everywhere when a five minute walk would do and fill up the car to the brink everyday. More tax not less is needed, it might help you guys get your head out of the proverbial and do something about your insane usage of oil.


Here's a crazy thing: it's called freedom.

As in, freedom to do want you want without the government trying to push you to do one thing.


And you're defending the oil companies? HA! They make more money at everyones expense - and are the most selfish companies around - than anyone else. Dave what have they ever done for you except rip you and every worker in this world off? It is people like you Dave which cause us all to get screwed over, day after day, yet do nothing about it, people like you are the biggest fools on the planet.

The most selfish companies? Please.
It's called supply and demand. Supply is not going up much. Worldwide demand is rapidly increasing. Also, refineries are phasing out MTBE additives after getting stabbed in the back by the government, and the ethanol makers aren't coming online as fast as they said they would.

Would you rather the oil companies didn't exist? No gas might put a bit of a dent in the economy.

Ripping people off? Do you really think the gas companies, whom you say care only for profit, would not slash prices so as to get more business and thus more money? Try and comprehend economics instead of just repeating your monthly solialist student's pamphlet.

Oh, and how does you hate or oil companies square with your love for Chavez, who controls Citgo?

And Lemur, while I support more renewable energy and I believe we are headed that direction, I don't support the government spending money trying to move it along. When was the last time the government spent money wisely? And how are the airheads in congress going to know which clean system to back?

Crazed Rabbit

[solypsist]

i understand the economics of supply and demand and yet i have a negative visceral reaction when i hear the phrase "record profits" and realize that oil companies are still being subsidized by the u.s. gov't.

[Tribesman]

Oh, and how does you hate or oil companies square with your love for Chavez, who controls Citgo?

Would that be the Chavez that is swapping oil for medical assistance for the countries poor , or the Chavez that is shipping subsidised heating oil to poor neighbourhoods in the US , or is that a different Chavez ?

[Proletariat]

And the visceral reactions are the least helpful or informed on this matter. When you have seven out of the top ten biggest oil companies in the world being state run, the American companies need every dollar they can to compete.

Guess who those states are, by the way?

[Devastatin Dave]

Oh, and how does you hate or oil companies square with your love for Chavez, who controls Citgo?

Would that be the Chavez that is swapping oil for medical assistance for the countries poor , or the Chavez that is shipping subsidised heating oil to poor neighbourhoods in the US , or is that a different Chavez ?
LOL, how much of a percentage of the profits his making from his oil do you think is going to his little leftist PR stunts? I guess enough to make stupid liberals believe he's the greatest thing since the water bong.:laugh4:

[Joker85]

LOL, how much of a percentage of the profits his making from his oil do you think is going to his little leftist PR stunts? I guess enough to make stupid liberals believe he's the greatest thing since the water bong.:laugh4:

Well, John Gotti and Al Capone donated to charity. Hell Capone opened soup kitchens. It's been a PR move for ages, and it works.

Ah... good ole scarface Al.

[doc_bean]

1. So you have nothing to show for your high gas taxes?

The money goes to 'general' overhead and special projects to promote 'green technology' I believe, but yes, we have little to show for it.


2. I know, and it's irrelevant.

What, Dave complains about gas prices and suddenly it's OUR fault ?


3. What makes you think that?

You seemed pretty sensitive to the subject. Although i admit those whinos are annoying. Over here we had a 'gang' slashing the tires of SUVs when they were parked in the street. It stated a pretty heated debate (mostly fought out in newspaper and magazine letters) between those pro and contra.

[English assassin]

Pausing there, is there any actual reason why American cars could not do European MPG? I mean, I'm not asking that you all buy the latest Citroen Euroweenie, you could still have your Ford Fandango pick up with gun rack and a horn that plays Dixie, just put an engine in it that maybe gets 30 MPG?

After all last I saw Mercedes, BMW, Volvo et all were making big cars, but just big cars that get OK fuel economy.

Just a thort, seeing as I don't see oil prices coming down..

[doc_bean]

Pausing there, is there any actual reason why American cars could not do European MPG? I mean, I'm not asking that you all buy the latest Citroen Euroweenie, you could still have your Ford Fandango pick up with gun rack and a horn that plays Dixie, just put an engine in it that maybe gets 30 MPG?

After all last I saw Mercedes, BMW, Volvo et all were making big cars, but just big cars that get OK fuel economy.

Just a thort, seeing as I don't see oil prices coming down..

I'm guessing it makes the cars more expensive. Also 'our' most efficient technology, the Direct Diesel Injection, is not used by US manufacturers, who prefer hybrid technology for fuel efficient design. Of course a single diesel engine is cheaper than a hybrid, which contains both a combustion and an electrical engine, so fuel efficient cars aren't cheap across the pond. Hybrid technology is more environmentally friendly though, and I still believe it has a brighter future than diesel-only car engines.

I think there's just a big difference in mentality when it comes to engine design. Europeans have always needed/wanted efficient cars, after all, we have little to no oil of our own. US car designers have for the most part assumed that fuel costs wouldn't really matter that much, and they built their engines for speed and power. Being wasteful might have been a good thing for an engine too, after all, if it uses a lot of fuel it must be powerful, right ? :no:

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

i understand the economics of supply and demand and yet i have a negative visceral reaction when i hear the phrase "record profits" and realize that oil companies are still being subsidized by the u.s. gov't.


I thought that although the profits were at a record level as a total lump some, the profits as a % where lower than many other industries, they just seem so big because the oil companies are huge, therefore their profits would be expected to be a large figure.

i.e. Bill spends $1000 on his bakery and makes $2000 back so has 100% profits.
BP spends $100 billion on their little project which makes $108 billion so has 8% profits.

[naut]

A gallon is 4 litres right? That means in Aus it is AUS$5.60 per gallon. Hum so about US$4.26 per gallon. How much is it per gallon in the US?

[doc_bean]

A gallon is 4 litres right? That means in Aus it is AUS$5.60 per gallon. Hum so about US$4.26 per gallon. How much is it per gallon in the US?

if we're comparing...it's 5.84€/4l here, which is about 7.32$ a gallon.

And people wonder why I don't have a car :dizzy2:

[drone]

Pausing there, is there any actual reason why American cars could not do European MPG? I mean, I'm not asking that you all buy the latest Citroen Euroweenie, you could still have your Ford Fandango pick up with gun rack and a horn that plays Dixie, just put an engine in it that maybe gets 30 MPG?
The regulations are the problem. The "light truck" class of vehicle (pickups and SUV) was originally meant as farm or working vehicles. To help the farmers out, this class of vehicle was exempt from many of the safety, emission, and fuel economy regulations that were put in place for passenger cars, making the vehicles cheaper to produce. Once SUVs started to become popular, the car companies realized they had a huge moneymaker on their hands, since they could sell low-tech, cheap to build vehicles for large profits. It was actually better for them to make SUVs as big and ineffecient as possible, since that put them in an even higher exemption class (I think 6000 lbs curb weight did it, not certain on that). As stupid as it sounds, the regulations pushed the SUV sizes higher, and I can't see any way that a 6000+ vehicle is going to get 30 MPG.

There also was a light truck tariff on foriegn makes (something like 25%) that allowed the US companies to dominate, but I think that expired in the late 90's. The SUV craze is all about the US automakers maximizing profits based on byzantine regulations. And with the current troubles at GM and Ford, I'm pretty sure the gov is not going to crack down anytime soon. The tech is there, but the companies will complain that they will cost too much, blah, blah, blah...

PS - Current price in the DC area is around $3.05 a gallon. One US gallon is 3.785 Liters

[Lemur]

One of my favorite pundits nails the issue nicely: (http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/04/what_charles_sa.html)


One simple conclusion: conservative government really is dead, isn't it? A conservative government would simply say: we have no control over global oil prices; consumers reap what they sow; companies should be left alone; and if your wallet is empty because of all that gas in your SUV, you've learned a useful lesson in self-government. If only Margaret Thatcher were around to punctuate that lecture with a swipe of her handbag.

[A.Saturnus]

The country with the highest energy consumption per capita pays the lowest prices for energy. And then people are blaming oil companies :dizzy2:

[Don Corleone]

Preach on, brother Lemur. Market forces will drive the gas prices to where they should be. As long as there's no collusion among gas companies, hey, it's a free market. The only place you might point at oil/gas companies as somewhat responsible for high gas prices is the fact that they don't build new refineries to increase capacity. But with all the government hurdles they have to leap to do so, one can hardly blame them. And even then, once they get approval, the NIMB-y pimbies... ~:argue: :hippie: (Not In My Backyard, the folks that want cheap gas, but won't allow a refinery to be built within 100 miles of their house... they also want more jail time for felons but won't fund the construction of new jails or allow a new prison to be built within the same 100 mile radius).

In truth, the one thing that stikes me about this entire debate is how economically ignorant your average American, even professionals, actually is. The fact that politicians and the media play to it for votes/ratings is in no way surprising. :no: When the average American's ignorance is this willfull, it hops on the train out of Ignoranceburg, going full steam for Stupidville.

[Haudegen]

What makes you think that there is no collusion among the oil/gas companies?

I think it´s amazing how simultaneously the prices of the different companies are developing.

And the companies that run the gas stations have been the same ever since. If there are no new contenders on the market why should the few that share the market want to push each other?

[Ser Clegane]

I thought that although the profits were at a record level as a total lump some, the profits as a % where lower than many other industries, they just seem so big because the oil companies are huge, therefore their profits would be expected to be a large figure.

i.e. Bill spends $1000 on his bakery and makes $2000 back so has 100% profits.
BP spends $100 billion on their little project which makes $108 billion so has 8% profits.

Just FYI - "return on sales" is a completely irrelavent number when you are comparing different industries, only a ratio that reflects the return on invested capital is really meaningful in such cases.

[Don Corleone]

The reason the prices are tracking is they are all experiencing the same upward price pressures. The cost of oil per barrel has gone up for *everyone*, not just Exxon/Mobil. Similarly, the refineries all were built at roughly the same time and therefore, are now coming offline at roughly the same rate (unless you think BP is somehow better at maintaining their refineries then say Shell). The additives and detergants mandated by the government all come from the same petro-chemical companies.

When all the prices for competing products are at approximately the same price, it is a sign of being a mature marketplace. In and of itself, it's not evidence of collusion. If somebody can stay in business charging a lot more or a lot less then their competitors for a roughly equivalent product, then there must be other factors at work that aren't being accounted for (consumer electronics & name-brand recognition would be a good example).

At ~8% OPBT, I would say oil companies and gas companies are running pretty lean and aren't gouging anyone. I'm in semiconductors, and we run at about 17% OPBT (operating profit before taxes) and nobody is calling for a congressional investegation to see if Texas Instruments, Analog Devices, Maxim Integrated Circuits and National Semiconductor are 'colluding' to keep the cost of Analog-to-Digital converters artificially high (in fact, I can assure you we're not).

Let's look at it this way. I go to Costco and buy Baby Ruth candy bars wholesale for $0.20 apiece. I then turn around and sell them in the breakroom of my office for $0.35. My profitability is 0.15/0.35 or 42.8% OPBT (I have no addtional expenses other than the candy itself)... not bad. Now, let's say Costco gets greedy and raises the price of my candy to $0.30 a bar. At the same time, due to ever increasing demand (people are telling me to go to Costco in the middle of the day even!!!) I decide to ratchet up my price not just to $0.45 but to $0.50. My profit is now $.020, and my profits have increased by 33%. But my profitability has dropped to 0.2/05 = 40%, a drop of 7%.

It is very possible (in fact likely!) to see your profits grow and your profitability drop. And that's just the case for the per-bar case.

Let's say I was originally selling 1000 bars (back when I was making 15 cents apiece). My gross profits were $150. Now, let's say when Costco raised my cost, I decided to maintain my margin exactly as it was, $0.15/bar. So now, my price has gone up to $0.45/bar. Oddly, demand spikes, and I'm now selling 1500 bars. I'm still only making $0.15/bar, but my profits have increased from $150 to $225! Again, I'm still only making $0.15/bar, I'm just selling a lot more bars. My profits have increased by 50%, due solely to increased volume!

Now, let's take the final step in our little economics lesson. You have a product, my bars, that are experiencing increasing demand, even in light of increased cost, even though the supplier of the bars, me, hasn't increased their profits on a per unit basis, and my profitability has therefore dropped. The government shows up and says "you know, we've gotten a lot of calls about your candy bar mafia. We're going to charge you an 'excessive profits" tax of $0.15/bar". Guess what, I don't make any money any more. Do you really think I'm going to keep running to Costco and buying everyone's candy bars, out of the goodness of my heart and to make the government rich? No, I'm going to quit. My competition across the street decides to stick it out, but he has to raise the cost on his candy bars from $0.45 to $0.60, because he's going to pass the tax back on to you, the consumer. He hasn't made one extra penny on any candy bar he's sold, but your price has gone up from $0.35 to $0.60, almost doubling, and the guy you hate that you're blaming for all of this hasn't done a single thing to increase the cost of your candy bar!!!

[Haudegen]

Thank you for your explanations. I´ll think about it a bit.

Those companies who run the gas stations might be reasonable businessmen but the development of the prices of raw oil and natural gas are still a mystery, I think.

[doc_bean]

Thank you for your explanations. I´ll think about it a bit.

Those companies who run the gas stations might be reasonable businessmen but the development of the prices of raw oil and natural gas are still a mystery, I think.


Demand has risen, supply has been about the same. It's a bit like ebay, if a lot of people want the same thing the price goes up.
Sure they could sell it cheaper, but why would they sell under the price ? In an ideal free market you sell what you got at the price people are willing to pay for it.

What's surprised me is how low prices have stayed (relatively) and how oil countries/companies have been so accommodating to our increased demand. I've said it before, they could be making a lot more money...

[Zain]

I didn't read all the posts, but I figured I would add this.

Back in the fifties a college professor figured out and drew out a "map" of a car that would run off of water. He turned it into the patent people, and Exxon and Chevron found out. Before the professor got a patent Exxon and Chevron teamed up and bought the idea from the professor. There's where the map was burned, literally.

-ZainDustin

Haudegen: Get your own Avatar! :2thumbsup:

[Haudegen]

Hmpf! I use mine since last october.

First come, first serve :laugh4:

[Banquo's Ghost]

If I may say so, that was an excellent and very well worded post Don.

:2thumbsup:

And I believe Lemur has the heart of it:


A conservative government would simply say: we have no control over global oil prices; consumers reap what they sow; companies should be left alone; and if your wallet is empty because of all that gas in your SUV, you've learned a useful lesson in self-government.


Pain in the wallet is a necessary pre-condition for market adjustment - and innovation.

[Ser Clegane]

While I am not amused when the oil companies miraculously decide on short-term price increases when public holidays are coming and people decide to travel, I cannot really blame them for reaping the benefits of being fully integrated during tome of high oil prices.
Currently we have times of very high raw material prices - this does not only effect oil but also e.g., steel, copper coal, etc.
Companies who take the risk of investing a lot a capital for the integartion into raw materials are now in a lucky situation as they are enjoying high selling prices while their costs are not changing too much.
Could oil companies be so generous and sell gas at a price that does not reflect the higher oil prices? They probably could, but of course that would mean that those refineries who are not also active in exploration would have to lower their prices as well and would go bust as they atill would have to pay the high feedstock prices.

Not nice if you are the end-consumer, but ultimately I think the pricing behaviour of oil companies is certainly less immoral than what some other industries do.


Pain in the wallet is a necessary pre-condition for market adjustment - and innovation.
Indeed - never has the motivation to develop efficient biofuels been as high as now - even the oil companies are heavily involved in this area.

[A.Saturnus]

Well if you are comparing my service to the country for a low wage, being deployed away from my family for a year and being honorably discharge after ten years of providing security for my country to some parasite that doesn't work, breeds little parasites, drinks 40's all day, does drugs, and blames everyone else for not being responsible, then I'm guilty as charged for "sucking off the tit" of the government. Of course in your world, someone that actually works doesn't deserve any consideration compared to worthless ####s that don't do #### while recieving a check.

Sorry for being off topic, but in your heart you're nothing but a hippy, Dave. You say that you were deployed away from your family for a year for a low wage to serve your country, but the truth is that you were deployed away from your family for a year for a low wage to keep South-Koreans from getting killed by commies. The American interests in there are minimal, all what is at stake are some Asians and a mediocre market. From a hardcore American isolationist perspective that's not worth the effort. A true isolationist would say that your humanitarian, "save the world", peace-keeping mission in some oversea country is nothing but a huge waste of American tax-payers' money.
But I think we can be glad that idealistic, peace-loving hippies like you are still around. ~;)

[Devastatin Dave]

But I think we can be glad that idealistic, peace-loving hippies like you are still around. ~;)
I'd die for those South Koreans, the greatest people on the face of the earth. The thought of my Korean Brothers and Sisters being harmed by that SOB up north puts me into a rage that none of you will ever see. That's all I have to say about that... hippy out.

[Strike For The South]

Well from an American perspective just telling us to go buy a bike and use public transportaion or even use cleaner energy isnt an option becuase 80% of America lives outside any viable public transport and there is no other viable source of energy. Its not like I go to fill up and choose between ethanol and petrol. There are 3 major players in this game. Big oil poloticans/special intrestr groups and the mideast. Now the first to seem hell bent on high gas prices but for different reasons. Big oil to use greenbacks as tp and polticans and special intrest groups who want us to get off our addiction however both of these groups are shortsighted big oil for not realzing there monoply wont last and the politicans for realizing breaking our addiction cant be done by making gas 10$ a gallon and offering no vialbe soulution. Saying this I belive gas will go down agian and stay there granted its no 89 cents like it was 10 years ago but we wont stay like this by june its back to 2.25:2thumbsup:

[Strike For The South]

Well from an American perspective just telling us to go buy a bike and use public transportaion or even use cleaner energy isnt an option becuase 80% of America lives outside any viable public transport and there is no other viable source of energy. Its not like I go to fill up and choose between ethanol and petrol. There are 3 major players in this game. Big oil poloticans/special intrestr groups and the mideast. Now the first to seem hell bent on high gas prices but for different reasons. Big oil to use greenbacks as tp and polticans and special intrest groups who want us to get off our addiction however both of these groups are shortsighted big oil for not realzing there monoply wont last and the politicans for realizing breaking our addiction cant be done by making gas 10$ a gallon and offering no vialbe soulution. Saying this I belive gas will go down agian and stay there granted its no 89 cents like it was 10 years ago but we wont stay like this by june its back to 2.25:2thumbsup:

[Husar]

1. I am a student.
2. I don´t have any car.
3. I don´t have a driver´s license.
4. I ca use public transport in an area of about 50km around Essen for IIRC 80€ per Semester....
5. I want yout to guess now who saves a lot of money.:eyebrows:

[KukriKhan]

1. I am a student.
2. I don´t have any car.
3. I don´t have a driver´s license.
4. I ca use public transport in an area of about 50km around Essen for IIRC 80€ per Semester....
5. I want yout to guess now who saves a lot of money.:eyebrows:

German public transportation is a model of coverage and efficiency. I lived there in '87 & '88, got a driver's license, but never used it. Once I learned how to read the bus and train schedules, my travel wasn't hampered at all.

I tried the same no-car strategy when I returned to the US, and lasted only 3 months before I had to relent and buy an auto. Our cities and towns are set up on the premise that everyone will have a car. Trying to live without one is possible, but very limiting.

[Lemur]

Here's a good breakdown of who's consuming oil, as of 2004. (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/topworldtables3_4.html) Please note how low China and India score on the table. For those who don't like links:


United States -- 20.7 million barrels of oil per day
China -- 6.5 million barrels of oil per day
Japan -- 5.4 million barrels of oil per day
Germany -- 2.6 million barrels of oil per day
Russia -- 2.6 million barrels of oil per day
India -- 2.3 million barrels of oil per day

I'm trying to dig up some numbers on how the SUV explosion has impacted our national gas habit, but the statistics are hard to find. All I've been able to lay hands on so far is an economist claiming that 9.3 million of those barrels per day are consumed by passenger vehicles.

If anybody can find a reasonable analysis of how our fuel consumption has been impacted by the pleistocene tendencies of our "light truck" category, please post.

[_Martyr_]

Those are some pretty amazing numbers there Lemur. I honestly didnt realise the US used SOOO much compared with the rest, combined.:dizzy2:

I would suggest that one reason that the big oil companies arent squeezing us any harder is that as has been suggested, if we feel the pinch too hard we will be much quicker in switching over to alternatives. This way, they are still milking us but not to the extent that we are likely to change our habbits and infrastructure in the immediate future.

[Major Robert Dump]

I am certainly no fan of oil comapnies or corporations in general, but tje ignorance of these inquiries and the public outcry is pretty typical, uninformed, blame the old standby crap.

Does anyone care to know why Exxon had "record profits?" Anyone?

Okay, I'll tell you. Because they sold a bunch of oil rigs they had paid off. Thats straight profit, otherwise they would have made roughly the saem as all the other domestic oil companies.

Again, I'm no fan of corporations, but its not like we are getting excessively hosed on the price and thats whats making hte "record profit" for Exxon, its the fact that Exxon sold its assets and is under no obligation to give the public price relief becuaxse of a wise sell. In fact, if Exxon did offer cheaper oil because they could afford to, the other companies would likely sue for unfair pricing on the part of Exxon.

And does anyone care to wager why gas is so expensive? We've already heard the SUV argument, which is half the truth. Indeed, the gas mileage of vehgicles these days is shocking, and my sad liberal ass has nothing but contempt for [***] (edited for language by Ser Clegane)who drive winnebego size trucks and push the price up for everyone else.

But another reason for the price increase is geopolitics and world trade. I won't bore any of you with stories of China drilling in the gulf under much less restricitions than the US, nor will I bother with putting India and Cuba in perspective because you can do that yourself. Theres reasons prices are going up that dont have to do with American demand.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Niall Ferguson's take on this stuff:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/04/30/do3003.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/04/30/ixop.html

[Crazed Rabbit]

I recall reading that the oil companies make $0.09 of profit per gallon. The gov't in the US (state & federal) taxes about $0.40 per gallon. So who's really making more money per gallon?

Crazed Rabbit

[Ser Clegane]

I recall reading that the oil companies make $0.09 of profit per gallon.

Is that just for the retail business of the oil companies based on the market prices for raw materials they pay internally, or is that the profit that is made by an integrated oil company considering all steps from exploration and refinement to retail?

[Xiahou]

While I am not amused when the oil companies miraculously decide on short-term price increases when public holidays are coming and people decide to travel, I cannot really blame them for reaping the benefits of being fully integrated during tome of high oil prices.That's a simple market function- nothing insiduous. When travel increases, gasoline demand increases. The law of supply and demand dictates that prices must go up. :wink:



Here's a good breakdown of who's consuming oil, as of 2004. Please note how low China and India score on the table. For those who don't like links:

United States -- 20.7 million barrels of oil per day
China -- 6.5 million barrels of oil per day
Japan -- 5.4 million barrels of oil per day
Germany -- 2.6 million barrels of oil per day
Russia -- 2.6 million barrels of oil per day
India -- 2.3 million barrels of oil per day

I'm trying to dig up some numbers on how the SUV explosion has impacted our national gas habit, but the statistics are hard to find. All I've been able to lay hands on so far is an economist claiming that 9.3 million of those barrels per day are consumed by passenger vehicles.

If anybody can find a reasonable analysis of how our fuel consumption has been impacted by the pleistocene tendencies of our "light truck" category, please post.Interesting, but do you have anything more recent? I would bet China's and India's numbers have increased significantly since 2004.

[Ser Clegane]

That's a simple market function- nothing insiduous. When travel increases, gasoline demand increases. The law of supply and demand dictates that prices must go up. :wink:
I would have some more faith that this is the case if the oil companies actually gave increased demand as a reason - however, they usually claim that
a) the prices actually do not rise during holidays (yeah ... sure)
b) it is coincidence



Interesting, but do you have anything more recent? I would bet China's and India's numbers have increased significantly since 2004.

In this IEA report (link to pdf-file) (http://omrpublic.iea.org/currentissues/full.pdf) you can find some numbers for 2005 and forecasts for 2006 (on p. 48):
USA: 20.77 (2005)/21.02 (2006)
Europe (OECD + non-OECD): 16.33/16.36
China: 6.59/6.95
India: 2.59/2.64
Japan: 5.41/5.43

[Lemur]

I believe that the total margin for most oil companies is around 10%. If I'm selling Jello for $1, I make a ten cent profit at ten percent. If the price shoots up to $3, I make thirty cents. I believe that is why oil company profits coincide with price spikes. No conspiracy at work, just the normal margin.

[yesdachi]

Here's a good breakdown of who's consuming oil, as of 2004. (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/topworldtables3_4.html) Please note how low China and India score on the table. For those who don't like links:


United States -- 20.7 million barrels of oil per day
China -- 6.5 million barrels of oil per day
Japan -- 5.4 million barrels of oil per day
Germany -- 2.6 million barrels of oil per day
Russia -- 2.6 million barrels of oil per day
India -- 2.3 million barrels of oil per day

I'm trying to dig up some numbers on how the SUV explosion has impacted our national gas habit, but the statistics are hard to find. All I've been able to lay hands on so far is an economist claiming that 9.3 million of those barrels per day are consumed by passenger vehicles.

If anybody can find a reasonable analysis of how our fuel consumption has been impacted by the pleistocene tendencies of our "light truck" category, please post.
I read something a few days ago that more than half of the US’s oil usage is from industry not automobiles (even the SUV’s). Consider the size of the US compared to some other countries and consider the industries in the US compared to other countries. The amount/percentage of oil used is huge but not that surprising.

[_Martyr_]

..huh? Consider the size of the US to lets see... China, Russia, EU... What exatly do you mean? The EU has comparible industry, much bigger population, and is geographically similar. Russia is geographically much larger, has a not too small population and a reasonable level of industrialisation. China has a MUCH bigger population, a similar geographic size, and a large and booming industrial sector.

Even if only half of your oil consumption is from cars, it on its own is still the largest in the world, by almost DOUBLE the next contender, who incidentally has about four times your population. :help:

You guys just need to start buying reasonable cars.

[Redleg]

You guys just need to start buying reasonable cars.

Or the rest of the world needs to walk, so that the United States can have all the oil....... :laugh4:

[yesdachi]

..huh? Consider the size of the US to lets see... China, Russia, EU... What exatly do you mean? The EU has comparible industry, much bigger population, and is geographically similar. Russia is geographically much larger, has a not too small population and a reasonable level of industrialisation. China has a MUCH bigger population, a similar geographic size, and a large and booming industrial sector.

Even if only half of your oil consumption is from cars, it on its own is still the largest in the world, by almost DOUBLE the next contender, who incidentally has about four times your population. :help:
You’re not getting what I am saying, perhaps because I didn’t say it well (wouldn’t be the first time). But basically what I am trying to say is that the US is large in size, some 3.7 million sq miles I think with only about 6% on average being developed, and if you consider that each state is basically the equivalent to another country in size and commerce then the logistics, just between our states makes up for a large percentage of our oil consumption (so do SUV driving soccer moms ~D).

But it’s the commerce/industry/business or whatever you want to call it that makes the difference in the US. The GNP of the US is more than 30% of the entire worlds GNP and that takes a lot of oil. I’m not trying to downplay the fact that we use/waste a lot of oil on huge cars and SUV’s and the fact that we are spread out across the country sometimes dozens of miles from our jobs, but as the world’s leader in goods and services we require a lot of oil to keep at the level of production we are at, for better or worse the US is #1 in business and right now business requires oil.

I do think we should be using more solar, wind and bio energy sources but we aren’t ready yet and until we are Ding-Ding fill er up!



You guys just need to start buying reasonable cars.
Or what would be nice is if we had a fuel source that wouldn’t force us to compromise our desire for comfort and safety for economy.

[Xiahou]

Here's something to keep in mind next time you start complaining about gas prices...House Votes to Keep Offshore Drilling Ban (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060519/ap_on_go_co/congress_energy)

The House rejected an attempt late Thursday to end a quarter-century ban on oil and natural gas drilling in 85 percent of the country's coastal waters despite arguments that the new supplies are needed to lower energy costs.Meanwhile, Mexico is happily drilling away in virtually the same oil fields and will be more than happy to sell it to us for a tidy sum. :wall:

[PanzerJaeger]

Quoted profanities removed by Ser Clegane

I drive a relatively small SUV that gets 9mpg. I dont need it, but I enjoy it and Im willing to pay th 100$ every time it runs out. Thats one of the benefits of living in America.

I have nothing but contempt for the [***] who drive around in their [***]little imports and bitch about SUVs because they are jealous they cannot afford them, when the real culprits for the gas prices are far and away from SUV owners. No one is asking you to pay for some else's gas.

Edited for language by Ser Clegane

[Ser Clegane]

Please keep this civil, guys.

If you note an offensive post, the acceptable reaction is not to quote it and violate forum rules in return.

Any further violations will be treated "adequately"

[Byzantine Mercenary]

I drive a relatively small SUV that gets 9mpg. I dont need it, but I enjoy it and Im willing to pay th 100$ every time it runs out. Thats one of the benefits of living in America.

I have nothing but contempt for the [***] who drive around in their [***]little imports and bitch about SUVs because they are jealous they cannot afford them, when the real culprits for the gas prices are far and away from SUV owners. No one is asking you to pay for some else's gas.

Edited for language by Ser Clegane
you are using up oil that will not be replaced, unessisaryly thats the problem, i don't realy get what the amazing perks of an SUV are anyway, flipping over when cornering?

its cool though, you sowed the wind...

[Strike For The South]

9 mpg?
My Dads F-350 diesel gets 16 and mine (hopefully) gets 18. These are pretty big pickem up trucks. What do you drive?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ya, 9mpg is real low. My dad's full size van (as in not a wimpy minvan, but something you can transport a motorcycle inside of) gets 12 or so mpg.

Crazed Rabbit