Cantabrian circle

[KrooK]

When I hear people calling "it's undefeated, let's ban them", I think they simply don' like new things.
Cantabrian circle is something great - but only in good players hands. You have to know how to use circle - of course you can just press f and put on objective, but trust me guys - you will be massacred.
On the other hand circle help us ballance game. In my opinion it's ridiculus when axe nation got missiles advantage over steppe nation.Figthing against opponent who use circle is very simple- if you hate circle and don't want combination of light cav and long range archers - BUY SASSANIDS CLIBINARII.
This unit is ha murder - no horse archer unit can hold it (of course if well used). :2thumbsup:

[BHCWarman88]

I very Much Agree Krook. I use my 2 units of Sassdian Clibs in Melee though along with my Cats and Eles,very good :-) :-)


I can kill Cants Easily, I get some touble from them sometimes,but 99.8% of the time,I can kill them easliy..

[x-dANGEr]

Well.. I'm from those guys who first laughed at the community hearing the rule 'No CC'. But, the whole community uses it, so I follow the flood; even though it makes for some boring and really unbalanced battles. One of the battles I enjoyed much lately, was the 2 on 2 with Monarch, kinda exciting with CC allowed and max 4 HA (Basicly, the rules I'd give in a game I host), and it made for a balanced gameplay with Huns being a force, not too good or bad (Same goes for lovely Goths, Sass and Steppes). I remember back in RTW, a year and a couple of months ago, people used to 'hate' playing us, because we took Parthia, 6 catas 4 HA and a couple of archers.. And so rules started their birth and journey of life ;)

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I don't play multiplayer, but in my campaigns, I've never really learned how to use the Cantabrian circle.:oops:

[Reenk Roink]

We had a discussion about this in the RTK clan forums (sort of, it kinda evolved from another discussion)...

Essentially, it was between Cantabrian Circle/Horse Archer spamming being a genuine tactic or a cheap exploitation of the game mechanics.

Of course, I abide by certain clan rules at RTK which eliminate the possibility of spamming (RTK likes to have its Pages develop into skilled Knights who play a well-rounded, cerebral game instead of relying on army selection).

But I have no problem in non-clan 1v1's with allowing the other player to play without rules at all (sometimes I do say no art and maybe 6 max) while I still play with the clan rules.

I personally do not think that any tactic is unbeatable... Every one of them has weaknesses/flaws to be exploited...

As for a Hunnic (or related faction) Horse Archer spam, if I suspect one, I simply take West Rome. The Sarmatian Auxilla are very strong cavalry that are also fast moving; perfect for chasing around those pesky Horse Archers. Put some shield upgrades on them, and arrows will usually just bounce right off. This will waste ammo, as well as tiring the horse archers of the enemy. Also, let those Horse Archers go ahead and shoot your heavily armored infantry. How much damage can be done before the Horse Archers become exhausted and arrowless?

Alternatively you could bust out t3h BerBer furY... :2thumbsup:

Every army build is beatable. I remember in RTW 1.2, there was an opponent of mine who used a devious build of 10 Desert Cavalry and 10 Egyptian Chariots, which absolutely laid waste to my Roman army. Then I chose a Carthaginian army, with 6 heavily upgraded Sacred Band Infantry, along with a mix of Poeni Infantry, Slingers and Sacred Band Cavalry. I used the Cavalry to lure the enemy army into slinger range, after which he split up on both flanks. I used my core of the Sacred Band Infantry to hold and rout the chariots, while the slingers and cavalry were sacrificial lambs to buy me time against the Desert Cavalry. The Poeni Infantry were good flank protectors, and by the time his Desert Cavalry broke through, the chariots were all dead or routed and mopping up was easy...

In the third game, the good ol' Spartan/Armored Hoplite hexagon worked wonders and he didn't want to play anymore...:tongue3:

[Puzz3D]

In the third game, the good ol' Spartan/Armored Hoplite hexagon worked wonders and he didn't want to play anymore...
That won't work against someone who is good with the horse archers. They'll just shoot your expensive infantry in the back.

[x-dANGEr]

Yes Puzz3D, but he means againts 10 Desert cav and 10 chariots.. Of course, except if he means 10 archer chariots.. (But even then, with his Greek Cav, he can wait till the archer chariots get tired, and then charge/pursue them with Greek Cav, of course your cav will lose, but will put some nice casualties)

[Puzz3D]

Yes Puzz3D, but he means againts 10 Desert cav and 10 chariots..
Yes OK. So, that would work. Back on topic, the Cantabrian circle does seem rather black and white. I remember using a foot archer to shoot at a Cantabrian circle and I didn't get any kills using all my arrows. On top of that the horse archer is getting battlefield upgrades to it's melee weapon for the kills it gets, and those kills were considerable being my entire foot archer as I recall.

In BI, there is a Hunic horse archer which is very strong in melee and can beat light cav upgraded to equal cost. So, you aren't likely to chase these Hunic cav archers off with light cav. If you send heavier cav, it can't run fast enough to ever catch the horse archers. If you try to shoot it, it goes into Cantabrian circle. So, they don't seem to have a counterunit.

Balance isn't something you can determine by having player A play player B if the players aren't equally matched. Also, by leaving in battlefield upgrades, it guarantees that the game can't be balanced. Battlefield upgrades were removed from MTW/VI multiplayer because of their unbalancing effect, and more unit types and more combat parameters means more difficulty balancing the game.

[KrooK]

Dear Xdanger- i think you shouldn't post if you really dont know game mechanic. Sacred Band units (for example 6 ) , if well deployed, is untouched by horse archers. I mean sb without any upgrades.
Truth is that is players are smart, circle is not a problem. But if someone if camper who is staying behind heavy inf and waiting on opponent - this playes always loose. And it's good :) game shouldn't prefer campers.

[Reenk Roink]

In BI, there is a Hunic horse archer which is very strong in melee and can beat light cav upgraded to equal cost. So, you aren't likely to chase these Hunic cav archers off with light cav. If you send heavier cav, it can't run fast enough to ever catch the horse archers. If you try to shoot it, it goes into Cantabrian circle. So, they don't seem to have a counterunit.

There are some cavalry that will do the trick; Sarmatian Auxilia are fast moving and strong, Burgundian Lancers as well.

Anyway, whenever I suspect my opponent to field a Hunnic Rush army, here is my favorite counter. While I haven't used it much, it has worked in the few practical applications and is solid in theory...

https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2655/6rhys11hi.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

This is wonderful against an army comprised of horse archers and heavy cavalry. Even when Hunnic Elite Warriors are fielded with Hunnic Heavy Cavalry, Hun Horde Chosen Warriors, Hun Lancers, or other high-tier cavalry, it does the job. The heavily armored Auxilia Palatina are the core of your army, and with armor upgrades, they will withhold even the best of horse archer fire from the back. Your opponent will essentially not be able to kill enough. Also, the Sarmatian Auxilia, which are already great with there high attack and defense, solid charge, and fast speed are given armor upgrades to withstand archer fire themselves, and will be used to chase and weaken the enemy army. The 4 archers, fully upgraded, are used as a fodder. They have full armor upgrades to last longer, and full weapon upgrades to be able to at least take out some of the cavalry (I recommend ignoring the horse archers and going for his melee cavalry which will not have the benefit of the Cantabrian Circle). However, there most important function is to draw fire from the enemy horse archers and soak up valuable arrows that could otherwise be used against your cavalry or infantry.

Essentially, this army will exhaust both the stamina and the ammunition of the horse archers, after which you will have your enemy where you want it.

I hope this has helped. :bow:


Dear Xdanger- i think you shouldn't post if you really dont know game mechanic. Sacred Band units (for example 6 ) , if well deployed, is untouched by horse archers. I mean sb without any upgrades.
Truth is that is players are smart, circle is not a problem. But if someone if camper who is staying behind heavy inf and waiting on opponent - this playes always loose. And it's good :) game shouldn't prefer campers.

Actually, even against hoplites with strong defense, archers can do a number if they surround the enemy and have each unit attack the backs of the defensive formation. The true question is whether they will be able to deal enough damage...

[x-dANGEr]

Dear Xdanger- i think you shouldn't post if you really dont know game mechanic. Sacred Band units (for example 6 ) , if well deployed, is untouched by horse archers. I mean sb without any upgrades.
Truth is that is players are smart, circle is not a problem. But if someone if camper who is staying behind heavy inf and waiting on opponent - this playes always loose. And it's good :) game shouldn't prefer campers.
I will give you Scythia as an example. Last time I used Scythia, it was VS Mel (A Sith), he had around 10 phalanx, with 4 of them being peoni, and 4 cav, along with 6 Slingers. I will skip the details. After I had depleted all my arrows on him, he was still able to make a box. While I had a couple of Madians, 4 Chosen Archer Warbands and my 4 HA. It was to simple to beat his box, I just ran all my archers at one side of the box (Ran = Clicked behind them, otherwise they will stay away of the Sacred band unit taking spear damage, while when they are close to them, the Sacred band will have to switch to the secondary weapon, and if it doesn't have it, it will suffer a disadventage VS my 4 archer units). Now, after the fight between the 4 archers and the sacred band became too close, I charged my Madians in, and in a simple matter of seconds, the Sacred Bands routed..


Back on topic, the Cantabrian circle does seem rather black and white. I remember using a foot archer to shoot at a Cantabrian circle and I didn't get any kills using all my arrows. On top of that the horse archer is getting battlefield upgrades to it's melee weapon for the kills it gets, and those kills were considerable being my entire foot archer as I recall.

Their are many ways to counter them, Slingers being one of those. To be more precise, Baleric Slingers. (All you need to do is to get them our of Cantarbarian Circle for seconds, and then retreat your cav unit..).

Of course, in BI I think HA is too much overpowered. Simply, because elite HA, has more ammo than elite units in RTW, a very good range, very good stamina and 'fast moving' attributes. Which is just too much for an elite unit, that is able to do quite fair in melee. In R: TW, I remember that only Scythia Horse Archers (Along with Noble Women) had the attribute Fast Moving, while the Noble Horse Archers, hadn't that attribute, but had composinated it with a longer range and being able to fight an equite unit (Even though, it may suffer enough casualties making it useless sometimes).

[Puzz3D]

There are some cavalry that will do the trick; Sarmatian Auxilia are fast moving and strong, Burgundian Lancers as well.

Anyway, whenever I suspect my opponent to field a Hunnic Rush army, here is my favorite counter. While I haven't used it much, it has worked in the few practical applications and is solid in theory...

https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2655/6rhys11hi.jpg (https://imageshack.us)


This is wonderful against an army comprised of horse archers and heavy cavalry. Even when Hunnic Elite Warriors are fielded with Hunnic Heavy Cavalry, Hun Horde Chosen Warriors, Hun Lancers, or other high-tier cavalry, it does the job. The heavily armored Auxilia Palatina are the core of your army, and with armor upgrades, they will withhold even the best of horse archer fire from the back. Your opponent will essentially not be able to kill enough. Also, the Sarmatian Auxilia, which are already great with there high attack and defense, solid charge, and fast speed are given armor upgrades to withstand archer fire themselves, and will be used to chase and weaken the enemy army. The 4 archers, fully upgraded, are used as a fodder. They have full armor upgrades to last longer, and full weapon upgrades to be able to at least take out some of the cavalry (I recommend ignoring the horse archers and going for his melee cavalry which will not have the benefit of the Cantabrian Circle). However, there most important function is to draw fire from the enemy horse archers and soak up valuable arrows that could otherwise be used against your cavalry or infantry.

Essentially, this army will exhaust both the stamina and the ammunition of the horse archers, after which you will have your enemy where you want it.

I hope this has helped.
You've only taken 16 units in that army. Certainly, the enemy can make his units stronger as well if he takes 16, although, that won't make his arrows better and may actually give him less arrows. If the armor of your army is in fact good enough to make arrows ineffective, then it is a counter to horse archer armies. It has enough cav that you don't end up completely passive. As you say, it depends upon reducing the losses to arrows by an amount that leaves you with enough melee capacity to defeat the enemy in melee.

The players I play don't fall for that foor archer fodder idea. They will weaken the foot archers, and then maneuver to shoot my cavalry. Those upgraded Sarmatian Auxilia had better be practically impervious to the hail of arrows they are going to encounter if they go out to drive off the enemy's Cantaberian circle archers. If your strategy with this army depends upon the enemy wasting all their arrows on fodder units, it's not going to work against most experienced players.

I could see x-dANGEr's idea of forcing the archers out of Cantabrian circle with light cav and then shooting the enemy horse archers with long range units working, but that light cav might come under fire from enemy archers and be badly damaged. The light cav also has to be strong enough to be a threat to to the Cantabrian cav in melee, so I wonder if it's a cost effective tactic.

[x-dANGEr]

I could see x-dANGEr's idea of forcing the archers out of Cantabrian circle with light cav and then shooting the enemy horse archers with long range units working, but that light cav might come under fire from enemy archers and be badly damaged. The light cav also has to be strong enough to be a threat to to the Cantabrian cav in melee, so I wonder if it's a cost effective tactic.
2 light cav (800 cost) bringing down 4 elite HA (4000 cost), is a very great deal in my opinion. And no, the light cav doesn't need to pose a threat to do the job, it only needs some morale (6 will be fine). The enemy HA will lose a lot of men in both cases, if they retreat they will have to come again and receive another first-volley from your archers/slingers, or fight and have losses from the actual melee battle and your arrows/stones.

[NihilisticCow]

Yes, disrupting the canta is generally how you deal with ha's, but light cav rarely get the chance to do this more than a couple of times as people like shooting them if they're skirmishing and spending too much money on them relies on people taking a lot of horse archers, which is an issue if people don't. Herdsmen with armour upgrades seem to fair the best in my experience with their horde formation and large unit size. Versus the well armoured ha's you don't really do enough damage in the few volleys you get to render the ha's ineffective. This though is talking about larger numbers of horse archers. I've always been an advocate of either a low max on horse archers allowing cantabrian circle or banning canta with no ha max (so brought solely under an archer max, as otherwise spam does tend to rule). Besides 4 elite horse archers would instantly rout 2 light cav in melee and take minimal losses in the process (almost none from the cav, mainly from archers).

As for Dollar's anti-Hun build, I pretty much agree with Puzz3d. Playing against that, I would mainly be shooting the cavalry - the 1 armour upgrade won't make much of a difference when being shot in the back and pursuing the horse archers would just lose the cavalry. Auxila Palatina rout just like everything else when flanked sufficiently strongly (i.e. a few cav units) and they will take significant casualties to horse archers behind them (as there would be horse archers all around them).

[x-dANGEr]

@Cow: Since they will insta rout, they will be back with you soon!

Anyway, I think the aproppiate rules are:

1v1:

Max 4 HA.
Max 6 missile (Footmen).
Max 8 cav (Melee).
Max 6.
Max 2 chariots/1 ele.
Art allowed.

2 v 2:

Max 6 HA/team.
Max 6 missile (Footmen).
Max 8 cav (Melee).
Max 6.
Max 2 chariots/1 ele/team.
Art allowed.

3 v 3:

Max 8 HA/team.
Max 6 missile (Footmen).
Max 8 cav (Melee).
Max 6.
Max 3 chariots/2 ele/team.
Art allowed.

4 v 4:

Max 10 HA/team.
Max 6 missile (Footmen).
Max 8 cav (Melee).
Max 6.
Max 3 chariots/2 ele/team.
Art allowed.

Zerkers max is the same as HA's.

[Puzz3D]

Anyway, I think the aproppiate rules are:
Are you successful in getting games with these complex rules? And, what is the denari level and unit size?

[Reenk Roink]

https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2655/6rhys11hi.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

You've only taken 16 units in that army. Certainly, the enemy can make his units stronger as well if he takes 16, although, that won't make his arrows better and may actually give him less arrows. If the armor of your army is in fact good enough to make arrows ineffective, then it is a counter to horse archer armies. It has enough cav that you don't end up completely passive. As you say, it depends upon reducing the losses to arrows by an amount that leaves you with enough melee capacity to defeat the enemy in melee.

The players I play don't fall for that foor archer fodder idea. They will weaken the foot archers, and then maneuver to shoot my cavalry. Those upgraded Sarmatian Auxilia had better be practically impervious to the hail of arrows they are going to encounter if they go out to drive off the enemy's Cantaberian circle archers. If your strategy with this army depends upon the enemy wasting all their arrows on fodder units, it's not going to work against most experienced players.

The thing is, I only need 16 units for this army. Certainly, high tier Hun units are expensive, more so than any unit in my army. It is certainly implausible that an opponent can take enough high tier units in a 12500 denarii game to be able to overwhelm the armor of my army.

Once again, the strategy of this army is to render horse archers useless, through three methods:

1) forcing an engagement and killing them with the fast moving cavalry
2) exhaustion of stamina and arrows
3) the presence of spearmen

Also, I assure you, a 'skilled' player seeing his horse archers starting to drop, will focus on the archers shooting them. There is a reason why the 'fodder' units are 4 highly upgraded archer units rather than pesants or the like. ~;)


As for Dollar's anti-Hun build, I pretty much agree with Puzz3d. Playing against that, I would mainly be shooting the cavalry - the 1 armour upgrade won't make much of a difference when being shot in the back and pursuing the horse archers would just lose the cavalry. Auxila Palatina rout just like everything else when flanked sufficiently strongly (i.e. a few cav units) and they will take significant casualties to horse archers behind them (as there would be horse archers all around them).

Perhaps we should try it Cow? ~;)

I assure you, I do not plan to just sit and let you fire at my Sarmatian Auxilia, I plan to challenge you with them, and yes, I do use the Auxilia Palatina actively in this tactic; they do not remain sedentary in a box surrounded by horse archers. ~;) That is a misconception drawn from my post.

Points about Auxilia Palatina routing when flanked and Sarmatian Auxilia being knocked of by archer fire are obvious and irrelevant. After all, the game is not determined by the army selection, but rather how you play it. This army build simply gives you the tools necessary to defeat a horse archer army.

If any doubts about the practical application of this tactic remain, please come and join me in a friendly game. My game name is 'RTK9Pyrrhos' although you may also see me in the lobby as 'MrDuckyBoy' when there are no RTK around. My Xfire is 'happynesscandies' :nice:.

EDIT: Well, I was certainly taught a lesson just now...

https://img93.imageshack.us/img93/4553/cowdefeat0sq.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

In my defense, I would like to point out that:

1) I was facing Cow, certainly one of the best players...

2) Cow knew my army beforehand...

3) I spent more time typing than actually playing... :tongue3:

My plan of engagement did not work. Cow had everything brilliantly setup. He had spread the field, skirmished beautifully (I thought it was the computer at first), used his horse archers efficiently and methodically, and had a game plan.

At the beginning, I had some success, as I was able to harass and chase down Cow's first wave of horse archers (they were the weaker ones). My archers did some damage, but not as much as I had first thought, and they were soon taken out. My Sarmatian Auxilia units were split into two groups, and I had lost much of one group while somewhat taking out one side of his horse archers. Also, the way Cow had setup made it impossible for my Auxilia Palatina to engage. I had to run for the edge (big mistake, I should have went corner). Here Cow was able to bore me by taking so long, and kill my remaining group of cavalry, as he unleashed the second wave of horse archers (the elite group). Then he proceeded to pick at my Auxilia Palatina, by making me alternate where they were facing. I did get rid of all his ammo, but at too great a loss. A final charge with everything was initially fended off, but then collapsed.

However, do not think I am finished Cow. I have formulated a new game plan while seeing the weakness of my first. Also, I do have t3h BerBer furY. :2thumbsup:

Tommorow I will post it (not t3h BerBer furY which cannot be seen by anyone else), and we shall play again you sublime (but not quite divine) bovine.

[x-dANGEr]

Are you successful in getting games with these complex rules? And, what is the denari level and unit size?
Normal unit size. Well actually, these rules are less-complex than the already used ones (TWPL), which by the way 'greatly' downgrade Roxo/mirror (No HA, max 6 missile), Slavs/mirror (No HA, max 6 missile), Huns (No HA), Sass (No eles and no HA) and barbs (No zerkers..).

You may say that TWPL rules do allow HA, but with no CC and with a 6 max missiles..

@Reenk Roink: What were you expecting? A Hun army with no limit on HA is a.. ermm..

[Reenk Roink]

Well, I just built a revamped anti-Hun setup; and then I built another one with a slightly different theory behind it. They both take into account what the damnable yet lovable Cow did to the previous one. I will post it here, but after that knave and I duel once again...:tongue3:

If both of these fail (probably won't happen), I do have one last trick up my sleeve to defeat a horse archer spam utilizing cantabrian circle, but it is one that I am full of waryness to unleash (I have only busted out a watered-down, altered version of this once before...).

[x-dANGEr]

You can just pick up 20 Sass clibs.. (Or as many as you can get).

[NihilisticCow]

There's a variety of spam builds that beats ha spam (I "only" took 12 against Dollar, keeping to max 6 of a unit of course - but if he hadn't have edge camped, I doubt there would have been anywhere near as many losses as I took when charging at the end, single figure losses were quite possible). I'm not really sure whether it's worthwhile trying to defeat it though, as it's not really a remotely fair setup for most factions and for basically this reason it is prevented by pretty much every rule set in common use. Yes spam builds will beat it, but spam builds are defeated by other spam builds, so you don't really get anywhere in the end.

I'm still looking at the effect of CWB rules as for horse archer usage (as the horse archers only come into the archer max of 6 per player + 1 steppe horde horse archer if the faction has it with cantabrian circle still banned). In theory it makes horse archers much more useful, as you can do things like doubling on a sides archers in team games for short periods of time as well as general harassing with sufficient numbers to pose a threat that must be countered instead of ignored. Of course if you don't mind risking RSI, you can keep the horse archers moving in different directions thereby throwing off the foot archer targetting and beat foot archers head on.

Oh BTW Dollar, "skirmished beautifully (I thought it was the computer at first)".... not sure whether to be insulted that you compared my skirmishing to the AI's... :P

[Reenk Roink]

Don't you wimp out now Cow!

I have three options with which to defeat the Hun spam...

Hurry up from your trip (have fun and happyness first :nice:) so we can play again.

And actually, the edge camping got me nowhere until the final charge. I had killed 13% of your army in the initial stages of the game (with my Sarmatian Auxilia) and when all your arrows were exhausted, I still had killed 13% of your army...

As for the skirmishing, I was very impressed, I though you had them in skirmish mode (the AI is pretty good about running away in skirmish mode ~;)).

[Orda Khan]

Surely all this talk about rules and spam tells us only one thing.....RTW is totally unbalanced

......Orda

[x-dANGEr]

And how in your mighty opinion do you think that HA can be balanced.. For god's sake, I hate it when people keep complaining without giving sollutions for the current 'imbalance'. Rules must 'always' be their with a so varied unit roster, and so to balance the factions, I think their should be a way that the host decides a max for each unit/type in the battle.

Now really, I wouldn't like a unit to be able to just kill my HA..

[Orda Khan]

And how in your mighty opinion do you think that HA can be balanced..
First off is there any need for the tone of your reply? Secondly, I never claimed to be mighty. As for my opinions, you will notice that a lot of threads and replies are made up of opinions. Anyway, since you ask how HA can be balanced, there are many factors that could be looked at. Maybe making it harder to kill and rout a balanced army with an all HA army is one step. In MTW I think this would have been extremely hard if not impossible because arrows were less effective. Even the very best steppe armies required something more than simply HA. RTW added some realism with the CC feature, no more static HA but their arrows are too effective and they lose too few men to enemy fire, you should expect more casualties to your HA than the present situation.

For god's sake, I hate it when people keep complaining without giving sollutions for the current 'imbalance'. Rules must 'always' be their with a so varied unit roster, and so to balance the factions, I think their should be a way that the host decides a max for each unit/type in the battle.
I disagree, there should be no reason to implement rules at all. Unit rosters in MTW were not small. I have given my opinions in countless threads on how to achieve a balanced game requiring no rules. To summarise, I will mention zero upgrades and cost level that the stats are built around. So, let us imagine that level to be 10,000, you buy your units to construct your army, your choice will still be varied but none of the imbalances brought about by upgrades will be present. You should try the MTW/VI Community Mod, Dux Mod or STW/VI Mod, all three employ this system and it works.

Now really, I wouldn't like a unit to be able to just kill my HA..
Me neither but I should not be able to defeat an army with just HA either

........Orda

[Reenk Roink]

Two things guys:

1) ~:grouphug:

2) Despite its problems, I still like R:TW...:nice:

[x-dANGEr]

First off is there any need for the tone of your reply? Secondly, I never claimed to be mighty. As for my opinions, you will notice that a lot of threads and replies are made up of opinions. Anyway, since you ask how HA can be balanced, there are many factors that could be looked at. Maybe making it harder to kill and rout a balanced army with an all HA army is one step. In MTW I think this would have been extremely hard if not impossible because arrows were less effective. Even the very best steppe armies required something more than simply HA. RTW added some realism with the CC feature, no more static HA but their arrows are too effective and they lose too few men to enemy fire, you should expect more casualties to your HA than the present situation.

I disagree, there should be no reason to implement rules at all. Unit rosters in MTW were not small. I have given my opinions in countless threads on how to achieve a balanced game requiring no rules. To summarise, I will mention zero upgrades and cost level that the stats are built around. So, let us imagine that level to be 10,000, you buy your units to construct your army, your choice will still be varied but none of the imbalances brought about by upgrades will be present. You should try the MTW/VI Community Mod, Dux Mod or STW/VI Mod, all three employ this system and it works.

Me neither but I should not be able to defeat an army with just HA either

........Orda
Before any further discussion, I have to apologize for my tone. And I do so, hoping that you'd accept my humble apology.

The thing is that in BI, the factions that has the efficient HA, have nothing but them. Let's take Huns as an example, they are 'quite' useless without their HA. I can live with rules as long as they allow for a bigger varied tactics list, and some differences in the game that provide better experience and nicer gameplay; seeing the dynamic way of playing they may allow for. In RTW, a time has come when the normal army was 5 urbans, 9 cav and 6 archers, of course that got a lot of people bored and some even leaving for a while (I was one of those, even though I had rarely lost a game back then, at least a 1 on 1).

[Orda Khan]

I understand exactly what you mean with Huns, I have mentioned their inadequacies more than once. IMO, CA got it wrong when they formulated the BI factions, as you are well aware, there are other factions who have access to cheaper HA with better melee stats. Hun Elites are expensive for what they are and the Hunnic HC can be undercut in price with no less melee stats also. Add rubbish infantry to this and the overall picture is quite bad. I was hoping CA would improve on the Golden Horde of MTW but they just repeated things with Huns in BI, I mean why would Ostrogoths have access to HA yet the Huns have no access to Ostrogoth infantry? It's nonsense.
The game should require no rules and what you say about a certain army becoming the 'usual' MP army happened in MTW as well. The game is always better in the early days of release, before the exploits are uncovered, after that the quest for success is so great that everyone jumps on the same 'uber' army. Those VI Mods I mentioned really do prove that things can be much better and there is ample opportunity for varied armies and tactics. With the Community Mod I used Mongols extensively, they lacked in certain areas but were compensated in others. I won many nice victories, but the HA would not win the battle alone, you had to rely on back up and constant micro management of the HA, tactics decided the outcome, just as it should be.
This 'no upgrades' approach is something I have been advocating since MTW was released, because the multitude of variable equations to cost etc, etc brought about by honour/valour/experience plus weapon and armour makes it probably impossible to totally balance the game. I even thought the honour only upgrade of STW was not too great. In MTW I can remember pavs with max upgrades standing up to frontal charges by Knights. If CA were to create their units with the goal of a target cost for the army and make this figure known, we would see some improvement. With nothing to upgrade, the player simply tries variables among unit choices and remember, an army that worked in battle A may not work in battle B due to terrain etc. The player would still have the choice to pick elite units but would have to settle on a small army because of cost.
I hope CC is still a feature in MTW II, it was so good to finally get mobile HA but there has to be a fine line between those HA you can just ignore and those who will shoot you to pieces. I reckon the ideal is somewhere in the middle. For those of us who admire the HA and prefer steppe type armies and tactics, it is essential that CA get things right this time

...........Orda

[NihilisticCow]

Well the problem with the likes of Huns is that in numbers with cantabrian circle, horse archers are just too good - and horse archers are basically the Hun army. Bear in mind that without the horse archer restrictions, the Huns are probably the most powerful faction in the game since all their cavalry units are that little bit larger than usual, so taking about 5-6 cavalry units, you basically get a free unit in terms of numbers. Their infantry is not so great for a reason, but their infantry is still effective (Shiltroms are great holding units), but you just are not going to win a game with it alone.

I am though thinking that the Huns can be an effective force with cantabrian circle being banned and a general limit on the number of archer units mounted or unmounted, basically so as to try and make the game "fair". You don't actually need cantabrian circle if you are prepared to keep your horse archers moving in different directions, but you obviously cannot do this with your entire army. The extra cavalry numbers the Huns bring to bear do I think compensate for the lack of any killing infantry.

[BHCWarman88]

I don't really Mind CC. It the Horse archers I hate,if the people use CC or not. have you ever been in a Game,where some get like,say, 8 horse Archers,Huns,BI.. you fought and fight, and you cav is dead and only got inf left,no archers or anything.he still got 2 horse archers still fully intact,and 2 more half Dead fro fighting. they shoot your inf till they weak enough for them to chrage and massacre or just shoot them all down.. that what I hate..

[Reenk Roink]

Well, after a few more (stressful) meetings with Cow (he likes to make everything difficult :tongue2:) I have come to 3 conclusions:

1) Corner camping heavy infantry (with some archer support) defeats a horse archer spam.

2) t3h BerBer furY (lighting quick, decently upgraded cavalry, with camel and horse archer support) will defeat horse archer spam.

3) Cow is annoying :tongue2:

First, I wanted to take many heavy infantry units and place them in a corner, to weather the arrows.

I made an army with a strong and large heavy infantry core, with some archer support (it was a bad decision).

https://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4057/post15jt.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

I made the rules:
6 max (standard RTK)
no art (usually a given)
Cow can use Cantabrian Circle, I cannot

However, Cow stipulated that corner/side camping is also not allowed, because he said horse archers couldn't defeat it. So there you go, to best this tactic, corner camp (note: corner camping is not an unbeatable tactic either).

Without the benefit of the corner camping, Cow’s horse archers ate my army up even worse than the first one. As this time, I had no cavalry, Cow was relatively free to do what he wanted to. My Eastern Archers and horse archer unit did do some damage to Cow’s units, but there were too many of them, and soon I ran out of ammo. By the time two-thirds of my infantry were dead, I admitted defeat.

https://img486.imageshack.us/img486/547/cow15ou.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Knowing what I had to do, I took out t3h BerBer furY. Out of concern that your retinas will be burned if you gaze upon the immense power of t3h BerBer furY, I will not show the army.

However, the devious Cow simply wanted to win, and to counter my selection of t3h BerBer furY, he chose all heavy cavalry and spearmen, neglecting horse archers. He camped on a hill by the corner :rolleyes:.

I just rolled my eyes at him, and he went into a full charge, thinking his cavalry would be able to best mine. But his spearmen lagged behind, and his cavalry was sucked in by by horse archers, swarmed, and dispatched. Then, the spearmen were harassed by horse archers, and separated and destroyed.

https://img486.imageshack.us/img486/2391/cow13er.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Lesson:

Cow is more annoying than Cantabrian Circle...

[x-dANGEr]

Hmm.. That's an interesting result in the second screenie 0-0

[NihilisticCow]

Hmm.. That's an interesting result in the second screenie 0-0

I underestimated fully upgraded berber cavalry in the desert and just charged them unsupported, lost my general and chain routed due to that and camels. ~:mecry: