UK elections May 4th

[rory_20_uk]

I am increasingly hearing from many sources how important it is that I vote in the elections - as this is democracy damnit!

Can anyone fill me in as to the differences between the parties? Are some advocating that they're not going to collect the litter for example?

I find national parties very similar with the major differences lost after realpolitik hits what passes for idealism. Local ones seem to matter even less.

In essence - what am I missing? :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

[English assassin]

Grrr. I spend 8 years as a local councillor in London.... they may not vote but that doesn't stop the buggers complaining does it....

Anyway, no, all parties are in favour of collecting litter, and are against dog poo (and in realising that you have already acheived greater political sophistication than the liberal democrats, who seem to think that only they are against dog poo and that every other party would positively encourage the stuff. Mind you in light of Charles Clarkes "More rapists under Labour" policy who knows...)

Putting politics to one side, I suggest you decide if you are happy with what you know of the local services in your area, having regard (1) to the council tax you pay and (2) to the services and council tax other councils provide (hint Westminster hint). If you are happy, vote for the lot you have got (unless they are liberal democrats) if not, vote for the other lot (NB not liberal democrats).

Failing that please draw a big penis on the ballot paper, it always gives the scrutineers a laugh. Only don't do it in the box for the liberal democrats, in case it counts as a vote.

[Al Khalifah]

they may not vote but that doesn't stop the buggers complaining does it
Why bother? All the parties are the same. They only have one promise:
"We're better than the other guys."

The only parties that would demand and could effect real change will never get voted for any position of power and let's face it - local councils have no power.

Oh no... I voted Labour, so now my bins will be emptied on Monday instead of Wednesday... oh what have I done! I knew I should've voted Green :idea2: .

[lancelot]

Why bother? All the parties are the same. They only have one promise:
"We're better than the other guys."


Very true...

My favourite is PM's question time...what a complete joke...Mps get together to take the piss out of the opposition, wave bits of paper and boo and hiss like that somehow comunicates some grand ideas!?!?

The worst thing is...we pay for them to do this!!! I wonder about democracy sometimes...

[rory_20_uk]

In the commons lying is allowed, manipulation needs to be truely blatant before anyone is aware, let alone looses their job, let alone gets criminal action.

Ideally the meritocracy in the Civil Service should mean the best rise to the top. As it is it's a termite hill of mediocrity with all departments vying to increase size (and therefore power base) with no thought to efficiency.

Democracy is shite. Sadly there's nothing else.

~:smoking:

[Duke Malcolm]

Putting politics to one side, I suggest you decide if you are happy with what you know of the local services in your area, having regard (1) to the council tax you pay and (2) to the services and council tax other councils provide (hint Westminster hint). If you are happy, vote for the lot you have got (unless they are liberal democrats) if not, vote for the other lot (NB not liberal democrats).

Failing that please draw a big penis on the ballot paper, it always gives the scrutineers a laugh. Only don't do it in the box for the liberal democrats, in case it counts as a vote.
I don't think it would really matter if anything should slip into the box marked "Liberal Democrats", they only evertry to be second-best, never the actual winner...


Democracy is sh*te
Don't swear...

[Justiciar]

I don't think it would really matter if anything should slip into the box marked "Liberal Democrats", they only evertry to be second-best, never the actual winner..
Aye. My parents are both (usually, though not of late) Lib Dem supporters, and my grandmother is the most militant liberal I've ever met. That said, they made a bad choice when they chose Campbell. On a local scale they suck arse too. They've been leeching money to pay for the most excessive, pointless things and to fill their own pockets. Meh. The Tories and Labour are a bunch of crooks too. Regardless, I might be ditching all of my principles and taking one big dump on my family, but I'll be voting for the chinless crowd pleaser that is Cameron. My first vote too. Treason! :laugh4:

[Al Khalifah]

Vote for the BNP.
It scares the hell out the establishment and apparently their councillor in Bradford is the most popular on the council.

Unless you're asian...

[Ja'chyra]

No election here as far as I know, at least no ballot card.

Anyway, I think instead of a tick I'll go with the "Politicians are all tossers" across the whole page option next time.

[JAG]

Man we are going to get a kicking, never mind, we probably deserve it after some of the shambles of the last week. I just hope we hold onto some of the traditional inner city strongholds and have no more Newcastle's.

Local elections are important, they set up the foundation for a strong party one of the reasons why the Tories got so whiped off the face of the political map in 97 was because they had no councils left except a few rural ones. If you get beat and beat and beat at the local elections it comes back to haunt you.

[Tribesman]

Man we are going to get a kicking
JAG I thought you were just a little ever so slightly left leaning , so how do you apply the "we" when you talk of Blairs labour party ?

[rory_20_uk]

I see how people use the local elections as a determinant as to how happy they are at central government - but doesn't that mean we could just have a national poll, and sack all the councellors? Wouldn't that be nice?? :2thumbsup:

~:smoking:

[English assassin]

Much better to keep the councillors and sack the national politicians. Local councillors do actually do stuff, I get/got lots of emails along the lines of "That bloody road hump is too high" "Yes I know I cycled over it this morning, I'll email the Environment dept" "That bloody road hump is still too high" "I know I'll give them a kicking" "Thanks for getting the road hump mended"

Actually, that last bit never happens, no one ever says thank you.

[ShadesWolf]

Local elections are totally different to national one. This is whats sets out what is going on in your area.

ie,
Environment
Sports and leisure
Crime
Health


The people that get in your local council will decide how much council tax you will pay. They will decide on what car parking charges will be applied to your local car parks. How often your rubbish bins are collected etc.....

Generally labour run areas spend more money, but you pay far highter council taxes in proportion to tory run councils.

[JAG]

Man we are going to get a kicking
JAG I thought you were just a little ever so slightly left leaning , so how do you apply the "we" when you talk of Blairs labour party ?

I say we because I am a member of the Labour party and I have campaigned locally for the party up here.

[Tribesman]

I say we because I am a member of the Labour party
Ah I see ,sorry Jag , I thought that maybe you had resigned your membership when they became ThatcherLite~;)

[rory_20_uk]

Oh dear oh dear. So, the volte face by Tony has not dampened your feveror?

I imagine the usual "coz if we don't the Tories will get in" in the argument, yes?

~:smoking:

[Kralizec]

Hehe, here in the Netherlands one of the government parties, D66, made total fools out of themselves during the last year. With the local council elections, they got hurt bad...and lots local detachments of D66 have taken different names and cut the umbrelical cord with the national D66. Ouch...but they deserved it. Does that sort of stuff ever happen in the UK?

[JAG]

I say we because I am a member of the Labour party
Ah I see ,sorry Jag , I thought that maybe you had resigned your membership when they became ThatcherLite~;)

heh, well as I say to many people you would be surprised with the amount of good lefty things this govt does.

[Sjakihata]

A lot of pre- and sufixes can probable be applied to labour, along with a good bunch of adjectives, but don't insult a proud tradition and call them 'lefty' or anything that comes near.

[InsaneApache]

The BNP has done well in Barking (woof!!), they bloody well must be barking to vote for the fascists.


BNP making big gains in Barking

The British National Party has doubled its number of councillors in England - including winning 11 seats from Labour in Barking and Dagenham.

The party, which already had about 20 councillors, also gained three in Sandwell and three in Epping Forest.

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4974870.stm)

This is a direct result of the social engineering experiment that New Labour has been pursuing for nearly a decade. Unlimited immigration and the decision to abolish border controls in the late 90s have contributed to the rise of the BNP.

The politicians say that they have to engage with the electorate, but then they ignore them because they don't like what a lot of them are saying.

One day they will have to take into account that the white working classes just don't want to be shoe-horned into a multi-cultural society.

If someone in the political elite doesn't get his head out of his arse and address this issue, I can foresee a lot of problems in the future.

[English assassin]

Hehe, here in the Netherlands one of the government parties, D66, made total fools out of themselves during the last year. With the local council elections, they got hurt bad...and lots local detachments of D66 have taken different names and cut the umbrelical cord with the national D66. Ouch...but they deserved it. Does that sort of stuff ever happen in the UK?

Not really. Occasionally you get "residents groups" that look suspiciously like a bunch of people who used to be the local labour/tory party, and Blairs brilliant idea of elected mayors produced a crop of monkey mascots, (really http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/england/4522687.stm) but that's about it.

We don't have PR for most local elections so there's not much future in being a splitter.

[Boohugh]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/vote2006/locals/map/html/map.stm

Looks like Labour really did get a kicking in some areas. Clarke has already been fired and Blair's made his biggest cabinet reshuffle so far, you can almost smell the fear emanating from the top ~D

[Al Khalifah]

It's an absolute spanking for Labour and about time too. The current government's idea of what the Labour party is supposed to represent makes me sick.

Perhaps the government will take into account that people are very disgruntled with certain aspects of their policies (hence the high BNP vote) and make positive changes to address them. Or more likely, they'll just discard them and claim that they are just racists and shouldn't be allowed to run.

A pretty rubbish performance by the Liberal Democrats too, but what do you expect with Ming the Mericless for a leader. If only they'd recognise they are essentially 'the student party' and try to cater for it, perhaps they'd improve.

[rory_20_uk]

Well, at least New Labout didn't ruin teh economy like Old Labour managed to do. Sure, I don't agree with where the money is going but at least the country isn't bankrupt.

If Labour had some strategic policies instead of a melange of altering eye-catching ideas that last for a few months / years before being replaced by a flurry of others I'd be quite content with things. That and Europe of course.

Massively taxing the rich and massive spending is a surefire way of making companies flee the country. 40% is harsh enough as it is.

~:smoking:

[Duke of Gloucester]

The BNP has done well in Barking (woof!!), they bloody well must be barking to vote for the fascists.

Good news is that they lost a seat in Bradford MDC

[lancelot]

It's an absolute spanking for Labour and about time too. The current government's idea of what the Labour party is supposed to represent makes me sick.

Perhaps the government will take into account that people are very disgruntled with certain aspects of their policies (hence the high BNP vote) and make positive changes to address them. Or more likely, they'll just discard them and claim that they are just racists and shouldn't be allowed to run.


I fear you have some sort of powers that see into the future, good sir...

As much as I dont care for the BNP, Im actually glad they got in... If nothing else it is sending a message that people will only tolerate so much and not just vote for the top 2 parties.

[Duke of Gloucester]

As much as I dont care for the BNP, Im actually glad they got in... If nothing else it is sending a message that people will only tolerate so much and not just vote for the top 2 parties.

Yes, and it was just the same with those votes for the NSDAP in 1929. A kick up the backside for the incumbent regime and nothing to worry about at all.


Or more likely, they'll just discard them and claim that they are just racists and shouldn't be allowed to run.

Well they should be allowed to run, but they are racist and no-one should vote for them.

[lancelot]

Yes, and it was just the same with those votes for the NSDAP in 1929. A kick up the backside for the incumbent regime and nothing to worry about at all.

Hardly a fair analogy but whatever...



Well they should be allowed to run, but they are racist and no-one should vote for them.

So the majority of Barking residents are now card carrying nazi-wannabes because they voted BNP?

From what little I saw of the news reporters talking to people in Barking, it wasnt that black/asian/whatever people was what locals were upset about.

It was the fact that they felt that foreigners regardless of ethnicity were being prioritized over them.

That is nationalism- which all too often gets used synonymously with racism, till the point where you cant even suggest anything whithout someone screaming rascist.

Now, Im not saying that some, perhaps many of the BNP are actual racists but that still doesnt mean that the people who do vote BNP are neccesarily racist themselves.

[Fragony]

It would be interesting to see how many BNP-voters consider themselves as protest-voters, you can't expect people to stay calm when their genuine concerns get the broadbrush treatment. I guess they are a bit sick of being called a horrible person by filthy rich multicultists that eat at a pakistan restaurant once a week and have a immigrant friend as a pet now that black buttlers just aren't fashionable anymore, just because they are concerned about their living enviroments .

[lancelot]

^ You are correct.

What I saw of residents speaking to reporters said precisley that....even the old men, reminds you of your Grandpa type...you know, your typical racist thug... :2thumbsup:

[Tribesman]

What I saw of residents speaking to reporters said precisley that....even the old men, reminds you of your Grandpa type...you know, your typical racist thug...
What you mean like Alf Garnet :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[InsaneApache]

What I saw of residents speaking to reporters said precisley that....even the old men, reminds you of your Grandpa type...you know, your typical racist thug...
What you mean like Alf Garnet :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Oh, but didn't the 'Scouse Gits' daughter do well for herself. :laugh4:

[Duke of Gloucester]

So the majority of Barking residents are now card carrying nazi-wannabes because they voted BNP?

From what little I saw of the news reporters talking to people in Barking, it wasnt that black/asian/whatever people was what locals were upset about.

It was the fact that they felt that foreigners regardless of ethnicity were being prioritized over them.


The point of the Nazi analogy was that perfectly reasonable people did vote for them. Also they used the same tactics the BNP: tell people that "outsiders" are to blame for their woes. Fortunately, I don't think that we will be hit by ridiculous inflation and ecconomic collapse, so I don't think that we will end up with a BNP government. However, I am not relaxed about their growing strength and certainly not glad that so many people are prepared to vote for them.

[Fragony]

The point of the Nazi analogy was that perfectly reasonable people did vote for them. Also they used the same tactics the BNP: tell people that "outsiders" are to blame for their woes. Fortunately, I don't think that we will be hit by ridiculous inflation and ecconomic collapse, so I don't think that we will end up with a BNP government. However, I am not relaxed about their growing strength and certainly not glad that so many people are prepared to vote for them.

They will make a complete fool out of theirselves, people didn't vote for them, people voted against the current establishment. It will pass, it is going to be interesting what the real parties are going to cook up. Have some peanuts and enjoy the show.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Oh, but didn't the 'Scouse Gits' daughter do well for herself.

Great accademic performance and career so far, but poor choice of husband. :laugh4:

[rotorgun]

Beg pardon, just a question or two from a curious Yank, but am I to take it that there were three parties running for office, BNP, NLP, and LDP?

Am I right to gather from the tone of the posts that the BNP won the majority of the seats? How often do such elections take place in the United Kingdom? We have Congressional and Senate elections every two years, with Presidential every four, as I'm sure that many know. Is it similar in the UK?

Thanks

[lancelot]

The point of the Nazi analogy was that perfectly reasonable people did vote for them. Also they used the same tactics the BNP: tell people that "outsiders" are to blame for their woes. Fortunately, I don't think that we will be hit by ridiculous inflation and ecconomic collapse, so I don't think that we will end up with a BNP government. However, I am not relaxed about their growing strength and certainly not glad that so many people are prepared to vote for them.

Fair enough point I suppose but what if the outsiders are to blame or at least a part of the problem...? It is possible after all...

The left wing acts like the possiblity of outsiders actually causing problems is some sort of unthinkable, often 'racist' implausibility.

Perhaps we should not be worried that people are voting for them, rather that the current government seems to be making such a complete mess of things that people vote BNP.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Fair enough point I suppose but what if the outsiders are to blame or at least a part of the problem...? It is possible after all...


Well outsiders as a group can't be a problem, unless you have a problem with outsiders per se, but anyone who has a problem with a group like that is a racist. They may call themselves "nationalists" and start their more racist pronouncements "I am not a racist but.." but racists they are. Of course individuals may be a problem, but once you start saying things like "a group of Asian lads shouted abuse at my daughter so its obvious that Asians have no respect for women and don't share our culture" you are being racist because you are applying the general to the specific.

It is also so much easier to blame the outsider for your problems. You will have heard the sort of thing: "I can't get an appointment at my GP because of all these asylum seekers" whereas the real problem is that it is difficult to run the health service effectively without paying excessive amounts of tax. Much easier to say all we need to do is get rid of immigrants, Jews, blacks, Asians, etc.. You can blame them for your inability to get a job. It is not your fault. It is (insert whatever group it is fashionable to blame) who are stealing our jobs.

You can even blame our lack of national identity on these incomers. They are undermining our culture and they do not share our values. The truth is if we had more unity and confidence ourselves, these problems would not arise.


The left wing acts like the possiblity of outsiders actually causing problems is some sort of unthinkable, often 'racist' implausibility.

If this means that the left wing does not allow an entire group to be targeted, rather than considering individuals, then good for the left wing. If the suggestion is that no outsiders can ever commit crime or behave badly: well that would be silly.


Perhaps we should not be worried that people are voting for them, rather that the current government seems to be making such a complete mess of things that people vote BNP.

This is exactly the problem and precisely what I am worried about.

[Al Khalifah]

If this means that the left wing does not allow an entire group to be targeted, rather than considering individuals, then good for the left wing.
The British left wing frequently does target an entire group - its called the white straight non-disabled employment-age population. They frequently make speaches using the royal 'we' to refer to this group and imply that 'we' are the cause of many of many problems and that 'we' need to be more multi-cultural and accepting. 'They' don't seem to appreciate that 'we' in Britain are one of - if not the - most accepting nations in the world. We are a nation of immigrants and have virtually no rigid national identity unlike most of the world's nations. But unfortunately 'we' can never quite measure up to 'their' standards.

The BNP will continue to score points while ever this double-thinking fantasy world is thrust into peoples faces and we're forced to drown in the self-made truths they choose to feed us to try and satisfy our little insecurities. I hate what they stand for, but still all I can say is good on the BNP. I hope they continue to make gains and perhaps even take a seat in the next general election so that maybe, just maybe, one of the New Labour rubbish talkers will stop and listen to themself speak for a second and realise what an utter arse they sound. Since I doubt the effectiveness of the mainstream opposition to make them do so and even when legitimate concerns are raised, they're just shouted down in the Punch and Judy show that is the Westminster Parliament.

[Tribesman]

Beg pardon, just a question or two from a curious Yank, but am I to take it that there were three parties running for office, BNP, NLP, and LDP?

Nope , its English local elections in just a few boroughs , there were lots of different parties and loads of independants .

Am I right to gather from the tone of the posts that the BNP won the majority of the seats?
Nope , out of the 4400+ seats up for grabs they got 32 , the tone of the posts is down to the BNP being fascist scum .



Does anyone find it funny that in Barking and Dagenham those that suffered more electoraly wise due to this "protest vote" against Labour turned out to be the Conservatives , Liberal Democrats and Residents Association .:inquisitive:

[rotorgun]

To Tribesman,

Thank you. I gather that for a party that only garnered 32 seats out of 4400, it is making quite a stir. I have been following the rise of the BNP from time to time. I guess that the UK is having its own problems with immigration. I hope that in your case that they are at least legal immigrants. The BNP seems to be attracting a goodly portion of the "grass root" type people, or are they really the facists that you refer to?

Appreciate it, Rotor

[lancelot]

Well outsiders as a group can't be a problem, unless you have a problem with outsiders per se, but anyone who has a problem with a group like that is a racist. They may call themselves "nationalists" and start their more racist pronouncements "I am not a racist but.." but racists they are. Of course individuals may be a problem, but once you start saying things like "a group of Asian lads shouted abuse at my daughter so its obvious that Asians have no respect for women and don't share our culture" you are being racist because you are applying the general to the specific.

I have to disagree here...it is certainly possible that large influx of people into a population could cause problems regardless of any race/age/sex issues. Surely you must conceed that volume in itself could be a problem.

Furthermore if a person has a problem with immigration and through that immigrants...call them outsiders if you want...where is the racial element to that?....I certainly think immigration needs to be looked at but that statement has no racial commentary whatsoever.

Again I think there is some interchangability with nationalism and racism going on here...which is completely wrong.

A person supporting their national football team is displaying nationalism...which clearly does not have (or shouldnt have) any hate-connotations and is therefore clearly distinct and seperate from racism.



It is also so much easier to blame the outsider for your problems. You will have heard the sort of thing: "I can't get an appointment at my GP because of all these asylum seekers" whereas the real problem is that it is difficult to run the health service effectively without paying excessive amounts of tax. Much easier to say all we need to do is get rid of immigrants, Jews, blacks, Asians, etc.. You can blame them for your inability to get a job. It is not your fault. It is (insert whatever group it is fashionable to blame) who are stealing our jobs..

Im not suggesting that the outsider is the 'reason' for national problems but by using your own example to illustrate-

I cant get a GP appointment for 2 weeks at my overworked, understaffed, poorly maintained doctors...

Now add an 'outsider' to the equation...the Doctor now has more patients to see...me + 'outsider'. So clearly the outsider is part of/not helping the situation.



You can even blame our lack of national identity on these incomers. They are undermining our culture and they do not share our values. The truth is if we had more unity and confidence ourselves, these problems would not arise


I think some people do feel immigration can undermine our culture...my Grandmother (a staunch Labourite BTW) lived in the East Ham area for many years as a middle aged/retired woman....now the place is alien to her it has changed so much....so what is that?...her lack of unity and confidence? ...her lack of national identity?...all her problem?

I dont think you can say that her generation lacked unity and confidence when she lived there in a time where you knew all the people in the street and could leave your front door unlocked at night.

I just dont think its fair that you seem to dismiss the concerns people have as a weakness or lack of this or that.

[Tribesman]

The BNP seems to be attracting a goodly portion of the "grass root" type people, or are they really the fascists that you refer to?

Rotor do you mean the party or the people who vote for it ?
The party , its membership , its policies and its entire rationale are fascist .
The people who vote for it fall into different groups . You have the real fascist racist scum , those that vote as a protest against other parties and those that vote but don't even know what they are voting for .
Basically it is a party for simpletons , people who like simple answers to complex issues , in this case , everything is the fault of people who are different . Since it determines different as being defined by race then it is a racist party .
Though of course membership is not restricted to White Britons . It is open to any White northern Europeans , but not to Slavs as they are culturally inferior , which sounds just a little bit like the Nazi party doesn't it .

BTW anyone hear about the BNP councillor in Stoke , he manged to get his brain functioning sufficiently to speak at council meetings twice during his two years in office , once was to show his great grasp of the political mind of the master race , he gave this great incisive political speech ...."what does abstain mean ?"
BNP , the party of the stupid , for the stupid .:help:
But hey , they are going to abolish all income tax .:stupido:

Second BTW , the BNP proposed a candidate who was Greek of Armenian descent , under party membership rules he was ineligable for membership , in Britain can a party put forward a candidate who is not a party member ?

[Marcellus]

From Wikipedia:


According to its constitution, the BNP "stands for the preservation of the national and ethnic character of the British people and is wholly opposed to any form of racial integration between British and non-European peoples" and is therefore committed to "restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948". To achieve this aim, the BNP advocates the use of "firm but voluntary incentives" to remove ethnic minorities from the UK. Membership of the party is restricted to "Indigenous Caucasians"


Under John Tyndall's leadership, for example, the party campaigned for the compulsory repatriation of all ethnic minorities. The party now advocates voluntary repatriation encouraged by government grants. This was a policy for which Griffin argued during his 1999 leadership campaign: at the time The Times quoted him as saying that while, like many members, he still privately supported forcible repatriation, he believed the policy was a "vote loser".

Likewise, the BNP's historical commitment to re-criminalising homosexuality was no longer in its 2005 manifesto, nevertheless, the party opposed the introduction of civil partnerships in the United Kingdom.

The party's other policies include:

* The ending of immigration to the UK
* "A massively-funded and permanent programme, using and doubling Britain's current foreign aid budget, will aim to reduce, by voluntary resettlement to their lands of ethnic origin, the proportion of ethnic minorities living in Britain"
* The removal of all illegal immigrants
* The repeal of all equality and anti-discrimination legislation, including measures aimed at employing people with disabilities.
* Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union and the pursuit of protectionist economic measures.
* Encouraging greater share ownership and worker co-operatives.
* Restricting foreign aid to the support of countries receiving "repatriated" members of ethnic minorities. Griffin argued against giving unconditional foreign aid, including disaster aid, claiming 'charity' is not an acceptable use of public funds.
* The introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals, and the introduction of capital punishment for paedophiles, terrorists and murderers.
* The reintroduction of national service and the withdrawal of some civil rights from conscientious objectors, including the right to vote.
* The requirement of all law-abiding adults completing national service to maintain a standard issue automatic rifle in their home.
* A mandatory jail term for anyone assaulting an NHS worker.
* The reunification of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland in a 'federation of the nations of the British Isles'

Other policies include the promotion of organic farming, funding to encourage women (in every family) to stay home and raise children not yet of school age, and increasing defence spending.

The party truly is made up of the worst kind of people imaginable. Those voting BNP as a 'protest vote' may not be exactly racist, but they are being rather stupid. This party is wholy nasty and cannot be allowed to succeed , even if half its support comes from 'protest votes'.

[BDC]

What makes me laugh about all this is that I know a girl who lives in the town where the vote was a complete draw, and literally decided by a pencil. She didn't vote because "her vote wouldn't change anything".

[rotorgun]

My thanks to Tribseman and Marcellus for the informative post about the BNP. I had no idea that such an extreme right wing group had emerged in the United Kingdom. I completly retract my inferrence that the members are made up of "grass roots" people. By that, I meant the usual types of people that make up a majority of the working and agricultural class in any country. I can see now how decidedly "Nazi" the aims of this organization are. If they were ever to gain a majority of seats in parliment they would set things back at least sixty years. My word! I agree, they are rather extreme, to say the least. I'm no bleeding heart liberal, although I am a democrat, but this...
it's a rather dangerous viewpoint to take in the 21st century.

[Tribesman]

I had no idea that such an extreme right wing group had emerged in the United Kingdom.
They are nothing new , in one form or another they have been around for years , often splitting and reforming due to arguements about which paricular group they should be blaming for all the countries problems .
They have had the TSL , BBL , NF , BF , NP , BUF (probably one of the more famous ones) , BL, IFL, BL of ex-servicemen (nice patriotic title), UM , LEL , NF (a different one) ,WDL , NLP , BNP , NSM , GBM ,RPS, NSG , NF ( a different one again) , NNF , BM , and now the BNP , the founder of this current party was involved with 6 of the earlier parties .

[rotorgun]

I had no idea that such an extreme right wing group had emerged in the United Kingdom.
They are nothing new , in one form or another they have been around for years , often splitting and reforming due to arguements about which paricular group they should be blaming for all the countries problems .
They have had the TSL , BBL , NF , BF , NP , BUF (probably one of the more famous ones) , BL, IFL, BL of ex-servicemen (nice patriotic title), UM , LEL , NF (a different one) ,WDL , NLP , BNP , NSM , GBM ,RPS, NSG , NF ( a different one again) , NNF , BM , and now the BNP , the founder of this current party was involved with 6 of the earlier parties .
And I thought our form of government to be revolutionary. How do you sort it all out? Fascinating.

PS edit: change that "revolutionary" to downright chaotic!~;)

[Marcellus]

If they were ever to gain a majority of seats in parliment they would set things back at least sixty years.

Thankfully they haven't got a single seat in Parliament. Hopefully it will stay that way.

[Tribesman]

And I thought our form of government to be revolutionary. How do you sort it all out? Fascinating.

Hey Rotor , its not my government , but when I was living in that country these wonderful people were campaingning to get me kicked out .
Back then the Irish workers were the source of all Britains problems , which is why I loved attending their political rallies .
Its funny isn't it , after all the years of being anti Irish they now want to re-unite Ireland with Britain .

[Justiciar]

We do? :dizzy2: Either I need to get out more or you should visit fewer conspiracy websites.

[Tribesman]

We do? Either I need to get out more or you should visit fewer conspiracy websites.
Read any the British Movement or National Front manifestos from the 70's and 80's Justicar . back then they wanted to forcibly repatriate the Irish , as well as the Blacks , Asians , Turks ,Greeks and just about everyone else who was stealing the jobs of real honest to goodness white britons.
Then read the current BNP manifesto . They want The reunification of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland in a 'federation of the nations of the British Isles
Forget conspiracy websites, visit the parties own .
And if you want a really good laugh at their hate filled bile , visit their forums .

[Justiciar]

Jebus. :laugh4: Like that'll work.

[Kralizec]

reunification?

[Tribesman]

reunification?
Yep , I wonder if it will be like the old unification where they filled the place with immigrants who stole all the jobs .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Ja'chyra]

Before I say anything else I do not support the BNP.

That being said I can understand why some people vote for them, I don't believe it is because they support all of their policies but more that they are they only party that seems to be answering their questions. Take immigration for example, lots of everyday people are opposed to the amount of immigration that we have at the minute. In my opinion most of the BNP's voters are focussing on the one thing that matters to them most, immigration, and failing to look at the wider policies. Does this make them stupid, or scum? I don't think so, narrowminded maybe.

I also think that one of the major issues with people voting BNP is that the major parties just don't deal with the issues adequately, they faff about and eventually all go down the middle of the road option and this just pisses people off.

Personally I would rather not vote at all than vote BNP, but in this I can partly understand why they get protest votes, the major parties should not be complaining about the BNP, they should be looking at where they fail and cause people to vote BNP.

[Fragony]

* The ending of immigration to the UK
* "A massively-funded and permanent programme, using and doubling Britain's current foreign aid budget, will aim to reduce, by voluntary resettlement to their lands of ethnic origin, the proportion of ethnic minorities living in Britain"
* The removal of all illegal immigrants
* The repeal of all equality and anti-discrimination legislation, including measures aimed at employing people with disabilities.
* Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union and the pursuit of protectionist economic measures.
* Encouraging greater share ownership and worker co-operatives.
* Restricting foreign aid to the support of countries receiving "repatriated" members of ethnic minorities. Griffin argued against giving unconditional foreign aid, including disaster aid, claiming 'charity' is not an acceptable use of public funds.
* The introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals, and the introduction of capital punishment for paedophiles, terrorists and murderers.
* The reintroduction of national service and the withdrawal of some civil rights from conscientious objectors, including the right to vote.
* The requirement of all law-abiding adults completing national service to maintain a standard issue automatic rifle in their home.
* A mandatory jail term for anyone assaulting an NHS worker.
* The reunification of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland in a 'federation of the nations of the British Isles'

This doesn't sound so unreasonable to me really, so this is what's bothering people? It's a bit like our LPF (Fortuyn's party), only more emphasis on the military, and anti-european.

[InsaneApache]

but they left out the bits where they intend to 'resettle' (possibly in the east; there is a precedent) the 'darkies' who refuse to go home, on the basis that they were born here, thier children were born here, thier parents were born here.

Lebenraum anyone?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

just go look at their website rather than quoting wikipedia,
that way you can see what policies they were standing on this time.

[Fragony]

but they left out the bits where they intend to 'resettle' (possibly in the east; there is a precedent) the 'darkies' who refuse to go home, on the basis that they were born here, thier children were born here, thier parents were born here.

Lebenraum anyone?

But that is just absurd, and it's never going to happen. I dunno, I was left to believe that the BNP was a neo-nazi party, this is far from it, just far right. Perhaps the BNP proves to be a great contribution for uk politics, sounds like it needed something like this to happen, now the other parties can copy and paste and present the exact same thing with some sugar coating. It reminds me a lot of the Fortuyn hype we had here, nobody takes his gang seriously anymore but his idea's have been used by practically every moderate party.

[English assassin]

I was left to believe that the BNP was a neo-nazi party, this is far from it, just far right.

Even the Nazis didn't actually start off wanting to gas people in 1933 you know. They just wanted the Jews to go to some ill defined "away". rather like the BNP...

I was just looking something up in an encyclopedia of local government law this afternoon, and I found an entry in the index for "Idiots, voting, disqualification from"

it would be a good idea, I thought...

[Fragony]

I was just looking something up in an encyclopedia of local government law this afternoon, and I found an entry in the index for "Idiots, voting, disqualification from"

it would be a good idea, I thought...

Democracy isn't a chorus where everybody sings the same songs, personally I think it is a good thing the BNP scored so spectacularly because it's great shocktherapy for politicians who have gotten addicted to their own existance and are too concerned about their job to actually have an opinion about some most pressing matters. This whole thing amuses me, this is what happens when you call ordinary decent people scum, I hope the political elite gets the message and developes a testicle or two.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

didn't the National Front get a good turnout where they stood?
I just ask as they actually are blatantly all about white supremacy and such. Last year (I think) they wrote a bunch of letters to various newspapers criticizing the BNP for not being like them. I don't know if anybody noticed these strange additions to your normal letters in the letters pages.
Also, England First won a couple of seats, this being a party that was formed by BNP members who felt that the BNP was far too moderate.

Does anybody know if Respect fielded any non-Muslim candidates for these elections? Or is it becoming the first (very moderately) succesful U.K. Islamic party?

It was the most interesting council elections I've ever known.

[English assassin]

Respect fielded a lot of non-Islamic candidates. But you are right it seems to be turning into an Islamic party. Georgeous is supping with the devil, and I think the devil has his eyes on Georgeous...

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

every Respect candidate elected bore a "Muslim" name (all the ones I noticed anyway).

[English assassin]

Elected, you may be right, not sure.

[Tribesman]

This doesn't sound so unreasonable to me really
No surprise there .
But that is just absurd, and it's never going to happen.
Ah just like most of the policies of this party , absurd .
This whole thing amuses me, this is what happens when you call ordinary decent people scum
hmmmm....compared to a party that wants to treat ordinary decent people as scum just because of the colour of their skin , or where their ancestors came from .

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Elected, you may be right, not sure.

That's why I asked if there were any non-Muslim Respect candidates, just to clarify why I posted what I did.

[Duke of Gloucester]

This doesn't sound so unreasonable to me really, so this is what's bothering people?

Well lets see:

* The ending of immigration to the UK
Everyone supports immigration controls. Legal immigrants are allowed to come to the UK because we need their skills. In fact they are encouraged.

* "A massively-funded and permanent programme, using and doubling Britain's current foreign aid budget, will aim to reduce, by voluntary resettlement to their lands of ethnic origin, the proportion of ethnic minorities living in Britain"
Apart from the fact that this is racist, it won't work because:
1. Very few people would want to leave even if bribed.
2. What would happen to people of mixed race?
3. Anyone who thinks it would stop with bribes and would not involve any coercion is dangerously niave.

* The removal of all illegal immigrants
Even those who face torture or death in their countries of origin?

* The repeal of all equality and anti-discrimination legislation, including measures aimed at employing people with disabilities.
This is fine as long as sexism and racism are fine and disabled people do not deserve work.

* Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union and the pursuit of protectionist economic measures.
Ecconomic disaster! We won't trade with anyone so they won't trade with us.

* Encouraging greater share ownership and worker co-operatives.
Wierd. This one seems ok! Might cut down the capital available to business though.

* Restricting foreign aid to the support of countries receiving "repatriated" members of ethnic minorities. Griffin argued against giving unconditional foreign aid, including disaster aid, claiming 'charity' is not an acceptable use of public funds.
The other half of this policy is plain daft, but I entirely agree. My taxes shoul be spent on training and arming young thugs rather than wasted saving peoples' lives.

* The introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals, and the introduction of capital punishment for paedophiles, terrorists and murderers.
Is an 18-year-old who has sex with his 15 year old girlfriend a peadophile? Death seems a bit harsh. Also, if I was a peadophile facing the death penalty, I would make sure I killed all my victims.

* The reintroduction of national service and the withdrawal of some civil rights from conscientious objectors, including the right to vote.
This would cost so much. I really like the idea of complaining to my neighbour about the branches from his tree overhanging my wall knowing that he is armed with an automatic rifle and trained to use it. Great! As for concientious objectors, they obviously don't deserve a vote. It is not as though they pay taxes.

* The requirement of all law-abiding adults completing national service to maintain a standard issue automatic rifle in their home.
Excellen idea. Hungerford anyone?

* A mandatory jail term for anyone assaulting an NHS worker.
What if the NHS worker gropes your daughter?

* The reunification of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland in a 'federation of the nations of the British Isles'
I love this one. The Irish really enjoyed being part of the UK and are desparate to rejoin us. It would only require a short invasion and a tiny civil war. The six counties are so peaceful and prosperous.

[Tribesman]

EA and Taffy , if you look at those wards that had Respect candidates with Muslim , Hindu , Sihk or any other names , you will notice that the conservative , lib-dem and labour candidates will also have those names .
Though not noticably so with the Christian Alliance candidates for some reason .~;)

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

EA and Taffy , if you look at those wards that had Respect candidates with Muslim , Hindu , Sihk or any other names , you will notice that the conservative , lib-dem and labour candidates will also have those names .
Though not noticably so with the Christian Alliance candidates for some reason .~;)

that's just sneaky. :laugh4:

So Respect only get support in Muslim areas and it's elected candidates are Muslims (except for the gorgeous George), Islamic party then?

[Fragony]

hmmmm....compared to a party that wants to treat ordinary decent people as scum just because of the colour of their skin , or where their ancestors came from .

If some major problems remain unspoken because of the colour of the skin, then moderate people will look for the closest thing at hand, if that is the BNP then the only ones to blame are the gutless politicians that have now gotten a beating in these elections. Wake up Neo.

[Duke of Gloucester]

If some major problems remain unspoken because of the colour of the skin, then moderate people will look for the closest thing at hand, if that is the BNP then the only ones to blame are the gutless politicians that have now gotten a beating in these elections.

If major problems are attributed to skin colour, then that is racism. If skin colour is a major problem, then that is racism too. I am just rehearsing the "politicians are to blame" argument for Nazi Germany. No. Sorry. It doesn't work. If you vote for those with evil views and imoral policies then you are responsible if those policies and worse are put in to practice.


gutless politicians that have now gotten a beating in these elections.

Fortunately things are not too bad. The BNP only won about a dozen seats over the whole country, about the same number as the Green party. They are hardly a major force in British politics, and will remain on the margins as long as we keep reminding people they are RACIST.

[Ja'chyra]

Call it whatever you like, but Frag has a point, as long as the major parties aren't listening to what the people want there will continue to be a niche for parties like the BNP.


If major problems are attributed to skin colour, then that is racism. If skin colour is a major problem, then that is racism too.


If some major problems remain unspoken because of the colour of the skin, then moderate people will look for the closest thing at hand

See the difference? Nice spin though.

The fact is that some of these issues are being glossed over because politicians don't want to be called racist, to the detriment of all, when it wouldn't be racist at all. As soon as people see white on one side and black on the other it automatically becomes a race issue instead of a people issue. I think everyone needs to take a step back and actually decide what the problem is, saying that it's the blacks/whites/yellows/purples fault is just as wrong as saying that the people who try to solve the problems are racist.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

The BNP only won about a dozen seats over the whole country, about the same number as the Green party.

Just to be anal, as it still doesn't make them a major force in politics...I thought they won thirty-odd seats.

[BDC]

There was a brilliant BNP interview from the BBC.

Interviewer: "So explain your 'one-meal, no choice, school food' policy."
BNP Spokesman: "So many young people have eating disorders, that it's only fair to them to make every schoolchild eat one proper meal a day."
I: "So absolutely no choice?"
B: "No."
I: "What about vegetarians?"
B: "They can have a choice obviously."

I was very impressed with their policies. They can go and rule their racist, poor, sexist white utopia somewhere, maybe a small volcanic island guaranteed to blow up/be submerged within a few years.

[lancelot]

Well lets see:

* The ending of immigration to the UK
Everyone supports immigration controls. Legal immigrants are allowed to come to the UK because we need their skills. In fact they are encouraged.

You take an optimistic view of immigration...and thats fine. However IMHO it seems that for every company that brings in an immigrant because of needed skills (like nurses) there are more than enough that bring in immigrants to pay them a shit wage to get out of paying a national resident a decent wage, thus only benefiting their own pockets.

Many nations have immigration policies that take the best and kick back the rest...I dont see why this would be such a terribel thing here.



* The removal of all illegal immigrants
Even those who face torture or death in their countries of origin?

Well if the recent debacle is anything to go by...they probably fled their countries because they deserved the death penalty. And anyway- they are illegal immigrants...they have entered the country in duplicious circumstances...from day one they are obviously showing that they have no particular respect for the nation they want to live in and no desire to abide by the rules...for me that means they are undesirables.



Also, if I was a peadophile facing the death penalty, I would make sure I killed all my victims.

I see why you take this line but I just cant agree with this...this is law-making to benefit the criminal.


* The reintroduction of national service and the withdrawal of some civil rights from conscientious objectors, including the right to vote.
This would cost so much. I really like the idea of complaining to my neighbour about the branches from his tree overhanging my wall knowing that he is armed with an automatic rifle and trained to use it. Great! As for concientious objectors, they obviously don't deserve a vote. It is not as though they pay taxes.

I agree that the whole rifle thing is a horrid idea (and pretty pointless too) but even though I dont particularly like the idea of national service (mainly because I couldnt be arsed)...in itself it isnt such a terrible thing to have to do....some nations still have it.

IIRC, I think every N. Korean is pretty good in a martial art. I wouldnt have minded being taught that for free...

And I firmly disagree that paying tax = a right to vote. Voting rights should be granted on an ability to pass a rudimentray politics class at school.

I cant manage a football team because I know dick about how to do it, therefore- if I dont know about politics, I dont get to vote.

[rory_20_uk]

There is this lovely myth that people are brought in to do jobs for a wage purely as the company is eeeevil. It never seems to be thought that perhaps the job / career is not economic at the salaries that the indiginous people in the country demand. For example nursing. Hard work, lots of chances to get abused verbally or physically and the pay isn't that good. In the UK there are not enough people to do the work (i.e. the ones who could do it are good enough to earn more elsewhere, and the dross that is left are not trusted to do it).

Tarrifs to try to keep out imports that use cheaper labour can be done, but doesn't work in the long term. Some jobs only support a very low wage as there are people elsewhere prepared to work for a lower wage.

But the above should be concerning economic migrants. Illegal immigrants should be got rid of, as they are breaking the laws. There are methods to work in the UK on a work permit. If you can't be bothered to get one, I doubt you're going to be wanted.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

They are hardly a major force in British politics, and will remain on the margins as long as we keep reminding people they are RACIST.

The ones that would take offence by that you allready lost to the BNP, how come? Being called a racist isn't what it used to be, it kind of lost it's edge. You can't make a moral appeal on these people when you aren't willing to listen to their genuine concerns. Look at the bright side, in 4 years this will all be over, and the other parties will have copied the BNP's most populist idea's and rave about how they invented the wheel, and nobody will have to worry about their dark-side experience points.