Illegal Immigrants in the U.S. [Archive]

Goalie

05-10-2006, 15:52

Still no "Gah" option. What's more, what should language skills have to do with whether or not you stay?

The big arguments against allowing for unfettered immigration from Mexico are:

-Depression of lower end wages
-Drain on social services infrastructure
-Lack of willingness to assimilate.

Your English language requirement only tangentially touches on the 3rd reason. There's plenty of people in MEChA that speak English, if only to say "This is our country now, Gringo!". That doesn't exactly strike me as somebody we should allow to stay while we deport his hardworking, industrious, loyal, yet non-English speaking cousin.

dang, sorry i forgot, can you edit polls?

Crazed Rabbit

05-10-2006, 17:45

As I said before:

Secure the border, then start deporting all the ones we can find. Enough whining about how it'd take a long time. Sure, it would. But it'd also get the message across that we will find you, thousands of miles from the border and maybe years later, and we will grab you and your illegal family and throw your sorry butt on the next prison bus to mexico.

Quick deportation and harsh punishment for hiring illegals will reduce the number trying to get in. Another amnesty and half-hearted enforcement of existing laws will not.

Also, require knowledge of English to enter, only give government services in English (none of this crap that gov't agencies have to have people who speak every single language in the world), only give ballots in English, etc.

Here's a good article from the perspective of someone who's father tried to assimilate, not demand the USA allow him:
My first-generation father: Come legally or stay home (http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/114685711295220.xml&coll=7)

MEDFORD -- The protesters waving signs in Portland, Eugene and Alba Park in Medford might look good to you. But for me, a second-generation Mexican, and my father, who came here legally from Mexico City, the protests aren't only disturbing -- they're insulting.

Papa came here during the 1940s on a work visa, eventually married, had two children and got his permanent visa. He became a U.S. citizen 14 years later.

He worked very hard to understand the English language -- to speak and write it -- and to learn this country's history so he could pass his test. He was so adamant about being an American he allowed only English to be spoken in his home. So my sister and I never learned Spanish, something I've come to regret.

Papa's English was so good he was put in charge of a lay-up crew at a mill here in Medford that manufactured plywood. He later be came a successful restaurant owner in Texas, which he ran until his retirement about 15 years ago.
...
I'm all for the United States being a culture of immigrants -- because we all are. But with the open borders we have I resent that illegal immigrants aren't coming to this country with the proper paperwork and striving to become U.S. citizens.

To me, they don't seem to care about our country -- they're just interested in economic gain. I know how hard my father worked to be an American. If the illegal immigrants really cared, they'd take the time and make the effort to come here legally. They'd want to be part of our culture and society.

Instead they're being disrespectful to legal immigrants -- and to this nation.

Crazed Rabbit

Devastatin Dave

05-10-2006, 17:47

Deport and keep them out BY ANY MEANS necessary .

Devastatin Dave

05-10-2006, 18:05

This is how it should be handled..
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IMMIGRATION_POSSE?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-05-10-08-01-37
Thank God there is SOMEONE in the government that's doing something about these CRIMINALS....

Xiahou

05-10-2006, 18:25

Another amnesty and half-hearted enforcement of existing laws will not.Unfortunately, Im betting that's what we'll get. :no:

master of the puppets

05-10-2006, 18:46

Riedquat

05-10-2006, 18:52

Question: Only the mexicians are considered illegal inmigrants? or only the mexicians ar considered criminals?

I voted, keep em. Of course I'm not citizen of the States, and I'm not mexician, but a couple of years ago I was in the desesperate situation to emigrate, legal or illegal to a country in the 1st world, not because I wish; because I need it. I never did it, but thousands of my countrymen did. Be considered a criminal for try to survive, to forge a future... is just wrong, thats my humble and latin opinion.

The land of oportunities (sp). (If you have the right biotype and speak english)

Xiahou

05-10-2006, 18:56

Question: Only the mexicians are considered illegal inmigrants? or only the mexicians ar considered criminals?No, they are just by far the most prevelant illegal immigrants.

I voted, keep em. Of course I'm not citizen of the States, and I'm not mexician, but a couple of years ago I was in the desesperate situation to emigrate, legal or illegal to a country in the 1st world, not because I wish; because I need it. I never did it, but thousands of my countrymen did. Be considered a criminal for try to survive, to forge a future... is just wrong, thats my humble and latin opinion.
Need, while being understandable, cannot be used as valid justification for illegal activity. I can understand why a hungry person would try to steal a loaf of bread- but that doesnt mean we should legalize it.

Idaho

05-10-2006, 18:57

Let them satay if they speak english?

That's a pretty niche group. I mean how many illegal english speaking immigrants do you get from Indonesia and Malasia who can make a good satay?

Taffy_is_a_Taff

05-10-2006, 18:57

Question: Only the mexicians are considered illegal inmigrants? or only the mexicians ar considered criminals?

All persons who are not legally resident (or visiting) are considered illegal immigrants. I am legal, I voted to deport those who aren't.

Idaho

05-10-2006, 19:27

No - it's all about not wanting some people. A nation built on immigration is now pulling the ladder up.

It's a running theme in US politics. The Irish, Italians, Jews, etc have all been targets of the anti-immigration theme over the centuries.

(Edited language - Beirut)

Devastatin Dave

05-10-2006, 19:31

No - it's all about not wanting ******* in.
Boy I just went blind rolling my eyes on that comment....:dizzy2:

(Qouted language - Beirut)

Don Corleone

05-10-2006, 19:37

Helpful as ever, Idaho. Has nothing to do with depressing wages or bankrupting hospitals. Nope, as usual, those ******* Americans are just being a bunch of racists again. I guess when you hate America, the answers are always these easy. As they say, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

(Only the stars please - Beirut)

Goalie

05-10-2006, 19:44

No - it's all about not wanting ********** in. A nation built on immigration is now pulling the ladder up.

It's a running theme in US politics. The Irish, Italians, Jews, etc have all been targets of the anti-immigration theme over the centuries.

yes, the american indians are now saying 'what goes around comes around"
and dont forget about the Chinese and japanese, they were pretty heavily discriminated against during the late 1800s and 1900s, for a time they were even banned from immigrating.

(Qouted language - Beirut)

Ice

05-10-2006, 20:06

Some of you people truly scare me. They should be deported and put on a list to get citizenship the normal and proper way. If the only two options are killing them or letting them get away, let them get away. These aren't hardcore criminals we are after, most are just seeking a better life.

Idaho

05-10-2006, 20:06

Helpful as ever, Idaho. Has nothing to do with depressing wages or bankrupting hospitals. Nope, as usual, those ****** Americans are just being a bunch of racists again. I guess when you hate America, the answers are always these easy. As they say, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

If you really cared about depressed wages and bankrupt hospitals you go after the real causes of said problems rather than getting all het up about immigrants.

(Qouted language - Beirut)

Don Corleone

05-10-2006, 20:11

If you really cared about depressed wages and bankrupt hospitals you go after the real causes of said problems rather than getting all het up about immigrants.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have an honest-to-goodness mindreader. Not only does Idaho know how to plan global economies and solve all the world's problems, he knows what I 'really' think about things, even more so than I do myself. Wow Idaho, how do you and your ego both fit out the door in the morning?

Devastatin Dave

05-10-2006, 20:15

(No personal attacks - Beirut)

Taffy_is_a_Taff

05-10-2006, 20:27

No - it's all about not wanting the darkies in. A nation built on immigration is now pulling the ladder up.

utter drivel

immigration to the U.S. is the highest it has been for a long time, despite a lack of European immigrants..

Proletariat

05-10-2006, 21:29

If you really cared about depressed wages and bankrupt hospitals you go after the real causes of said problems rather than getting all het up about immigrants.

Did you read anything in the original thread?

:book:

Proletariat

05-10-2006, 21:31

It's a running theme in US politics. The Irish, Italians, Jews, etc have all been targets of the anti-immigration theme over the centuries.

ROFL.

Ever heard from a second generation American from one of those groups? If you had, (which I highly doubt), you'd hear some of the greatest outrage since their family members actually came here by playing by the rules.

Beirut

05-10-2006, 21:51

Gentlemen,

WP have gone out and more will follow along with a thread locking if good manners are not adhered to.

Thank you.

Devastatin Dave

05-10-2006, 22:43

So Idaho can post that Americans are racist trying to keep "darkie" out, and I get a warning for calling him on it. LOL, good to see you back "moderating" the backroom again Beirut...
:laugh4:

Goalie

05-10-2006, 22:45

Gentlemen,

WP have gone out and more will follow along with a thread locking if good manners are not adhered to.

Thank you.

Learned that one the hard way

Crazed Rabbit

05-10-2006, 22:59

Idaho, I refer you to Post#4, my own, wherein I link to an article detailing how one second generation immigrant feels about the illegals now demanding rights.

And know that those against illegal immigration are not, no matter what many say, automatically anti-all-immigration racist nativists.

Crazed Rabbit

Redleg

05-10-2006, 22:59

No - it's all about not wanting the darkies in. A nation built on immigration is now pulling the ladder up.

Does someone not live in reality about the issue concerning illegal immigrantion as it regards the United States?

Come to the United States and visit the border some time, to include the Mexican side of the border, then maybe you might begin to understand the nature of the debate in the United States. However if you truely believe this statement. There is no reason for futher discourse on the issue.

It's a running theme in US politics. The Irish, Italians, Jews, etc have all been targets of the anti-immigration theme over the centuries.

They have been targets of the anti-immigrantion emotion by the citizens, none of these groups have presented the problem that the southern border not presents. Most of these groups immigrated to the United States under the quota system of the 1800 and early 1900's. In other words most of them followed the rules as it regards immigrantions.

If you can not tell the difference between the two types of immigrantion and the issues involved - then once again there is no futher reason for discourse.

If you really cared about depressed wages and bankrupt hospitals you go after the real causes of said problems rather than getting all het up about immigrants.

Now the real problem is that the Federal Government and many state governments refuse to enforce the current laws on immigrantion. One of those laws requires that if an illegal immigrant is discovered that the INS is contacted. Care to guess how many state and city governments actually do this.

Then there is the small business owners who often hire the illegal immigrants because of the fact that its cheaper labor. Many construction (housing) outfits also hire illegal immigrants as workers, and the Federal, state, and city officials who inspect housing sites refuse to follow-up on the current laws alreadly enforced.

So in essence Idaho there are several concurrent and multifactet (SP) issues concerning illegal immigrantion to the United States.

Lets point out several of them.

(1) The United States is seen as the land of opporunity for many.
(2) THe Mexican government is still corrupt and does not re-invest into the infrastructure of their own nation.
(3) The Mexico/United States Border is not adequated manned to enforce the current immigrantion laws and to prevent illegal crossings.
(4) The Mexican government has activitily provided aids to those who wish to attempt to cross parts of the border that are not patrol or adequately checked because its one of the most dangerous areas to attempt a foot crossing. (Can't blame the Mexican government for this, because it shows a concern for safety, but one must understand that it does assist in illegal crossings.)
(5) The United States politicans often pander to different groups concerning immigrantion to the point that laws and agencies contradict each other.
(6) the Current immigrantion laws are not enforced for both the immigrant and the employeers of illegal immigrants

There are several other issues involved - but before one can have a reason to discuss them, one should show that they understand the nature of the problem other then a simple and rather overgeneralization sterotype answer that you have provide.

Louis VI the Fat

05-10-2006, 23:01

The rest of the world should show some restraint before criticizing the stereotypical trigger-happy racist Americans. Whereas those loudmouth Americans talk about shooting and deporting illegal immigrants, the rest of the world actually does it.

Australian navy opens fire on refugee boat
(http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/oct2001/refu-o13.shtml)
If Europe is so much better, why does the death toll of Fortress Europe (http://www.ncadc.org.uk/archives/filed%20newszines/oldnewszines/news24/8dead.html)number in the thousands annually?

And most rich non-western countries barely allow migration in the first place. In 2001, Japan granted permanent resident status to a whopping, hold on tight, twenty-six asylum-seekers. Up from an average close to one person annually in the nineties.

edit:should make sense now.

Major Robert Dump

05-10-2006, 23:19

Hispanics accounted for 49% of the US population growth from 2004-2005, most of this was from hospital births, not from immigration, so the number may actually be higher since all immigrants aren't accounted for. Asian population increase is in second place, with most of this being from legal immigration of adults and children rather than in-country births. No one is complaining about the Asian immigrants, anyoen care to guess why?

Strike For The South

05-10-2006, 23:24

BHCWarman88

05-10-2006, 23:57

i said if they speak english let um stay, in reality my ideas a little more exact, if they've been here 10+ years let um stay, if they know english but have also assimilated into communities and brought themselves above "wetback worker" status, let um stay. anything else deport and make sure they never come back.

um no. um tey are Illerals. um if they are here Illeagly,um,they should be deported,or in my case,shot if they try to jump um fence um.

um

Devastatin Dave

05-11-2006, 03:52

No one is complaining about the Asian immigrants, anyoen care to guess why?
Because Asian women are hotter and don't smell like refried beans? Maybe I'm off a little...

Strike For The South

05-11-2006, 03:57

Goalie

05-11-2006, 04:03

um no. um tey are Illerals. um if they are here Illeagly,um,they should be deported,or in my case,shot if they try to jump um fence um.

um

great idea, lets build a wall across the border with machine gun nests every 100 yards.

Alexander the Pretty Good

05-11-2006, 04:33

um no. um tey are Illerals. um if they are here Illeagly,um,they should be deported,or in my case,shot if they try to jump um fence um.

um

My eyes are bleeding.

Additionally you can't just shoot them. Try to stop them, yes. Deport those we catch, yes. Shoot them, no.

One of the big problems we face is security. Only the good Lord has kept somebody from Al Queida (awful spelling, my apologies) from crossing the border and doing something nasty.

Unless their just waiting.

Ja'chyra

05-11-2006, 11:26

Idaho

05-11-2006, 12:16

um no. um tey are Illerals. um if they are here Illeagly,um,they should be deported,or in my case,shot if they try to jump um fence um.

um

:laugh4: What is this car crash all about?

Louis VI the Fat

05-11-2006, 12:46

It says that he should be shot if he tries to jump a fence.

Riedquat

05-11-2006, 19:36

Need, while being understandable, cannot be used as valid justification for illegal activity. I can understand why a hungry person would try to steal a loaf of bread- but that doesnt mean we should legalize it.

Our law definitions can be a little diferent but there is a cultural sea between an illegal action and a criminal one, don't you think?

Still, if the assertion of "all illegal inmigrants are criminals" could be true, sometimes is better be considered a criminal in other country than being killed in your own land.

Taffy_is_a_Taff

05-11-2006, 19:39

Our law definitions can be a little diferent but there is a cultural sea between an illegal action and a criminal one, don't you think?

Only in legalese.
In general English a they are the same thing.

Don Corleone

05-11-2006, 19:44

Criminalizing illegal immigrants would be a foolish mistake. I'm all for tighter border security and deporting illegal aliens when found. But at the end of the day, take away the demand for their labor and the problem will solve itself. If you want to punish somebody, make it prohibitively punitive to even consider hiring them, like losing your license to practice busines, etc. Criminalizing the immigrants themselves turns a somewhat peaceful law-breaker into a somewhat violent one. If he thinks he's going to be dropped into an American prison with Bubba as a new wife, he's going to be much, much more likely to put up a fight. Not to mention, what do we do with the not so uncommon case where whole families cross? Throw the kids in Juvy?

No, we to establish fines the legal equivalent of a colonostomy for anybody that's caught hiring them, knowingly or unknowingly. The problem will solve itself from there on out.

Seamus Fermanagh

05-11-2006, 20:00

Don C:

Your wisdom is once again displayed.

Market forces dictate that if there exists a market for X, someone will find a way to supply it.

In the CCCP, efficient service was often unavailable (like plumbing repair for your "free" apartment) -- unless you dealt with the black market in which case you got the stuff pronto (though at a premium).

If employers in the USA are less willing to hire illegals, fewer of them will make the trip.

If the USA would curb its apetite for illegal drugs, crime would plummet.

Don Corleone

05-11-2006, 20:05

I think Seamus and I should form a mutal-appreciation-society. Absolutely spot on with the drug question Seamus.

Joker85

05-11-2006, 20:23

No, we to establish fines the legal equivalent of a colonostomy for anybody that's caught hiring them, knowingly or unknowingly. The problem will solve itself from there on out.

I don't believe we have to do only one thing or another. I definitely would support that, even making the ceos of corporations who knowingly hire illegals subject to jail time as well as those fines.

But I also want to see if not the guard at the border a massive increase in funding and personel of the BP and a program that requires all current illegals who have been here 5 years or longer to learn english, pay a fine, and reapply for citizenship or be deported and subsiquently jailed all future times they are found in the country after their initial deportation.

ZombieFriedNuts

05-12-2006, 18:53

I’m English so correct me if I’m wrong, isn’t it the illegal immigrants that take the crap poorly paid jobs that are going.
Personally I would stop worrying about immigrants and try and do something about the gun toting maniacs in the country.
Or you could try to secure the Mexican border and have good practice for Iraqi insurgents.

Don Corleone

05-12-2006, 19:19

That is a fallacious argument.

In a supply & demand economy, any job's salary will rise to an optimal price target where the supply and demand curves intersect. Importing cheap labor artificially decreases wages and forces a lower standard of living for everyone. Example:

I am a 22 year old with no skills. I want to work in construction. But, because I live here and have to pay taxes, pay my rent, pay for my own health care, etc, I need to make $15/hour. Now, the construction company I work for doesn't want to pay me that much. They offer me $13. I hold out. They then hire somebody who's willing to work for $11. How? Because he:
-pays no taxes
-uses the health care system knowing that there's no credit report on him to trash
-Buys many of his larger ticket items in Mexico, then has them sent here.

Most importantly, he sends the proceeds of his paycheck home to Mexico. So, if the company had hired me, the money would have been spent by me on taxes and other American industries. Instead, no taxes are paid, government provided services instead of private ones are used, and the currency itself is transmitted out of our economy to Mexico, a net reduction in the country's GDP.

Goalie

05-12-2006, 19:29

get some skills and you wont have to worry about it

Alexander the Pretty Good

05-12-2006, 19:37

get some skills and you wont have to worry about it

Just fight a boss and level up. :idea2:

And that is just so ridiculously naive, I had to chuckle. The issue goes beyond the individual, as Don pointed out, and it affects the whole US economy.

Redleg

05-12-2006, 20:04

I’m English so correct me if I’m wrong, isn’t it the illegal immigrants that take the crap poorly paid jobs that are going.

You are only address one part of the issue. Any conservation around just employment of illegals misses the major issues concerning the crisis.

Personally I would stop worrying about immigrants and try and do something about the gun toting maniacs in the country.

Most are not worried about immigrants and immigrantion when it follows the proscribed law. Its the illegal immigrantion and the non-enforcement of the current law by the authorities which has made it the crisis that it is.

And this arguement is not about "gun toting" maniacs - or maybe it is, try looking at the crime statistics of some of the border cities. You will get a major dose of reality if you attempt that approach versus the fallacious arguement you have taken here.

Or you could try to secure the Mexican border and have good practice for Iraqi insurgents.

:no:

Don Corleone

05-12-2006, 21:36

get some skills and you wont have to worry about it

What skill can you possess that would be immune to this wage deflation scheme?

Chemical, civil electrical engineering? Nope, China and India has guys with masters degrees that will work for 20% what the going rate is.

Banking? Nope. All moving to China, Singapore and Taiwan.

Business? What makes a stockbroker or an analyst in New York City any better than the ones in Shanghai or Singapore? Every year more and more of financial services moves overseas.

Insurance? Ditto.

Medicine? Nope. India, Middle East.

Law? Believe it or not, even here, there are people with training in law that perform a lot of the research for law firms overseas, but of all professions, this is the one that's probably the most impervious.

At the end of the day, there's nothing that can't be outsourced, and in fact, already IS being outsourced. The illegal immigrant question is just a variation of this, bringing the outsourcing to you.

Something tells me you're not a Carnegie or a Rockefeller or a Kennedy, so you probably can't rely on your family's inherent wealth. Truthfully, neither can I.

It's a viscious cycle, that taken to it's natural conclusion, the way it's already heading mind you, has vast quantities of Americans unemployed.

Alexanderofmacedon

05-12-2006, 22:41

Funny, I think pretty soon, the border problem will be in the other direction. Now that small amounts of drugs are legal, many people will want to move there, for at least the summer!:laugh4:

Goalie

05-13-2006, 02:28

What skill can you possess that would be immune to this wage deflation scheme?

Chemical, civil electrical engineering? Nope, China and India has guys with masters degrees that will work for 20% what the going rate is.

Banking? Nope. All moving to China, Singapore and Taiwan.

Business? What makes a stockbroker or an analyst in New York City any better than the ones in Shanghai or Singapore? Every year more and more of financial services moves overseas.

Insurance? Ditto.

Medicine? Nope. India, Middle East.

Law? Believe it or not, even here, there are people with training in law that perform a lot of the research for law firms overseas, but of all professions, this is the one that's probably the most impervious.

At the end of the day, there's nothing that can't be outsourced, and in fact, already IS being outsourced. The illegal immigrant question is just a variation of this, bringing the outsourcing to you.

Something tells me you're not a Carnegie or a Rockefeller or a Kennedy, so you probably can't rely on your family's inherent wealth. Truthfully, neither can I.

It's a viscious cycle, that taken to it's natural conclusion, the way it's already heading mind you, has vast quantities of Americans unemployed.

Join the army, solid food, pay, and ya get to see the world.

Atilius

05-13-2006, 06:58

Personally I would stop worrying about immigrants and try and do something about the gun toting maniacs in the country.

Zombie: Along the Mexican border, the "gun toting maniacs" I'm worried about are corrupt Mexican soldiers escorting drug dealers (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11226144/)into the US.

As for immigration, the pace has been so rapid of late that the country is having trouble assimilating them. Twenty percent of all Americans are, or are the descendents of, immigrants who have arrived since 1960. Historically, the children of immigrants achieved higher levels of education and income than their parents. For Hispanics, this trend has weakened significantly.

I would prefer lower levels of immigration until these problems are alleviated, but I would be satisfied if we would simply make an honest effort to prevent illegal immigration. I'm still stunned that the governor of the State of California had to veto a bill a few years ago which would have allowed illegal immigrants to get a driver's license (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45651-2004Sep23.html).

PanzerJaeger

05-13-2006, 09:34

Its time to take out the trash. Deport them.

Major Robert Dump

05-13-2006, 10:49

MRD this thread isnt about birth rates in the USA. I would like to see some stizats. An educated mexican or asian is much diffrent from illegals. Many of these illegal mexicans tend to be more "fertile" and have many kids whom grow up in poverty aernt tuaght proper english or given tools to sucseed thereby just starting the process all over agian

I'm not gonna bother witha link because its from the 2004-5 Census stats released to the public yesterday, easy enough to find.

The reason I point out the birthrates is soley to emphasize that we are importing vast amounts of poverty by not enforcing immigration law. The Asian population increase is due to legal, documented IMMIGRATION, not someone hopping a fence and then popping out 4 kids so the whole family can become citizens. I do realize that latinos have a tendency for large families with lots of babies, but TBH it only emphasizes the importing povert point more.

Not that this matters tho the situation at hand, but I have an estranged stepfather who is a German immigrant who never declared citizenship the entire 25 years he's been in the US. 6 months shy of age 65 he declared citizenship, and now he receives social security despite never paying into social security. Anyone else see a problem with this?

Strike For The South

05-14-2006, 00:46

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Then there is this absoulte gem

Dear President Bush:
I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.
I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.
So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:
1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don’t enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.
However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.
Thank you so much for your kind help.
Sincerely,
David M. Bresnahanhttp://www.americanpatrol.com/

The hammer will fall one day. When this problem comes to a head

rory_20_uk

05-14-2006, 13:25

They need to be deported as they are illegal. There's not "a bit" illegal, or "some illegal".

That there needs to be a complete reworking of work permits is a completely seperate matter.

For a country that annexed about 1/3 of what was Mexico to complain about Spanish being spoken or hespanics is very amusing.

~:smoking:

Taffy_is_a_Taff

05-14-2006, 13:34

For a country that annexed about 1/3 of what was Mexico to complain about Spanish being spoken or hespanics is very amusing.

~:smoking:

About the American annexation, the war that caused it was started by Mexico; those parts annexed had only been part of an independent Mexico for a couple of decades;
the peace treaty renounces any rights that Mexico may feel they have to reclaim that land.

And part of the reason why that land and not the whole of Mexico was taken...probably had something to do with the large American population in that area (i.e. non hispanics Americans, to clarify). The land was also sparsely inhabited for the most part, so not many of anyone Englsih, Spanish or "Injun" speaking..

Tachikaze

05-14-2006, 16:39

Does someone not live in reality about the issue concerning illegal immigrantion as it regards the United States?

Come to the United States and visit the border some time, to include the Mexican side of the border, then maybe you might begin to understand the nature of the debate in the United States. However if you truely believe this statement. There is no reason for futher discourse on the issue.

I have lived in San Diego, in the heart of the illegal immigrant flow from Mexico, all my life. I am far from ignorant of the situation. They are a major part of what keeps this city moving. Why? Because it creates a near-slave economy. Lower wages paid to illegal immigrants means greater profits for our tourist industry.

Anyway, I agree with Idaho's main point, if not maybe the degree. The US laws on immigration have been quite liberal, compared to other large immigrant nations like Australia. I have to admit that. I also say, though, that Idaho is right in that race is a key issue here.

He is also right about the resistence people have had towards immigrants all along. Those same people who were the targets of early anti-immigrant attacks became the attackers later.

I think fighting illegal immigration causes more problems and is more expensive than facing reality and accepting it.

Tachikaze

05-14-2006, 16:53

The language requirement is a joke. What level of English must these people have? How will you test all of them? What if their reading skills are high, but their conversational skills low, or vice-versa? Shall we keep out the deaf, who can't speak English? How can Asians and Africans compete with Europeans and Latin Americans, who natively speak languages closer to English?

scooter_the_shooter

05-14-2006, 17:09

We need to toughen up!

Repeal the silly laws that say police can't ask some one if they have a green card.

Round up all the illegals waiting outside at the hard ware store trying to get a job.

Raid fields where migrant workers are so we can get more of them.

Offer rewards for turing illegals in.

Refuse service for them at hospitals unless it is life threatening.

Increase border patrol.

Give minute men and ranch rescue the authority to detain illegals.

Shut down businesses that hire them and put the owner in jail for a year. And fine them 10,000 dollars.

rory_20_uk

05-14-2006, 18:13

And I'd say:

Decrease time to get a work permit.
Facilitate migrant workers geting into and out of the country.
Educate brain dead redneck hicks that stopping people doing the work that Americans refuse to do isn't a good idea.

~:smoking:

Taffy_is_a_Taff

05-14-2006, 18:31

And I'd say:

Educate brain dead redneck hicks that stopping people doing the work that Americans refuse to do isn't a good idea.

~:smoking:

That's so true, I can't get over the amount of white Mexicans I've seen doing those jobs lately, I've seen a few black ones too.
Strange considering Mexico is about 85%+ mixed race Indian/European.
Oh wait, maybe it was Americans doing those jobs that they allegedly won't do anymore(construction, landscaping, the usual suspects).

Redleg

05-14-2006, 18:53

I have lived in San Diego, in the heart of the illegal immigrant flow from Mexico, all my life. I am far from ignorant of the situation. They are a major part of what keeps this city moving. Why? Because it creates a near-slave economy. Lower wages paid to illegal immigrants means greater profits for our tourist industry.

Anyway, I agree with Idaho's main point, if not maybe the degree. The US laws on immigration have been quite liberal, compared to other large immigrant nations like Australia. I have to admit that. I also say, though, that Idaho is right in that race is a key issue here.

He is also right about the resistence people have had towards immigrants all along. Those same people who were the targets of early anti-immigrant attacks became the attackers later.

I think fighting illegal immigration causes more problems and is more expensive than facing reality and accepting it.

If you talk with legal Mexican immigrants like I have - you will discover they also have some problems with the illegal immigrantion. Or the Legal immigrants from Africa. Or the legal immigrants from Panama. Just pick a country of non-white skinned immigrants and ask them....

So the darkie comment is uncalled for - and shows the own racist views of not only Idaho but it seems yourself.

Avicenna

05-14-2006, 19:35

Doesn't the darkie comment deserve a WP? Also, the Mexicans should be just natives, with limited European influence in their genes.

Anyway, if you have no illegals and everyone having higher pay, it just means that more people will be content to work for lower jobs. Why? Because there's no fear of not getting a job, so less of an incentive to get some kind of guarantee that you will not be affected by the illegal problem. Also, it means that the already very expensive american goods will get even more expensive, so that less people will buy them overseas, and also meaning less profit for America. It also means everything at America will be more expensive as well, and leading to, as Tachikaze pointed out, less tourists and again less profits. So it's not as if it doesn't have its advantages. Anyway, if you have an illegal who comes in, turns out to be a genius and benefits America greatly, which is perfectly possible, it would be another good thing.

America should be pleased with the extra revenue they bring.

Devastatin Dave

05-15-2006, 00:15

Doesn't the darkie comment deserve a WP? .
It did, I got the points... :no:

Beirut

05-15-2006, 00:43

Redleg

05-15-2006, 03:56

I stand ready to be corrected, but the "darkie" comment was a (nasty) tongue in cheek shot at US immigration policy, not at the United States per say.

You're allowed to say, for example, that the US has stupid immigration laws, but not that Americans are stupid. I think that is the case here. A country's policy was attacked, not the country.

If anyone wishes to discuss this, please PM myself or another mod or take it up in the Watchtower. Here, however, it is done.

Just as long as you allow those who don't use the term to point out the racist nature of the term and those that desire to use it, regardless of wether it is direct at a government or an individual. Especially in the matter that Idaho used the term and the matter in which it was followed up by Tach. The issue is not about the skin color of the individual but the immigrantion status of those individuals. Illegal is illegal regardless of the skin color.

Darkie is a racist term no matter where it is direct at. You as a moderator don't like the term retard - it exactly the same type of comment.

Seamus Fermanagh

05-15-2006, 04:25

Most Americans support legal immigration, regardless of the race of the new American-to-be. Legal immigration is a surprisingly slow and somewhat frustrating process. Whatever reasonable steps can be made to improve this should be considered.

Most Americans deplore the entry of illegal aliens into our country and are especially chagrined by the consumption of government resources -- our taxes -- by those who do not contribute to the system. Illegals from Poland or Ireland are no less in the wrong, and most Americans aren't any happier about this than they are with illegals from Mexico (though these other groups do seem to be slipping under the radar more -- which may point to some unintentional yet institutionalized racism).

Most Americans are not offended by those who are seeking citizenship and get fed up with waiting -- they are in the wrong and should not be allowed to circumvent the system, but it is hard to blame someone for seeking the honor of citizenship that you hold. Far too many of those crossing our Southern border do not seek citizenship. They seek money to send home to help their families. They do not care about becoming citizens, only about building their own nest egg with which to return home. On a personal level this is quite understandable, but it is interesting to note that Mexican law is quite specific -- and fairly consistent in applying -- laws that would and do deny Americans the right to "return the favor."

The only possible "legitimate" response is to deport them (though I freely admit the impracticability of such a response).

First:

Close the Border, federalizing the Guards as necessary to support Border Patrol efforts. Legal trade and crossings are no problem, but the rest must cease.

Second:

Allow police to aggressively respond to criminal elements among these illegal aliens, deporting them immediately for non-violent crimes and immediately after completion of sentence for violent offenders.

Third:

Improve the Guest Worker and Legitimate Immigration process. Those who seek citizenship -- both its privileges AND its responsibilities -- should be afforded the option as conveniently as practicable. Those who seek work, should get it at a competitive wage, pay the applicable taxes, and be free to come and go without fear.

Fourth:

Establish one national language and require all federal government business to be conducted in that language. Assimilation is aided by such a standard. While I'd prefer English, I'd settle for Spanish or Urdu -- but all should be held to the same requirement.

Devastatin Dave

05-15-2006, 04:29

If it was 12 million "cracker-ass" Europeans here illegally I would feel the same. But its always easier to call someone a racist than give a thought out defense for criminals like the 12 million illegals that are presently illegally within the United States. In Beirut's defense we all have our biases and I or anyone else should not expect him to make an attempt to be fair handed when it comes to discussions, it just an unfortunate circumstance that he along with other mods have the discretion to hold those of opposing views more accountable than those of similar views. But let's stay on topic about immigration and not on the lack of unbias moderation. :2thumbsup:

Papewaio

05-15-2006, 06:03

The US laws on immigration have been quite liberal, compared to other large immigrant nations like Australia.

Are we talking about past or present laws?

In the past the travesty of the white australia laws it was a very nasty way of deciding who can immigrate here. However those laws are over a generation old... in an era akin to the USA's civil rights movement.

Nowadays 23.6% of the Australian population is legal immigrants... while the USA according to NationMaster (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/imm_for_pop)has a foreign born population of 10.4%... so wouldn't that make US laws far less liberal then perceived? :laugh4:

Tachikaze

05-15-2006, 18:17

If you talk with legal Mexican immigrants like I have - you will discover they also have some problems with the illegal immigrantion. Or the Legal immigrants from Africa. Or the legal immigrants from Panama. Just pick a country of non-white skinned immigrants and ask them....

So the darkie comment is uncalled for - and shows the own racist views of not only Idaho but it seems yourself.
How does thinking immigration policies are racist make me a racist?

Between San Diego and Los Angeles, there is an immigration checkpoint. The purpose of this facility is to prevent illegal immigrants from continuing north out of bordertown San Diego to the rest of the Western US.

The checkpoint spreads across the northbound lanes of Interstate 5 (and Interstate 15 a little inland). There, immigration officers stand at the gates and stare into the windshields of all of the cars and trucks going north.

What are they looking for?

I would say they can determine up to four things: gender, possibly age, whether someone is wearing sunglasses, and race. These are the possible criteria for stopping that car on suspicion that someone "illegal" is in it.

Now, of those criteria, I doubt they use gender, age, or apparel, for reasons that are all too obvious. That leaves race.

Redleg

05-15-2006, 19:11

How does thinking immigration policies are racist make me a racist?

You can answer that question yourself. But here is a hint. Illegal immigration is illegal immigration regardless of how one wishes to view it.

THe current immigrantion laws should be enforced - since they are not enforce the lack of enforcment is indeed a racist viewpoint - and not the one that you think it is.

You advocate the non-enforcement of the law based solely upon that individuals skin color.

Between San Diego and Los Angeles, there is an immigration checkpoint. The purpose of this facility is to prevent illegal immigrants from continuing north out of bordertown San Diego to the rest of the Western US.

The checkpoint spreads across the northbound lanes of Interstate 5 (and Interstate 15 a little inland). There, immigration officers stand at the gates and stare into the windshields of all of the cars and trucks going north.

It is similiar on Interstate 35 coming out of Brownsville, Laredo, El Paso, and about a dozen other sites in Texas.

What are they looking for?

Multiple things - ever notice the dogs?

I would say they can determine up to four things: gender, possibly age, whether someone is wearing sunglasses, and race. These are the possible criteria for stopping that car on suspicion that someone "illegal" is in it.

Now, of those criteria, I doubt they use gender, age, or apparel, for reasons that are all too obvious. That leaves race.

They are looking at documentation, among other things. Legal immigrants have the necessary visa's....

I have crossed the border in the last 5 years. Guess what they asked me for on the way back across? And my skin is white....

(Personal attacks edited - Beirut)

Devastatin Dave

05-15-2006, 19:24

So yes indeed Tachikaze you are indeed a racist. You advocate the non-enforcement of the law based solely upon that individuals skin color.
.
Be careful , certain Mods are taking points for calling a spade a spade, especially if your political leanings aren't in line with theirs. Of course this only applies to conservatives, all the liberals and leftits out there are still free to call conservatives racists, "commies", and whatever they want without concequence. Same old same old in the Backroom you know. Never thought I'd say this but I wish Soly would come back soon. Atleast he would just ask you to edit your post, not totally #### you like the ********************* does with the points. Oh, did I do another personal attack? Ooopsie, too bad I can't edit.

(Yep, too bad indeed. Personal attacks edited - Beirut)

PROUD INFIDEL!!!

Redleg

05-15-2006, 19:56

Be careful , certain Mods are taking points for calling a spade a spade, especially if your political leanings aren't in line with theirs. Of course this only applies to conservatives, all the liberals and leftits out there are still free to call conservatives racists, "commies", and whatever they want without concequence. Same old same old in the Backroom you know. Never thought I'd say this but I wish Soly would come back soon. Atleast he would just ask you to edit your post, not totally #### you like the Hatchet Man and Goose Stepper does with the points. Oh, did I do another personal attack? Ooopsie, too bad I can't edit.

Well I will gladly take a warning point for answering Tachikaze question.

Anyone who advocates non-enforcement of a law that is not based upon race because of an individual's skin color is indeed a racist.

That and they don't know what the current law states, only what they believe it states

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/index.htm

Oh one would be surprised to discover what nation gets the most worker visa's and immigration slots into the United States.

(Edit: Then add into the equation of the failure of that nation in re-investing monies into its infrastructure versus lining the pockets of its politians - then you begin to get the scope of the issue.)

To bad those that think that the current immigrantion policies are about "race" don't really know what they are talking about.

Major Robert Dump

05-15-2006, 20:21

I don't think expecting residents to learn English is unreasonable, as it helps them and the government providing for them.

It's rather amusing that people who are English/Spanish bilingual have a huge advantage in the job market over people who arent bilingual or are, for example, English/French bilingual. "Bilingual preferred" is a common thing in job adverts, and we al know it realy means Spanish bilingual. High Schools and colleges should stop teaching the other languages to fulfill the foreign language requirement that most scholols have, since it does virtually no good to learn anything other than Spanish in the US market.

Tachikaze

05-15-2006, 23:37

You can answer that question yourself. But here is a hint. Illegal immigration is illegal immigration regardless of how one wishes to view it. To call the advocation of enforcement of the current laws as desiring to keep out the "darkie" is show how racist your own views are.

THe current immigrantion laws should be enforced - since they are not enforce the lack of enforcment is indeed a racist viewpoint - and not the one that you think it is.

So yes indeed Tachikaze you are indeed a racist. You advocate the non-enforcement of the law based solely upon that individuals skin color.

It is similiar on Interstate 35 coming out of Brownsville, Laredo, El Paso, and about a dozen other sites in Texas.

Multiple things - ever notice the dogs?

They are looking at documentation, among other things. Legal immigrants have the necessary visa's....

I have crossed the border in the last 5 years. Guess what they asked me for on the way back across? And my skin is white....

Your racism is showing once again, to bad that you don't recongize it for what it is.
You're not even trying to understand my posts. I'm sure English is your first language, but none of this is related to anything I actually wrote. I would explain them to you, but you don't seem to be interested in my real points. So, why do you take the time to write anything?

Redleg

05-15-2006, 23:39

You're not even trying to understand my posts. I'm sure English is your first language, but none of this is related to anything I actually wrote. I would explain them to you, but you don't seem to be interested in my real points. So, why do you take the time to write anything?

Oh you have a real point, it seems you lost it when you accused the current immigrantion policy as being racist.

Care to guess which nation has the highest number of visas, and has the highest quota of all nations as it relates to immigrants that are allowed into the United States each year legally?

If you know the answer to that question - you will figure out just how wrong your statement was.
(edit: to remover the word racist. The statement was wrong and contains a racist based word however)

PS: anyone that advocates the non-enforcement of the current immigrantion laws based upon the individuals skin color is indeed a racist.. Your using race as a discriminator to the enforcement of the law.

Strike For The South

05-15-2006, 23:41

Oh you have a real point, it seems you lost it when you accused the current immigrantion policy as being racist.

Care to guess which nation has the highest number of visas, and has the highest quota of all nations as it relates to immigrants that are allowed into the United States each year legally?

If you know the answer to that question - you will figure out just how wrong your racist statement is.

:idea2: MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO:idea2:

Redleg

05-15-2006, 23:49

:idea2: MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO MEXICO:idea2:

Now maybe you could point out to Tachikaze the other 5 nations that have high quota's for both visa's and immigrantion into the United States.

Or if we really want to make him work for it - point him in the general direction.....

And I won't even mention the family immigrantion aspect to parts of the immigrantion law. Since I agree completely with the way the law is used.

Strike For The South

05-16-2006, 00:02

Mexico
India
China
Phillipines
Cuba

The nearest Euro country comes in at # 10 The Ukraine followed by the Uk and Poland http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/statistics/publications/USLegalPermEst_5.pdf:juggle2:

It seems the US loves "Darkie" Tachi

BHCWarman88

05-16-2006, 00:15

We should Deport them.. I hate Them. They say they Americans?? that's bull.. They are not Amercians,and they will never be in my Eyes unless they come into America the Legal Way. They should go back to Mexico and work for 50 cents a hour if they can't come to this COuntry the Legal way so they can work for 5.15 a hour..

Beirut

05-16-2006, 00:15

Gentlemen,

Please refrain, regardless of your emotions, from calling other members racists. Calling a government's policy racist is one thing, calling an individual member a racist is a whole other ballgame and will bring instant WP.

Also, anyone who calls any mod a "goose stepper" (that's a Nazi for those who don't read history) again is going to get the insta-ban.

Papewaio

05-16-2006, 00:36

Redleg

05-16-2006, 01:12

Devastatin Dave-san I managed to query at least one of Tachikaze-san's points without reverting to personal insults.

By the looks of it I think both sides think the law is applying the laws based on race. Either selectively applying them or not, and from both sides of the fence it seems to be applied to different groups then what the other perceives.

Then you have misread my postion,. I don't care about their race - if they come legally within the system it does not matter to me. If they come illegally then they should face the consequences as proscribed by the current law.

Until the current laws are enforced - new laws are useless.

Redleg

05-16-2006, 01:23

I pointed out the quota system used and what nations are on the top to point out the fact that the comment "its to keep the darkie's out" comes from a lack of knowledge of the current immigrantion laws and is in fact a "racist" argument all by itself.

(oh I wonder if the moderators will give me a warning for once again pointing out that the term "darkie" is in fact a Racist term, regardless if it is pointed out toward an individual or a national policy. Or how about we should just state that the current policy is nothing but a policy to keep all the "retards" out. - you might want to check the current immigrantion laws of the United States - because some of its geared for just that, to only allow educated people into the nation...)

Beirut

05-16-2006, 02:04

After review, it was clearly my error that the word "darkies" was not dealt with appropriately. I applied a context to it that was not, in hindsight, correct. I apologize for my poor performance and reading skills.

Keeping this in mind, if a member has a complaint, the Admins, the PM system, and the Watchtower are all available to members to discuss their grievances. They are the proper forums in which to debate problems with threads and moderating. Turning a thread into a battleground of caustic remarks will inevitably lead to bigger problems, as it did here.

Papewaio

05-16-2006, 02:57

Then you have misread my postion,. I don't care about their race - if they come legally within the system it does not matter to me. If they come illegally then they should face the consequences as proscribed by the current law.

Until the current laws are enforced - new laws are useless.

Then you misread into who I referred to explicitly and implicitly.

Explicitly: Tachi and DnD.

Implicitly: The group that goes "We need to stop Mexicans getting into USA, lets use our troops and machine gun those who dare cross over illegally."... overkill literally, and selective in which group they choose to state they wish to use disproportionate force.

And the other groups that go "You have no rights as an immigrant nation to decide who can legally immigrate." or "All immigration is legal, no country has sovereignty and who cares about the environmental (social, economical and ecological) consequences of unfettered migration."

Redleg

05-16-2006, 03:13

Then you misread into who I referred to explicitly and implicitly.

Explicitly: Tachi and DnD.

Implicitly: The group that goes "We need to stop Mexicans getting into USA, lets use our troops and machine gun those who dare cross over illegally."... overkill literally, and selective in which group they choose to state they wish to use disproportionate force.

And the other groups that go "You have no rights as an immigrant nation to decide who can legally immigrate." or "All immigration is legal, no country has sovereignty and who cares about the environmental (social, economical and ecological) consequences of unfettered migration."

That is clearer....

Papewaio

05-16-2006, 03:17

If you played the ball more and less the guy you would be moderating this forum by now... how is that for punishment. :dizzy2:

Redleg

05-16-2006, 03:24

If you played the ball more and less the guy you would be moderating this forum by now... how is that for punishment. :dizzy2:

If I wanted a sucking head wound where my brains leaked out, I would just ask for it.

What did you do to deserve banishment into moderatoring the backroom? :inquisitive:

Your punishment is harsher then mine.....:laugh4:

Besides sometimes you have to foul to get your point across. Unfortunately instead of a one point shot - I caused a two shot foul....:oops: Coach is really pissed at me, I wonder if I will be sent to the bench for the rest of the game.......:wall:

Reenk Roink

05-16-2006, 04:08

~:grouphug:

~:pat:

:shakehands:

Alexander the Pretty Good

05-16-2006, 04:23

Back On Topic!

The only real way I can see is eliminate the demand for the immigrants, for then the supply will dry up.

What to do - if a company or individual employs illegal aliens, we liquidate their assets. To facilitate this, there will be rewards for correct information on such an employer. IE, if you correctly finger such a criminal, you get 10% of the assets, tax free.

Plus the employer gets jail time and a felony to his name. I think that would dry it up pretty quickly. :2thumbsup:

The flow of immigrants across the Mexican border would, I think, drop significantly within five years, to the point where existing security could handle the challenge of securing the border.

Tachikaze

05-16-2006, 20:06

It's amazing how conservatives complain about political correctness until they want to use PC to jump all over a political opponent about a word like "darkie", ignoring its context and intent. At least one of these same conservatives have used words like "homos" for gays and other nonPC terms.

Recent posts imply that I used the word "darkie". I didn't; I merely defended the point that the forumer who did write it was making. I think I understand why he used it. I'll let him explain it if he wants to.

Redleg has gotten the intent of the immigration laws mixed up with its practice. I don't blame the US government for having some controls on immigration. I applaud the fact that there is currently no language requirement (as an ESL teacher and linguist, I could write a whole article on this issue).

My complaint is how the law is being applied. People from certain countries, cultures, and perceived races are not given the same treatment as people of others. To think that the immigration laws are being enforced fairly is fantasy, or as the conservatives like to say, näive.

When I wrote about the checkpoint, my words were quite clear. This is not a border crossing, where they check documents and speak to all people crossing, as Redleg described. This is a situation in which cars pass through at a reduced speed on a freeway and HS personnel stare into the car windshields and determine who they will stop. I emphasized that perceived race was about the only realistic criterion they could use to discriminate.

Redleg

05-17-2006, 18:49

Recently someone stated that the immigrantion policies of the United States were racist geared to keep certain groups out. Given the history of immigrantion from countries from the same hemisphere of the United States and the recent news from the adminstration. The past granting of amensities by at least two adminstration geared to the illegal immigrants from our south, and the current plan.

I wonder if the two main individuals that espoused such a view point realize now that the "racist" immigrantion polices are not toward the group that they decided to degrade with a certain term.

Accuastions such as this TachikazeRedleg has gotten the intent of the immigration laws mixed up with its practice when faced with the reality of what goes on in immigrantion demonstrates very well that the individual who has a misunderstanding of immigrantion, the law in regards to immigrantion and the application of it in reality is yourself.

Goalie

05-18-2006, 04:33

send em to iraq and afganistan to fight in the war, then if they survive for 10 years or so, let them in

Idaho

05-18-2006, 11:41

Recently someone stated that the immigrantion policies of the United States were racist geared to keep certain groups out.
No I don't think the immigration policies are racist. I think that the large scale objection to illegal mexican immigration is largely predicated on racism. There is a world of difference.

I would have answered by corner sooner - but the backroom wasn't working for the last couple of days :laugh4:

Basically the law on this board is that you can't lampoon right wing americans as they can dish it out but can't take it.

Ser Clegane

05-18-2006, 11:54

Basically the law on this board is that you can't lampoon right wing americans as they can dish it out but can't take it.

Basically the "law" on this board is that you can't dish out personal attacks or slander whole groups of people without facing consequences, regardless of your or your target's position in the left-right spectrum.

That "members" of each "camp" regularly complain about unequal treatment could of course be seen as an indication that the system somehow works :juggle2:

Idaho

05-18-2006, 12:03

you can't dish out personal attacks or slander whole groups of people

A rather difficult point of law. How can we decide what counts as slander? Dave is regularly calling homosexuals depraved - they are a group of people. Palestinians are called terrorists and barbarians regularly - any consequences of that? How about 'commies'? They are a group of people - I have seen some posters demand they be shot. Does that count?

You mods do a difficult job - but this board is effectively an american space, and american political norms, prejudices and conventions hold sway.

Beirut

05-18-2006, 12:27

:canada: Ree-hee-hee-heeeeeely?

Idaho

05-18-2006, 12:28

:canada: Ree-hee-hee-heeeeeely?
So are you African, European, Asian or Australasian then?

Redleg

05-18-2006, 12:31

A rather difficult point of law. How can we decide what counts as slander? Dave is regularly calling homosexuals depraved - they are a group of people. Palestinians are called terrorists and barbarians regularly - any consequences of that? How about 'commies'? They are a group of people - I have seen some posters demand they be shot. Does that count?

You mods do a difficult job - but this board is effectively an american space, and american political norms, prejudices and conventions hold sway.

Well you just proved once again that the board is fairily moderated.

I wonder what would happen to any nation besides the United States if it had 500,000 to 1,000,000 illegal immigrants attempt to gain entrance - and actually do gain entrance into their nations.

I can pretty much guess that answer.

And race wouldn't have a play in that answer either.

Idaho

05-18-2006, 12:33

The nationality of one or other moderator is irrelevant to the point anyhow. It's about the overiding paradigm of the board. The mainstay opinion of this board is:

Capitalism is good
America is a benign force in the world
America is the best place in the world
Palestinians are terrorists
Gays are perverts
Socialism means making everyone speak Russian and being miserable

These opinions are held and maintained by 80% of posters and any attempt to challenge them is met with incredulity and derision. Like you are saying something just to be awkward.

Ser Clegane

05-18-2006, 12:36

The mainstay opinion of this board is:

Capitalism is good
America is a benign force in the world
America is the best place in the world
Palestinians are terrorists
Gays are perverts
Socialism means making everyone speak Russian and being miserable

The funny (or perhaps not quite so funny) thing is that your are probably really believing that this the case - just as some other patrons believe that the complete opposite is the case ... go figure

Idaho

05-18-2006, 12:41

Well you just proved once again that the board is fairily moderated.

I wonder what would happen to any nation besides the United States if it had 500,000 to 1,000,000 illegal immigrants attempt to gain entrance - and actually do gain entrance into their nations.

I can pretty much guess that answer.

And race wouldn't have a play in that answer either.

Well actually you can't guess the answer because you don't have a clue. The developing world copes with by far the greatest number of refugees and migrations, legal or otherwise.

UNHCR Refugee Stats 2005 (http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/statistics/opendoc.pdf?tbl=STATISTICS&id=43c7dc982)

Beirut

05-18-2006, 13:01

So are you African, European, Asian or Australasian then?

Don't even think about it. You were implying American=USA, not North American.

Even if you did mean North America, which you didn't, which "American political norms" were you speaking of? Gay marriage? Gun control? Iraq? Marijuana legislation? Socialized medicine? Trade with Cuba? Nuclear weapons?

Goodness knows all of North America respect the same political norms.

:canada::unitedstates: Yep. We're practically clones. :yes:

Idaho

05-18-2006, 13:28

Don't even think about it. You were implying American=USA, not North American.
If you want to confuse inferrance for implication, that's your own lookout :balloon2:

Redleg

05-18-2006, 13:41

Well actually you can't guess the answer because you don't have a clue. The developing world copes with by far the greatest number of refugees and migrations, legal or otherwise.

UNHCR Refugee Stats 2005 (http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/statistics/opendoc.pdf?tbl=STATISTICS&id=43c7dc982)

Kind of like your comments about illegal immigrantion in the United States. Ie you haven't a clue.

I wonder if you looked at the numbers and the way those numbers are dispersed across the develeping world.

I wonder if you understand the impact of those population increases over a short time on those countries.

Then I wonder if you have been paying attention to what is happening in Europe just on legal immigrantion issues, and their impact upon those populations.

Then I wonder if you looked at the time periods involved with the refugee issues that that report deals with. I wonder if you realize that many of those same nations are getting outside help from other nations and organization to help assist them with the issue.

Then I wonder if you have looked into the status of your nation's immigrantion issues.

Face it Idaho the individual who doesn't have a clue about illegal immigrantion issues and its impact on the United States is yourself.

I gathered that from the fact that you never responded to the initial post - which happened way before anyone got warning points.

Idaho

05-18-2006, 14:20

Devastatin Dave

05-18-2006, 14:57

My own nation's immigration policy is based on racism. The average UK citizen would probably want even tougher immigration policies based on their racism.

As for immigration issues in the US. I stand by my assertion that the problems of low wages, poor provision of public services and crime are blamed on immigration and are not necessarily caused by it.

Please allow me to introduce a little reality to you. Its not about race. If Swedon was stuck on the ass end of the US and we had millions of Swedes illegally entering the US, there would be the exact same reaction. Its not about race, you and many people of your political leanings make EVERYTHING about race. Its just easier to cry racism than face reality.

Poor provisions of public services? Its obviously much better than Mexico's. If the US would deny these services then the immagration problem would be much less. Why don't all the illegals in MY country march in protest against MEXICO for doing such a bad job with its economy and it's own social(ist) services.

Get off the racism complaint. Its old and tired, much like the foolish idea that the government should be in charge of everything and personal responsibility means nothing. :juggle2:

Idaho

05-18-2006, 15:22

Its old and tired, much like the foolish idea that the government should be in charge of everything and personal responsibility means nothing. :juggle2:
Yes because that's exactly how it works over here in communist europe. The government control EVERYTHING :idea2:

You pay more taxes and obey more rules than I do on a daily basis. The US is a totally rules based society with huge penalties if someone contravenes those rules. You're the ones with the gun to your head.

Redleg

05-18-2006, 16:09

My own nation's immigration policy is based on racism. The average UK citizen would probably want even tougher immigration policies based on their racism.

However we are not discussing Englands racist issues as it regards immigrantion. So don't bring your own racial issues to a discussion that is not about race - but illegal immigrantion. I

As for immigration issues in the US. I stand by my assertion that the problems of low wages, poor provision of public services and crime are blamed on immigration and are not necessarily caused by it.

I see your still ducking the questions

And you are still missing most of the picture - people state that illegal immigrantion contributes to the problem. There are more factors to the equation then just the impact of illegal immigrantion. I could go into the poor education levels of the majority of americans, the entitlement society that has taken hold of many people, the fact that capitialism has indeed caused some of our problems (ie outsourcing of jobs is indeed a capitialist method of insuring profit) and several other relative facts to the decrease in wages, the poor provisions of public services and yes even crime.

Seamus Fermanagh

05-18-2006, 16:51

Please allow me to introduce a little reality to you. Its not about race. If Swedon was stuck on the ass end of the US and we had millions of Swedes illegally entering the US, there would be the exact same reaction. Its not about race, you and many people of your political leanings make EVERYTHING about race. Its just easier to cry racism than face reality.

Poor provisions of public services? Its obviously much better than Mexico's. If the US would deny these services then the immagration problem would be much less. Why don't all the illegals in MY country march in protest against MEXICO for doing such a bad job with its economy and it's own social(ist) services.

Get off the racism complaint. Its old and tired, much like the foolish idea that the government should be in charge of everything and personal responsibility means nothing. :juggle2:

DD:

I wish it were not so, but a small number of the more Paleolithic right-wingers are motivated by race on their stance regarding immigration. I wish they would evolve, but it's a free country and their stupidity is just as protected as any other point of view. Sadly, I'm pretty sure my mom is motivated by some of this attitude~:mecry: . Even though their motivation is silly, they still have ended up on the correct side of this issue -- even a blind squirrel can stumble across an acorn from time to time.

I do agree with you that a majority of Americans would be -- and are -- just as angry about the illegals from China and Ireland as we are with those from Mexico. It is glaringly obvious however, as you suggest in your second paragraph, that Mexico is the only country whose policies are demonstrably aiding and abetting this illegal activity -- it is, in effect, on ongoing non-violent robbery of the American economy by the Mexican government. Unfortunately, too many of our own businesses and a substantial slice of our government are colluding with the Mexican government in this. In my opinion it is this aspect which accounts for the vehemence of a majority of the anti-illegal alien sentiment here.

I do agree with you whole-heartedly that attempting to label all opposition to the illegal aliens with a "racist" label is wrong and contributes little to the discussion -- but I am sadly aware that a few of those idiots are out there.

Alexanderofmacedon

05-18-2006, 22:39

Alexanderofmacedon

05-18-2006, 22:44

In response to a thread that got locked because it was on a similar topic.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=64801

Well, I think it may not be a bad idea. If we could get the Mexican government to help in the process, I think we could really get this to work.

If we are willing to 'police' in Iraq and everything, than we should do some work to make the whole world better. I know, it's not our job to spend our hard earned money to make the world better, but I know American people to be nice like that.

Kaiser of Arabia

05-18-2006, 23:06

Alexanderofmacedon

05-18-2006, 23:27

Heh I nver stated my solution.

I say let them stay if they speak english, pay all their back taxes (at a rate of which they make minimum wage if their wages are below minimum wage), and do a tour of duty in Iraq.

I'm sure having them do a tour of duty in Iraq would never fly with most liberals, but I don't think it's too bad an idea. Only problem is we'd have to train them. Don't know if it'd work too well.:juggle2:

Redleg

05-18-2006, 23:32

I'm sure having them do a tour of duty in Iraq would never fly with most liberals, but I don't think it's too bad an idea. Only problem is we'd have to train them. Don't know if it'd work too well.:juggle2:

Works quite well. There is a significant portion of the military that is hispanic. Factor in the Phillipine and Peutro Rico citizens that are also eligible to enlist in the United States Military - you have a decent percentage of the current military that speak Spanish enough to train any spanish speaking enlisted soldier. If I remember correctly all non-english speaking enlisted soldiers have to take a basic english course while in basic.

The problem is that it will not fly politically since it basically is indentured or forced enlistment.

Alexanderofmacedon

05-18-2006, 23:37

Works quite well. There is a significant portion of the military that is hispanic. Factor in the Phillipine and Peutro Rico citizens that are also eligible to enlist in the United States Military - you have a decent percentage of the current military that speak Spanish enough to train any spanish speaking enlisted soldier. If I remember correctly all non-english speaking enlisted soldiers have to take a basic english course while in basic.

The problem is that it will not fly politically since it basically is indentured or forced enlistment.

Maybe a hispanic battalion or something.

Papewaio

05-18-2006, 23:48

From page 3 and 4 of this thread alone we are said to have a bias... but each example is the opposite of the other:

The nationality of one or other moderator is irrelevant to the point anyhow. It's about the overiding paradigm of the board. The mainstay opinion of this board is:

Capitalism is good
America is a benign force in the world
America is the best place in the world
Palestinians are terrorists
Gays are perverts
Socialism means making everyone speak Russian and being miserable

These opinions are held and maintained by 80% of posters and any attempt to challenge them is met with incredulity and derision. Like you are saying something just to be awkward.

Be careful , certain Mods are taking points for calling a spade a spade, especially if your political leanings aren't in line with theirs. Of course this only applies to conservatives, all the liberals and leftits out there are still free to call conservatives racists, "commies", and whatever they want without concequence. Same old same old in the Backroom you know. Never thought I'd say this but I wish Soly would come back soon. Atleast he would just ask you to edit your post, not totally #### you like the ********************* does with the points. Oh, did I do another personal attack? Ooopsie, too bad I can't edit.

Could you guys make up your minds and decide which bias we are moderating with. My head is overheating and these turbans are the cheap ones that don't ventalite so well.

Redleg

05-18-2006, 23:57

Maybe a hispanic battalion or something.

The United States Military no longer practices that type of racism. That type of racial designated unit went out sometime during the Korean War.

Redleg

05-18-2006, 23:59

From page 3 and 4 of this thread alone we are said to have a bias... but each example is the opposite of the other:

Could you guys make up your minds and decide which bias we are moderating with. My head is overheating and these turbans are the cheap ones that don't ventalite so well.

You need to ask for more money for your moderation duties so that you can afford the more expensive turbans - the ones with an air conditioner included...:idea2:

Louis VI the Fat

05-19-2006, 00:25

My own nation's immigration policy is based on racism. The average UK citizen would probably want even tougher immigration policies based on their racism.That's true that. I think it holds true for most European countries, and the US as well. But racism it is not. That is not the right term. It is not the colour of the immigrants' skin. What unsettles many people, is watching a demographic explosion of groups of people within their society who speak a different language, have a different culture, different values. And agressively cling on to that.

Essentially, the American southwest is being transformed at an incredible rate into, well not Mexico, but a Texmex or Mexifornia. (Or for that matter: Marseille is now a city where I feel a foreigner, and an unwelcome one at that. I don't know what that place is, but it isn't French. Call me a racist if you must.)

You do have a point when stressing that it is this feeling that preceded the outrage over illegal immigration. It is not a worry over lower wages, or concern over formal legal immigration procedure that created the current outrage. But it is not racism either. It is outrage over foreigners not willing to integrate. Of people refusing to speak your own language in your own country. Of seeing your country being aggresively transformed. I'd say the issue is not white (and black or asian, lest we forget) versus hispanic, but American versus Mexican.

Strike For The South

05-19-2006, 01:05

The nail on the head frenchie:2thumbsup:

Seamus Fermanagh

05-19-2006, 03:24

I'm now getting this weird image of Louis VI and SFTS walking along a darkened airstrip mumbling something about the "beginning of a beautiful friendship."

:2thumbsup:

Alexanderofmacedon

05-19-2006, 04:20

The United States Military no longer practices that type of racism. That type of racial designated unit went out sometime during the Korean War.

Oh I didn't mean for it to sound rascist. It could just maybe make them feel more comfortable to be with their comrades if they were somewhat "forced" to go to war. I guess you may be right though and it would get crap jobs or something.:shame:

Strike For The South

05-19-2006, 04:26

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/17/immigration.ap/index.html

Great amnesty...I can see it now in 15 years the southwest votes for the offical laguage to be spainish. In 30 greater automny is given to the southwest "We must respect the southwests uniuqe culture" says the presdint. In 50 the southwest becomes Atslan putting Texas right back where we were 200 years ago:no:. Lesson kids? You can break the law if big business needs you and youre a growing minorty those are the two requriements. Well we better start brushing up now.

https://img131.imageshack.us/img131/7106/banderacopy6xd.th.jpg (https://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=banderacopy6xd.jpg)

Mexicanos, al grito de Guerra
El acero , aprestad y el bridón,
y retiemble en sus centros la tierra.
Al sonoro rugir del cañón.

First Stanza
Ciña ¡Oh patria tus sienes de oliva!
De la paz el arcángel divino,
Que en el cielo tu eterno destino
Por el dedo de Dios escribió.
Mas si osare un extraño enemigo
Profanar con su planta tu suelo
Piensa ¡Oh patria querida! Que el cielo
Un soldado en cada hijo te dio.
Chorus
Mexicanos, al grito de Guerra
El acero , aprestad y el bridón,
y retiemble en sus centros la tierra.
Al sonoro rugir del cañón.
Second Stanza
¡Guerra, guerra sin tregua al que intente
De la patria manchar los blasones!
¡Guerra, guerra! Los patrios pendones,
En las olas de sangre empapad.
¡Guerra, guerra! En el monte, en el valle
Los cañones horrísonos truenen,
Y los ecos sonoros resuenen
Con las voces de ¡Unión! ¡Libertad!
Chorus
Mexicanos, al grito de Guerra
El acero , aprestad y el bridón,
y retiemble en sus centros la tierra.
Al sonoro rugir del cañón.
Third Stanza
Antes, patria, que inermes tu hijos
Bajo el yugo su cuello dobleguen
Tus campiñas con sangre se rieguen
Sobre la sangre se estampe su pie.
Y tus templos, palacios y torres
Se derrumben con hórrido estruendo,
Y sus ruinas existan diciendo:
De mil héroes la patria aquí fue.
Chorus
Mexicanos, al grito de Guerra
El acero , aprestad y el bridón,
y retiemble en sus centros la tierra.
Al sonoro rugir del cañón.
Fourth Stanza
¡Patria! ¡Patria! Tus hijos te juran
Exhalar en tus aras su aliento,
Si el clarín con su bélico acento
Los convoca a lidiar con valor.
¡Para ti las guirnaldas de oliva!
¡Un recuerdo para ellos de gloria!
¡Un laurel para ti de victoria!
¡Un sepulcro para ellos de honor! Chorus
Mexicanos, al grito de Guerra
El acero , aprestad y el bridón,
y retiemble en sus centros la tierra.
Al sonoro rugir del cañón.

Incongruous

05-19-2006, 05:00

You could have just asked me to edit my post.

Tachikaze

05-19-2006, 06:30

Redleg

05-19-2006, 13:25

Let California become part of Mexico again, where it belongs. We will raise the economy of Mexico tremendously; the Mexicans can stay home and live well; they will not need to cross any borders.

Your fooling yourself

Texas and the Red States will be happy that they don't have to share a country with us, and we'll be happy we don't have to share a country with the Republicans. Californians can all become bilingual and chew on wonderful Mexican food.

A win-win-win situation.

Again your fooling yourself. Do you realize why a large number of Mexicans cross the border every year both legally and illegally?

I will give you a hint take a close look at the Mexican Government.

Tachikaze

05-19-2006, 18:10

I will give you a hint take a close look at the Mexican Government.
Arnie can kick Fox's ass any day.

Redleg

05-19-2006, 19:11

Arnie can kick Fox's ass any day.

That might be true on a one to one encounter between the two men - but it seems your not facing the reality of what the Mexican government is and does.

Ask yourself this - why do the Mexican's attempt such a dangerous journey to illegally enter the United States?

Louis VI the Fat

05-19-2006, 22:29

I'm now getting this weird image of Louis VI and SFTS walking along a darkened airstrip mumbling something about the "beginning of a beautiful friendship."

:2thumbsup:Nah im just a double login thta i creatd to fool yall. Louis doesnt raelly exist.

Fooled ya. :laugh4:

Strike for the South.

Louis VI the Fat

05-19-2006, 22:30

Yay Go Longhorns!!!

Strike for the South.

https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6411/t5200601041859397396cu.jpg

Alexanderofmacedon

05-20-2006, 00:36

Yay Go Longhorns!!!

Strike for the South.

https://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6411/t5200601041859397396cu.jpg

Maybe you should stop while you're ahead...

Alexander the Pretty Good

05-20-2006, 00:56

See, the correct spelling in the second post tipped me off.

:laugh4:

You almost had me, Louis. :2thumbsup:

Kaiser of Arabia

05-20-2006, 01:08

Let California become part of Mexico again, where it belongs. We will raise the economy of Mexico tremendously; the Mexicans can stay home and live well; they will not need to cross any borders.

Texas and the Red States will be happy that they don't have to share a country with us, and we'll be happy we don't have to share a country with the Republicans. Californians can all become bilingual and chew on wonderful Mexican food.

A win-win-win situation.

Wrong. The Mexicans lose from the massive amount of pot becoming part of their nation, the massive energy crisis, San Fransico, and all the Hippies. The Mexican economy collapses and they are annexed by Venezeual when Chaves decides to conqure the world. The end.

Strike For The South

05-20-2006, 15:39

Loiue you disgust me https://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3620/gigemthumb1af.th.jpg (https://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gigemthumb1af.jpg)

Alexanderofmacedon

05-20-2006, 15:51

Haha, come on Louis, get it right...

I , however am a longhorns fan. You can be my imposter.:2thumbsup:

BHCWarman88

05-20-2006, 17:31

I Hate Illgeal Immgiants With a Passion.. I hate How Preisdent Fox Threating to Sue Us if we do anything to "his Citizins".. My God, IS Bush More Worry about thos Stupid Mexcians Who Are Legal Ctians IN MEXICO,NOT HERE then The Actual US Citienzs,Like Me and everyone Us who had family members come here Legally?? I think the Natinaol Guard Should Guard The Border.. Any Mexcian Crossing Shall Be shot. That what I would do.. I heard on CNN Most Smulggers Are Reasled from Jail because there is not Enough Judges around to prsotecute themm..
Now, if you had the Army Guaring The Border,Popping the Guys as they come across the Fence,we won't have that ploblem,eh?? I don't care how many of you think that Idea of mine is plain Wrong, it just the right thing to do.. and the 12 Million People here?? Put them on Ships,Send them out in the Ocean,and blow them up or Sent them all Back to Mexico to work 50 cents a day where they Belong..

Ser Clegane

05-20-2006, 17:49

Any Mexcian Crossing Shall Be shot.
[...]
Put them on Ships,Send them out in the Ocean,and blow them up or Sent them all Back to Mexico to work 50 cents a day where they Belong..

This is not acceptable here :stare:

This forum is meant for discussion and debate not for sharing sick fantasies of violence.

Thanks for your attention

Ser Clegane

Kaiser of Arabia

05-21-2006, 01:50

I got a temporary ban last time I said that ~:(

TAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHYYYMMM IS ON MY SIDE, YES IT IS!

Anyway, you gotta feel bad for the ones that come here legitimatly looking for a better life. They're the one reason I don't support immediate deportation of them. However, allowing them to go around in America unchecked is a national security issue more than anything else. If Mexican nationals can get in our nation undetected like that ,well, why can't terrorists... or even worse, agents working for enemy governments?

That is why I suggest we round them up, give them backround checks, and the ones with fishy backrounds deport down to Panama or Argentina (as far away from the US boarder as possible on the American continents, Kudos to Mencia for giving me the idea), and the ones who are clean can stay as long as they work off all their back taxes or join a foreign-legion type deal we can form. I'd be cool for that.

Naturally, you can't stop them all from coming here illegaly. But you can stop alot of them.

Ice

05-21-2006, 01:57

I wouldnt mind CA becoming part of Mexico. That would be a better solution then building a huge wall around it. :laugh4:

BHCWarman88

05-21-2006, 02:18

This is not acceptable here :stare:

This forum is meant for discussion and debate not for sharing sick fantasies of violence.

Thanks for your attention

Ser Clegane

To Me,a Soulution to a Major Ploblem.. But I Apogle for my Ideas..

Anyhow,if we do Grant them Amentisy,Dear God please Don't give them Amentsiy,but if we do, give them the Hardest Punishment ever. BackTaxes,Huge Fine,etc....

Alexander the Pretty Good

05-21-2006, 03:20

You should be apologizing for being inhuman, not for having a "solution." Hitler had one too, you know.

We don't need to give them amnesty, and we certainly don't need to massacre them.

Does anyone here have any opinion whatsoever on my idea for a solution? I posted this on page 3, I think, but received no feedback.

The only real way I can see is eliminate the demand for the immigrants, for then the supply will dry up.

What to do - if a company or individual employs illegal aliens, we liquidate their assets. To facilitate this, there will be rewards for correct information on such an employer. IE, if you correctly finger such a criminal, you get 10% of the assets, tax free.

Plus the employer gets jail time and a felony to his name. I think that would dry it up pretty quickly.

The flow of immigrants across the Mexican border would, I think, drop significantly within five years, to the point where existing security could handle the challenge of securing the border.

I would think this would make both anti-business types AND anti-illegal-immigration types happy, but I don't know. What do you guys think of this?

Alexanderofmacedon

05-21-2006, 03:36

I have forgotten to add that I am in all favor of attacking employers of illegal immigrants (mainly ones who have them doing hard laborous tasks for less than minimum wage).

Just adding a bit...:book:

makkyo

05-21-2006, 03:44

It doesn't matter to me how much they get paid. Illegal is illegal.
And Alex, that may be a good place to start. I agree. But America has too much of a reputation (depite what many are trying to say) that we are the center of freedom of oportunity in the world. More will still come, but I do agree that it would be a good deterrent in the long run.

Tachikaze

05-21-2006, 06:02

Alexanderofmacedon

05-21-2006, 06:45

Sorry I didn't respond to your earlier post. I do, indeed, think this plan has merit. I might apporach it a little differently, but I like the idea of penalizing the employers, rather than the workers.

I also agree to lowering the incentives for people to immigrate.

Yes, they should make it easier to become a legal citizen.

Papewaio

05-22-2006, 00:30

Aren't the illegal immigrant employers already breaking laws?

Same solution as the probation period and the gangsters... go after the employers with the IRS.

Seamus Fermanagh

05-22-2006, 00:37

Aren't the illegal immigrant employers already breaking laws?

Same solution as the probation period and the gangsters... go after the employers with the IRS.

On your minor point (Capone approach): I'd prefer to cut the IRS down by about 90% by establishing a better system of taxation.

On you major point (Existing Laws): A _________ men. If we'd enforce our existing laws even halfway, much of the problem would evaporate.

Tachikaze

05-22-2006, 18:20

Yes, they should make it easier to become a legal citizen.
The system now makes it easier for people with white-color jobs to immigrate than those with working class jobs, as if people with higher incomes are more valuable humans.

Tachikaze

05-22-2006, 18:31

Aren't the illegal immigrant employers already breaking laws?

Same solution as the probation period and the gangsters... go after the employers with the IRS.
The solution is not so much punishment as have a regulatory body that oversees businesses more closely. The idea is also not to be specifically concerned with "illegal" immigrants as to make sure the minimum wage is paid, proper benefits given for fulltime employees, and all other regulated employer responsibilites are met.

Once this is in operation, US employers have far less incentives to hire people from outside the US. The "illegals" will have less job opertunities here and less incentive to cross the border.

Also, the ones who do cross will be documented, and have to participate in our system (e.g. pay taxes).

From a compassionate standpoint, I would feel badly that the immigrants could not get better opportunities here, but it is a more humane system than one the forces people to brave dangerous illicit border crossings that have led to many deaths.

Louis VI the Fat

05-22-2006, 18:43

The system now makes it easier for people with white-color jobs to immigrate than those with working class jobs, as if people with higher incomes are more valuable humans.Hehe, a lovely Freudian slip, allowing us a sneak peak into your mind. :balloon2:

Redleg

05-22-2006, 19:16

Hehe, a lovely Freudian slip, allowing us a sneak peak into your mind. :balloon2:

Yes indeed it does.

BTW I believe the terms used in the immigration policy is skilled and unskilled. THere are some skilled jobs allowed that would technically be considered Blue-Collared jobs.

Goalie

05-23-2006, 03:43

why does it say that ser clogne started this thread when i did?

Csargo

05-23-2006, 06:39

Cause ser clogne is better than you.

Tachikaze

05-23-2006, 06:59

Hehe, a lovely Freudian slip, allowing us a sneak peak into your mind. :balloon2:
You're right. I often associate the word white with the word color.

Papewaio

05-23-2006, 07:11

White isn't a color though.

Goalie

05-23-2006, 17:50

Cause ser clogne is better than you.

Yea probably, but he is also better than you. but that is no reason that it should say that he started the thread.

Redleg

05-23-2006, 17:53

Yea probably, but he is also better than you. but that is no reason that it should say that he started the thread.

There is a bug in the system. The adminstrators and moderators are aware of it. You can find some more information in the Watchtower I believe. No need to believe you are being slighted by the moderators because your name is no longer in the header.

AwesomeArcher

05-27-2006, 04:58

I am kind of torn on the whole issue of immigration. I know the U.S. is founded on both legal and illegal immirgation. I can understand comming hear for a better life, but i do think that if you want to come hear, do it the legal way. I know the wait to be accepted in can be long, but people have to realize that this country can't accept every person in the world that is searching for a better life.
I think we should crack down on the immigration. Put up a wall on the border. I find it funny that the mexican president is pushing not to have a wall put up. He is trying to dump all of his unwanted people on us. The mexican government even tells there people ways to cross the border and not get caught, to me there is totally something wrong with that.
As for the 10 million that are hear illegally i think we should pass a law stating that they have to apply for citizenship by a certain date. Because otherwise there is no reason to apply for citizenship because they dont have to pay taxes and they get free healthcare. After that we should track down the remaining ones and deport them. Although that might sound mean we gave them the chance. The U.S. is based on immigration, but the law has to be drawn somewhere.