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Lemur
05-11-2006, 17:41
Title says it all, more info under the spoiler tag. How to the Orgiasts feel about this? Abuse of power? Necessary precaution? Signal for the apocalypse?

NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA)
Updated 5/11/2006 10:38 AM ET
By Leslie Cauley, USA TODAY

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS: The NSA record collection program (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa-qna_x.htm)

"It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

For the customers of these companies, it means that the government has detailed records of calls they made — across town or across the country — to family members, co-workers, business contacts and others.

The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with the NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying and tracking suspected terrorists, they said.

The sources would talk only under a guarantee of anonymity because the NSA program is secret.

Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, nominated Monday by President Bush to become the director of the CIA, headed the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005. In that post, Hayden would have overseen the agency's domestic call-tracking program. Hayden declined to comment about the program.

The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop — without warrants — on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.

In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

As a result, domestic call records — those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders — were believed to be private.

Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information.

Don Weber, a senior spokesman for the NSA, declined to discuss the agency's operations. "Given the nature of the work we do, it would be irresponsible to comment on actual or alleged operational issues; therefore, we have no information to provide," he said. "However, it is important to note that NSA takes its legal responsibilities seriously and operates within the law."

The White House would not discuss the domestic call-tracking program. "There is no domestic surveillance without court approval," said Dana Perino, deputy press secretary, referring to actual eavesdropping.

She added that all national intelligence activities undertaken by the federal government "are lawful, necessary and required for the pursuit of al-Qaeda and affiliated terrorists." All government-sponsored intelligence activities "are carefully reviewed and monitored," Perino said. She also noted that "all appropriate members of Congress have been briefed on the intelligence efforts of the United States."

The government is collecting "external" data on domestic phone calls but is not intercepting "internals," a term for the actual content of the communication, according to a U.S. intelligence official familiar with the program. This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon; it's been done before, though never on this large a scale, the official said. The data are used for "social network analysis," the official said, meaning to study how terrorist networks contact each other and how they are tied together.

Carriers uniquely positioned

AT&T recently merged with SBC and kept the AT&T name. Verizon, BellSouth and AT&T are the nation's three biggest telecommunications companies; they provide local and wireless phone service to more than 200 million customers.

The three carriers control vast networks with the latest communications technologies. They provide an array of services: local and long-distance calling, wireless and high-speed broadband, including video. Their direct access to millions of homes and businesses has them uniquely positioned to help the government keep tabs on the calling habits of Americans.

Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants.

Qwest's refusal to participate has left the NSA with a hole in its database. Based in Denver, Qwest provides local phone service to 14 million customers in 14 states in the West and Northwest. But AT&T and Verizon also provide some services — primarily long-distance and wireless — to people who live in Qwest's region. Therefore, they can provide the NSA with at least some access in that area.

Created by President Truman in 1952, during the Korean War, the NSA is charged with protecting the United States from foreign security threats. The agency was considered so secret that for years the government refused to even confirm its existence. Government insiders used to joke that NSA stood for "No Such Agency."

In 1975, a congressional investigation revealed that the NSA had been intercepting, without warrants, international communications for more than 20 years at the behest of the CIA and other agencies. The spy campaign, code-named "Shamrock," led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was designed to protect Americans from illegal eavesdropping.

Enacted in 1978, FISA lays out procedures that the U.S. government must follow to conduct electronic surveillance and physical searches of people believed to be engaged in espionage or international terrorism against the United States. A special court, which has 11 members, is responsible for adjudicating requests under FISA.

Over the years, NSA code-cracking techniques have continued to improve along with technology. The agency today is considered expert in the practice of "data mining" — sifting through reams of information in search of patterns. Data mining is just one of many tools NSA analysts and mathematicians use to crack codes and track international communications.

Paul Butler, a former U.S. prosecutor who specialized in terrorism crimes, said FISA approval generally isn't necessary for government data-mining operations. "FISA does not prohibit the government from doing data mining," said Butler, now a partner with the law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld in Washington, D.C.

The caveat, he said, is that "personal identifiers" — such as names, Social Security numbers and street addresses — can't be included as part of the search. "That requires an additional level of probable cause," he said.

The usefulness of the NSA's domestic phone-call database as a counterterrorism tool is unclear. Also unclear is whether the database has been used for other purposes.

The NSA's domestic program raises legal questions. Historically, AT&T and the regional phone companies have required law enforcement agencies to present a court order before they would even consider turning over a customer's calling data. Part of that owed to the personality of the old Bell Telephone System, out of which those companies grew.

Ma Bell's bedrock principle — protection of the customer — guided the company for decades, said Gene Kimmelman, senior public policy director of Consumers Union. "No court order, no customer information — period. That's how it was for decades," he said.

The concern for the customer was also based on law: Under Section 222 of the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, telephone companies are prohibited from giving out information regarding their customers' calling habits: whom a person calls, how often and what routes those calls take to reach their final destination. Inbound calls, as well as wireless calls, also are covered.

The financial penalties for violating Section 222, one of many privacy reinforcements that have been added to the law over the years, can be stiff. The Federal Communications Commission, the nation's top telecommunications regulatory agency, can levy fines of up to $130,000 per day per violation, with a cap of $1.325 million per violation. The FCC has no hard definition of "violation." In practice, that means a single "violation" could cover one customer or 1 million.

In the case of the NSA's international call-tracking program, Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to engage in eavesdropping without a warrant. The president and his representatives have since argued that an executive order was sufficient for the agency to proceed. Some civil liberties groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, disagree.

Companies approached

The NSA's domestic program began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, according to the sources. Right around that time, they said, NSA representatives approached the nation's biggest telecommunications companies. The agency made an urgent pitch: National security is at risk, and we need your help to protect the country from attacks.

The agency told the companies that it wanted them to turn over their "call-detail records," a complete listing of the calling histories of their millions of customers. In addition, the NSA wanted the carriers to provide updates, which would enable the agency to keep tabs on the nation's calling habits.

The sources said the NSA made clear that it was willing to pay for the cooperation. AT&T, which at the time was headed by C. Michael Armstrong, agreed to help the NSA. So did BellSouth, headed by F. Duane Ackerman; SBC, headed by Ed Whitacre; and Verizon, headed by Ivan Seidenberg.

With that, the NSA's domestic program began in earnest.

AT&T, when asked about the program, replied with a comment prepared for USA TODAY: "We do not comment on matters of national security, except to say that we only assist law enforcement and government agencies charged with protecting national security in strict accordance with the law."

In another prepared comment, BellSouth said: "BellSouth does not provide any confidential customer information to the NSA or any governmental agency without proper legal authority."

Verizon, the USA's No. 2 telecommunications company behind AT&T, gave this statement: "We do not comment on national security matters, we act in full compliance with the law and we are committed to safeguarding our customers' privacy."

Qwest spokesman Robert Charlton said: "We can't talk about this. It's a classified situation."

In December, The New York Times revealed that Bush had authorized the NSA to wiretap, without warrants, international phone calls and e-mails that travel to or from the USA. The following month, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil liberties group, filed a class-action lawsuit against AT&T. The lawsuit accuses the company of helping the NSA spy on U.S. phone customers.

Last month, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales alluded to that possibility. Appearing at a House Judiciary Committee hearing, Gonzales was asked whether he thought the White House has the legal authority to monitor domestic traffic without a warrant. Gonzales' reply: "I wouldn't rule it out." His comment marked the first time a Bush appointee publicly asserted that the White House might have that authority.

Similarities in programs

The domestic and international call-tracking programs have things in common, according to the sources. Both are being conducted without warrants and without the approval of the FISA court. The Bush administration has argued that FISA's procedures are too slow in some cases. Officials, including Gonzales, also make the case that the USA Patriot Act gives them broad authority to protect the safety of the nation's citizens.

The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., would not confirm the existence of the program. In a statement, he said, "I can say generally, however, that our subcommittee has been fully briefed on all aspects of the Terrorist Surveillance Program. ... I remain convinced that the program authorized by the president is lawful and absolutely necessary to protect this nation from future attacks."

The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., declined to comment.

One company differs

One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the program: Qwest.

According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order — or approval under FISA — to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information and how that information might be used.

Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the aggregate, could have been substantial.

The NSA told Qwest that other government agencies, including the FBI, CIA and DEA, also might have access to the database, the sources said. As a matter of practice, the NSA regularly shares its information — known as "product" in intelligence circles — with other intelligence groups. Even so, Qwest's lawyers were troubled by the expansiveness of the NSA request, the sources said.

The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard.

Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.

In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more.

Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events.

In June 2002, Nacchio resigned amid allegations that he had misled investors about Qwest's financial health. But Qwest's legal questions about the NSA request remained.

Unable to reach agreement, Nacchio's successor, Richard Notebaert, finally pulled the plug on the NSA talks in late 2004, the sources said.

Rodion Romanovich
05-11-2006, 17:44
Not surprising, tapping has been under development for quite some time. Sweden was trying to convince EU to start tapping all calls and Internet traffic. The technology apparently exists. I hope they'll remove the tapping before the politicians in all our countries are replaced by even worse politicians. I mean people who party and take vacation for some million dollars a year or so is bad, but acceptable, but what about when they are replaced by more violent people? It's dangerous ground to start this, because not only does it make it worse when a real nutcase by accident gets power, but it also makes nutcases more likely to be tempted by and strive towards these power positions.

Joker85
05-11-2006, 17:56
This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

I don't have a problem with this. They are not listening in, only creating a database of where calls are going so that if something occurs they are able to say, this person called/is still calling x other people at y time(s) and use that as the starting point in an investigation.

If you take a flight from Chicago to New York the government knows about it and if something happens 2 years later they can look back and say "this guy flew to New York in 2006, might want to see if anyone he visited there was involved in what he was doing".

If they wanted to listen to these calls (assuming they begin and end in the US, and to not involve a suspected terrorist calling into the US) they would need to go by the legal process.

People certainly have the right to disagree with me on this, but I do not believe it is a right or liberty of mine to be able to make a call to John Smith without the government having the ability to find out that I made a call to a person named John Smith.

Hurin_Rules
05-11-2006, 18:12
It should be very disturbing. Again we find the government has gone further than we knew, again we have only the government's assurances that this is legal, is not being abused and is the end of the story. Is personal information about Americans being cross referenced with this database? Who exactly has access to the database? If the NSA hasn't been listening to or recording any of these calls, has any other agency been doing it? You have to parse Bush's words very carefully these days, my friends.

Note also that the Justice Department has now dropped its own investigation into the Domestic Spying Program. The reason? The NSA refused to give its investigators security clearance. Pretty much sums up the lack of oversight in the present administration. Can you imagine such a thing happening in any other business or institution? 'Sure, we've heard about wrongdoing and wanted to investigate, but we can't because those accused of the wrongdoing don't want us to investigate.' Ridiculous. [See the story here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12727867/ ]

I guess the thing that most bothers me-- and it was what most bothered me with the Domestic Spying program-- was, as Leahy summed up today: 'Where does it stop?' Have we heard it all, or is there more to come? Who is watching the watchmen?

Don Corleone
05-11-2006, 18:16
Personally, I have limited concerns. I understand what you're saying Hurin, but frankly, at least here in America, your average cop can get phone records for anyone he wants. The NSA is just piling them all together to save themselves the trouble of having to call the phone company... the access, be it through the phone company or accessing their database has always been there. I imagine in 1890, when the first metro phone networks were arranged, the town's operator would more than happily tell the local sheriff who called whom last night, and maybe tell her sister and friends to boot. :listen:

Privacy is an illusion. Granted, security is too, but as W (not one of my favorite people these days, mind you) said, "If you're on the phone with Al Queda, we'd like to know why". I don't have too much concern about this. I guarantee that John Kerry would have authorized a similar database had Ohio swung the other way.

yesdachi
05-11-2006, 18:51
I am so pissed about this, I can’t believe it, this is an outr… age… wait a minute…

This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations.
Well, in that case I really don’t care. This is lefties finding something to bitch about when they could be trying to fix something that matters. Stop trying to make a big deal out of little stuff like this or when something major happens your going to get ignored.


This is the part that bothers me. It’s a SECRET program; these sources should be arrested for treason.

The sources would talk only under a guarantee of anonymity because the NSA program is secret.


Additionally, this kind of crap bothers me because I don’t like to be lied to.

Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

Lemur
05-11-2006, 19:22
For my money, the most interesting part of the article is a little note at the end:


Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office.

Why would the NSA refuse to run this past FISA? Why would they also refuse to get a letter of recommendation from the U.S.A.G.? Those are not unreasonable requests, and I'm left scratching my hairy lemur head, wondering why the folks in charge of the operation would balk at even the most basic level of oversight. As two posters have pointed out, the NSA was merely collecting times, phone numbers and names. Why would they be mulish about talking to the appropriate entities to get authorization?

Blodrast
05-11-2006, 20:54
it's all for your safety and security, stop complaining !
It's all for the better, and everyone will be much safer - surely that's worth giving up a little bit of your precious (and useless) privacy ! How else do you expect to get all these, um, terrorists ? Can't you see our borders aren't safe at all ?!

/sarcasm off

On a related note, see project Echelon, too.

Don Corleone
05-11-2006, 20:58
Janet Reno proposed all this back in 1997 with Project Carnivore. Does anyone here SERIOUSLY believe that she and the DOJ didn't proceed, just because their congressional oversight committee told them not to? Sheesh, people... all this 'legality' business means is that they can't introduce it as evidence, and even there, there's ways to worm it in as acceptable evidence. Don't be so naive, children.

Xiahou
05-11-2006, 21:20
This is nothing new- we should have all known about it for years. The provisions for collecting such data from the telcos has been in the Patriot Act from the start.

A little late for the media to be getting in a tizzy over isnt it?

Devastatin Dave
05-11-2006, 21:26
Wrap you phones in tinfoil, you'll be safe then from the government and the Martians.

Lemur
05-11-2006, 21:30
I thought tinfoil hats were for mind-control rays, but now DevDave has me all confused.

Defense Tech has an interesting take (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002399.html):


NSA Sweep "Waste of Time," Analyst Says

It'd be one thing if the NSA's massive sweep of our phone records was actually helping catch terrorists. But what if it's not working at all? A leading practitioner of the kind of analysis the NSA is supposedly performing in this surveillance program says that "it's a waste of time, a waste of resources. And it lets the real terrorists run free."

Re-reading the USA Today piece, one paragraph jumped out:

This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon; it's been done before, though never on this large a scale, the official said. The data are used for 'social network analysis,' the official said, meaning to study how terrorist networks contact each other and how they are tied together.

So I called Valdis Krebs, who's considered by many to be the leading authority on social network analysis -- the art and science of finding the important connections in a seemingly-impenetrable mass of data. His analysis of the social network surrounding the 9/11 hijackers is a classic in the field.

Here's what Krebs had to say about the newly-revealed NSA program that aims to track "every call ever made": "If you're looking for a needle, making the haystack bigger is counterintuitive. It just doesn't make sense."

"Certain people are more suspicious than others," he adds. They make frequent trips back-and-forth to Afghanistan, for instance. "So you start with them. And you work two steps out. If none of those people are connected, you don't have a cell. Because if one was there, you'd find some clustering. You don't have to collect all the data in the world to do that."

The right thing to do is to look for the best haystack, not the biggest haystack. We knew exactly which haystack to look at in the year 2000 [before the 9/11 attacks]. We just didn't do it...

The worst part -- the thing that's most disappointing to me -- is that this is not the right way to do this. It's a waste of time, a waste of resources. And it lets the real terrorists run free.

Devastatin Dave
05-11-2006, 21:33
I thought tinfoil hats were for mind-control rays, but now DevDave has me all confused.


It distorts sound waves. :laugh4:

KafirChobee
05-12-2006, 03:44
What was reported on PBS's "The Lehrer Report", tonight:
1) +10 million Americans are being tracked (Gah! 10million american terrorists - guess we lost that war in a hurry). +50million conversations are being "stored".
2) 320,000 people are on the NSA "primary" watchlist - yeah, right like they couldn't even pay attention to the 9/11 yahoos, so this will help. 320,000 suspects? Hope their all in Texas - j/k.
3) Their "watchlist" includes (amongst others); Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, and every John/and or Jorge Garcia in existance (true btw).

This sounds more like a political enemies list (ala Richard Nixon), and invasion of their privacy (s) than an actual tool being used to sort out the real terrorists amongst us.

As Lemur put it - you don't build a greater haystack when attmpting to find a needle in one. Their building a greater one to cover up their real intent - to subvert their political enemies - more than likely.

Soon, however, (after this November) we may have our three independent branches of government returned to us. We can only hope the Democrats take back at least the House - then LET THE INVESTIGATIONS BEGIN!:2thumbsup:

Btw, Bush's legal stand on this issue is identical to that of Richard Nixon's - we all know what happened then. There is no difference, and 9/11 (Patriot Act) did not change our laws it only subverted a few of them.

Alexanderofmacedon
05-12-2006, 04:31
Ok, let me start off by saying I'm a liberal. I do however notice the fact that it seems the liberal side has known about this since 2001 and have only brought this out now, for political gain. That being said, I think both conservative groups as well as liberal groups are always doing this sort of thing, and you nor I, nor anyone else can stop this.

On this issue, I think I have a few problems with it, but overall, if they're only monitoring what they say they are, then I'd say "ok". I don't see an invasion of privacy too badly, so I think it's alright. I may change my mind, when I get more information.

It struck me as being very funny how I heard about this. I was coming back from soccer practice and my friends dad was listening to some conservative talk show. It was the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. He was spewing absolute crap.:laugh4:

Xiahou
05-12-2006, 05:00
On this issue, I think I have a few problems with it, but overall, if they're only monitoring what they say they are, then I'd say "ok". I don't see an invasion of privacy too badly, so I think it's alright. I may change my mind, when I get more information.
That about matches my position.

Lemur, Im no intelligence expert- but the guy in the article sounds like a knuckle-head. Legal/ethical questions aside, it strikes me as the absolute best way to achieve the goals of the program. Say the NSA gets a cell number used by a terrorist recruiter in Afghanistan- obviously, they should tap the number asap, but in addition with this program they can instantly query their database and find out, not only what numbers have been called by this one, but they can also pull up any matches for calls into that number. From there, they could also instantaneously look for patterns in phone numbers that the people who were in communication with this number of calls in common between all of them. From this they could begin to get a picture of who other persons of interest may be.

For example, if you have people in 8 different states all calling a known terrorist number and then you have records of them all calling each other in addition to others- you'd have the potential to uncover networks of possible terrorists.

Avicenna
05-12-2006, 07:57
It's definitely not surprising, don't be shocked to find out some time later that even your credit cards and emails are looked at as well. It's all a matter of security, and personally, I don't care if my calls are listened to, so long as I don't get blown up by a terrorist attack.

Lemur
05-12-2006, 15:32
Looks as though a majority of Americans are cool with the whole process. Linky. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/12/AR2006051200375_pf.html)

Poll: Most Americans Support NSA's Efforts

By Richard Morin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 12, 2006; 7:00 AM

A majority of Americans initially support a controversial National Security Agency program to collect information on telephone calls made in the United States in an effort to identify and investigate potential terrorist threats, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll.

The new survey found that 63 percent of Americans said they found the NSA program to be an acceptable way to investigate terrorism, including 44 percent who strongly endorsed the effort. Another 35 percent said the program was unacceptable, which included 24 percent who strongly objected to it.

A slightly larger majority--66 percent--said they would not be bothered if NSA collected records of personal calls they had made, the poll found.

Underlying those views is the belief that the need to investigate terrorism outweighs privacy concerns. According to the poll, 65 percent of those interviewed said it was more important to investigate potential terrorist threats "even if it intrudes on privacy." Three in 10--31 percent--said it was more important for the federal government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats.

Half--51 percent--approved of the way President Bush was handling privacy matters.

The survey results reflect initial public reaction to the NSA program. Those views that could change or deepen as more details about the effort become known over the next few days.

USA Today disclosed in its Thursday editions the existence of the massive domestic intelligence-gathering program. The effort began soon after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Since then, the agency began collecting call records on tens of millions of personal and business telephone calls made in the United States. Agency personnel reportedly analyze those records to identify suspicious calling patterns but do not listen in on or record individual telephone conversations.

Word of the program sparked immediate criticism on Capitol Hill, where Democrats and Republicans criticized the effort as a threat to privacy and called for congressional inquiries to learn more about the operation. In the survey, big majorities of Republicans and political independents said they found the program to be acceptable while Democrats were split.

President Bush made an unscheduled appearance yesterday before White House reporters to defend his administration's efforts to investigate terrorism and criticize public disclosure of secret intelligence operations. But he did not directly acknowledge the existence of the NSA records-gathering program or answer reporters' questions about it.

By a 56 percent to 42 percent margin, Americans said it was appropriate for the news media to have disclosed the existence of this secret government program.

A total of 502 randomly selected adults were interviewed Thursday night for this survey. Margin of sampling error is five percentage points for the overall results. The practical difficulties of doing a survey in a single night represents another potential source of error.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

Lemur
05-12-2006, 16:42
There's a really thorough legal analysis of the legality of the program here (http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/05/further-thoughts-on-lawfulness-of.html). Looks like candy for lawyers and law students.

drone
05-12-2006, 17:23
It's definitely not surprising, don't be shocked to find out some time later that even your credit cards and emails are looked at as well. It's all a matter of security, and personally, I don't care if my calls are listened to, so long as I don't get blown up by a terrorist attack.
So basically, the terrorists have won? You have no problems with your government collecting all kinds of information on you, not telling you about it, and not telling you how secure this data will be and who has access? You are willing to trust that this information will not be used against you for political reasons or as a result of bureaucratic bumbling (the more likely scenario)? All this, because there is a very, very, very small chance that you might die in a terrorist bombing. ~3000 people died from the 9/11 attacks, but we kill ourselves way more effeciently than the terrorists do. It's this culture of Fear that threatens the US, not some fanatics from across the waters. Americans are so preoccupied with not dying that they have forgotten how to live.

Should we be watchful? Yes. But not at the expense of turning into a police state.

Lemur
05-12-2006, 17:31
I'm not as worried as I should be. I have faith that the minute a Democrat takes the Presidency, all of the people who are okay with the lack of oversight and accountability will suddenly get interested in the division of powers again.

My guess is that the majority of the conservatives are okay with all of this because there's a "conservative" government in place. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

drone
05-12-2006, 17:57
Well, I used to classify myself as conservative, but that was old-school, small government-type conservative. Probably no surprise from my comment, I think the Libertarians are looking better and better. Shame they are a bunch of nutjobs. :no:

I'm not that worried about the phone logs either, but the tone of Tiberius's post struck a nerve. The "anything to keep us safe" mentality that has spread through American society really bothers me. What are we, sheep? It's not just terrorists, but many things in our daily lives that we fear irrationally. A person can die at anytime, we just need to accept this and move on.

I blame the baby boomer generation, bunch of coddled, spoiled brats! ~D

Joker85
05-12-2006, 18:52
I'm not as worried as I should be. I have faith that the minute a Democrat takes the Presidency, all of the people who are okay with the lack of oversight and accountability will suddenly get interested in the division of powers again.

My guess is that the majority of the conservatives are okay with all of this because there's a "conservative" government in place. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

And the opposite will come of most Democrats who are opposed to this now who said nothing of Echelon and Carnivore under Clinton.

Welcome to politics. Enjoy your stay.:laugh4:

Xiahou
05-12-2006, 18:56
I'm not as worried as I should be. I have faith that the minute a Democrat takes the Presidency, all of the people who are okay with the lack of oversight and accountability will suddenly get interested in the division of powers again.

My guess is that the majority of the conservatives are okay with all of this because there's a "conservative" government in place. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
This story is nothing.

First of all, this story was already reported in the NYT back in December- everyone seems to forget this -back then, many members here were trying to hitch it to the call survelliance program in an erroneous attempt to use it as proof of wholly domestic wiretaps when it was nothing of the sort. The timing of this story's re-release coincides suspiciously with the nomination of Hayden.

Second, collecting data like this is not unique to the Bush administration and is one of the primary functions of the NSA. Law enforcement can and regularly does request phone records from telcos and receives them without any judicial oversight.

This "new" story is little more than misleading and disengenuous reporting that has become so typical of our media nowadays. Its a total non-issue and certain Democratic politicians are truly behaving shamefully in their public responses to this.

Blodrast
05-12-2006, 20:57
I agree with drone on this.
About that survey - ok, 2/3 of Americans agree with the NSA's policies, the way they are implemented, and so on - but do they actually know what they're agreeing with ? Are people really that informed about Echelon, Carnivore, and the potential implications of all these things ?
I wouldn't bet money on that, to be honest - I think it's more a sign of apathy, and agreeing with whatever the government decides - after all, they know best, right ? That's why we voted them there. Anyway, I may be wrong, but, honestly, how many people do you think follow these issues ? I doubt it's too many. I _know_ many people who give their opinion in a poll, even if/when they don't have one. Heck, I was called to give mine in a poll that I had absolutely no clue about, and I told that to the guy - repeatedly, but he insisted, and, out of pity/politeness, I eventually went ahead with it.

And while I also agree that this is nothing new, and it is nothing necessarily huge in and by itself, it is yet another step in the grand scheme of things. drone is right - look at all these laws and initiatives, all spawned by, and feeding on what ? The fear. The fear of terrorists, of bombs, attacks, and so on. Look at the brits, at the spaniards - they had terrorist attacks, too, but that didn't drastically affect their laws, or their attitude, or their way of life. Think about all the things that have become different after 9/11 in the US, and you might be surprised how many of them there are...

I also have a problem with people who so easily renounce their privacy for "the greater good".
How can you be convinced that it is absolutely necessary to begin with ? How can you be convinced it will be used properly, and not abused ? How can you know what all that data and information be used for ? Do you not care at all if everything you do, buy, eat, everywhere you go, absolutely everything about you will be known ?
I don't think you should give it up that easily, just 'cause "we need to catch the terrorists"...
So much for freedom...

Blodrast
05-12-2006, 21:00
This story is nothing.

First of all, this story was already reported in the NYT back in December- everyone seems to forget this -back then, many members here were trying to hitch it to the call survelliance program in an erroneous attempt to use it as proof of wholly domestic wiretaps when it was nothing of the sort. The timing of this story's re-release coincides suspiciously with the nomination of Hayden.

Second, collecting data like this is not unique to the Bush administration and is one of the primary functions of the NSA. Law enforcement can and regularly does request phone records from telcos and receives them without any judicial oversight.

This "new" story is little more than misleading and disengenuous reporting that has become so typical of our media nowadays. Its a total non-issue and certain Democratic politicians are truly behaving shamefully in their public responses to this.

Logically speaking, from a rational point of view, your approach makes a lot of sense.
But let me ask this, though: is there a line that we should draw, somewhere ? Is there a limit to all the laws and initiatives that affect your freedom/privacy ? Do you think there should be one ? How do you think that should be established ?
Going to a somewhat extreme (but maybe not that far in the future) scenario, if 2/3 of Americans feel it's okay to execute any suspected terrorist, on sight, as soon as they are caught, without an investigation, arrest, or anything else, and such a law is voted, would that be okay ?
How far ? Where do we stop ?

Lemur
05-12-2006, 21:54
Newt Gingrich doesn't seem to agree with Xihaou:


COLMES: Then he said when it came out a little while ago that there was some wiretapping he said it only applies to international communications. And now we're finding something else. So it just seems we’re not getting a consistent story here, are we?

GINGRICH: No. You're not.

COLMES: Why not?

GINGRICH: Look, I'm not-Alan, I’m not going to defend the indefensible. The Bush administration has an obligation to level with the American people. And I'm prepared to defend a very aggressive anti-terrorist campaign, and I'm prepared to defend the idea that the government ought to know who’s making the calls, as long as that information is only used against terrorists, and as long as the Congress knows that it’s underway.

But I don’t think the way they've handled this can be defended by reasonable people. It is sloppy. It is contradictory, and frankly for normal Americans, it makes no sense to listen to these three totally different explanations.

Lemur
05-12-2006, 21:57
Neither does Scarborough ... (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12756832/)


Now, for liberals who‘ve long been going against almost all of these issues to defend privacy, the news has to be disturbing. But no less so the conservatives who have fought national ID cards and gun registration for years out of fear of big government.

Now, whatever you consider yourself, friends, you should be afraid. You should be very afraid. With over 200 million Americans targeted, this domestic spying program is so widespread, it is so random, it is so far removed from focusing on al Qaeda suspects that the president was talking about today, that it‘s hard to imagine any intelligence program in U.S. history being so susceptible to abuse.

You know, I served on the Judiciary Committee and the Armed Service Committee in Congress for four years, and no program I studied while using security clearances ever came close to the scope of this massive spy program. It is dangerous, it breaks FCC laws, and it endangers all Americans‘ right to privacy.

KafirChobee
05-13-2006, 04:42
What it is. Think "NUMB3RS" - as in the TV show. It is an enabler that will allow judiciary departments at all levels to call into question the activities of others that a "possible" suspect has called on their phone.

Of course, it is in the fine tradition of dictatorial gestapo style methodology. But, gee doesn't it seem cool? Just think! By convincing the public that this is a "good thing" (like banning smoking from restraurants - I remember school in 1959 Arkansas - during the "breaks" all the kids and teachers that smoked ... smoking together - and that was middle-school). See, to be convincing on the need to subvert others rights to protect the greater good - do so with baby steps. First go after those that are vulnerable to attack, then move on to those that disagree with the agenda, then attack the opponents patriotism, then say that it is all for their safety and the nations security.

National Security is always a clean sell - what patriot is ever going to question anything being sold under that banner? Works every time - for some. Further, the unpatriotic others just don't see the "BIG Picture" (that our leaders can't tell us about for National security reasons) - or, maybe they do. Thing is those still swallowing the "pill" can't see past their prejudice of the others that have gotten past theirs (political prejudices, that is).

Accept that it is a good idea for the accumulation of recorded phone calls - and one accepts that it will be OK for a government representative to come into your home and search it because a friend of yours was arrested for sedition - his crime ... he failed the right of way at a stopsign. Or, that you spoke with a known "wetback", or that a friend spoke with a possible suspected meth dealer, or that a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend .... may have _____________.

Get the picture?

Xiahou
05-13-2006, 08:06
it breaks FCC lawsWell, that's flat out wrong. Scarborough sounds confused- as Ive said, requesting and recieving calling records from telcos without judicial oversight is pretty standard procedure for law-enforcement... Im not sure whether these people are just dumb, or trying to drum up ratings- either way, they're not laying out the facts.

As to Gingrich, Ive given up on him long ago. From what Ive heard from him, he's been criticizing the administration for quite awhile and is mulling a presidential run. The way he started the "earmark" ball rolling, Im seriously beginning to doubt that he was ever the small-government conservative he made himself out to be (dont get me wrong- Bush sure as hell isnt either).

Either way, Gingrich and Scarborough are clearly talking crap in the excerpt quotes- gathering phone records is legal, has had judicial review and was most recently reinforced in the Patriot act (see National Security Letters).

Now, you can try to argue that gathering call records should be made illegal, but to say it is currently illegal doesnt jive with reality.

BHCWarman88
05-13-2006, 16:58
I

This is the part that bothers me. It’s a SECRET program; these sources should be arrested for treason.






if it is Secret,why the Hell they even make it public?? arrest them,and isn't the punishment for Teason,the goold old fasion Hanging??



I was listening to Lou Dobbs(think I spell his name right) on CNN yesterday and one viewer e-mail in saying


"If you want to send a Message to Bush,just pick up the phone and say
HEY BUSH,ARE YOU LISTENING!?!?"

|OCS|Virus
05-14-2006, 02:27
I've already known about it for a long time, it doesn't surprise me now and didn't then. Although it infuriates me beyond rational thought, but what am I supposed to do? Not use the phone?

I've done nothing wrong, and I don't appreciate being treated like a terrorist just because I want to have a phone. Such information records should not be kept by anyone including the phone companies.

And for anyone who doesn't know about this already they do track E-mails and Google is keeping records of IP addresses and what searches they do. Google has been tracking since about a year after it originated {2001 I think?}. The only safe way to exchange information is through word of mouth. But be careful, big brother may still be watching.

{rant}
Since none of the people here seem to have the spine to say that they don't want they're conversations listened into. Yeah Bush 'says' that they don't listen in, but then again Bush {and any presidential administration for that matter democrat or republican} sais a lot of things. If we are 'just' learning now that they listen in, imagine what you don't know.

It sickens me how willing some people are to just roll over and be cowed into whatever the government wants to do supposedly "for you safety". Your a fool if you think the same people that would listen into a phone conversation, just because he could, wouldn't sell you into slavery if he thought he could make a big pile of cash and stay safe himself while he was at it.

They say America is supposed to be the land of the free, but freedom of what? When you have your conversations and E-mails monitored where can you go where your not being told what to do or spied on? How free could you possibly be under surveillance like this? {/rant}

Most things I'm not this 'liberal' on, but this in particular is annoying. It's like having an annoying younger brother who won't stop bothering you. :wall:

Tribesman
05-14-2006, 09:00
if it is Secret,why the Hell they even make it public??
Well it is public in part because of legal action concerning phone companies not turning over the records because they think the request for the records is illegal .

Brenus
05-14-2006, 10:11
“Personally, I have limited concerns”: Same thing with me, but for other reasons. They won’t have time to listen to every tape. Just imagine how many times WE spoke about terrorism, using key words which should in principle awake the warning system? So, if the NSA wants to spent US taxes payers to analyse what WE say, fine with me. At least, the analyst will have a job and will be able to take care of his/her family.:laugh4:

And, anyway, all this superb technology, satellites and all very well equip special units, Osama still at large… Perhaps they think he is in the USA? He isn’t… Is he?:inquisitive:

drone
05-16-2006, 15:32
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/05/federal_source_.html

Federal Source to ABC News: We Know Who You're Calling

May 15, 2006 10:33 AM

Brian Ross and Richard Esposito Report:

A senior federal law enforcement official tells ABC News the government is tracking the phone numbers we (Brian Ross and Richard Esposito) call in an effort to root out confidential sources.

"It's time for you to get some new cell phones, quick," the source told us in an in-person conversation.

ABC News does not know how the government determined who we are calling, or whether our phone records were provided to the government as part of the recently-disclosed NSA collection of domestic phone calls.

Other sources have told us that phone calls and contacts by reporters for ABC News, along with the New York Times and the Washington Post, are being examined as part of a widespread CIA leak investigation.

One former official was asked to sign a document stating he was not a confidential source for New York Times reporter James Risen.

Our reports on the CIA's secret prisons in Romania and Poland were known to have upset CIA officials. The CIA asked for an FBI investigation of leaks of classified information following those reports.

People questioned by the FBI about leaks of intelligence information say the CIA was also disturbed by ABC News reports that revealed the use of CIA predator missiles inside Pakistan.

Under Bush Administration guidelines, it is not considered illegal for the government to keep track of numbers dialed by phone customers.

The official who warned ABC News said there was no indication our phones were being tapped so the content of the conversation could be recorded.

A pattern of phone calls from a reporter, however, could provide valuable clues for leak investigators.

Interesting, if linked to the database. Judicial oversight is soooo last century.

Xiahou
05-16-2006, 15:46
There arent tapes- it's just phone records.

[QUOTE=drone]http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/...l_source_.htmlIf someone is leaking national security info, they're within their rights to investigate who is doing so. There's no indication that this would be part of the NSA program- as I've said numerous times, it's standard procedure for law enforcement to request and recieve phone records without a court order. You dont have to like it, but that doesnt make it illegal. :shrug: