View Full Version : Hirschi Ali is a very naughty girl....
This is going to be fun. Our champion of free speech spoke pretty freely when she had to give a reason to stay among us, or better, she lied. She lied about her war-past, and is probably very much able to overcum her sexual problems. Now what doth this mean asked thou, well that Iron Rita is probably putting her on the plane to africa because everyone should get the same treatment, and lying is lying even if you are a world famous politician. Me grabs some nuts and enjoy the ride.
Dutch_guy
05-14-2006, 11:51
Yes, this is going to prove very interesting, especially with the coming vote for leader of the VVD ( a dutch liberal political party, please note that a dutch liberal is not by definition the same as US liberal ).
The weird thing is, is that this issue was raised a couple of years ago, then the case was ''closed'' and now it turns up again...and now why would that be ~;)
:balloon2:
Kralizec
05-14-2006, 14:27
That she lied about her asylum request was 'known' for some time apparently. But I had certainly never heard about it before.
Her nationalilty should certainly be revoked.
That she lied about her asylum request was 'known' for some time apparently. But I had certainly never heard about it before.
Her nationalilty should certainly be revoked.
Yes, rules are rules, there is no way we could let her stay, it just wouldn't be fair. She should seek asylum in the US, I am sure they will welcome her with open arms. As for now, Rita has no choice. Can't say I feel very bad about letting her go, she isn't payed to make movies.
Duke Malcolm
05-14-2006, 15:08
Could a link (English, if possible) be provided, please? This sounds somewhat interesting.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
05-14-2006, 15:39
if this were the U.K. and she were a terror suspect wanted by, say, Algerian authorities, she would not be deported.
Given her current situation (I imagine a warm welcome does not await her in Somalia), would she not now be entitled to asylum?
if this were the U.K. and she were a terror suspect wanted by, say, Algerian authorities, she would not be deported.
Given her current situation (I imagine a warm welcome does not await her in Somalia), would she not now be entitled to asylum?
With a new procedure, yes. This isn't really about Hirschi Ali mind you, but about Rita Verdonk, our carrotmunching how could you teh horror lefties pwning minister of integration who isn't intimidated by media(and other) attacks. They are trying to discredit her reputation of being hard yet fair, just about every political program on the public network and every newspaper is about her the past few months.
Here's a link (http://freeandjustice.blogspot.com/2006/05/dutch-minister-of-integration-starting.html), since nobody else has posted one. It's even in English.
Duke Malcolm
05-14-2006, 18:31
Excellent. Thank you, Lemur.
if this were the U.K. and she were a terror suspect wanted by, say, Algerian authorities, she would not be deported.
Given her current situation (I imagine a warm welcome does not await her in Somalia), would she not now be entitled to asylum?
Haven't heard it myself, but my father said it was because she lied about being from Somalia and is actually from Kenia. If she said she was from Kenia she might not have been given asylum if I'm correct. That's what's all the fuss is about. I was told she admitted some 4 years ago about this. If this were true and she was not at risk in Kenia, then I'm quite baffled as to why no action had been undertaken back then.
Still rules are rules, if she can safely return and live in Kenia, then put her on a plane and be rid of her. No exceptions!
Taffy_is_a_Taff
05-14-2006, 18:51
']Haven't heard it myself, but my father said it was because she lied about being from Somalia and is actually from Kenia. If she said she was from Kenia she might not have been given asylum if I'm correct. That's what's all the fuss is about. I was told she admitted some 4 years ago about this. If this were true and she was not at risk in Kenia, then I'm quite baffled as to why no action had been undertaken back then.
Still rules are rules, if she can safely return and live in Kenia, then put her on a plane and be rid of her. No exceptions!
I read that she lived for a while in Kenya before going to Europe but that she is Somali. Either way, I doubt she's be safe in either place.
Duke Malcolm
05-14-2006, 19:52
Kenya is much safer than Somalia...
Taffy_is_a_Taff
05-14-2006, 20:04
Kenya is much safer than Somalia...
Probably not for Ms. Ali...
Duke Malcolm
05-14-2006, 20:08
Hardly, it is democratic, diverse. It is a rare star in Africa. Uncomparable with the government-less, rogue militia-ridden, pirate-infested Somalia.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
05-14-2006, 20:13
Hardly, it is democratic, diverse. It is a rare star in Africa. Uncomparable with the government-less, rogue militia-ridden, pirate-infested Somalia.
Malcolm, I'd be willing to make a bet that if you send her to Kenya then she will be killed.
It's not general lawlessness that's a threat to her so much as that she is a target for a certain group of people.
It doesn't matter if it's democratic and diverse, so's the Netherlands and she needs 24/7 personal security there. I imagine she wouldn't get such security provided in Kenya.
Duke Malcolm
05-14-2006, 20:39
Then that would probably not warrant asylum in the first place. Simply having someone come after one is not a great anough threat for asylum, only if the government is coming after one for unethical reasons, or somesuch thing. Her issues there will most likely be personal, not political.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
05-14-2006, 20:55
Then that would probably not warrant asylum in the first place. Simply having someone come after one is not a great anough threat for asylum, only if the government is coming after one for unethical reasons, or somesuch thing. Her issues there will most likely be personal, not political.
people get asylum for all sorts of threats. I am not well enough aquainted with Dutch asylum laws to comment.
I'd be surprised if she didn't qualify though. As Somalia has no functioning government at the moment, I imagine that would mean no Somalis qualify for asylum anywhere if our governments were using your definition. I really don't see how only government threats can be good enough for asylum. What about that Afghan Christian the other week? He got asylum in the west even though his government said they wouldn't kill him. Of course lots of other Afghans said they would, but that's just personal and no reason for protecting someone.
I take it you now accept that Ms. Ali would not be safe in Kenya, despite it's diversity and democracy.
Tribesman
05-14-2006, 22:23
This is going to be fun. Our champion of free speech spoke pretty freely when she had to give a reason to stay among us, or better, she lied.
Ummmm...thats wierd , didn't you start a topic about how it was so terrible that the "champion of free speech" had to leave her apartment ?
Yeah this is gonna be fun Frag , hows your memory ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Ser Clegane
05-14-2006, 22:42
didn't you start a topic about how it was so terrible that the "champion of free speech" had to leave her apartment ?
Yeah this is gonna be fun Frag , hows your memory ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Just for the record: Actually Atilius started that thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=64153) (and Fragony agreed with the people who wanted her out - so there is consistency)
Tribesman
05-14-2006, 22:51
so there is consistency
Yes Sercleg , and you know there is consistancy when it concerns race or creed .
Kralizec
05-15-2006, 12:11
Here's a link (http://freeandjustice.blogspot.com/2006/05/dutch-minister-of-integration-starting.html), since nobody else has posted one. It's even in English.
You've just reinforced my old aversion to bloggers. What a load of BS.
If you don't like the link (and nobody's saying you have to) then post a couple of your own. I was just responding to the fact that English-speakers on the Org had no article or text of any sort on which to base their discussion.
Sheesh. Touchy.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
05-15-2006, 16:34
Apparently she is resigning and relocating to the U.S.A.
Dutch_guy
05-15-2006, 18:16
Apparently she is resigning and relocating to the U.S.A.
Yes, Washington to be precise.
Apparently she's going to work in a think-tank, in DC.
:balloon2:
Yes, Washington to be precise.
Apparently she's going to work in a think-tank, in DC.
:balloon2:
Crap, one more car on the roads in the morning...
A.Saturnus
05-15-2006, 21:23
Then that would probably not warrant asylum in the first place. Simply having someone come after one is not a great anough threat for asylum, only if the government is coming after one for unethical reasons, or somesuch thing. Her issues there will most likely be personal, not political.
Her issues are just as personal as that of Salman Rushdie.
Louis VI the Fat
05-15-2006, 22:05
Yes, Washington to be precise.
Apparently she's going to work in a think-tank, in DC.:furious3:
Again America manages to attract foreign talent, where Europe chases it away.
Really, I've complained about it before. America attracts hundreds of thousands of Chinese mathematicians, Indian computer wizards, Arab intellectuals. Their experience with immigration has made them unafraid to just set a quotum and fill it (for the most part) with talented, skilled immigrants. America knows how to cherry-picks immigrants.
The two main currents in European immigration policy are: 'keep them the hell away' and 'that's racist! You nazi!'. It is impossible for Europe to just settle for a mature immigration policy. With the end result of allowing entry only to those who are the most pitiful, or those who perpetuate the vast unskilled and semi-illiterate underclass by marrying into them.
Reenk Roink
05-15-2006, 22:08
Well Europe 'cherry-picked it's own immigrants too, at least in the beginning. The continent did need laborers...
Strike For The South
05-15-2006, 22:09
Louie me boy America has both becuase we take in so many. You give the goverment to much credit
Louis VI the Fat
05-15-2006, 22:46
Well Europe 'cherry-picked it's own immigrants too, at least in the beginning. The continent did need laborers...Oh so true. Well we got what we asked for indeed, unskilled workers. Followed by their entire villages coming over.
Now we need skilled workers and professionals with advanced degrees, but keep the gates closed out of fear.
You give the goverment to much creditWould I ever pass up on an opportunity to praise teh US government? :balloon2:
God bless America. :bow:
I agree with A. Saturnus, there are clear parallels with the Rushdie affair. With most asylum cases, I suspect there's little risk of the person involved actually being killed for their views. This is a clear exception, unless you want to pretend Theo van Gogh is alive and well and living on Mars. Ali is probably not completely safe anywhere, but the US is probably as safe as anywhere in such a case - as Rushdie himself seems to have judged.
Fragony, I confess I don't understand your perspective on all this. I am sure I recall you posting here about how distressed you were - understandably - when Theo van Gogh was butchered for being outspoken. Isn't Hirschi Ali at risk from the same kind of people as killed van Gogh, for precisely the same reason? Yet you post distasteful sexual innuendo about her in this thread ("overcum her sexual problems") and a previous one. Why the lack of corresponding sympathy in her case?
This isn't about Hirsi Ali, it is about Rita Verdonk. It is a winwin situation for the left, either Verdonk has to bend the rules and let her stay, damaging her reputation of being hard but fair, or Hirsi has to go, which means they got rid of an opponent they have no idea what to do about. She is hated by the left because she has an opinion, and her dark skin makes it impossible to pull the racist card. This is all politics at it's finest. As for me, I agree with louis, it's a waste of talent. But I think she is better of in the USA, this country is too small for someone like her. As for the innuendo, what can I say I am vulgar.
I seem to be designated link boy for this thread. Here's the latest. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4986418.stm)
Kralizec
05-16-2006, 14:39
Louis: you can disagree with our immigration rules all you want (I don't like them all that much myself), but I have yet to have anyone give me a good reason why we should break the rules to let her stay.
Honestly, you can yell it out to me as many times as you want how we're losing an outspoken and talented politician, the fact is that she lied in order to stay in the Netherlands (saying she was a war refugee, while she stayed safely in Kenia and then in Germany), and that in similar cases people had their nationality revoked. There's a 12 year expiration period after wich you're safe, but she's only had her nationality since 1997. Seems clear to me.
Rules are rules.
Besides that, and irrelevant to her right to stay, it more and more seems like she never deserved her icon status to begin with. Like Frag said, the reason she's popular is that she can insult Islam without being labeled a racist. What prompted the TV broadcast was a revelation that she lied about her arranged marriage. Her life was never as dramatic as she made it out to be.
A.Saturnus
05-16-2006, 21:20
Louis: you can disagree with our immigration rules all you want (I don't like them all that much myself), but I have yet to have anyone give me a good reason why we should break the rules to let her stay.
Because otherwise, the rules may break her? Are rules there for the people or the people for the rules? A rule serves a certain function, if it fails that function, the rule should be ignored. The spirit of the rule is to protect people who are in danger because of political, ethnical or religious reasons. And that applies to her. So if the Netherlands let her stay, they may break the letter of the rule, but not the spirit.
And lets also not forget that in Europe, asylum for political fugitives is not a privilege, it's a right.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
05-16-2006, 21:41
And lets also not forget that in Europe, asylum for political fugitives is not a privilege, it's a right.
:laugh4:
Because otherwise, the rules may break her? Are rules there for the people or the people for the rules? A rule serves a certain function, if it fails that function, the rule should be ignored. The spirit of the rule is to protect people who are in danger because of political, ethnical or religious reasons. And that applies to her. So if the Netherlands let her stay, they may break the letter of the rule, but not the spirit.
But we can't give someone a different treatment, it wouldn't be fair to others. Law is a system, not a tailor. You remember the Taida Pasic case? Because that has everything to do with what is happening now. It amazes me (well not really) that no journalist asked the obvious question: 'Miss Hirsi Ali, do you believe there is a connection between the way Verdonk handled the Pasic case and Zembla's (the documentory that started it all) decision to once again tell us what we allready know?' Verdonk had no choice but applying the law because that is what she has always done, and breaking the rules now would create an air of benefiting the biggies whenever we see fit. Hirsi Ali was sacrificed by Verdonk, but it was Zembla that started this all, a particulary nasty trick of the left.
Kralizec
05-17-2006, 14:16
I read up on the case. There are quite a lot of misunderstandings going on here, it seems.
Hirsi Ali is in absolutely no danger of being deported. Her refugee status (A status) was given back in 1992, and after 12 years or more it can't be revoked. Should she lose her passport (wich she will, unless she takes it to court where she probably has a good case) she'll fall back on that A status and can stay as a legal refugee. The only real consequense is that she can't be a parliament member anymore, as she lacks the required nationality.
Furthermore once her nationality is revoked, she could easily let her self get naturalized again with no trouble in a new procedure. If she wanted to stay, she'd do just that. But even before these trouble surfaced she was planning on moving to the US.
Some people (especially Americans it seems) think that just because she's arguably talented and spouts rousing language, she should get preferential treatment over non-famous people in the same circumstances. I disagree with that :no:
I don't like or dislike her. Occasionally she hits the nail on the head with her critique of Islamist practices, but other then her aversion against Islamists she has very little real substance. She originally was a PvdA (Labour party) member, but jumped ship to the VVD (right wing libertarian) because the former didn't want to put her on an electable slot in their candidate list. And now she's jumping over to America because a more glorious carreer awaits her there. I don't resent her for that, but it's clear now that she's pure ambition with little political substance, and not somebody I'd ever vote for.
EDIT: grammar
Taffy_is_a_Taff
05-17-2006, 14:52
I read up on the case. There are quite a lot of misunderstandings going on here, it seems.
Hirsi Ali is in absolutely no danger of being deported. Her refugee status (A status) was given back in 1992, and after 12 years or more it can't be revoked. Should she lose her passport (wich she will, unless she takes it to court where she probably has a good case) she'll fall back on that A status and can stay as a legal refugee. The only real consequense is that she can't be a parliament member anymore, as she lacks the required nationality.
Furthermore once her nationality is revoked, she could easily let her self get naturalized again with no trouble in a new procedure. If she wanted to stay, she'd do just that. But even before these trouble surfaced she was planning on moving to the US.
Some people (especially Americans it seems) think that just because she's arguably talented and spouts rousing language, she should get preferential treatment over non-famous people in the same circumstances. I disagree with that :no:
I don't like or dislike her. Occasionally she hits the nail on the head with her critique of Islamist practices, but other then her aversion against Islamists she has very little real substance. She originally was a PvdA (Labour party) member, but jumped ship to the VVD (right wing libertarian) because the former didn't want to put her on an electable slot in their candidate list. And now she's jumping over to America because a more glorious carreer awaits her there. I don't resent her for that, but it's clear now that she's pure ambition with little political substance, and not somebody I'd ever vote for.
EDIT: grammar
so it's perfect timing for her move, she can act all persecuted by the Dutch govt. and the immigration minister can act all tough?
She'll probably have a much nicer life in the U.S.A. anyway. Hasn't she been forced into hiding because of the death threats? America is a big place, and she could probably live much more openly here.
She'll probably have a much nicer life in the U.S.A. anyway. Hasn't she been forced into hiding because of the death threats? America is a big place, and she could probably live much more openly here.
If you are a high profile person in the Netherlands and you don't get death threats on daily bases from fundi-muslims and extreme-leftist activists you have probably done something wrong.
Dutch_guy
05-17-2006, 17:42
She'll probably have a much nicer life in the U.S.A. anyway. Hasn't she been forced into hiding because of the death threats? America is a big place, and she could probably live much more openly here.
Yes, I think so too. America is a bit more open minded towerds those kind of people I think.
Though, I don't think death treats 'll stop in the US, she's bound to say something to offend some group over there, as she did over here too....
:balloon2:
A.Saturnus
05-17-2006, 19:18
But we can't give someone a different treatment, it wouldn't be fair to others. Law is a system, not a tailor. You remember the Taida Pasic case? Because that has everything to do with what is happening now. It amazes me (well not really) that no journalist asked the obvious question: 'Miss Hirsi Ali, do you believe there is a connection between the way Verdonk handled the Pasic case and Zembla's (the documentory that started it all) decision to once again tell us what we allready know?' Verdonk had no choice but applying the law because that is what she has always done, and breaking the rules now would create an air of benefiting the biggies whenever we see fit. Hirsi Ali was sacrificed by Verdonk, but it was Zembla that started this all, a particulary nasty trick of the left.
I don't want her to get a different treatment, I just want that anyone who has to fear to be killed for political reasons can find a save place in Europe. If we do not offer a shelter for those who may face unjustified death, we are responsible for their death. But since this is only about revoking her nationality I guess there isn't a problem here.
Hirsi Ali is in absolutely no danger of being deported. Her refugee status (A status) was given back in 1992, and after 12 years or more it can't be revoked. Should she lose her passport (wich she will, unless she takes it to court where she probably has a good case) she'll fall back on that A status and can stay as a legal refugee. The only real consequense is that she can't be a parliament member anymore, as she lacks the required nationality.
Furthermore once her nationality is revoked, she could easily let her self get naturalized again with no trouble in a new procedure. If she wanted to stay, she'd do just that. But even before these trouble surfaced she was planning on moving to the US.
Thank you, that puts things into persepctive.
Breaking news. (http://www.trouw.nl/hetnieuws/nederland/article318849.ece/Tweede-Kamerfractie+%2F+Persverklaring+Ayaan+Hirsi+Ali+%28Engels) Wow.
Kralizec
05-17-2006, 21:44
so it's perfect timing for her move, she can act all persecuted by the Dutch govt. and the immigration minister can act all tough?
Nah, I think she's taking it rather sportively. Verdonk now is scolded at by the majority of our parliament, yet from what I hear most Dutch people support her decision.
Me, I don't think that she had another choice except breaking the rules. Wich is why I'm glad she did it, it's not a heart breaking case IMO.
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