View Full Version : illiterate in America
KafirChobee
05-16-2006, 09:56
No child left behind ... behind what? The 49 nations that are more literate?
Saw this in PB: 20% of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. 17% know the earth orbits the sun ... but, think it does so every 24 hours (not every 365 days). We be smart ... we be knowings these things, we listens real goods in church. j/k (btw)
America is ranked 50th in literacy in the nations of the world. The wealthiest (well, for a few of us ... I suppose) nation, and the dumbest people in civilized mankind. Of course our religious fervor is equal to alquaedas so that must mean something? Eh?
Why are Americans stupid? 50th? That is a national disgrace. Especially when our budget should afford that every child attend Harvard or Yale or State (wtf).
It is a travesty. How did we allow it. Why is it permitted. And, why do some think it is OK?
Personally, without the GI Bill, I never could have afforded my initial college education. To think that there are 20% (maybe they mean 6 yr olds) that believe the sun revolves around earth is disturbing. I mean, I was explained "God's Plan" when I was like 4 .... you know, how God's time ain't necessarily ours, and the revolving things. Maybe, the 20% slept through ... like everything they were ever told?
Thing is, of all the modern nations ... America is the dumbest. Hands down. Mores the pity, don't you think? Especially since we have the ability to eliminate the world as we know it .......... oh, never mind Bush43 already did that. j/k (sorta)
Yeah, we're pretty bad in the education department. How do you propose we fix it?
I know some of the problems are a general distain for education, no one takes it seriously in school. Should we have a final graduation exam mandatory for a diploma or something?
Also seeing as there really isn't a national school system and each state having it's own Department of Education doesn't really help. Should we centralize it more, have a standardized system nationwide.
Also there's the problems of teachers and funding, how can we make sure the money is spent properly? How can teachers be fairly evaluated so we know they're not just shamming?
As a resident of Hawaii which has one of the worst education systems in the nation I really hope for change. I'm already in University but I'd still like to see the system changed. My brother is a prime example, he can't point out most nations on a map. His use of english incorporates too much slang (I seen instead of I saw or have seen). And when it comes to science he only knows the basics. He does know though that the Earth revolves around the Sun!:balloon2:
How do you Euros educate your youth? Do you feel your system is adequate?
You are being to hard on yourselve, there was a poll lately that show that the majority of the dutchies think WW2 started because of the holocaust, and we are considered one of the most advanced nations in the world. There are also quite a bit of illiterate 50+ people, 20% or so.
Byzantine Mercenary
05-16-2006, 11:33
double post!
Byzantine Mercenary
05-16-2006, 11:33
No child left behind ... behind what? The 49 nations that are more literate?
Saw this in PB: 20% of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. 17% know the earth orbits the sun ... but, think it does so every 24 hours (not every 365 days). We be smart ... we be knowings these things, we listens real goods in church. j/k (btw)
America is ranked 50th in literacy in the nations of the world. The wealthiest (well, for a few of us ... I suppose) nation, and the dumbest people in civilized mankind. Of course our religious fervor is equal to alquaedas so that must mean something? Eh?
Why are Americans stupid? 50th? That is a national disgrace. Especially when our budget should afford that every child attend Harvard or Yale or State (wtf).
It is a travesty. How did we allow it. Why is it permitted. And, why do some think it is OK?
Personally, without the GI Bill, I never could have afforded my initial college education. To think that there are 20% (maybe they mean 6 yr olds) that believe the sun revolves around earth is disturbing. I mean, I was explained "God's Plan" when I was like 4 .... you know, how God's time ain't necessarily ours, and the revolving things. Maybe, the 20% slept through ... like everything they were ever told?
Thing is, of all the modern nations ... America is the dumbest. Hands down. Mores the pity, don't you think? Especially since we have the ability to eliminate the world as we know it .......... oh, never mind Bush43 already did that. j/k (sorta)
Yeah you probably need more exams but I would suggest less then we Brits have! :laugh4:
I wouldn't say that the church was to blame for this, it’s a separate issue if you disagree with their teachings really, although creationists don't help much, it would have to be a pretty medieval version of Christianity you have experienced! :laugh4:
Btw Islam did use to be (and still is in most respects) a sound supporter of scientific endeavours and the advancement of knowledge (arguably they made more worthwhile developments in maths then the Greeks)
...and the dumbest people in civilized mankind.
Why are Americans stupid?
Thing is, of all the modern nations ... America is the dumbest. Hands down.
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/horsesass/hst.jpg
doc_bean
05-16-2006, 12:52
America imports smart people to maintain the balance :oops:
rory_20_uk
05-16-2006, 13:06
Look at it this way: America is doing well (without the war the budget would almost balance).
Does it matter that many of the people in the country are very, very ignorant? As long as they can do their jobs and are happy everything else is merely icing.
As has been said, being on the receiving end of the "brain drain" means that the sall number of clever people is maintained.
Or you could do what the UK does:
1) Throw money at education. If it costs more, it must be better, right?
2) Masses of exams. That helps learning!
3) Increase the number of high grades. Ignore independant experts who say standards are in freefall.
4) If they're failing at 15, keep as many as possible in school until they're 21.
~:smoking:
Sjakihata
05-16-2006, 13:09
Good solution would be to double or 100 fold increase the budget, you can do that by reducing your defence (offence?) spendings by 0.1% ...
priorities
Duke Malcolm
05-16-2006, 13:14
Or you could do what the UK does:
1) Throw money at education. If it costs more, it must be better, right?
2) Masses of exams. That helps learning!
3) Increase the number of high grades. Ignore independant experts who say standards are in freefall.
4) If they're failing at 15, keep as many as possible in school until they're 21.
Or appoint an entire department with the job of telling children they are doing very well and are going to be successful, literate, and other such comforting things.
Of course, half of these children are concern with nothing other than their band which they are adamant will get a big break sometime soon and whimsically fail those infamous bell-jar exams and end up doing Politics, Psychology, and Film Studies at Napier University...
Yeah, we're pretty bad in the education department. How do you propose we fix it?
Step One: Break the teachers' unions. As long as our educators have the same mindset as 1950s auto workers, we won't get very far.
I'm not kidding. Every attempt to introduce meaningful reform into our public schools has been stymied by that fracking teachers' union.
Step One: Break the teachers' unions. As long as our educators have the same mindset as 1950s auto workers, we won't get very far.
I'm not kidding. Every attempt to introduce meaningful reform into our public schools has been stymied by that fracking teachers' union.
I agree
The part that Kafir ignores in his rant is if parents don't care about child's education then the child will not be receptive to recieving the education, so the amount of money spent on education is mote until this problem is addressed by the parents themselves.
The government can lead you to water, but it can not make you drink from the fountain of education if you don't want to.
So if you want to fix education you first have to address the entitlement society that Kafir's generation has enabled, and mine continues to propagate. :no:
Sjakihata
05-16-2006, 14:44
The government can lead you to water, but it can not make you drink from the fountain of education if you don't want to.
Sure it can. All it needs is a few strong men, a funnel and a tube - there you go, fresh water!
yesdachi
05-16-2006, 14:46
There are surveys like this published all the time. For the most part I think they are bs, many are taken on the street during the middle of the day, hello, most people with a brain are working in the middle of the day, not walking around. It seems like the jobless idiots are always the ones that get to represent all of us. Of course some of the surveys and studies are more valid and I have no doubt the US sits back in 50th place, our school system stinks for the masses. However, it is decent for the gifted and makes it easy for those who are smart to advance (I’m speaking in general). If you do well in school colleges and universities and even the gov. are more than willing to give you all kinds of grants and loans to attend higher education, which practically everyone needs because we don’t learn diddly in standard school.
I have never been a fan of our education system and I think the blame for the current state of education system falls square on the shoulders of the teachers and school administration. Anyone can argue that it is the governments fault but it really is not, unless you want to blame them for not stepping in and fixing things when they are obviously broken. The schools basically get money from the gov. (3 layers) and are expected to do with it what is best for our kids. Sounds good, we should be able to trust our teachers and their administrators, right? Wrong! With a few exceptions they have sold us out for their own personal gain. They have been given tons of discretion to do what’s best, they get to choose the class books, write the curriculum and basically plan out the child’s entire education and yet somehow with all this freedom to make the best choices for our children we fall to 50th place in world rankings. Wtf.
IMO most schools show no real commitment to the kids and have turned into a business to make money, and a cheep product (dumb kids) is the result.
Lemur’s point about the teachers union is spot on. I have seen reports where pedophile teachers are given fake teaching jobs away from kids (because they administration knows they cant be trusted around them) because it is virtually impossible to fire them because the teachers unions put up so many rules and appeals and such that it ends up costing more money than to keep them employed in a fake position.
John Stossel has done some decent reporting on this sort of thing. Clicky (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_15_06_JS.html).
Hundreds of teachers the city calls incompetent, racist, or dangerous have been paid millions. And what do they do while they get paid? They sit in rubber rooms.
But, But… The US is lucky because our smart people are really smart and easily carry the rest of us. ~D
Sjakihata
05-16-2006, 14:55
I have never been a fan of our education system and I think the blame for the current state of education system falls square on the shoulders of the teachers and school administration. Anyone can argue that it is the governments fault but it really is not, unless you want to blame them for not stepping in and fixing things when they are obviously broken.
No, it's too easy to blame the teachers. But it is like riding through life with a pair of blinkers on. See the whole picture. Everyone is responsible, not just one part. With that sort of criticism rest assured nothing will get fixed.
Samurai Waki
05-16-2006, 15:11
the US's Education System is skewed as it is, the one size fits all is not an acceptable method of educating the young. What needs to be done, is that the Child should have regular elementary program until they are 12 years old. Then they take an exam, so if you score exceptionally high in mathematics then you should be transfered to a center that specializes in teaching mathematics, if you score high in Literature/English you should be transfered to a center that specializes in Literature/English, or if you do well at say...Sports you should be taken to a center that specializes in Athletics. Your Specialty School would emphasize your skills, but also of course would have a curriculum that taught the other basic courses. When you reach 14, you should take another test to see if your still on course with your education, if something has changed, say you score higher in your Literature skills then your math, you can opt to transfer. Then when you reach, say 16 you should take another test that delves into even more specialization, such as Geometry, Physics, Football, Soccer, History, Classics, Drama etc. etc.
If you just can't cut it, and fail at school You should be given the option of joining apprentice-ships that interest you, and give you similar accredation as graduating Highschool so you don't have to work at McDonalds for the rest of your life. Then if you decide that you want to pursue say, College, or the military you would then be very proficient in the skills that interest you the most. Thats the way it should be done, IMO.
Another thing that American College Students should consider, if they just can't afford College, is forming student unions. (even though they are currently illegal in the US). But what is the government going to do, if everyone did join a Union, and suddenly tuition goes through the roof, everyone just stops going to College and Stops paying and then they would need to lower tuition to get students to go back.
DemonArchangel
05-16-2006, 15:35
the US's Education System is skewed as it is, the one size fits all is not an acceptable method of educating the young. What needs to be done, is that the Child should have regular elementary program until they are 12 years old. Then they take an exam, so if you score exceptionally high in mathematics then you should be transfered to a center that specializes in teaching mathematics, if you score high in Literature/English you should be transfered to a center that specializes in Literature/English, or if you do well at say...Sports you should be taken to a center that specializes in Athletics. Your Specialty School would emphasize your skills, but also of course would have a curriculum that taught the other basic courses. When you reach 14, you should take another test to see if your still on course with your education, if something has changed, say you score higher in your Literature skills then your math, you can opt to transfer. Then when you reach, say 16 you should take another test that delves into even more specialization, such as Geometry, Physics, Football, Soccer, History, Classics, Drama etc. etc.
If you just can't cut it, and fail at school You should be given the option of joining apprentice-ships that interest you, and give you similar accredation as graduating Highschool so you don't have to work at McDonalds for the rest of your life. Then if you decide that you want to pursue say, College, or the military you would then be very proficient in the skills that interest you the most. Thats the way it should be done, IMO.
Dude, you can't just lock people in like that. That would kill America's social mobility, which is a major advantage America has over other nations. America's education system, although totally crappy (I don't think I've ever really learned anything in school), allows for people to choose what they want to do, or give them the ability to change their careers.
It's not about what you're good at or what you score high on, it's WHAT YOU WANT TO DO. Because I could do very well on a math exam, but I could hate math with a passion. Nobody likes doing what they hate, which would subsequently reduce productivity, which would then deplete the economy etc. etc. Anyway I'm ranting so um.... yea, you get my point right?
Step One: Break the teachers' unions. As long as our educators have the same mindset as 1950s auto workers, we won't get very far.
I'm not kidding. Every attempt to introduce meaningful reform into our public schools has been stymied by that fracking teachers' union.
Preach on brother. They are without a doubt the biggest obstacle to meaningful school reform- followed closely by our politicians.
In an above mentioned Stossel peice, a teacher's union official actually said on camera (not paraphrasing) "there's nothing that more money won't fix". :inquisitive:
This isnt about blaming the teacher's- many of them don't like the unions much more than I. The unions are more concerned with protecting their own interests than educating our children- that should stop.
Seamus Fermanagh
05-16-2006, 16:14
One of the lines I liked best in "Good Will Hunting" was the jibe about the one grad student having spent $50,000 to learn no more and not better than he might have learned on his own in a good library for no more than $50 in late-book fees.
Moral:
If you wish to learn, to educate yourself, and the resources are present, you can -- and no one can do it for you.
Corollary:
If you wish to remain ignorant of a subject, you will, and there is little that can be done to stop you. Or, as my less-than-eloquent father would say:
You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think.
Parents are the answer, and the ONLY element that can set the right tone for learning -- and the tone has been set before your child hits age 10. Children become imbued with the learning values they see demonstrated. Do you read books for entertainment? Watch the news? Read maps and discuss the value of ground and resources? Discuss political strategies and policies? Work at your own continuing education? Or do you really focus your time on watching how well Dale Jr. is gearing up for this Sunday or the important doings of Wisteria Lane?
As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
master of the puppets
05-16-2006, 16:16
...whenever people talk about "americas people" i always feel like i'm in some seperate country! my county is the 3rd richest in the country, and the first is only 20 minutes away, but we are not like beverly hills, nah, usually we're more like hicks as we are deep in the forests but property taxes are thru the roof. but those taxes (which are really driving the less affluent people away) pay for the great school system i go to now.
i consider myself to be a well versed human and american, i am ashamed but rightly say i look down my nose at idiots, i have maps of the world tacked on my wall and a globe in the corner, an astronomy map and a 6ft by 3ft book shelf filled to the brim with stories, history books, astronomy, and even very basic theories on experiment physics on the creation of the world.
Mabey its just my school but the teachers here are oppressivly dedicated to seeing us succeed, and excluding jocks cheerleaders and assorted idiots, many of us are pretty smart.
still the school system around here is crap, teachers here are way underpaid (as they complain so much, but mabey thats just them) so much so that they mostly live in PA where the taxes are lower. but our books are usually new and i'm typing this on one of the 30 computers in out library, surrounded by information with a brand new copy of dan browns "Angels & Demons" at my elbow.
so i can't truly understand what you guys are talking about as i am a intelligent both from personal venture and from a good school. and of course the earth revolves around the sun spinning once on its axis every 24 hours and making a full revolution of the giant ball of burning gas once every 365 days. :2thumbsup:
but come to think of it, 2 days ago my history teacher was explaining darwins theory and there were a few people who had it go right over there heads, one of them actually asked "so all animals are going to turn into humans?" such idiocy just makes me want to scream.
yesdachi
05-16-2006, 16:21
No, it's too easy to blame the teachers. But it is like riding through life with a pair of blinkers on. See the whole picture. Everyone is responsible, not just one part. With that sort of criticism rest assured nothing will get fixed.
Parents do play a part in the education of their children, as do some others, but realistically they only get to spend maybe 4-5 hours per day (not including weekends) with them max, and that doesn’t include errands, after school sports, playing with friends, games. How much time does a parent and school age kid actually spend together? 1-2 hours a day, maybe less. Teachers and school in general have a captive audience for around 8+ hours a day. Even if you take away breaks and lunches that’s considerably more time that with their parents, and they can’t escape! Kids are stuck there all the teacher needs to do is teach! I do realize there are difficult areas to teach in but they are few compared to the vast majority of schools located in regular old middle America. It may be easy to blame the teachers, but sometimes the easiest answer is the correct one.
Teaching is subjective in many aspects but if we held them to the same standards many of our employers hold us I don’t think there would be a teacher or administrator with a job. Can you even imagine your boss saying “our goal is to be the 50th best”, who works in conditions like that? If you’re the 50th best at anything you would be out of business. What’s the 50th best restaurant in your neighborhood? The 50th best newspaper in your city? Or the 50th best widget maker? I could keep going but I think you get my point, if you are the 50th your out of business, but for some reason (monopoly) our school system is still in business and our teachers still have their jobs (that they complain about all too often).
If fixing is the goal then identifying the problem is critical and the biggest problem I can identify is the teacher. Parents are partly responsible but they have identified that they are not teachers and have agreed to pay taxes to fund schools where “teachers” can teach their kids. Teachers have been given (and have taken) the job of teaching our kids and they are not fulfilling their obligations. With the freedoms and liberties that teachers and administrators have been given to run our schools they have no excuse for the sorry state our education system is in.
If teachers wanted to fix things they could, they have the freedoms and authority but choose not to because it is easier to go with the downward spiraling flow. We have hired sheep to teach our kids to be stupid.
America imports smart people to maintain the balance :oops:
indeed.
Good thing I have one of the best educations in the world lol.:laugh4:
I think a lot of it is exagerated. In every country there's a big percentage that doesn't know the earth turns around the sun (in about 365 days). All over the world there are people who aren't to bright. But they can be hard workers and if you ask me we need alot more of those then people who know everything about the Universe nowadays.
Avicenna
05-16-2006, 17:26
@Garvanko: Technically the sun isn't burning because there isn't the oxygen to allow the hydrogen fuel which is heated to combust, and therefore 'burn'. There aren't any flames on the sun.
@yesdachi: The parents do play a major role. No matter how much time you spend, your parents will remain your parents. You've known them since birth, and will probably have been on good terms for the most part. Even if you see them less than, say, a teacher from school, doesn't mean you're going to value the teacher's opinion more than your parents. Parents influence a child vastly.
the US's Education System is skewed as it is, the one size fits all is not an acceptable method of educating the young. What needs to be done, is that the Child should have regular elementary program until they are 12 years old. Then they take an exam, so if you score exceptionally high in mathematics then you should be transfered to a center that specializes in teaching mathematics, if you score high in Literature/English you should be transfered to a center that specializes in Literature/English, or if you do well at say...Sports you should be taken to a center that specializes in Athletics. Your Specialty School would emphasize your skills, but also of course would have a curriculum that taught the other basic courses. When you reach 14, you should take another test to see if your still on course with your education, if something has changed, say you score higher in your Literature skills then your math, you can opt to transfer. Then when you reach, say 16 you should take another test that delves into even more specialization, such as Geometry, Physics, Football, Soccer, History, Classics, Drama etc. etc.
If you just can't cut it, and fail at school You should be given the option of joining apprentice-ships that interest you, and give you similar accredation as graduating Highschool so you don't have to work at McDonalds for the rest of your life. Then if you decide that you want to pursue say, College, or the military you would then be very proficient in the skills that interest you the most. Thats the way it should be done, IMO.
Another thing that American College Students should consider, if they just can't afford College, is forming student unions. (even though they are currently illegal in the US). But what is the government going to do, if everyone did join a Union, and suddenly tuition goes through the roof, everyone just stops going to College and Stops paying and then they would need to lower tuition to get students to go back.
Wakizashi: This system doesn't allow any freedom, and some children reach their potential later than others. I wasn't particularly good at much when I just turned 13, and now it seems that I'm cruising many subjects and gaining top marks in almost all of them (apart from the subjects where the teacher teaches things way too advanced.. uni level). Also, if you just do what you're good at and not what you're interested in, you will lack the motivation to do any better as you don't want that job anyway. On a final note. It's quite hard to score high on, say, Maths if you've just spent a few years on a course such as Drama isn't it?
Sasaki Kojiro
05-16-2006, 18:27
The poll results sound more like innumeracy, which is more of a problem than illiteracy I think. The poll results that show that 20% of Americans have made important life decisions based on astrology are worrying.
SwordsMaster
05-16-2006, 18:48
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/horsesass/hst.jpg
That is not the point. In a nation that huge there must have been at least a few people intelligent enough to build whatever is needed. It is general literacy that is the problem.
IMO, a challenging centralised school program is key to an educated youth. Creationism should be optional in shools just as religious education, and no books should be banned (what is up with that anyway? How can you ban BOOKS in the XXI century?!?! :help: The Holy Inquisition would be so proud...)
There should definitely be an exam at the end of the school that would determine your possibilities when chosing a career path. (If you get less that 60% you just can't be trusted with radioactive material...)
I'm familiar with 4 education systems first hand, and the results are best not when a whole course is driven at the speed of the dumbest student, but at the level of the smartest. Too tough? Thats your hard luck, study harder. And don't tell me a normal person can't get through with a decent result through any school system.
Samurai Waki
05-16-2006, 18:56
Who ever said anything about freedom? last time I checked the School System in the US is still oppressive and it still sucks. Meh. What do I care, if I ever have a kid I'll send him off to private school anyways. I'm just saying, that schools should specialize, if a student is unhappy and wants to switch over to a different curiculum, then by all means he should, as long as theres a greater chance he/she will graduate and serve the workforce better.
...on the other hand, we do need Janitors, so maybe having a large workforce of Idiots isn't all that bad, if they're complacent and happy, the people with ambition won't have to worry as much about being toppled over.
Duke Malcolm
05-16-2006, 18:59
IMO, a challenging centralised school program is key to an educated youth. Creationism should be optional in shools just as religious education, and no books should be banned (what is up with that anyway? How can you ban BOOKS in the XXI century?!?! :help: The Holy Inquisition would be so proud...)
I believe certain books and poems of Rudyard Kipling's are banned here. Also, it is a shame he is no longer read in schools considering he was once as expected as Shakespeare...
SwordsMaster
05-16-2006, 19:06
I believe certain books and poems of Rudyard Kipling's are banned here. Also, it is a shame he is no longer read in schools considering he was once as expected as Shakespeare...
It is indeed. Trinity College has a good library, with a copy all the books published in the Islands, and there are so many that have the "Banned in <insert country>" on them, it makes you wonder... Its a sad thing and a shame.:no:
That is not the point. In a nation that huge there must have been at least a few people intelligent enough to build whatever is needed. It is general literacy that is the problem.
It's part of the point. Many nations have more people than the US, a higher rate of literacy, and a longer history, yet have not come close to achieving what the US has.
If the US can achieve these things with such a mediocre education system and low rate of literacy, I'm inclined to think they must be pretty damn smart.
Imagine what they could do if they improved their schools...
SwordsMaster
05-16-2006, 19:53
It's part of the point. Many nations have more people than the US, a higher rate of literacy, and a longer history, yet have not come close to achieving what the US has.
If the US can achieve these things with such a mediocre education system and low rate of literacy, I'm inclined to think they must be pretty damn smart.
Imagine what they could do if they improved their schools...
Well, USSR has had satellites and men in space before the US, they had a better school system, and even now, the US and many others are inviting ex-soviet scientists to work for them.
If the schools were improved, there would unlikely be more achievements than there are already, as exceptionally smart people would be just as unlikely as they are now. And not every college graduate can design a space-ship. Average Joe would still be average, but he would be intelligent-average as opposed to medieval-peasant average.
Then again, I can only imagine the amount of monitoring CIA would have to do if everybody was smart...
Sjakihata
05-16-2006, 19:54
It's part of the point. Many nations have more people than the US, a higher rate of literacy, and a longer history, yet have not come close to achieving what the US has.
If the US can achieve these things with such a mediocre education system and low rate of literacy, I'm inclined to think they must be pretty damn smart.
Imagine what they could do if they improved their schools...
yes, we all know that it is all u.s. scientists that has achieved all these things, right? no one from germany, russia, japan etc. have been granted asylum and helped engineering a project of great proportions!
It's part of the point. Many nations have more people than the US, a higher rate of literacy, and a longer history, yet have not come close to achieving what the US has.
Considering we are the third largest nation in the world, do you mean many is equal to two? China and India have a higher literacy rate then us? Some how i have a hard time believing that.
China: 90.9%
India: 59.5%
United States: 99%
All statistics from http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/
Justiciar
05-16-2006, 19:57
I'm inclined to think they must be pretty damn smart.
Or pretty damn rich, which ultimately makes for a better country. Who needs knowledge when you can hire foreigners to do the hard stuff for you? :laugh4:
Byzantine Prince
05-16-2006, 19:58
It's part of the point. Many nations have more people than the US, a higher rate of literacy, and a longer history, yet have not come close to achieving what the US has.
If the US can achieve these things with such a mediocre education system and low rate of literacy, I'm inclined to think they must be pretty damn smart.
Imagine what they could do if they improved their schools...
What are you talking about, the US has the highest ranked universities in the world. And because of this they also have the best technology. MIT, Harvard, UCLA, Berkeley, Yale. MIT alone has a bigger budget than the State of Chile. :laugh4: How could they NOT have all that technology? Most of Harvard's stupdents are not even American.
Avicenna
05-16-2006, 21:19
It doesn't matter that most of the schools are mediocre Beirut, since the top schools are amongst the best in the world. And those schools are hard to improve on very much.
Isn't Yale mainly famous for producing US presidents? That's not much use outside of the US if you ask me..
BHCWarman88
05-16-2006, 21:26
No child left behind ... behind what? The 49 nations that are more literate?
Saw this in PB: 20% of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. 17% know the earth orbits the sun ... but, think it does so every 24 hours (not every 365 days). We be smart ... we be knowings these things, we listens real goods in church. j/k (btw)
America is ranked 50th in literacy in the nations of the world. The wealthiest (well, for a few of us ... I suppose) nation, and the dumbest people in civilized mankind. Of course our religious fervor is equal to alquaedas so that must mean something? Eh?
Why are Americans stupid? 50th? That is a national disgrace. Especially when our budget should afford that every child attend Harvard or Yale or State (wtf).
It is a travesty. How did we allow it. Why is it permitted. And, why do some think it is OK?
Personally, without the GI Bill, I never could have afforded my initial college education. To think that there are 20% (maybe they mean 6 yr olds) that believe the sun revolves around earth is disturbing. I mean, I was explained "God's Plan" when I was like 4 .... you know, how God's time ain't necessarily ours, and the revolving things. Maybe, the 20% slept through ... like everything they were ever told?
Thing is, of all the modern nations ... America is the dumbest. Hands down. Mores the pity, don't you think? Especially since we have the ability to eliminate the world as we know it .......... oh, never mind Bush43 already did that. j/k (sorta)
it sad that we one of the Best Countries in the World,but this Country has to be one of the damn Dumbest.. God, I see Kids in my Cathloic School get 4.0 and crap,and I have a kid in my reading class who can't read one sentance without help and he reads on a 4th grade level.. and he is in 8th grade in a Cathloic School,that's wrong,period..
it sad that we one of the Best Countries in the World,but this Country has to be one of the damn Dumbest.. God, I see Kids in my Cathloic School get 4.0 and crap,and I have a kid in my reading class who can't read one sentance without help and he reads on a 4th grade level.. and he is in 8th grade in a Cathloic School,that's wrong,period..
Ohhh sweet irony!!!!
Tachikaze
05-16-2006, 21:38
The part that Kafir ignores in his rant is if parents don't care about child's education then the child will not be receptive to recieving the education, so the amount of money spent on education is mote until this problem is addressed by the parents themselves.
Something we agree on.
On Beirut's point, I have said before in other threads about Americans' education problems that the US has the two extremes (as usual with most things). It has a significant number of very ignorant people (who vote! :fainting: ) and some of the brightest minds on the planet. The national average is very low, but the most intelligent have the means at their disposal to see their projects to fruition (like foil-covered tin cans floating in space). This is not true of most of the equally intelligent people in other nations.
Alexanderofmacedon
05-16-2006, 22:23
No child left behind ... behind what? The 49 nations that are more literate?
Saw this in PB: 20% of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. 17% know the earth orbits the sun ... but, think it does so every 24 hours (not every 365 days). We be smart ... we be knowings these things, we listens real goods in church. j/k (btw)
America is ranked 50th in literacy in the nations of the world. The wealthiest (well, for a few of us ... I suppose) nation, and the dumbest people in civilized mankind. Of course our religious fervor is equal to alquaedas so that must mean something? Eh?
Why are Americans stupid? 50th? That is a national disgrace. Especially when our budget should afford that every child attend Harvard or Yale or State (wtf).
It is a travesty. How did we allow it. Why is it permitted. And, why do some think it is OK?
Personally, without the GI Bill, I never could have afforded my initial college education. To think that there are 20% (maybe they mean 6 yr olds) that believe the sun revolves around earth is disturbing. I mean, I was explained "God's Plan" when I was like 4 .... you know, how God's time ain't necessarily ours, and the revolving things. Maybe, the 20% slept through ... like everything they were ever told?
Thing is, of all the modern nations ... America is the dumbest. Hands down. Mores the pity, don't you think? Especially since we have the ability to eliminate the world as we know it .......... oh, never mind Bush43 already did that. j/k (sorta)
Maybe if we didn't so much d*** money in a pointless war? Maybe if our highest members in our countries administration weren't doing certain things for personal gain? Maybe if our president was educated! Some of his pronounciations and such show he's really not too educated himself.:wall:
Thanks to anyone who voted for him.:wall:
EDIT: And do you know what the worst part about the "no child left behind" act? I'm at the richest school in my city (was) and now that we have to give all our money away, we're poor. WTF? You're supposed to balance it out, not flip it!
yes, we all know that it is all u.s. scientists that has achieved all these things, right? no one from germany, russia, japan etc. have been granted asylum and helped engineering a project of great proportions!
Really? :wideeyed:
And all this time I thought Wernher von Braun didn't accomplish anything but the electric razor and a few kitchen gadgets.
Whoduhthunkit!
Maybe if we didn't so much d*** money in a pointless war? Maybe if our highest members in our countries administration weren't doing certain things for personal gain? Maybe if our president was educated! Some of his pronounciations and such show he's really not too educated himself.:wall:
Thanks to anyone who voted for him.:wall:
If you think it was much better during the 1990's your fooling yourself. I am willing to bet most of the individuals surveyed in this particlur survey were educated during the 1980's and 1990's.
EDIT: And do you know what the worst part about the "no child left behind" act? I'm at the richest school in my city (was) and now that we have to give all our money away, we're poor. WTF? You're supposed to balance it out, not flip it!
Tsk Tsk - that is a Texas state legislative issue - not the Federal Government. Your mixing your apples and oranges.
PanzerJaeger
05-16-2006, 22:42
It is a travesty. How did we allow it. Why is it permitted. And, why do some think it is OK?
Hardly.
America needs this element of society to do the menial work, and be content doing it. A capitalistic society needs an underclass to do the worst, lowest paid jobs without too much objection.
Just like everything else in America: the more money you have, the better education you can get for your kids. Of course the kid's level of studiousness also must be high to achieve good results.
The intelligent upper classes go to private schools and learn the skills they need to manipulate those public school graduates who are barely literate. And the GDP continues to rise, and America becomes even richer. Thats how it works.
The only travesty is that the percentage of stupid americans has fallen to such a low point that we are having to employ illegals to do the **** work.
Oh yea, I love how Kafir tried to tie religion and general stupidity together. Religious schools, especially Catholic ones, are some of the best in the nation. :idea2:
(Language - Beirut)
Big King Sanctaphrax
05-16-2006, 22:50
Just like everything else in America: the more money you have, the better education you can get for your kids. Of course the kid's level of studiousness also must be high to achieve good results.
The intelligent upper classes go to private schools and learn the skills they need to manipulate those public school graduates who are barely literate. And the GDP continues to rise, and America becomes even richer. Thats how it works.
You think this is actually acceptable? That someone should be condemned to a life of menial work and poverty because of the accident of their birth?
Alexanderofmacedon
05-16-2006, 22:53
Hardly.
America needs this element of society to do the menial work, and be content doing it. A capitalistic society needs an underclass to do the worst, lowest paid jobs without too much objection.
Just like everything else in America: the more money you have, the better education you can get for your kids. Of course the kid's level of studiousness also must be high to achieve good results.
The intelligent upper classes go to private schools and learn the skills they need to manipulate those public school graduates who are barely literate. And the GDP continues to rise, and America becomes even richer. Thats how it works.
The only travesty is that the percentage of stupid americans has fallen to such a low point that we are having to employ illegals to do the shit work.
Oh yea, I love how Kafir tried to tie religion and general stupidity together. Religious schools, especially Catholic ones, are some of the best in the nation. :idea2:
If you're taught the ideals of a religion that is dominant in this country, I'm sure it helps.
Also, I think you bring up a good point about the menial work, but I think, we could deffinetly lower the standards for letting immagrants work here. Instead of keeping everyone stupid, maybe we could bring people who need the jobs from across the border. I'm not condoning the employment of illegals, just maybe lower the standards.
EDIT: I do however find something disturbing in your post. Just because someone is born poor, they do not have a right to a good education? Is that what you're saying, because that's awful in my opinion.
Tachikaze
05-16-2006, 23:10
Any time religion is used to put us educationally back in the Dark Ages, it is a bad influence on public education. We're not talking about Catholicism, here, but good ol' Protestant evangelists, like Bush.
Creationism! Oh my god! No wonder the Sun revolves around the flat Earth.
Any time religion is used to put us educationally back in the Dark Ages, it is a bad influence on public education. We're not talking about Catholicism, here, but good ol' Protestant evangelists, like Bush.
Creationism! Oh my god! No wonder the Sun revolves around the flat Earth.
Oh look a generalization. Care to guess how many Protestant evangelists believe that the earth revolves around the sun?
Alexanderofmacedon
05-17-2006, 00:17
Oh look a generalization. Care to guess how many Protestant evangelists believe that the earth revolves around the sun?
Enlighten me...:book:
Maybe if we didn't so much d*** money in a pointless war? Maybe if our highest members in our countries administration weren't doing certain things for personal gain? Maybe if our president was educated! Some of his pronounciations and such show he's really not too educated himself.:wall:
Money isnt the problem. Our per student spending is among the highest in the world, and it's got us nowhere. We need real reform- not just throwing more money at the problem.
A good first step might be to get the federal government out of the education business and leave it to more local control. :yes:
Enlighten me...:book:
Go to a Protestant evangelist church and you will enlighten yourself.
I went to one for about a year after the Esipocal Church in my area changed its doctrine - ie its no longer that type of protestant church.
Some evangelists were just as intelligent as I, several spoke three languages to include russian. One was a doctor, etc. Basically from all walks of life.
That particlur church also had its fair share of knuckle heads - but generalizations for the most part are inaccurate.
I could point out the number of knuckleheads that have absolute no religion that believe a whole spectrum of things. Because of their own lack of education.
Alexanderofmacedon
05-17-2006, 01:55
Go to a Protestant evangelist church and you will enlighten yourself.
I went to one for about a year after the Esipocal Church in my area changed its doctrine - ie its no longer that type of protestant church.
Some evangelists were just as intelligent as I, several spoke three languages to include russian. One was a doctor, etc. Basically from all walks of life.
That particlur church also had its fair share of knuckle heads - but generalizations for the most part are inaccurate.
I could point out the number of knuckleheads that have absolute no religion that believe a whole spectrum of things. Because of their own lack of education.
That's not what I asked for...
Strike For The South
05-17-2006, 02:13
come to my church talk...
BHCWarman88
05-17-2006, 03:26
Or Mabye the Kids just don't care..
Alexanderofmacedon
05-17-2006, 03:40
Or Mabye the Kids just don't care..
Which somehow needs to be fixed. But at least with that scenario, it's the kids choice. It's not that they were born into it.
Avicenna
05-17-2006, 07:12
Many kids don't care because that's exactly what they are. Kids.
Ja'chyra
05-17-2006, 11:39
Lol, the US is not doing too badly considering they're all so dumb.
Maybe the school system does need changed, but tell me one that doesn't. There will always be people in every country that aren't that bright, for a multitude of reasons, I don't think the situation in the US is anything special.
You think this is actually acceptable? That someone should be condemned to a life of menial work and poverty because of the accident of their birth?
That's not quite the way it is though is it BKS, no-one who is prepared to put the effort in is condemned to anything, it might be harder for them but when they do prosper it'll be easier for their kids.
I think the trick would be to determine which youngsters are worth spending the money on and focusing on them, the rest can get the standard levels of education or else put the effort in to get recognised.
Or Mabye the Kids just don't care..
Being a teacher myself (equivalent to Junior Highschool - Anglo-American section) in Switzerland, I have to say that this is probably the most accurate statement, so far.
Students have smaller and smaller attention spans and are extremely difficult to motivate. Basic skills have been left hanging (writing, reading, basic arithmetics etc.) already in Primary School. Many students 'claim' to have some sort of disability (ADD, dyslexia etc.) and are consequently supported by their parents as this is always the easier option out (as opposed to actually tell their kids off for their crap grades). However, students show less and less interest in anything remotely connected to education and rather spend their time playing with their mobiles and looking cool. This is clearly a problem that must be addressed by parents and not only teachers.
In fairness, I teach mostly kids whose first language is not English but their mothertongue is often just as bad and they end up not being able to communicate properly in any language.
I reckon the standard of basic eduacation has deteriorated in most countries as more and more has to be taught and consequently known. I have had a 16-year old ask me the other day where the address had to be placed on an envelope...common! I recall having learned that shortly after having been taught how to write...
I get asked the most phenomenal questions at times...
Quid
That's not what I asked for...
You have been enlightened. Just because you don't recongize it does not mean it is not enlightenment.
Kralizec
05-17-2006, 14:32
Any time religion is used to put us educationally back in the Dark Ages, it is a bad influence on public education. We're not talking about Catholicism, here, but good ol' Protestant evangelists, like Bush.
Creationism! Oh my god! No wonder the Sun revolves around the flat Earth.
The notion that the Catholic church said that the Earth was flat is a widespread and persistent myth.
They supported Ptolemy's model of the universe, in wich the sun and spherical planets revolved around a spherical Earth. The fact that the Earth is round was known even by the ancient Hellenes.
Tachikaze
05-17-2006, 14:51
The notion that the Catholic church said that the Earth was flat is a widespread and persistent myth.
They supported Ptolemy's model of the universe, in wich the sun and spherical planets revolved around a spherical Earth. The fact that the Earth is round was known even by the ancient Hellenes.
I was being facetious, and I was not referring to the Catholics. I was referring to the Protestants who believe that the story of Genesis is true and want the rest of the country to believe it as well.
To me, disregarding evolution and/or believing humans were created by a god suddenly is as bad as believing the Earth is flat.
I was being facetious, and I was not referring to the Catholics. I was referring to the Protestants who believe that the story of Genesis is true and want the rest of the country to believe it as well.
To me, disregarding evolution and/or believing humans were created by a god suddenly is as bad as believing the Earth is flat.
Ah making generalizations about Protestants again I see. Tsk Tsk...:dizzy2:
Tachikaze
05-17-2006, 23:21
Ah making generalizations about Protestants again I see. Tsk Tsk...:dizzy2:
My statement about Protestants has a qualifier.
My statement about Protestants has a qualifier.
And it is still a generalization.
KafirChobee
05-18-2006, 20:22
First off, as for the selection of books to be used in schools - it is up to individual School Boards. Not the teacher. For a teacher to use or suggest using a book in their classroom, it must first be approved by the School Board. In some States their Legislatures must approve of them before they can be used (Georgia, Kansas, Missouri, Carolinas', Florida .... the list is huge, and the laws prohibitive). Today, in more than just a few States it is illegal to teach, or have in their school library a copy of "Huckleberry Finn" - and the list of banned books by States, School Boards (etc) is increadibly long - biased and prejudicial. But, this has little to do with the illiteracy in this country - it may have something to do witk the literacy rate however.
http://www.nrrf.org
Look around here for arguements about illiteracy and crime, etc. Tried posting a few of their essays, but it ain't woikin'.
According to the National Adult Literacy Survey: 42Million adult Americans cannot read; 50M read at a 4th or 5th grade level, 1 out of 4 teens dropout of High School and of those that do graduate HS 1 in 4 has the equivalency or less than an 8th grade education.
Now, the "no child left behind" act was intended to change that. What it has done is increase the dropout rate and impose a system of testing that limits the scope of what a teacher can actually teach. Teachers are to busy today drilling their kids on what the tests (government) want them to be affluent in, versus receiving a rounded and open education. Talk to a teacher in grade-shool (I know more than a few) about it, what they are graded on today. And the classroom size (kids in the seats) is still to large to allow for individual tutoring or mentoring of the exeptional ones. Still, I suppose any type of guideline is better than none.
Those concerned about the quality of the teachers versus their Union? Amongst professionals, the teaching profession remains the least paid and most overworked in our society. Want better qualified (though personally I feel the vast majority already are) teachers? Pay more - you'ld be surprised who will work for $60,000 a year versus $25 or 30K to teach.
http://www.geosurvey.nationalgeographic.com/geosurvey.htm
Gah! can't get this one up either - oh, well. Just plug in "illiteracy" on a search engine and you can see for yourself.
This is from National Geographics, survey was 18-24 yearolds:
1) Only 34% can find Iraq on a map - even though US troops have been there since 2003.
2) 20% think Sudan is in Asia (the largest country in Africa).
3) 48% believe the majority of people in India are Muslim. (It's Hindu by a landslide)
4) Half cannot find New York on a map.
The link has test, btw. Take it for fun - I got one wrong (the one on the nation with the highest exports - who'ld a thunk it). :wall:
Innovation, tolerance and experimentation in the classroom will be our best ways to improve performance. But, if a child is not given the opportunity to expand their reading skills - no amount of testing, cajoling, intimidating, or expounding of verbage (giving lipservice) to the problem will make it go away.
Of late there have been a number of innovations employed by people truely concerned with improving the literacy rates here and abroad. In Harlem, they have a "free school" system outside the public one. [was on PBS, and CBS] - students are selected by a lottery. These kids are motivated, and so are their parents - that is the key (as many here have pointed out - parental involvement). This system teaches the parent first - to aid their child with homework and to be supportive. If the parent fails, so does the child - there is no tolerance for failure and the child (family) is sent on their way so a more committed family can take their place.
Life isn't fair, but leveling the playing field maybe one answer. Want to see public scools improve, really improve? Make it manditory for all congressmen's and government officials' kids to attend public school - one might be amazed at how quickly they will realize the importance for all children to have an equal education. Will never happen of course - they got a thousand reasons for it not being a practical idea. Just as they do for the failure of the present system of lower education - blame the teachers union, the parent (that works 3 jobs at minimum wage to make ends meet), and the student for not being motivated enough to learn to read. But, by dog lets get the bible back in the classroom.
What we have is a cycle of failure. That some accept. In my day (Gah!) the incorigables (ms) slept through classes in the back of the classroom, ditched whenever, and dropped out at 16. The teachers pretty much allowed it, or sent them to the Dean - regardless, they were the fodder of society. If they chose not to care, why should the teacher? Personally, I agree with this to a point. The problem is an alternative work course could have been created (as some here have pointed out) to allow these individuals the opportunity to get an education while being trained for a skill that interested them - none of them missed a "shop-class" (esp. auto). Where such course innovations are available their is a lower dropout rate. That's a fact.
Literacy is based entirely on one's reading skills. The faster one reads is a key, but retention of what they read is the major factor in expanding and gaining knowledge.(obviuosly) The Social arts seem to have a direct affect on the quality of an education. Music, for instance has a direct correlation with the expansion and interest of those involved - play an instrument (violin, piano, obo) and it seems a stimulant for other portions of the brain. Even just the teaching of the classics seems to open somes eyes to the vast world about them - versus the dirty streets outside their tenements.
Nothing is simple, but reading should be.:balloon2:
Kafir
Nice write up - but I just can't help but feel that you continue to on purpose leave out one of the major reasons of the increase. Its not the government, its not the teachers, its not even the kids themselves.
If Parents are not concerned about their childs education - then the child will not be concerned about their education level.
Individual responsiblity of the parents has a major piece in this equation. Pointing the finger at the government's failure to fulfil its stated objects is good, but attempting to only blame the government's failure leaves one with the same problem in the future.
Strike For The South
05-19-2006, 01:24
42 million? That number seems to be a bit fudged. It would put our literacy rate at 86% somehow I think thats not right
Sjakihata
05-19-2006, 14:22
Got two wrong. What is CSI anyway? And that import question tricked me as well.
Strike For The South
05-20-2006, 15:46
My statement about Protestants has a qualifier.
Np it dosent. Tachi you know what happens when I go to church on Sunday? I sing a couple hymns give a cuople of dollars and I sit and look over at the redhead who Ive been talking to wondering when Ill finally get lucky. The sermons speak not of moral decay but of peace and forgivness and once we leave the preacher who happens to live next door grabs a magarita and we eat. Were not insane.
Papewaio
05-22-2006, 01:12
Hardly.
America needs this element of society to do the menial work, and be content doing it. A capitalistic society needs an underclass to do the worst, lowest paid jobs without too much objection.
Just like everything else in America: the more money you have, the better education you can get for your kids. Of course the kid's level of studiousness also must be high to achieve good results.
The intelligent upper classes go to private schools and learn the skills they need to manipulate those public school graduates who are barely literate. And the GDP continues to rise, and America becomes even richer. Thats how it works.
The only travesty is that the percentage of stupid americans has fallen to such a low point that we are having to employ illegals to do the **** work.
Actually an educated people will produce more. Education is a tool which can be used to leverage more out of a situation. Simply look at how much more work an educated working class (tradesmen) are capable of doing compared with slaves.
Also by limiting education to those of wealth you are missing out on the potential for great scientists, soldiers, doctors and leaders who rise from all economic backgrounds. Hence by limiting education you are limiting the growth rate of the system.
Their is a very good reason that the Asian economies are growing so quickly in high tech solutions, they are investing education in all their people. Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, Japan and indeed China are doing their best to make sure they can educate their best not just their richest.
====
USA in WWII had a massive induastrial output because it had the biggest and most well educated workforce for its time. Other nations relying on slave labour, caste systems or rigid class systems found that they had a hard time keeping up with the economic output. To the point that the Japanese were surprised strategically with how quickly US could repair aircraft carriers and have them deployed back in the theater of operations.
Overtime every nation that has gone through a change towards greater equality and educational training has gone up in economic power. Those that have chosen more facist caste systems have ossified in economic power.
AntiochusIII
05-22-2006, 08:57
Hardly.
America needs this element of society to do the menial work, and be content doing it. A capitalistic society needs an underclass to do the worst, lowest paid jobs without too much objection.
Just like everything else in America: the more money you have, the better education you can get for your kids. Of course the kid's level of studiousness also must be high to achieve good results.
The intelligent upper classes go to private schools and learn the skills they need to manipulate those public school graduates who are barely literate. And the GDP continues to rise, and America becomes even richer. Thats how it works.[/I]And that's how it should not. The "intelligent" upper class: do you mean the Yale idiots that become Presidents? :laugh4:
Not long ago I went to this lunch on this extremely rich "Literary club" that is nothing but a place to bring writers in to give speeches they don't want to give, a student or two a month for good look, and a chance for those filthy rich dumbasses to show their new cars.
Very intelligent. :no:
Papewaio made an excellent point on this.
The truth is: America shouldn't need an uneducated underclass to do its work. If the world doesn't screw itself up in twenty, thirty years from now, which will be when the current kids are fully active in the workforce, then the robots will do all the job anyway. Thus your point is both archaic, morally wrong by the standards proclaimed by America, and crude.
You have been enlightened. Just because you don't recongize it does not mean it is not enlightenment.Nitpicking: isn't enlightenment requires the individual to understand the point completely himself?
...
Alors,
As a high school student, I found the key problems to be:
1. The lack of motivation among the students. This is an age-old problem since the establishment of a mandatory school system, before that only a few gets to go and the problem isn't very "highlighted." However, the culture also influences the lack of motivation, and that is a very deep-rooted problem. Let's blame the kids, hey, then we have to blame like, 90% of them. So one has to try and fix it the hard way: the change of the underlying attitude, the culture. This I cannot give advice.
It is particularly bad in my city, Las Vegas, where the abundance of low-skill high-paying jobs distract students, compounded by a particularly bad school district.
This also involves the parent issue that has been expressed. The culture and the parent.
2. Bereaucracy. In my particular school system, it is obvious that the school district f*cks up very badly in many issues. The bereaucrats over there are parasites who never teaches but write lesson plans. THAT is completely unacceptable. A school system should be individualized in a good way, in a way with common goals, tied to society, but with an individual touch, and only direct inspections with a few common rules observed to prevent serious disparity. Teachers are at their best as individuals: effective teaching that create interactive individuals capable of functioning in a modern democratic state require thinking individuals, created by this individualization.
In the same time, the centralization of the system itself is required. States' rights crap be damned: the Progressive Era with its municipal "initiative" is over. America is now much less an activist society than it had ever been. Leave it to the locals and nothing ever happens. Ever. And ever. And the more systems you have (the small systems) the less oversight it will be. In conjunction with less direct control on the individuals, is more direct control on the systems: with the lower useless bereaucratic rules trapping individual experimentation, so will be less the workload for the system, which can then undergo the important task of cleaning itself up.
Of course, in America, that happens once in a century, after a particular bad Depression or war, or a Revolution. May be the Proletariat can rise now?
Right now there is bad "individualization," pampering us kids, weakening their resolve, putting into their heads the idea of being guaranteed on things which are not guaranteed in real life. And there is bad standardization: crap rules (my school has a dress code--a Dress Code! It's not even a uniform (in which the argument of the creation of a society, or the comformity, or whatever, will be valid) but a dress code with no points and a restriction that the teachers must observe it. Of course they also hate to observe it, but they must to keep their jobs...), pathetic bereaucracy (the district is responsible for a lot of pathetic mistakes and wasted opportunity), and the idea that the lowest common denominator should dominate. What a contradictory system it is.
Then again, the world has never achieved its full potential for once. Except may be in a few instances when extremities push men to the limit, like in a particularly crazy war the Finns had to face against the big bad Bear in 1940, or such other extreme situations. So my hope that a system like the United States can optimize itself is crazy.
3. Money. Xiahou declares that we spent more money than any other per student, but the problem is not the amount of money, but the use of money. Many teachers are underpaid while "parasites" are everywhere in the system, sucking money and providing no results. Fancy computers are bought (nice and all, yeah) while student initiatives, clubs, and such other social efforts are not paid. Only frantic fundraising could properly serve them, and there are even rules against certain ways of fundraising. Here in my school we can't sell candy for fundraising, at all! If there's anything that makes the Japanese so apparently superior, it's not their teaching style, I know that well and it isn't actually very nice or interactive: direct lectures and crazy, superhuman memorization. Doesn't do much good in my opinion, though it will certainly forge out those vaunted scientists with an iron discipline. But the complete overarching domination of school life over a student's life, the social clubs, and such, provide such students with benefits of social development and motivation.
And call me a ******, an ******, whatever, but there is approximately ten times the amount of money spent on individual special education students than the "best" students. This is quite absurd, even for such a "compassionate" society as ours. Of course, the special ed kids who are pampered now will only go out to find a society so cruel that they will have very little, pathetically little, opportunity to live a good life while their youth had been years of pampering, almost 1:1 ratio of student per teacher, etc. The myth of the best students being the main concern of the school should be debunked a thousand times over: the lowest common denominator prevails, again. Also prevails is the irony of the special ed kids and their future...
4. Teacher incompetence. This is the issue revolves around the Union, as others, conservative, adult members of this board has pounded on. And also revolves around the bereaucratic incompetence that presides over this post of mine.
And there is also a side issue about colleges: there is something particular wrong about a society so capitalistic that people have to bleed over, get themselves into debt that will last years, if not, for the unlucky, decades, at the eve of "life" just to get into a decent college and receive an education deemed necessary for today's society.
Anyway, that's my opinion, my rant, and I must express my surprise for anyone who actually reads it from the start to here. :sweatdrop:
(Language - Beirut)
KafirChobee
05-24-2006, 05:25
Redleg
I did actually mention parents as a necessary instrument in the betterment of a childs education. The experiment in Harlem was my example of this. Allowing a child to sink or swim of their own innitiative, without understanding the incentive to do so or the improvements for their lifestyle in 20 years - well, that can be a hard thing to teach.
For my personal experience, I was an under-acheiver (putting it lightly - I could get a 3.0 by just showing up to class and skimming the books). My Mom had more ambition for me than I did. Working as a legal secratary she even got me an in for West Point (her firm had a judge and congressman), which of course I callously and nonchallantly cast aside like yesterdays news. Still, I did eventually find my own way.
Many of the lower-class kids do not have the advantages many of us have been handed us. A few, do climb out of the mire despite the circumstance of social placement. Most because of a parent, and even fewer despite them.
Laying blame on the parents when; as someone previously pointed out the time element or ratio spent with teachers, "playmates" (gangs), etc. versus actual face to face with parents - is unfair.
Certainly it would be a wonderful thing if all parents took or had the time to pay attention to their kids educations. Thing is, the less a person is paid the less time they probably have for their kids. Period. Works the other way to, but the wealthier a person is the more likely they can afford tuitors.
Now, is it possible to hold the parent responsible for their childs disinterest or failure? No. If it were a resolve would have been met years ago. Further, when this approach has been attempted, it has failed - how do you punish a parent for working 80 hour weeks (at minimum wage - which hasn't been increased since Carter was President - Clinton's attempt failed in the Republican congress) just attempting to feed their kids?
Blaming the parents is to easy, justified in many cases, but still to easy an outlook of the entire problem.
Antiochus, interesting perspective. Good post....... it is "bureaucracy" btw. Regardless, your points were well made. Bureaucracys are self preserving, self sustaining entities that propagate themselves through the ignorance and acceptance of others - they expand expotentially to the influence (and in some cases fear) they have on those established to limit them. They are amazing animals of power, and if allowed ... corruption.
Papawaio - maybe it is time someone reminded us that WWII was won because of our literacy, not despite it. I agree.
SoS, I swear, I have not fudged any numbers. We are 50th in the world, and 42Million of us cannot read. look again at the level many do read at ... and it is down right scary.
Redleg
I did actually mention parents as a necessary instrument in the betterment of a childs education. The experiment in Harlem was my example of this. Allowing a child to sink or swim of their own innitiative, without understanding the incentive to do so or the improvements for their lifestyle in 20 years - well, that can be a hard thing to teach.
THe Harlem experiment does indeed demonstrate several important aspects of education. Many that are often overlook. Education is a partnership between several players - Child, Parent, and Teacher, without one the others can not accomplish the task of education.
Many of the lower-class kids do not have the advantages many of us have been handed us. A few, do climb out of the mire despite the circumstance of social placement. Most because of a parent, and even fewer despite them.
Amazing one-sided. I come from a lower class grouping. Farmers and construction workers are normally considered part of the upper or middle-class group now are they? Specially small land-owning farmers mortaged to the bank.
Laying blame on the parents when; as someone previously pointed out the time element or ratio spent with teachers, "playmates" (gangs), etc. versus actual face to face with parents - is unfair.
Same as its unfair to place the blame primarily on the government. Without the parent education becomes difficult.
Certainly it would be a wonderful thing if all parents took or had the time to pay attention to their kids educations. Thing is, the less a person is paid the less time they probably have for their kids. Period. Works the other way to, but the wealthier a person is the more likely they can afford tuitors.
Then explain why my parents - one who was a construction worker, oilfield roughneck, and farmer happen to encourage and insure I went to school. And the other parent who also worked 40 hours as a Vet assistance and seamtress insured that I went to school. Your taking the easy way out in your explaination - just like many parents do with their childern. If a parent cares about their child they make the time to spend with the child. Try working a swing shift - its hard, but responsible parents make the effort.
Now, is it possible to hold the parent responsible for their childs disinterest or failure? No. If it were a resolve would have been met years ago. Further, when this approach has been attempted, it has failed - how do you punish a parent for working 80 hour weeks (at minimum wage - which hasn't been increased since Carter was President - Clinton's attempt failed in the Republican congress) just attempting to feed their kids?
Faced that one myself several times with my older child. If a child is disinterested in education that is a different scenerio then what your initial premise was about.
Blaming the parents is to easy, justified in many cases, but still to easy an outlook of the entire problem.
Just as blaming only the government. Education is a partnership of several different players. The Child, The teacher, the Parent, and the government which provides the money for education. It seems your wanting to focus only in the government's failure. I happen to focus more on the parent. Responsible parenting requires the individual to be involved with their child regardless of their situation. I know several personally and many from the school my child goes to who follow that model regardless of their finicial position.
KafirChobee
05-26-2006, 05:24
Redleg
You're nitpicking my friend.
I to (obviously) come from the working class. Still recall (was 7) when my Dad made shop manager at Lodi motors (Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge - #1 at the time, btw) and Mom was a waitress then (as she was later in life due to carpel-tunnel-syndrom, from typing). Lived on a farm too (albeit poultry, from 6-9), 2 Grandparents, 3 parents, and 6 Grandkids.
I went to 2 grade schools. 3 Jr. Highs, and 5 H.S.s. I seen it all. I got to go through the new kid scenario every few or every year. Take my word, you learn to do more than exist. It is like being the new meat in a jail in some cases, because there was a pecking order even in them days. Take my word, my brothers and I knew how to depend on one another - no one messed with us after the first month in a district. Mess with one, mess with all ... and we knew how and where to make our alliences.
Red, what you don't grasp is despite the adversities our parents had - we got by because of the school systems we were in. We had it made by comparrison of inner-city youth, we never (rarely) feared for our lives, let alone on a daily basis.
The worst I saw was Fenger H.S., Chicago. There were some excellent teachers, but the administrators sucked - the admins couldn't tell one kid from another. To them, we were all the same - and that was, we were all bad. Not that i wasn't a badass, but I was a lovable one. ~:rolleyes: More than that pity my poor brothers that followed me there, "Are you JF____K____'s brother?". Told them to deny me .... fools never did. Most said to pay attention as I had, others made rude comments - but, even they were reverant (not that i was legend, but i did have my days :shrug: ).
The thing is, howling about the sacrifice of ones parents - working 80 hour weeks - which means you decided to accomplish your goals by yourself without their assistance, tutoring, or encouragement is commendable. It is not, however, a good example of good parenting according to the present Republican standard - which is all women should stay at home and homeschool their younguns.
Discarding the facts that it is the responsability of the government to assure that all Americans can read - English; no spanish, no germans, no french.... just english please - is apropro. I suppose, for anyone that accepts that the government is not responsible for anything. Especially, the health, education or social welfare of all Americans.
Itemizing my arguements, quoting lines out of context, or using the portions most suitable for your one-two liners - as you do in all your incursions into others dissertations on the entire subject being debated. Is typical.
Just once, i would like to see you fulfill your potential by freelancing your thoughts into a comprehensive composite of what you really feel, believe.
Your parents, and mine did the best they could. They both did a fair job, yours better than mine if you like. Thing is, did we exceed their goals for us? Me, no - my Mom would have wanted me President. From my Dad? He once told me, I was the only son he never worried about - 'cause I would always find a way. A way for what? He never said.
Redleg
You're nitpicking my friend.
Not at all - if I wanted to nitpick I would
I to (obviously) come from the working class. Still recall (was 7) when my Dad made shop manager at Lodi motors (Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge - #1 at the time, btw) and Mom was a waitress then (as she was later in life due to carpel-tunnel-syndrom, from typing). Lived on a farm too (albeit poultry, from 6-9), 2 Grandparents, 3 parents, and 6 Grandkids.
I went to 2 grade schools. 3 Jr. Highs, and 5 H.S.s. I seen it all. I got to go through the new kid scenario every few or every year. Take my word, you learn to do more than exist. It is like being the new meat in a jail in some cases, because there was a pecking order even in them days. Take my word, my brothers and I knew how to depend on one another - no one messed with us after the first month in a district. Mess with one, mess with all ... and we knew how and where to make our alliences.[/quote]
Same background - probably just as rough.
Red, what you don't grasp is despite the adversities our parents had - we got by because of the school systems we were in. We had it made by comparrison of inner-city youth, we never (rarely) feared for our lives, let alone on a daily basis.
You misunderstand - I grasp more then what you are thinking.
The worst I saw was Fenger H.S., Chicago. There were some excellent teachers, but the administrators sucked - the admins couldn't tell one kid from another. To them, we were all the same - and that was, we were all bad. Not that i wasn't a badass, but I was a lovable one. ~:rolleyes: More than that pity my poor brothers that followed me there, "Are you JF____K____'s brother?". Told them to deny me .... fools never did. Most said to pay attention as I had, others made rude comments - but, even they were reverant (not that i was legend, but i did have my days :shrug: ).
Your pointing out something that is not the government's fault but the individual school system.
The thing is, howling about the sacrifice of ones parents - working 80 hour weeks - which means you decided to accomplish your goals by yourself without their assistance, tutoring, or encouragement is commendable. It is not, however, a good example of good parenting according to the present Republican standard - which is all women should stay at home and homeschool their younguns.
Who states that - that is a generalization that does not have a lot of support among the people I know. But then I never claimed to be a Republician either.
Discarding the facts that it is the responsability of the government to assure that all Americans can read - English; no spanish, no germans, no french.... just english please - is apropro. I suppose, for anyone that accepts that the government is not responsible for anything. Especially, the health, education or social welfare of all Americans.
Again you are generalizing - the responsibility falls on more then just the government. Where does individual responsibility fall into the equation? Education requires more then just the government.
Itemizing my arguements, quoting lines out of context, or using the portions most suitable for your one-two liners - as you do in all your incursions into others dissertations on the entire subject being debated. Is typical.
Just once, i would like to see you fulfill your potential by freelancing your thoughts into a comprehensive composite of what you really feel, believe.
Oh a typical attempt at ad hominem arguement there Kafir. I respond to each paragraph as it suits me.
Your parents, and mine did the best they could. They both did a fair job, yours better than mine if you like. Thing is, did we exceed their goals for us? Me, no - my Mom would have wanted me President. From my Dad? He once told me, I was the only son he never worried about - 'cause I would always find a way. A way for what? He never said.
The difference is Kafir I don't blame the government for the individuals failure. Neither did my parents.
Oh by the way Kafir I have done just that - free writing of my own thoughts - we all know all that turned out between the two of us.
Strike For The South
05-26-2006, 06:08
Well today was the last day of exams (and school for the matter) and my average for the year was an 87 same as last year. I dont really study all that much except for math. Any other subject I can just show up and get a sold b or higher but math has always been my weak point the past 2 years Ive passed with a 70 and a 72 :dizzy2: Well its summer which means its time for booze women and a job to get a truck mmmmm F-250 4x4 mmmmmmmm
Divinus Arma
05-26-2006, 06:42
Genaerally the dumbest. But also indisbutabitleldy (heh, sic) the smartedest.
Yup we be smarts. hyuck.
Zalmoxis
05-26-2006, 07:26
Out of curiosity and a sheer listless surrender of any attempt to search for this in the thread, what's the literacy rate in the US?
Blodrast
05-26-2006, 18:56
Very good post, imo, AntiochusIII. I think you pointed out several key issues, and I like your stance, to be honest.
And I also believe I find a lot of substance in your arguments, Kafir.
Good points.:bow:
Zalmoxis: eh... just scroll a bit up on this same page, in Kafir's post (post #63).
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