There are some nice ones...

[Alexanderofmacedon]

What a lovely person. I wish we could all be this nice. I have some negative views towards Christians (religions all together really), but this just shows that there are those who are truly angels.

Maryada Vallet is a devout evangelical Christian and believes the Bible calls her to walk through the infernally hot Arizona desert, offering aid to immigrants illegally crossing the Mexican border.

She and her colleagues give them food, wash their blistered feet and even carry the exhausted to medical facilities.

"I really believe that Jesus would be here with us if he were alive today," Vallet said.

Vallet is frustrated that many of her fellow evangelicals are supporting a bill that would make all immigrants felons and would make anyone who helps them criminals, too.

"We believe it's never a crime to stop and help someone on the side of the road," she said.

Many Hispanic evangelicals — a growing community — passionately agree. But many white evangelicals take a hard line.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1907816&page=1

And I don't want to hear any crap about this nice lady. I don't care if your rich *** didn't get a job these poor immagrants got. They need more money than you, I'm sure.:furious3:

[Strike For The South]

she should be aressted.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

she should be aressted.

When you use proper spelling and punctuation, I may take you seriously. Until then, please refrain from adding comments such as this.:no:

[Kaiser of Arabia]

What a lovely person. I wish we could all be this nice. I have some negative views towards Christians (religions all together really), but this just shows that there are those who are truly angels.

Maryada Vallet is a devout evangelical Christian and believes the Bible calls her to walk through the infernally hot Arizona desert, offering aid to immigrants illegally crossing the Mexican border.

She and her colleagues give them food, wash their blistered feet and even carry the exhausted to medical facilities.

"I really believe that Jesus would be here with us if he were alive today," Vallet said.

Vallet is frustrated that many of her fellow evangelicals are supporting a bill that would make all immigrants felons and would make anyone who helps them criminals, too.

"We believe it's never a crime to stop and help someone on the side of the road," she said.

Many Hispanic evangelicals — a growing community — passionately agree. But many white evangelicals take a hard line.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1907816&page=1

And I don't want to hear any crap about this nice lady. I don't care if your rich *** didn't get a job these poor immagrants got. They need more money than you, I'm sure.:furious3:


They have money in Mexico. Hell, they print American money in North Korea, and I'm sure Kimmy wouldn't mind them! :2thumbsup:

Sorry that was all too random. I'm very hyper, I had 5 cups of coffee this morning.

[Strike For The South]

You know man. You see this lady and these people and think she is an angel for helping for these poor and imporvished people. You know what these people are gonna be here? Poor and impovershied. See thats what happens when you dont speak english have no skills nor an education. The American education and health systems are losing billions the American middle class is getting raped. America already gives the most legal visas were not the drop off point for people. You may be swayed but I am not. I refuse to lose my culture my language my economy and my middle class. People are swayed by fickle emotions take a step and realize whats going on.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

You know man. You see this lady and these people and think she is an angel for helping for these poor and imporvished people. You know what these people are gonna be here? Poor and impovershied. See thats what happens when you dont speak english have no skills nor an education. The American education and health systems are losing billions the American middle class is getting raped. America already gives the most legal visas were not the drop off point for people. You may be swayed but I am not. I refuse to lose my culture my language my economy and my middle class. People are swayed by fickle emotions take a step and realize whats going on.

Lose your culture?:

You don't have to lose your culture. Why would you? Please, I'd like to know how these impovershed people will force you to lose your culture.

Lose your language?:

Unless you chose to learn spanish, and even then, I don't see how you could lose your language

Lose your economy?:

Well, this war you want to fight so badly is costing us more money than any poor immigrant.

First of all, I'd like to ask you. What do you propose to do? I'll be honest with you, I'm all for slowing down the rate at which illegals enter the country, but what do you want to do about it realistically?

Over eleven million illegals are in the United States at this moment. Look at it this way. When the hurricane was in bound for New Orleans, the government on the federal, state, and city level couldn't evacuate the amount of people they wanted to, and those are people with records.

How do you plan to move 11,000,000 people who don't have records? Now, I'll hope you were joking when you said she should be arrested. Legal or not, these are people. You and I are fine money wise. We're a lot better off than these poor souls, that's for sure. Have a bit of respect. Not because they are honorable people, but because they are people. You're the one who is blinded my friend. Blinded by greed.

(No personal attacks please - Beirut)

[Somebody Else]

Anyone else long for the day when we can abolish borders altogether?

[Strike For The South]

Lose your culture?:

You don't have to lose your culture. Why would you? Please, I'd like to know how these impovershed people will force you to lose your culture.

Lose your language?:

Unless you chose to learn spanish, and even then, I don't see how you could lose your language

Lose your economy?:

Well, this war you want to fight so badly is costing us more money than any poor immigrant.

First of all, I'd like to ask you. What do you propose to do? I'll be honest with you, I'm all for slowing down the rate at which illegals enter the country, but what do you want to do about it realistically?

Over eleven million illegals are in the United States at this moment. Look at it this way. When the hurricane was in bound for New Orleans, the government on the federal, state, and city level couldn't evacuate the amount of people they wanted to, and those are people with records.

How do you plan to move 11,000,000 people who don't have records? Now, I'll hope you were joking when you said she should be arrested, but there is no need to be a d*** towards a person. Legal or not, these are people. You and I are fine money wise. We're a lot better off than these poor souls, that's for sure. Have a bit of respect. Not because they are honorable people, but because they are people. You're the one who is blinded my friend. Blinded by greed.

You live in my city right? Have you been downtown lately? Every damn sign is in the spainish (The riverwalk dosent count its a tourist thing.) Not to mention the war has nothing to do with this. The war has nothing to do with illeglas sucking the education and health systems dry becuase of anchor babies. What do I propose to do? Make it a felony to be illegal harsh penalties. Burn to the ground any buisness that hire illegals and then imprison the Ceos for being greeding loving bastards so much so they would rape our middle class. With these the illegals will leave.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

You live in my city right? Have you been downtown lately? Every damn sign is in the spainish (The riverwalk dosent count its a tourist thing.) Not to mention the war has nothing to do with this. The war has nothing to do with illeglas sucking the education and health systems dry becuase of anchor babies. What do I propose to do? Make it a felony to be illegal harsh penalties. Burn to the ground any buisness that hire illegals and then imprison the Ceos for being greeding loving bastards so much so they would rape our middle class. With these the illegals will leave.

For one thing, I do think the war does have something to do with this. I'll keep that for an other day though. Personally, I did not notice the signs being in spanish, so I couldn't agree or disagree. In your response to what you will do, I'm glad you're rational enough to think about something other than the normal "send em all back" thought some morons have.

I don't think illegals will ever stop. No matter what you do, you can't catch them all and you will not stop them all. My two cents...


Somebody Else: At this point in time, that doesn't sound like a bad idea at all...

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Lose your culture?:

You don't have to lose your culture. Why would you? Please, I'd like to know how these impovershed people will force you to lose your culture.

Lose your language?:

Unless you chose to learn spanish, and even then, I don't see how you could lose your language

Lose your economy?:

Well, this war you want to fight so badly is costing us more money than any poor immigrant.

First of all, I'd like to ask you. What do you propose to do? I'll be honest with you, I'm all for slowing down the rate at which illegals enter the country, but what do you want to do about it realistically?

Over eleven million illegals are in the United States at this moment. Look at it this way. When the hurricane was in bound for New Orleans, the government on the federal, state, and city level couldn't evacuate the amount of people they wanted to, and those are people with records.

How do you plan to move 11,000,000 people who don't have records? Now, I'll hope you were joking when you said she should be arrested, but there is no need to be a d*** towards a person. Legal or not, these are people. You and I are fine money wise. We're a lot better off than these poor souls, that's for sure. Have a bit of respect. Not because they are honorable people, but because they are people. You're the one who is blinded my friend. Blinded by greed.

Just because they are poor means my friend here is blinded by greed? It's not his fault Mexico is a poor country. And it's not his fault Mexicans in the US are poor. Nor is it his duty to make sure that they are well off. It is his duty to make sure that a better future for his posterity is around, and that his family is provided for as best he can.

Everyone speeks of the poor, downtrodden Mexican. What about the poor, downtrodden American? Who cares for them? I do not think we should provide for other country's poor until we have eradicated poverty from America altogether.

Get your priorities together. By increasing the amount of poor people in America, you increase poverty (duh), and therefore increase the amount of things the left has to whine about. Kick them out, less poor people, less whining (kinda).

11 million people isn't a vital part of our economy. It just saves Walmart money. And Walmart can [censored for good of humanity, and also so it is not in violation of the Geneva Convention and several UN Resolutions].

[Ice]

Anyone else long for the day when we can abolish borders altogether?

No, not really.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Just because they are poor means my friend here is blinded by greed? It's not his fault Mexico is a poor country. And it's not his fault Mexicans in the US are poor. Nor is it his duty to make sure that they are well off. It is his duty to make sure that a better future for his posterity is around, and that his family is provided for as best he can.

Everyone speeks of the poor, downtrodden Mexican. What about the poor, downtrodden American? Who cares for them? I do not think we should provide for other country's poor until we have eradicated poverty from America altogether.

Get your priorities together. By increasing the amount of poor people in America, you increase poverty (duh), and therefore increase the amount of things the left has to whine about. Kick them out, less poor people, less whining (kinda).

11 million people isn't a vital part of our economy. It just saves Walmart money. And Walmart can [censored for good of humanity, and also so it is not in violation of the Geneva Convention and several UN Resolutions].

I didn't say it he was blinded by greed because they are poor. You know, you could have a bit of compassion. They're people is all I'm saying. I'm not saying his duty is to anyone but his family, all I am saying is he can afford a little bit for a lot of people to have a better life.

I'm totally with the idea of caring for the 'downtrodden American' you speak of. I do plenty of charity work and I will continue to. That's why I feel we shouldn't have wars named "Iraqi Freedom". We're supposed to be helping the poor in Iraq, when we have our own poor. Sorry, let me get back on topic here.

You see, you totally miss the things I'm saying Kaiser. I did not say, I want to allow the illegals to continue to come. I even stated earlier (if you've been reading any of my posts), that I would in fact like to slow it down or stop it. Quite frankly, I don't want to hear your B.S about the left whining. I'm not even going to bring up the right, for it's just a waste of time.

You say 11 million people isn't a vital part of our economy? I believe it's a greater part then you give credit for.

[PanzerJaeger]

Strike for the South is correct.

This woman is aiding and abetting criminals. She should be arrested.

Having no money gives these illegals no more right to enter America than I had. It is not difficult to enter the United States legally and if it is for these people, they should attempt to make their own pathetic country decent instead of bringing ours down. :no:

It was their choice to attempt to cross a desert, and they must pay the consequences. I bet this woman is taking them to hospitals that are unable to offer decent help to real americans because they are strapped by all the illegals.

(Language - Beirut)

[Samurai Waki]

This could very well be the first time I'm in agreement with both Kaiser and Panzer...:dizzy2: And I also believe that the Great Wall of America is a' comin' :2thumbsup:

[Papewaio]

You could wash their feet, give them a meal and then send them home.

Firm but fair.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

You could wash their feet, give them a meal and then send them home.

Firm but fair.

Seems like a good idea. It's a tough situation in my opinion...:wall:

[Reverend Joe]

:stare: God, you people are being jerks! For god's sake, the woman is trying to be nice! Maybe she is a little misguided, but it doesn't matter who she is trying to be nice to- it's that she is being nice! She could bring bread and water to the Manson family; it wouldn't change the fact that her motives are kindness towards her fellow man.

This has not a damn thing to do with illegal immigration. It is about one nice thing that, in the words of Sgt. Horvath, "we can pull out of this whole, godawful ****ty mess." Hell, I am against illegal immigration, but I still think this woman is deserving of a little respect.

[Ser Clegane]

Having no money gives these illegals no more right to enter America than I had. It is not difficult to enter the United States legally and if it is for these people, they should attempt to make their own pathetic country decent instead of bringing ours down. :no:

What?

No more "Mexicans are godsend when you are in real estate"?

What changed your mind? Have you left the real eastate business?

I am genuinely shocked :shocked:

[Sjakihata]

Anyone else long for the day when we can abolish borders altogether?

Yes, Im longing madly for that!

[Duke Malcolm]

Anyone else long for the day when we can abolish borders altogether?

Yes, when the rest of the world is under British soveriegnty...

[Somebody Else]

Yes, when the rest of the world is under British soveriegnty...

One way or another... Whether it be an American, British, German, Russian, or Chinese empire, Islamic Caliphate, UN-governed world federation (least likely, I know...)... Once it's one system, it can be tweaked.

[Red Peasant]

What's the point of this thread?
I've met plenty of 'nice' Christians, and Muslims, and Jews, and Hindus, and Atheists, and Agnostics, and Pagans, etc. etc. Maybe you hang out with the wrong sort of people. ~;)

However, just because they are nice doesn't mean that I have to agree with any of them, or admit that they possess the only 'truth', or worship the only 'god/s'.

[English assassin]

I'd say this thread had triumphantly made its point.

You can like it or not, and I don't presume for a moment to know what Jesus would do in any situation, but I reckon Maryada Vallet is on the money. I don't remember reading Jesus saying Help the poor (so long as they have a green card). As matter of fact, when Jesus said love thy neighbour, and he was asked who is my neighbour, i seem to remember he answered with a parable about a member of a despised neighbouring race (its the Good Samaritan, for those who weren't paying attention in RE).

Its not my border and its not my faith but IMHO she is living what it tells her in the bible to do and fair play to her. And some people want her arrested and punished. Hmm, now let me think, who is Christ and who are the Roman soldiers in this little story... :idea2:

[Prodigal]

They need more money than you
Errrr...Maybe you shouldn't knock people for their spelling.

[Moros]

It's funny that it can be illegal to live in the so called country of freedom.

Panzer, I wander what you would do when you were poor, trying to survive and trying to get a better live or would you just keep being poor, watch you children /family suffer, not wishing for a better life. OFcourse you'd want to stay poor woudln't you? Ofcourse you wouldn't wish for a better life. Ofcourse you would hate it if people helped you. Everybody hates kind people, no?

[Divinus Arma]

Would you be so kind as to properly label your thread titles so we know what the hell is actually being discussed? Nice ones? Tits? Cars? Kittens? Golf clubs? Come on, you.

As for the discussion, the United States cannot support a massive importation of global poverty without sustaining long-term economic damage. The uneducated unskilled baby-dropping millions consume far more in public resources than they contribute.

I feel for these people. And I would do the same thing. But just because they are next to us does not entitle them to our country's resources anymore than the Congo or Ethiopia should be entitled to come into this country by the millions.

The United States can provide the greatest benefit to the world by remaining economically powerful. Destroy the American economy and you will destory the world ecopnomy.

[Sjakihata]

Would you be so kind as to properly label your thread titles so we know what the hell is actually being discussed? Nice ones? Tits? Cars? Kittens? Golf clubs? Come on, you.


Yes, I thought too at first the thread was about tits - I got disappointed...

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Would you be so kind as to properly label your thread titles so we know what the hell is actually being discussed? Nice ones? Tits? Cars? Kittens? Golf clubs? Come on, you.

As for the discussion, the United States cannot support a massive importation of global poverty without sustaining long-term economic damage. The uneducated unskilled baby-dropping millions consume far more in public resources than they contribute.

I feel for these people. And I would do the same thing. But just because they are next to us does not entitle them to our country's resources anymore than the Congo or Ethiopia should be entitled to come into this country by the millions.

The United States can provide the greatest benefit to the world by remaining economically powerful. Destroy the American economy and you will destory the world ecopnomy.

It just brings you into the thread.:2thumbsup:

[yesdachi]

I had originally thought you were being sarcastic but after reading further along in the thread you are serious. You seriously think she is doing good and you seriously think allowing the illegals to remain is ok. I can’t think of a bigger mistake the US could make. Invading Iraq was a plan of genius compared to allowing the nearly 20 million (this is a more accurate number than your 11) illegal immigrants (which would quickly turn into 200 million, via bring your family along immigration rules and new births over the course of just a few years, if they were granted some kind of amnesty) to stay.

The US can not take on a burden of such magnitude without collapsing. And why would we want to? To be nice? Pffffftt not me, I’m having a hard enough time paying my own bills and securing my families future. A future that I have been working on for over 30 years. No one should be able to hop a fence or swim a river or cross a dry rocky piece of land and be given all the things I have been busting my butt for. There are no free rides on this bus, baby, and I don’t see many illegals with a token, actually my bus isn’t free AND it doesn’t have any vacancy’s either, unless you go thru the proper immigration channels. I don’t feel any compulsion to offer them any assistance at all. IMO, if they want more they should be storming the gates to Fox’s house rather than storming across our boarder.

[Blodrast]

It is not difficult to enter the United States legally and if it is for these people, they should attempt to make their own pathetic country decent instead of bringing ours down. :no:

(emphasis mine) OT, so I won't get into too many details, but I beg to differ.
And I'm speaking from the position of a person with a high level of education, imo.
For people who don't even have that - pfffft... It _may_ have been easy 70 years ago, but things are different today...

[Csargo]

Like I've been saying all along we need a Great Wall of Mexico if people would just listen to me GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[scooter_the_shooter]

I am for the land mine Idea....just make sure they know they are there:help: . Then only the idiots and criminals would cross:2thumbsup:

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I had originally thought you were being sarcastic but after reading further along in the thread you are serious. You seriously think she is doing good and you seriously think allowing the illegals to remain is ok. I can’t think of a bigger mistake the US could make. Invading Iraq was a plan of genius compared to allowing the nearly 20 million (this is a more accurate number than your 11) illegal immigrants (which would quickly turn into 200 million, via bring your family along immigration rules and new births over the course of just a few years, if they were granted some kind of amnesty) to stay.

The US can not take on a burden of such magnitude without collapsing. And why would we want to? To be nice? Pffffftt not me, I’m having a hard enough time paying my own bills and securing my families future. A future that I have been working on for over 30 years. No one should be able to hop a fence or swim a river or cross a dry rocky piece of land and be given all the things I have been busting my butt for. There are no free rides on this bus, baby, and I don’t see many illegals with a token, actually my bus isn’t free AND it doesn’t have any vacancy’s either, unless you go thru the proper immigration channels. I don’t feel any compulsion to offer them any assistance at all. IMO, if they want more they should be storming the gates to Fox’s house rather than storming across our boarder.

I'm not saying we should allow them to stay. I think, A) People are making too big a deal of it, and B) People are unrealistically thinking we can take all these illegals out of here. It's too big a task, we need to find a temporary solution. I don't know what that is, but it's not my job. Give me a link that states it's about 20 million instead of 11.

[Reverend Joe]

Yes, I thought too at first the thread was about tits - I got disappointed...
:laugh4: So did I. Great minds think alike.

[scooter_the_shooter]

I'm not saying we should allow them to stay. I think, A) People are making too big a deal of it, and B) People are unrealistically thinking we can take all these illegals out of here. It's too big a task, we need to find a temporary solution. I don't know what that is, but it's not my job. Give me a link that states it's about 20 million instead of 11.



We don't need to get rid of all of them just most of them:inquisitive: take their stuff too, send them back with just the clothes on their backs and a meal. I know it is brutal and cruel; but it is better for the crountry in the long run.

[Papewaio]

Even if the US made all 20 million illegal immigrants legal it would still mean that the US has a foreign born population percentage of less then 20%.

298,444,215 (source CIA Factbook)
Foreign born population 10.4% (source NationMaster)
20,000,000 would add another 6.7% to the foreign born population.

So you would have a total foreign born population percentage of 17.1%

Canada has a foreign born population of 17.4%.

Australia has a foreign born population of 23%, a health care system for all, a government surplus... and as for trade we have a trade surplus with the Chinese, export camels to Saudi Arabia, export rice to South East Asia and export Vodka to Russia...

In short I don't think the American economy would collapse if it took on a larger amount of immigrants.

However any country has the right to decide whom they will let in to become a tourist, resident or citizen.

[yesdachi]

I'm not saying we should allow them to stay. I think, A) People are making too big a deal of it, and B) People are unrealistically thinking we can take all these illegals out of here. It's too big a task, we need to find a temporary solution. I don't know what that is, but it's not my job. Give me a link that states it's about 20 million instead of 11.
Most sources claim between 11 and 20 million, I choose to prepare for the worst and be pleasantly surprised if we ever find out that the numbers are better.

The Wall Street investment firm Bear Stearns has published a new report, “The Underground Labor Force is Rising to the Surface,” which claims that the illegal alien population is double the official government estimates. According to Bear Stearns analysts, Robert Justich and Betty Ng, the illegal alien population of the U.S. is about 20 million—roughly the population of New York State.
links: 1 (http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/01/bear_stearns_sa.php) 2 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12801084/) 3 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/CSM/story?id=1964488) 4 (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42216)

The 20 million number isn’t even the biggest issue, it’s the fact that if they are given any kind of “legal” status they are then able to bring in family who can stay here while going thru the process of becoming a citizen. Say each illegal brought in/sponsored a parent, spouse, child and a sibling. Then the spouse brought in a parent, the sibling brought in a spouse and child, etc. Even if the number is 11 million, in 5 years its going to be over a hundred million, how’s that going to effect the economy?

[Incongruous]

I have some negative views towards Christians

You now what man...
(Edited by Ser Clegane - please refrain from making such personal attacks) So I guess the kids who go round being dicks allday and wagging class who are of a certain race should be able to get all the freebees later on while I work my ass off. Ha and while being a Christian at the same time. So I guess to you I'm as bad as they come A
WHITE
MIDDLE CLASS
ROMAN CATHOLIC
WHO DOES WELL AT SCHOOL

CRAP I SHOULD JUST IMPRISON MYSELF NOW HUH?

[PanzerJaeger]

CRAP I SHOULD JUST IMPRISON MYSELF NOW HUH?

No, you should seek to imprison those whites and minorities who are trying to destroy the great society white, middle class Christians have created in this country. :shame:

Stand up for yourself. :2thumbsup:

[Alexanderofmacedon]

You now what man...
(Edited by Ser Clegane - please refrain from making such personal attacks) So I guess the kids who go round being dicks allday and wagging class who are of a certain race should be able to get all the freebees later on while I work my ass off. Ha and while being a Christian at the same time. So I guess to you I'm as bad as they come A
WHITE
MIDDLE CLASS
ROMAN CATHOLIC
WHO DOES WELL AT SCHOOL

CRAP I SHOULD JUST IMPRISON MYSELF NOW HUH?

I don't really like any religions (you should read the entire post before making personal attacks).

Not to mention, I'm praising someone of your faith. Don't say anything about dicks, if you are going to make those kinds of posts.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Alexanderofmacedon, don't hate religion, hate those who use it for evil

[Somebody Else]

Alexanderofmacedon, don't hate religion, hate those who use it for evil

Define 'evil'. For that matter, define 'good'.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Define 'evil'. For that matter, define 'good'.
you better not be trying to lead me into a grammer discusion...

Good, doing what is moraly right

evil, immoral and malevolent actions with undesirable results

[Somebody Else]

you better not be trying to lead me into a grammer discusion...

Good, doing what is moraly right

evil, immoral and malevolent actions with undesirable results

Okay, so what makes something morally right or wrong?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Okay, so what makes something morally right or wrong?
a number of factors

the intentions of the person making the action

the effect desired by them

their reason for the action

the actual result of the action and how it affects the world

its not black and white but shades of gray

[Somebody Else]

a number of factors

the intentions of the person making the action

the effect desired by them

their reason for the action

the actual result of the action and how it affects the world

its not black and white but shades of gray

And who's to tell whether someone's intentions are right or wrong? Whether the effect is good or bad... Does individual judgement come into it? Or is there some kind of moral absolute that we can anchor our morality to?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

And who's to tell whether someone's intentions are right or wrong? Whether the effect is good or bad... Does individual judgement come into it? Or is there some kind of moral absolute that we can anchor our morality to?
yes there is a moral absolute ''love your neighbour'' as for induvidual judgements, it is not for me to judge,

[Somebody Else]

yes there is a moral absolute ''love your neighbour'' as for induvidual judgements, it is not for me to judge,

Do you wish me then to promote the physical well-being of my neigbour? Or to aim for his happiness? What if by aiding one neighbour, I injure another?

[Sjakihata]

yes there is a moral absolute ''love your neighbour'' as for induvidual judgements, it is not for me to judge,

Is it for God to judge? If it is, then please refrain from using the good/evil argument, since He alone can judge it. If it is not God who is it then? And if I do something with malicious intentions, but end up helping a million of persons, is it then good or evil? And if I do something with the best intentions, but end up harming a million of persons, is it then good or evil?

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Do you wish me then to promote the physical well-being of my neigbour? Or to aim for his happiness? What if by aiding one neighbour, I injure another?
yes you should help them, love all your neigbours, though if your injuring your neighbour then your not helping him are you :inquisitive:


Is it for God to judge? If it is, then please refrain from using the good/evil argument, since He alone can judge it. If it is not God who is it then? And if I do something with malicious intentions, but end up helping a million of persons, is it then good or evil? And if I do something with the best intentions, but end up harming a million of persons, is it then good or evil?
i have made no good evil argument except that which you have assumed
i said ''Alexanderofmacedon, don't hate religion, hate those who use it for evil''
i have already said that it is not for me to judge and i have not named any who i believe to have used religion for evil i was only stating that the parts of relgion that he (and others) dislike so much are often the result of incorrect interpretations or people twisting the scripture to use it for evil purposes


now somebody else started talking about good and evil, that was beside my point if your going to dissagree with me, fine, do so, but dissagree with my point not with some ''good evil'' argument you think i have made.

[yesdachi]

Define 'evil'. For that matter, define 'good'.
The palladium RPG books have great alignment descriptions that describe evil and good surprisingly well IMO.

[Somebody Else]

y''Alexanderofmacedon, don't hate religion, hate those who use it for evil''
i have already said that it is not for me to judge and i have not named any who i believe to have used religion for evil i was only stating that the parts of relgion that he (and others) dislike so much are often the result of incorrect interpretations or people twisting the scripture to use it for evil purposes

In many religions, it is from the god/s that we get our basis for good and evil. In other words, if a religion has it that say... killing the first-born male child of each family is right to do, then that is - according to said religion - morally right.

[Duke Malcolm]

Indeed, Somebody Else has a good point. Good and Evil are all matters of opinion, each religion has its own interpretation. The missionaries of the 19th Century consider what they did to be good -- spreading their religion, and trying to bring the benefits of their civilisation to the Africans. People now look back and think the missionaries were bad, and in bringing their civilisation to the Africans they subjugated them (or so some believe).

[Byzantine Mercenary]

Indeed, Somebody Else has a good point. Good and Evil are all matters of opinion, each religion has its own interpretation. The missionaries of the 19th Century consider what they did to be good -- spreading their religion, and trying to bring the benefits of their civilisation to the Africans. People now look back and think the missionaries were bad, and in bringing their civilisation to the Africans they subjugated them (or so some believe).

opinion! realy! where do they teach this, everyones goin round saying it at the moment! :laugh4:

now if your talking about borderline cases maybe but in the main good can be seperated from evil

are their any comments on what i actually said?

[Alexanderofmacedon]

No, I think I can hate a religion for what it creates. I don't just hate any particular religion, I don't even really 'hate' religion. I hate the turmoil it creates. It's disgusting in my opinion...

[Duke Malcolm]

opinion! realy! where do they teach this, everyones goin round saying it at the moment! :laugh4:

now if your talking about borderline cases maybe but in the main good can be seperated from evil

are their any comments on what i actually said?

When there is one religion that everyone follows, with the exact same interpretation, then there will be definitions of Good and Evil is accordance witht the teachings of that universal religion. Without any such dogma, as we have today, there is conflicting interests in Good and Evil. One religion says something is good, another says it is evil. Furthermore, one interpretation of a religion might say something is good, another evil. And the same goes for athiests/agnostics. They have no finite moral code set out in a Holy Book, they have their own individual morals, which may conflict with other athiests/agnostics and even other religions. Good and Evil are always subjective, dependent on one's own views. As they say, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

And if I may digress, those principlse people may act by today may be considered evil in the future, with bad consequences. In improving health throughout the world, improving child mortality rates, raising life expectancies, the population might increase exponentially. This would lead to over-population, there may not be enough food and water to go around, there may even be wars over such resources. Thus something good today -- improving health -- may have evil consequences in the future.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

No, I think I can hate a religion for what it creates. I don't just hate any particular religion, I don't even really 'hate' religion. I hate the turmoil it creates. It's disgusting in my opinion...

then say that you hate religion as it can be used as an excuse to do bad things rather then that you just hate it, oh yeah and don't forget to hate football, money, land, women, racism, and everything else in this world that has been fought over or created turmoil :dizzy2:

[Byzantine Mercenary]

When there is one religion that everyone follows, with the exact same interpretation, then there will be definitions of Good and Evil is accordance witht the teachings of that universal religion. Without any such dogma, as we have today, there is conflicting interests in Good and Evil. One religion says something is good, another says it is evil. Furthermore, one interpretation of a religion might say something is good, another evil. And the same goes for athiests/agnostics. They have no finite moral code set out in a Holy Book, they have their own individual morals, which may conflict with other athiests/agnostics and even other religions. Good and Evil are always subjective, dependent on one's own views. As they say, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

And if I may digress, those principlse people may act by today may be considered evil in the future, with bad consequences. In improving health throughout the world, improving child mortality rates, raising life expectancies, the population might increase exponentially. This would lead to over-population, there may not be enough food and water to go around, there may even be wars over such resources. Thus something good today -- improving health -- may have evil consequences in the future.
look back at the post that started all this, i wasn't trying to judge people according to my moral code as you seem to think , somebody else asked my opnion and i gave it and now you complain that it is my opnion! :dizzy2: now in my opinion there is only one religion with one interpretation which is why the model works in my mind