Would you pick lettuce for $50 an hour? Landscape for $34 an hour?

[itchrelief]

I just read an article in the Los Angeles Times about how businesses need a guest worker program because US citizens will not do hard physical labor even for white collar wages (according to the business owners).

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-jobs18may18,0,2857043.story?coll=la-home-headlines
(requires registration, copy & paste of article in 2nd post, moderators please delete if this violates any rules)

There was a government landscape contractor who does things like freeway landscaping, who is legally required to pay at least $14 an hour for unskilled labor, $34 for experienced. She says she finds it is very difficult to find employees. As an example, she states she recently ran an ad in a local newspaper and only two people applied for a job.

John McCain while addressing an audience of union workers stated that Americans would not pick lettuce, even for $50 an hour. The union workers countered that they would, and a few showed up at his office later with heads of lettuce and applications to apply for lettuce picking jobs. (This may have just been grandstanding, however)

Honestly, I think that Americans won't work hard physical labor for minimum wage, but I disagree that they won't do the job at any price. My counterexamples: Alaska crabfishermen and oil field roughnecks.

I just think the two examples cited above in the article are extreme outliers to the median wage ACTUALLY being offered to do physical labor, and in the case of the government landscape contractor, I believe a bit more effort to advertise the wage would bring a MARKED increase in applications, especially if a quick transition were guaranteed from the $14/hr position to the $34/hr position.

[itchrelief]

From the Los Angeles Times

A Job Americans Won't Do, Even at $34 an Hour
Some landscape firms rebut claims that higher pay, not immigration reform, is needed.

By David Streitfeld, Times Staff Writer
May 18, 2006

Cyndi Smallwood is looking for a few strong men for her landscaping company. Guys with no fear of a hot sun, who can shovel dirt all day long. She'll pay as much as $34 an hour.

She can't find them.

Maybe potential employees don't know about her tiny Riverside firm. Maybe the problem is Southern California's solid economy and low unemployment rate. Or maybe manual labor is something that many Americans couldn't dream of doing.

"I'm baffled why more people do not apply," Smallwood says.

President Bush is not. In his speech to the nation Monday night, he referred to "jobs Americans are not doing," echoing a point he has been making for years. To fill these spurned jobs and keep the economy humming, Bush says, the U.S. needs a guest worker program.

Otherwise, the logic goes, fruit will rot in the fields, offices will overflow with trash and lawns and parks will revert to desert.

Countering that view, opponents of a guest worker program say that Americans would find the jobs more enticing if there wasn't foreign competition to swell the labor pool and push wages down.

Smallwood is ambivalent on immigration reform, saying demands for immediate citizenship by those who entered the country illegally are offensive. But without a guest worker program, she says, her company probably will not survive.

"To get workers, you have to steal them from other companies," the 54-year-old entrepreneur says.

Even that has been unproductive recently. She'd ideally like to add eight employees by the end of the year to her current staff of 12.

The lawn and landscape business in California is heavily Latino, with an abundance of illegal immigrants. In a study of Los Angeles County's "off-the-books" labor force, the Economic Roundtable, a nonprofit research organization, estimated that a quarter of the landscape workers were undocumented. That leaves the companies vulnerable to crackdowns, which has them agitating for guest workers.

At Smallwood's company, Diversified Landscape Management, there's one white employee, an engineer. The other employees are Latino and, as far as Smallwood can tell, all in the country legally. Her employees need driver's licenses and the ability to move through freeway checkpoints near the border, which tend to eliminate any with fake papers.

Thirty years ago, those in the landscape industry say, white crews were common. Now, says Jim Newtson, a San Diego contractor, "if you see a white guy, you do a double-take, like when you saw an interracial couple back in the 1960s."

Managers in the business explain it as a cultural shift, saying that native-born, middle-class Americans of all races and ethnic backgrounds tend to look down on manual labor. That leaves immigrants to do the work.

"The people I grew up with 40 years ago expected to work hard physically," says Bob Wade of Wade Landscape in Laguna Beach.

"This is a pretty pampered little town. The kids don't expect to work hard," Wade says. "A lot don't expect to work at all. They just float."

Wade fired one employee three times, the last time for going to look at girls on the beach instead of spraying weeds. The employee — his son — now works in the restaurant industry.

Larger economic forces come into play too. Orange County, for example, consistently has the lowest jobless rate in the state. Although that could be a draw for laborers in states with high unemployment, the high housing prices in the county act as a brake on that sort of migration.

Smallwood grew up doing manual labor. The daughter of a sharecropper in Mississippi, she had to pick her share of cotton from age 6. "I wouldn't do that again for any price," she says.

When she moved to California, she worked as a property manager, then developed a lawn-care business, which she sold in 1998. The death of her only child, Michael, from a drug overdose two years later drew her outside to her own garden. "I watered, fertilized, planted and pruned, determined that nothing else was going to die on me," she says.

That experience led to the creation of Diversified Landscape, which specializes in public works projects. Diversified Landscape installs plants on medians on city streets, creates rock formations called "blankets" for Caltrans on freeway off-ramps and builds irrigation systems on high school sports fields.

As a government contractor, Diversified Landscape is required to pay prevailing wages as calculated by the state Department of Industrial Relations. Experienced laborers earn $34.24 an hour; untrained "tenders" make $14.17. Each work site is required to have an equal number of laborers and tenders.

Landscapers such as Bob Wade, who work for private clients, pay much less — about $8.50 an hour to start. But Smallwood's higher wages don't seem to be helping her very much.

"Last July I ran an ad in the Riverside Press-Enterprise," she says. "I got only two responses." She hired one of them, who left after a few months for a job closer to his home.

Other landscapers also report a labor shortage.

"Our difficulty in hiring is horrible," says Cathy Gurney of Sierra Landscape & Maintenance in Chico, north of Sacramento. "We've been advertising for a supervisor, which would pay $15 to $25 an hour with full benefits. No one qualified is applying."

Some economists say such accounts don't mean that Americans won't do some jobs, but that employers such as Gurney simply aren't paying enough.

"Every time someone says illegal immigrants take jobs from Americans or do jobs Americans don't want, I want to scream," UCLA economist Christopher Thornberg says.

This argument makes Smallwood want to scream herself. On a recent job that went into overtime, a Diversified Landscape foreman, Vincente Sanchez, was making $52.34 an hour.

"How high can you go?" she says.

Outside her office one recent afternoon she encounters Bennie Gray, who says he earns about $60,000 a year detailing cars — a different kind of work, but also done in the hot sun. Gray, a thickly muscled African American, acknowledges that on an hourly basis, he might make more working for Smallwood, but can't imagine it.

"I'm not going to lie," says Gray, 48. "I don't want to work that hard. My ancestors had to work in the fields. My mom still talks about the splinters and sores."

Smallwood's employees have their own theories about the shortage of workers.

"They don't know what the wages are, and they're scared to get their hands dirty," says Marco Camberos. He's running one side of a two-person auger that will be used to dig about 7,000 one-foot holes along a mile of median in Laguna Nigel. The team is planting evergreen shrubs.

Camberos is making $18 an hour as a trainee. At 26, he has a bachelor's degree in chemistry from UC Riverside and plans to open his own landscaping business. "This is the means to an end," he says.

Telling Americans there are jobs they won't do isn't necessarily a way to endear yourself to them. Addressing a group of union leaders in Washington last month, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said the members of his audience wouldn't pick lettuce even for $50 an hour.

When some in the crowd angrily dissented, McCain demurred: "You can't do it, my friends." Three dozen demonstrators later showed up at the senator's Phoenix office, bearing lettuce-picker applications as well as heads of lettuce.

McCain may be allied with Bush on this point, but many other Republicans are not. Immigration is driving a wedge between the GOP and its longtime constituency in the business world. Smallwood has two signed photos of Bush on the wall of her office, one of them thanking her for contributing to the Republican National Committee.

Will she be making another contribution to the Republicans anytime soon?

"Not hardly."

That's due in large measure to her anger at her congressman, Rep. Gary G. Miller (R-Diamond Bar), who does not favor a guest worker program.

In January, Smallwood had a contentious meeting with Miller at his district office in Brea. She said Miller twice challenged her assertion that she couldn't find workers for $34 an hour, saying his son would work for that wage and offering to send him over.

Smallwood said she took the deal, but that his son never showed up. Miller declined to be interviewed.

Last week Smallwood wrote a flier that says she would pay $34 with experience and $14 without. The notice cautions that no application would be accepted "without verification of proper identification that allows you, by law, to work in the USA."

The flier is up in more than a dozen landscaping supply stores. So far, Smallwood says, there have been no calls.

[discovery1]

Depends on the landscaping. That freeway work I wouldn't do at any price. It would be easier to just throw myself infront of oncoming traffic. Now if it was someone's lawn, I would do it for 14 bucks an hour provided I can't find anything else, which is rather unlikely.

[Tachikaze]

I didn't read every word of the article, but while we're talking hypothetical here, the time involved would make a difference. Would I work in lettuce fields for a year for $50? Very likely. For the rest of my working life? I doubt it.

I like manual labor, to a degree. I have done mostly mental work in my life, and I have a lot of pent-up energy. It feels good to walk and lift and carry. I build things with wood (drums and stands, mostly) as a hobby. I loaded delivery trucks as a substitute work for a week or two, and I rather liked it.

Manual labor in the fields is probably much harder and may include health effects from pesticides and repetitive movement. It would be an interesting experiement to try the work and make a few extra bucks.

[Don Corleone]

Knock me over with a feather... I agree with Tachi. ~:pat:

I work upwards of 70 hours a week sometimes. I don't do it for money, I do it for the opportunity to do something better. The reason I wouldn't do landscaping (which I enjoy) isn't the hourly rate, it's the knowledge that there's no road to progress. If there was a roadmap whereby you could elevate yourself, become a site supervisor, then maybe a shift supervisor, then maybe run your own franchise, then jump up to corporate, I'd do it, I'd do it for a lot less than $34/hour. My problem is the lack of growth... nothing to strive towards.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Make high school attendence optional.

Allow 14+ agers to work in landscaping and non-machine agro jobs.


Likely long-term result:

Jobs filled by a stream of happy ex-high schoolers -- who work hard for a few months and then return to high school with a lot more incentive for their studies.

Three years working in a kitchen certainly got me motivated to study, pass, and get into a different employment stratum.

[drone]

I wouldn't have a problem doing manual labor for a while. Get to work outside, get fit and tan, meet interesting people. It would be a nice change of pace from sitting in an office all day long. But I wouldn't want to make a career out of it.

[Don Corleone]

You know, when I went to University the first time, I had the exact same attitude Drone. And for my sins, my request was fulfilled. Due to an over indulgence in the partying lifestyle, and an addicition to Nintendo that bordered on pathological at times, I was politely invited by my University to explore field studies. A year and a half later, after working in construction and frequently living out of my car, I realized what a foolish mistake I made. I went back to school and gave it everything I had. Now, if I want to work outdoors in the blistering 95degree heat, I can volunteer for Habitat for Humanity... I'm not relying on it for my livelihood.

[drone]

Since I'm older now, I'm not sure how well my body would take to it. But I've been getting the urge lately for a change, if for no other reason than to remind me how easy I have it now. A 6 month sabbatical "in the field" would do me wonders, I imagine.

I would much prefer manual field work to retail or fast food though. Dealing with people off the street on a daily basis in these roles just kills your confidence in humanity.

[PanzerJaeger]

I dont do hard labor besides working out.

[yesdachi]

I picked tulip bulbs for $3 an hour while I was a youngster, and then later de-tasseled corn for $3.50 an hour, and worked on local farms and such during summer breaks from school. At my current career status I am doing ok financially and with regards to benefits, retirement, advancement, etc. but $50 bucks an hour is around $100,000 a year, I could say goodbye to my shirt and tie, work outside, breathe non-circulated air, get in better shape for a year and payoff nearly all my debt. Heck yah, I would do it! I wouldn’t want to do it for the rest of my days but for a while it would be a blast and it beats the heck out of the $3 I was doing it for when i was young!

The unemployment rate is still over 7% here in West Michigan (it was over 15% for a while) almost double the national average (we’ve lost a lot of manufacturing jobs overseas and the ones people have got as replacements do not pay as well). I think the harsh reality of loosing the cushy union jobs have made people around here a little more appreciative of the value of money and I don’t think an available manual labor job would go long without being filled, especially one that paid decent. It’s all about supply and demand, in another area where the unemployment rate is lower there may not be people to fill the low paying manual labor jobs. The simple solution, pay your manual laborers more; your local economy is obviously robust enough to handle it. Breaking the law and hiring illegals is not an answer, I can’t even understand how it would be an option for an employer.

Here’s a little story for ya…
A chef friend of mine switched jobs from a restaurant on the west coast of Michigan to a restaurant on the east coast of Michigan (Farmington Hills) and was blown away at how difficult it was to find dishwashers and busboys for anything less than double what the going rate was on the west side. There are a lot of wealthy parents in Farmington Hills and their kids don’t normally have to work. Great example of supply and demand and how different it can be even in the same state.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I'd do it for $14 an hour I think. The job I'm trying for right now only pays $7.57 an hour so it would be a nice pay-raise.

*Remember I am still in high school, which makes anything above the minimum wage look pretty good.

[Vladimir]

I say we just bring slavery back and make these businesses happy. That's what they and the President want after all, some sort of indentured servitude. I wonder if the IRS can go after these businesses.

[John86]

Hell yes I would pick lettuce for 50 an hour. I would take the 14$ an hour for landscaping as well.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

$50 an hour? Hell yeah!:laugh4:

[Csargo]

I say we just bring slavery back and make these businesses happy. That's what they and the President want after all, some sort of indentured servitude. I wonder if the IRS can go after these businesses.

You can be the first new slave.

I would pick lettuce for 50 dollars an hour or landscaping for 14 it sounds good to me.:2thumbsup:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Cyndi Smallwood is looking for a few strong men for her landscaping company. Guys with no fear of a hot sun, who can shovel dirt all day long. She'll pay as much as $34 an hour.

She can't find them.Then she needs to offer a higher wage. Supply and demand, eh? For the right price she would get everybody she needs.

But if you have to pay $50 an hour to get your lettuce picked, you'll run out of business as you couldn't compete anymore. There is no shortage of workers, there is a limit in the wages you can offer while still making a profit. Unless you can convince people to pay triple of what they pay now for their lettuce and gardening work.

[Strike For The South]

The problem is she is in California there all small weak minded commies. I mow my yard for about 1/100 of that sign me up. I love manual labor much more than being a desk monkey

[Proletariat]

I dont do hard labor besides working out.

Ever mow your lawn?

[Kanamori]

Anything with varied activities is far preferrable to unvaried activities. Physical labor hardly bothers me, I enjoy it in moderate amounts. Rather than jogging, it can be fun to do something like chopping wood for the wood stove and such, as a change of pace. Uncomfortably hard labor is not fun, though. So, to answer the lettuce portion, I would respond with a flat 'no'. It would be far too boring to stand. Landscaping could be fun, in the right circumstances.

[Tachikaze]

The problem is she is in California there all small weak minded commies.
Being the richest state in the union, and having the seventh highest economy in the world (if CA were a nation), does that to you.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Yes, but the rest of the nation calls you "kalifornia" and thinks your crazy:laugh4:

[Crazed Rabbit]

The only reason wages for many manual jobs these days are so low is the huge influx of people who will work for crappy wages.

Also, McCain is stupid.

Oh, and I'd do manual labor for $14. Last summer I had to work for minimum wage doing hard manual labor with terrible hours and no overtime, but I still did it.

This summer, I've got a much better job.

Crazed Rabbit

[PanzerJaeger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
I dont do hard labor besides working out.


Ever mow your lawn?

Not personally. Im not opposed to it, but we have a yard guy. (Hes black, not mexican.)

[Papewaio]

Straight out of uni 8 years ago I was doing a days labour (10 to 12 hours) for $140... went up to $150 dollars after a few contracts.

That was as a Geophysics field hand in the jungle/Outback. All food and accommodation supplied only had to pay for alcohol. That job was far more intense then anything I did growing up on the farm and far more intense then doing weights.

Just to keep fit on the timeoff periods I had to hit the gym for 12 hours a week and even then my cardio-vascular conditioning would diminish.

Nowadays I hit the cafe for 12 hours a week and wonder why my stomach is so Rubenesque.

[itchrelief]

OK, now that I think about it, my poll is flawed. I need another option for "I would do manual labor, but you would have to pay me more than $50 an hour to do it." Guess it's too late to change it now in midstream. Oh well.

[BHCWarman88]

I'll do it for 50 bucks a hour,and that's it..

[Ja'chyra]

I've done worse for less, like unblocking the pump in a sullage pit, think I was on £160 a week then.

[spmetla]

I'd certainly do manual labor for those prices.
I do it now anyhow, I live on a coffee farm and when I'm not at school or doing National Guard things I help out on the family farm for no cost. I also do handyman work for other farms like keeping weeds down, chopping up and disposing of fallen trees and other work of that sort. I find it better than being a cashier or stockboy or something of that sort. Working with your hands is more enjoyable, you move the body break out sweat and while working can let your mind wander where ever you like. I'm a History major in school and spend enough time with my nose in a book and know my future career will involve a lot of it so I'm more than happy to spend summers doing work outside. Besides the physical activity keeps me fit and I go to sleep easier than when I've done nothing all day than lounge around the house. Why go to the gym when work is your gym?
Several of my friends build rock walls in the summer to pay for college and sometimes help me out for things like removing trees. My brother worked in a restaurant for a while as an assistant cook and another buddy of mine at a supermarket as cashiers and they where very unhappy about their jobs.
Picking macnuts and coffee though I don't like as much. Being a tall guy having to pick nuts off the ground or carry a basket full of beans all day makes my back a bit too sore. If I were shorter I wouldn't mind picking fruits and vegetables.

[Red Peasant]

It would be a great job for $50 (c. £25-30) per hour, but only if the hours are right. The problem with these energy intensive, body destroying jobs is that they normally demand 8-12 hours a day, 5-7 days a week. After that, most people are too exhausted to do anything else except try to recuperate all of the time, i.e. sleep, eat, drink, and watch tv in a daze. If the hours were only 4-6 a day for about 4 days week, then a person could pursue a more fulfilling 'life' outside of work, and it would leave room to employ another person to cover the hours. Result: happier workers and more employment.

But come on, who is going to pay 30 quid an hour to pick cabbages?

edit or 'lettuces', for that matter ~:)

[Sjakihata]

I wouldnt do it - slave work isnt my cup of tea

[Redleg]

To me it doesn't really matter what type of work I am doing - as long as I enjoy it.

I grew up working on a farm and in heavy construction prior to joining the military. If I lost my supervision job - I would return to that type of work if that was what type of job that was available.

Manual Labor can be very satifying to the soul regardless of the pay.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

especially when you can see the results of your labours

[Proletariat]

I wouldnt do it - slave work isnt my cup of tea

How is this slave work? Have you ever eaten a salad? Please don't ever eat anything that was grown again if you think it's the product of slave labor.

Some of the comments in this thread are really far out there. In Japan even the garbage man is respected since his role is appreciated as an important one.

If you pick lettuce you'll never be the CEO of Farm-mart, you might feel like a slave, or you could have rich parents and thusly consider it filthy, peon labor. But it's an ends to a mean and an honest living and I personally have alot more respect for someone who picks grapes all day than someone who sits in an office flirting with their secretaries for a billion times as much. Nothing against white collar workers, since that's obviously important as well, but this notion that blue-collar work is for the dirty, peasants is distinctly unAmerican (I know you don't care about that Sjak, this is in response to a few people here) and repulsive.

:no:

/end smug rant

[Sjakihata]

How is this slave work? Have you ever eaten a salad? Please don't ever eat anything that was grown again if you think it's the product of slave labor.

Some of the comments in this thread are really far out there. In Japan even the garbage man is respected since his role is appreciated as an important one.

If you pick lettuce you'll never be the CEO of Farm-mart, you might feel like a slave, or you could have rich parents and thusly consider it filthy, peon labor. But it's an ends to a mean and an honest living and I personally have alot more respect for someone who picks grapes all day than someone who sits in an office flirting with their secretaries for a billion times as much. Nothing against white collar workers, since that's obviously important as well, but this notion that blue-collar work is for the dirty, peasants is distinctly unAmerican (I know you don't care about that Sjak, this is in response to a few people here) and repulsive.

:no:

/end smug rant

You are right in regards that I couldnt careless whether it is considered unAmerican or not. You are wrong that you for some reason think you can read from my statement, that I hold not respect for workers and laboures. How do you think I have no respect for them? I just stated that I wouldnt do. Slave work is used in the sense that it is boring and repetitive, a kind of work (whether it is in an office, in a factory or in a field) that I would never use my life doing.

[Ser Clegane]

Well said, Prole

:bow:

[Idaho]

I dont do hard labor besides working out.
In front of a fuill length mirror I'll wager.

[Redleg]

You are right in regards that I couldnt careless whether it is considered unAmerican or not. You are wrong that you for some reason think you can read from my statement, that I hold not respect for workers and laboures. How do you think I have no respect for them? I just stated that I wouldnt do. Slave work is used in the sense that it is boring and repetitive, a kind of work (whether it is in an office, in a factory or in a field) that I would never use my life doing.

Oh I think the term slave work sums up why one would think you believe that you have no respect for workers and labor.

Having done labor work in my youth - I can safely state that its far from repetitive and boring. In fact I would say my white collar supervising job is more repetitive and boring then what my associates must do every day.

[Sjakihata]

Oh I think the term slave work sums up why one would think you believe that you have no respect for workers and labor.


Thank you for ignoring my definition of slave work. I too have done, and I can say a posteriori that it is boring!

[yesdachi]

How do you think I have no respect for them?
You called them slaves.
They are not and calling someone something they are not (especially a derogatory thing like “slave”) is kind of disrespectful.

[Sjakihata]

You called them slaves.
They are not and calling someone something they are not (especially a derogatory thing like “slave”) is kind of disrespectful.

Have I called them slaves? I called what they are doing for slave work, not them slaves. Read my text not what you THINK Im saying, thank you!

[Redleg]

Thank you for ignoring my definition of slave work. I too have done, and I can say a posteriori that it is boring!

Your definition does not matter - the term itself alreadly has a definition. Again it shows disrepect when one uses a degrading term.

[Redleg]

That you claim I ignored your definition shows that you didn't read the post correctly. You asked how someone could view your initial statement as disrepectful....the term slave equates to a negative view, a negative view often implies other things as well. Prol view was that your use of the term slave also implied disrepect in the way you used the term initially.

[Sjakihata]

So if I say I work like a slave, would that mean I am a slave, in the sense you want it to be? Or could it mean that someone is just doing a load of crap work? And yes, my definition does matter.

[yesdachi]

Have I called them slaves? I called what they are doing for slave work, not them slaves. Read my text not what you THINK Im saying, thank you!
Someone other than slaves do slave work?

[Redleg]

So if I say I work like a slave, would that mean I am a slave, in the sense you want it to be? Or could it mean that someone is just doing a load of crap work? And yes, my definition does matter.

Working like a slave implies many things. One is that your employeer does not have respect for you. It can also mean one does a lot of work, works long hours for a wage that they feel is to little pay. It often shows that one does not understand the value of their own labor. It demonstrates a lack of knowledge of history about what slave labor truely is. And finally it demonstrates a lack of respect toward self or others depending on how one uses the term. Like Prol I found your initial statement to demonstrate disrepect toward those who labor on the non-glorious and repetive jobs that often must be done in today's society - just as it was done in the past.

And no your definition does not matter when it applies to common terms and how they are percieved especially when one did not clearly define what they meant before hand.

Exchanges of conservation does not necessarily mean what your intent of your statement is - but how it is percieved. There are a few words that imply disrepect in their use. Slave just happened to be one of those terms.

I hear workers say that they work like slaves many times. And I always ask them what they mean by that - and guess what the answer always turns out to be?


that they believe their being at work entitles them to a paycheck. That they should not have to do anything but show up for the day in order to be paid. This attitude demonstrates a lack of ability to understand the relationship between pay and their efforts.

And its always meant as a disrepectful attitude toward having to do work.

[Sjakihata]

Working like a slave implies many things. One is that your employeer does not have respect for you. It can also mean one does a lot of work, works long hours for a wage that they feel is to little pay. It often shows that one does not understand the value of their own labor. It demonstrates a lack of knowledge of history about what slave labor truely is. And finally it demonstrates a lack of respect toward self or others depending on how one uses the term. Like Prol I found your initial statement to demonstrate disrepect toward those who labor on the non-glorious and repetive jobs that often must be done in today's society - just as it was done in the past.

And no your definition does not matter when it applies to common terms and how they are percieved especially when one did not clearly define what they meant before hand.

Exchanges of conservation does not necessarily mean what your intent of your statement is - but how it is percieved. There are a few words that imply disrepect in their use. Slave just happened to be one of those terms.

I hear workers say that they work like slaves many times. And I always ask them what they mean by that - and guess what the answer always turns out to be?


that they believe their being at work entitles them to a paycheck. That they should not have to do anything but show up for the day in order to be paid. This attitude demonstrates a lack of ability to understand the relationship between pay and their efforts.

And its always meant as a disrepectful attitude toward having to do work.


Come to think of it, Im wondering why Im defending myself on this matter. I have said what I have to say on this matter and some strangers perception of me and my potential disrespect for workers couldnt matter less for me, so have a good debate!

[Redleg]

Come to think of it, Im wondering why Im defending myself on this matter. I have said what I have to say on this matter and some strangers perception of me and my potential disrespect for workers couldnt matter less for me, so have a good debate!
Probably because you realized how degrading the term actually is - and wanted to see if it was defensable. Good to see that you realize that using such an anology is not worth defending.

[makkyo]

I certainly would do those jobs. But don't we have guys called coal miners in our country that work for even less? :book:

[Kanamori]

If you pick lettuce you'll never be the CEO of Farm-mart, you might feel like a slave, or you could have rich parents and thusly consider it filthy, peon labor.

Au contraire. The most free, often some of the most rich, couldn't care less about what someone thinks of them, and if they enjoy the work they will do it without hesitation, but also probably in disgust that you want to pay them! (Again w/ experiences.:laugh4:) A friend of mine is the heir to a fortune, and interesting landscaping work is what he does to keep himself busy during parts of the summer. His mother also buys homes and has people fix them, as her hobby, if it's any indication of their situation. Point being, some of the most pretentious are the middleclass people who have made a small bit of money, not the people who are sitting on large piles of it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh dear, what danger there lies in cultural misunderstanding...

Slave work is a non-offensive term in Danish. 'To slave at something' is a non-derogatory verb used in everyday conversation. Students tell each other 'Jeg slaver på skolen' - I work like a slave at school. White collar workers complain about being worked like a slave - 'slaver på arbejdet'. Nobody associates it with the historical concept of 'slavery'.

For Americans - it is no mere coincidence that all who took offence are Americans - 'slave' or 'slave work' is a highly charged term. It has entirely different connotations than it does in Denmark. I do not need to explain why.


Even with both sides having engaged in conversation in the same language, something got horribly lost in translation. :help:


Edit:1) hmm, I would like to hear a non-American native English speaker's take on the above.

2) Of course, Proletariat is right in that manual labour is underappreciated. It is shameful arrogance to look down on people for no other reason than that their clothes get dirty during work. :furious3:

[Avicenna]

Wow Americans must have high demands.

In China, there are coal miners who risk their lives to earn less in a few years (four) than what you get in an hour picking cabbages.

[Brenus]

China is hardly a democracy and Unions take order from the Communist Party. So…

[Proletariat]

Au contraire. The most free, often some of the most rich, couldn't care less about what someone thinks of them, and if they enjoy the work they will do it without hesitation, but also probably in disgust that you want to pay them! (Again w/ experiences.:laugh4:) A friend of mine is the heir to a fortune, and interesting landscaping work is what he does to keep himself busy during parts of the summer. His mother also buys homes and has people fix them, as her hobby, if it's any indication of their situation. Point being, some of the most pretentious are the middleclass people who have made a small bit of money, not the people who are sitting on large piles of it.

I wasn't speaking in generality when I made the comment you're referring too.

:2thumbsup:

[GoreBag]

Come to think of it, Im wondering why Im defending myself on this matter.

He who fights with monsters...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Landscapers annoy me. I realize the need for them to saw improve the highway grass or mowing corporate walkway grass, but you should be man enough mow your own lawn.

I do it, with my brother. It's not that hard.

[yesdachi]

Landscapers annoy me. I realize the need for them to saw improve the highway grass or mowing corporate walkway grass, but you should be man enough mow your own lawn.

I do it, with my brother. It's not that hard.
There could be lots of reasons for someone to hire someone to mow their lawn. My neighbor is old as dirt and hires a service to do his lawn, thank goodness, he’d probably keel over if he did it himself. Plus, there were several kids I grew up with that did it for summer money. :bow:

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Neighborhood kids, yeah, but not a whole business.

Eh, I know I'm being unreasonable...

[spmetla]

There's also landscapers that maintain golfcourse, public parks and the like. Also here in hawaii a lot of the rich from the mainland have summer homes in Hawaii, some of these in gated communities which require that lawns be maintained so landscapers are hired to keep the grass down when their gone. Landscapers also plant trees, flowers, and maintain gardens which is nice for community places that aren't county property.

For those of you that refuse to do manual labor, why? Do you consider it beneath you? are physically incapable? Just curious.