WotS The Will of the Senate - Senate Deliberations [Archive] - Page 2

Dutch_guy

05-30-2006, 16:26

Good day to you all Senators,

I see a lot has been discussed of our future plans, but before I lay my plans before you all, I wish to congratulate Consul Quintus with his achievements thus far. Had your soldiers hailed you Imperator on the field of battle, I then would have supported a Triumph, now however as that is not the case, I must respectfully disagree with senator Amelius on that matter.

I see that while I was sleeping Sicily has been successfully taken, and that we are now at war with Carthage also.

That, I did not expect to happen on such as short notice...however I do agree that they were the ones who started it. They should never have positioned a large force near our consular armies.

Since they started this conflict we should offer them a ceasfire, the same goes for the treacherous Greeks. We should try and make some money of both of them before we completely destroy them, what do you think ?

Eventually I propose to use that newly aquired money to finance the re enforcement of our current standing armies. If that is done, we should recruit a new one. To, when the time comes, send North.

If both the Greeks and Carthaginians refuse our offer of a ceasfire, and with respect I would like to see some proof of their refusal, we should destroy them utterly. I propose to then take out Carthage first, this will not bring us into direct contact with other factions but it would give us some very fertile land, and a great trading centre. Greece 'll endanger our good relations with Macedon, and would maybe even ( if Macedon is still allied to the Greeks ) bring us into an expensive war against Greece backed by the Macedonians.

We'd win, of course, but it will cost us dearly I imagine.

Now as for the motions....I've obviously missed a few of them, and I must inform myself before I pass judgement.

:balloon2:

econ21

05-30-2006, 18:50

[QUINTUS]: Senator Lucius Amelius is most generous in proposing awarding me a triumph. He requests that I verify that I meet the conditions for such an honour.

Once condition is to slay 5000 enemies.

If this refers to a single battle, then clearly I have not met the condition (OOC: we may want to scale up - according to the historical army guidelines, our RTW legions are about 400 men; real life they were about 10x as large).

If it refers to all twelve battles I have personally led as First Consul, then alas the total slain is only 4990 enemies (for the loss of 453 of our own).

However, if we add to that total the three victories obtained in my campaigns under the leadership of my Legate Tiberius Coruncanius, at Paestum and elsewhere, then we will exceed the 5000 total.

A second condition is that I be Consul. My victories were achieved as First Consul and although no longer standing for that post, continued command of "Consular Army I" would allow me to retain the title of Second Consul.

The third condition is that I return the army to Roma. Senators, nothing would give me greater joy than to bring the men back home. Returning our Consular army would allow us to refit our troops with the improved equipment from the armoury under construction there. It would also make it easy to transfer replacements to bring our cohorts back up to full strength. Finally, it would bring our Consular army close to where the next fighting is likely to be - in Gaul.

However, noble Senators, you will all have seen the potential threat posed by the Carthaginian armada currently at sea. If the Consular army is to return, it is essential that Legio I, currently en route to Sicily, be stationed on the island and in fact be supplemented by additional troops - notably cavalry and triari.

Craterus

05-30-2006, 18:53

Senator Marcus Laevinus, to what reasoning do you wish to deny our Consul Quintus his deserved triumph? Having led such a successful campaign with so few losses, I see no reason not to proceed with the ceremony. Surely such military prowess deserves to be recognised and celebrated?

On the issue of Carthage: I believe that a ceasefire should be sought after until we can achieve naval superiority. The Carthaginians are a maritime power with forbidable fleets. Seeking to conquer their lands would require a large, powerful fleet which, as far as I'm aware, we don't have access to currently.

On the issue of Gaul: It has been proposed that we hold off this inevitable war for at least 5 years whilst we look to resolve economic problems. It has also been said that a conquest of Gallic lands in Nortern Italy could relieve some of the monetary problems we are facing. Should it be proven that these spoils of war will replenish our coffers, I will reconsider my opinion on the matter. However, it is uncertain wether the military could handle the conquest alone, let alone a counter-attack from the barbarians.

I say we remain peaceful for the next few years, raising enough money to develop our naval technology and perhaps raise some legions in preparation for a conquest of the Gallic tribes in Northern Italy.

Dutch_guy

05-30-2006, 20:07

flyd

05-30-2006, 20:13

What follows is the manifesto of Tiberius Coruncanius, candidate for Consul.

Senators, this is a very important time for our republic. We have established Rome as an undisptued regional power in Italy, and it is now time to move to the next phase, becoming a world power, one capable of challenging Carthage or any of the successor states.

To acomplish this, we need a fleet. Without a fleet, the only thing we'll ever be able to conquer will be barbarian lands, which have nice scenery but little else of interest. Even to secure Italy from invasion we will need a fleet. We are currently at war with two naval powers, who can strike at us at will, and receive no retaliation. We need a fleet, urgently. There are many other things we need: auxilia infrastructure, economic infrastructure, and more legions. But they are all secondary to our need for a fleet. We need a large fleet, at least 20 ships to support amphibious operations of Consular armies. We also need an advanced and powerful war fleet to challenge the Carthaginians and the Greeks, and to establish naval superiority over the western and central Mediterranean. Infact, what we really need are two fleets! In time, of course, and for the moment we should focus on getting at least one.

I understand many of you see the building of a fleet as a costly and time-consuming effort, and that is perhaps true for a highly advanced fleet, as it would neccesiate the development of a lot of infrastructure. But most of the Greek cities we captured already contain the infrastructure for the construction of Aphracts, which we can use. Within one year, we could have a fleet sufficient to transport a Consular army, and we could finance it without tapping into the current treasury, but alone from the income we will gain over the next year! Of course, it won't be a very advanced fleet, and if it ever defeats a Carthaginian fleet, it would be by outnumbering them, but we could still invade Africa from Sicily. The distance involved is short, and the Carthaginian fleet is not defending that strait vigorously, probably because they don't expect an invasion.

As far as the north is concerned, I see it as a target of opportunity. If there is a good opportunity to conquer some land, and then reestablish peace, without detracting from the efforts in the south, then we should take it. But I have no interest in starting a major campaign against the Gauls. There is nothing up there, and the Gauls are not hostile at the moment.

The Carthaginians on the other hand, are hostile, and will remain so. Even if we make peace with them, they would invade Sicily at first opportunity. We would have to leave a large army down there, compromising any efforts against the Gauls. By invading Africa, we do one of two things. We either gain a very advantageous negotiating position should we want peace. Or we effectively destroy Carthage, should that be our objective. In either case, we could gain a stable peace, and many new lands. The war against Carthage cannot be over while they still have the ability or will to strike us in Sicily or Italy.

If I am elected Consul, my primary goal will be to see the Carthaginian threat eliminated quickly and decisively. If, on the other hand, you wish this conflict to drag on, with our lands continuously threatened, then feel free to vote for someone else.

Mount Suribachi

05-30-2006, 20:30

First of all, Senator Quintus, may I both congratulate you and apologise to you. I must confess I came to this Noble House full of ire at what I saw as your warmongering against the mighty Carthaginians. However, now I have read your consular report I see that I was most hasty. The crucifixion of 2 Roman Citizens by Carthage was quite simply a crime that could not go unpunished! Furthermore, I believe that the conquest of Sicily does not even begin to avenge their great crime! This house knows my feelings on expansion & declaring war by our noble Republic, but Carthage must be made to pay! I shall not be satisfied till they are on their knees begging us for peace!

My father is correct when he says that we need a fleet, both for offense and defense. Without a fleet, our lands lie at the mercy of Carthage who have the ability to land troops at will anywhere along our extensive coastlines. We need a fleet at the very least to protect Rome. But my father is also correct to point out that even a small fleet could transport an army to the city of Carthage before they even knew they were there. I would delight in our troops looting treasure from their royal palaces and stripping the gold from their temples. Perhaps, once we have stripped the city to the bone we could offer it back to them in return for peace?

But I let my desire for revenge take my thoughts too far into the future. We must build a fleet and we must avenge ourselves on Carthage. We must vote for my father, Tiberius Coruncanius

Glaucus

05-30-2006, 21:05

Some of the opinions of my fellow senators confuse me.

You talk of consalidating our current holdings and raising more fleets and armies. Let us not forget that everyday Gaul grows in power as they too consolidate their lands. Soon, we may find a Gaulic Army at the doors of Rome herself. Then again, they may never come.

Right now all we have is speculation. I think it is unlikely that Carthage will accpet a ceasefire, they have many advantages now: stornger navy, more settlements to draw troops from etc. That means we can only hold them off until we are ready to challenge them for control of the seas. Let us leave the first Consular army in Scilia, so that we can repel any attack.

Then comes the issue of Gaul, I think they are ready for war, and we are not. We should raise at least another Legion to head north and support Legio II. This will allow us to protect our lands, and launch a counter-attack at short notice. This should please all of us here in the Senate, it will give us infinite options and choices for future conquests of Rome.

Braden

05-30-2006, 21:15

Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, I must ask your views....perhaps ideas on a few issues that correspond to your manifesto.

Firstly, I wholeheartedly agree with your proposal that we need a significant naval presence and you have appraised the Senate that several of the Greek settlements we have liberated have the technology to build ships, although quite weak when compared to those that sail from Carthage. This idea interests me greatly and my question is thus: Would it be wise or even fiscally better to seek other Greek settlements with similar or even more advanced ports?

I think to those in Illyria initially due to there location near to us.

My next question deals with logistics. How much land does Carthage control? Do you see yourself as Consul securing Carthage herself, or would that fall to the next Consul or the one beyond that?

Now, lastly, the Gauls. I am certain I speak for many when I ask what measures for our security do you intend against any Gallic incursions? I personally would rather countance a short expansion to secure those Gallic lands directly to our North prior to committing fully to the conquest of Carthage. To my knowledge, the Gauls are still yet to be united and all we will do is remove their disparent states and cease being a bordering nation with them.....a lack of direct borders often leads to a swift resolution of hostilities.

I am, like you, not overtly concerned with the Gauls other than the tactical placement of their lands to the North. They are, in effect, the gateway to Italy and then Roma.

Should we not be the gate keeper?

I believe you hold the Gallic warriors with too much caution, I strongly suspect that a small force can secure our borders for many seasons to come and well within 3 years.

It would but be a minor diversion whilst we prepare fully for Carthage, would it not?

Death the destroyer of worlds

05-30-2006, 22:57

My fellow senators,
Once again I will run for the the office of first consul. I place myself in the exalted company of my fellow candidates to win your favour.

Consul Quintus has won a crushing victory, but a glance at our territory shows we have had to pay a heavy price for his bold offensives. Our economy is severely underdeveloped and our armies are battered and too few in number. We deperately need to reorganize and build. Why, without revenues from the new ports from Sicily we would be facing financial disaster ! The time has come to build and reorganize.
I agree with senator Tiberius Coruncanius that we should be wary of the Cartheginians and need to prepare a fleet to take the war to them. This is an expensive and long term operation and will not task our budget overmuch, as most of the required facilities are now in our hands thanks to Consul Quintus.
I also agree with most of the senate that the Gauls should be pushed back over the Alps where they belong. That said, I must say I was shocked to learn that no guard towers had been build at our northern frontier to give us advance warning of a possible Gaul raid while most of the army was away fighting in the south. I find this a serious oversight, but will leave it at that, considering the consul's long list of sucesses in his 5-year reign.

Should you elect me, I will concentrate on bringing our economy out of its sorry state and improving our standing armies and garrisons. A start will be made at building a fleet the moment the dockyard is finished, and construction of other ports will be a high priority to speed up the construction process.
When a small fleet has been assembled and a small praetorian army becomes available, I will attempt to capture our neighbouring islands which are held by Carthage. They will provide us with stepping stones for our eventual invasion of Afrika itself.
The moment troops are available another praetorian army will begin the conquest of Cisalpine Gaul. Loath as I am to make a third nation our enemy, we need to attack out of strategic necessity. We need to capture the strategically vital city of Patavium and expand our borders to the mountain passes. Then we will have a strong and secure frontier, which can be more easily defended.
Accordingly, I will send out more diplomats to bring in more trade and perhaps forge an alliance with the Iberians against Carthage. Most importantly, I will attempt to broker a peace deal with the Greeks, so we can profit from the valuable trade which this nation generates and will not need to fight on three fronts at once.
The remaining troops will be divided across our newly acquired territories to provide security while these goals are accomplished.

econ21

05-31-2006, 00:44

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Motion #4 has been withdrawn by Senator Sextus Antio.

I remind the Senators, and especially the candidates, that if they intend to go to war with Gaul in the first two and a half years, it would be advisable to propose a motion enabling that in advance, otherwise it will be hard to secure the required Senate backing. Some motions do authorise war, but candidates should be content with their form of words or propose alternatives.

GeneralHankerchief

05-31-2006, 00:58

Death the destroyer of worlds

05-31-2006, 01:09

As I think very complicated motions will tend to be voted down I will propose seperate and simple motions, which will however overlap with existing ones, but will allow the senate to specify their desires more exactly. My apologies to the scribes in advance.

Motion #4 : An attempt should be made to conquer Cispine Gaul (requires declaration of war with Gaul).

Motion #7 : An attempt should be made to further weaken the power of Carthage (will require the building of a fleet).

Motion #8 : An attempt should be made to make peace with the Greeks (requires sending a new diplomat).

Motion #9 : We should construct a fleet.

Motion #10 : An attempt should be made to create an alliance with the Iberians, with the goal of further weakening Carthage's power.

Furthermore, I would advise other senators that they can propose a motion to make peace with Carthage (I won't, as I do not desire it yet). They can also propose a motion to award consul Quintus an Ovation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovation) instead of a full triumph if they think he does not deserve one, but that he has done well anyway (I won't do that either, but I can see some discontent in the senate).

Death the destroyer of worlds

05-31-2006, 01:16

Senator Aemilius, I have but one question:

You speak of extending your borders to the mountain passes. Once Jenuensis, Bononia, Mediolanium, and Patavium have been taken, what then? Will you continue to expand? Make peace with Gaul? Guard your borders?

I fear we Romans have too much taste for glory and not enough for comfort. What good are victories if there are no Romans at home to enjoy the spoils?

Senator GeneralHankerchief, I will cease expansion, as we will be overstretching ourselves already by then. I only advise to do this, as it will significantly improve our strategic position. Especially Patavium is immensely important for our security. I will station on a strong garrison there and a praetorian army within striking distance of all four towns. I will also construct guard towers to watch for an approaching army. I will also endeavour to make peace with the Gauls after my strategic objectives have been reached, but I will not resume trade with them as this has been forbidden by this house.

TinCow

05-31-2006, 02:27

Treason! Senators, the Republic is being encouraged to ruin for personal glory and private gain! My most 'honored' collegues, Tiberius Coruncanius and Lucius Aemilius, seek to plunder and loot, no matter the cost to the Republic.

Senator Coruncanius agrees with me that Gaul is not worth the effort of a major offensive when so many provinces are lacking in infrastructure and our Legions are stretched thin. Yet at the same time, he proposes that we launch a full scale invasion of Africa! For this, he requires that we build port facilities, a massive invasion fleet, and enough Legions to take on the Punic foe at the very heart of his power, yet he also expects to expand the auxilia network and economic trade system. Senators, where is this money to come from? It is true that we have a seasonal income of nearly 10,000 dinarii, yet has any of you even considered the cost of the improvements which we all agree are required? Basic road networks alone will cost us 6,000 per province, and there are five provinces with such needs. The first phase of Auxilia training will cost 3,000 dinarii per province and seven provinces have need of this, most basic of improvements. Shipwrights in Rome and Tarentum, necessary if we are to engage in any prolonged conflict with the naval powers of Greece and Carthage, will cost 10,000 dinarii each! Just these three most necessary of improvements will cost us nearly two full years of the Treasury's income, and that does not include the cost of further economic and military improvements, the construction of a fleet capable of dominating our enemies and of Legions strong enough to invade another continent! Even the 10,000 dinarii income is deceiving, as our rapid military build-up will quickly reduce this down to a small amount, even if our foes decide not to blockade our ports with their powerful navies. An expedition against Punic Africa is not mere folly, my brothers, it risks the lives of every single Roman and puts the Republic in vastly unneeded danger.

As for Senator Lucius Aemilius, he desires to build our economy, prioritizing foremost the most expensive, yet necessary, naval facilities, while simultaneously invading the Carthaginian islands and taking all of Cisalpine Gaul. This is sheer insanity. Certainly, we can build fleets strong enough to defeat Carthage and Greece. Certainly, we can take the island provinces. Certainly we can take Cisalpine Gaul. What we cannot do is all of this at once! Senator Lucius Aemilius plans on capturing Cisalpine Gaul and I believe he can do it. No foe can withstand the might of Roman arms, but capturing a place and holding a place are two very different things. Senator Aemilius speaks as if holding the Alpine passes is a simple thing. His solution is to station a single Praetorian Army to cover all four provinces with the aid of a 'strong' garrison in Patavium. Yet three of those provinces cannot even be protected with walls, leaving them vulnerable to a lightning attack by the Gauls who will move before his Army react. In addition, the Gauls are not likely to great our Legions with flowers in their arms. There will be great unrest and garrisons will be needed to prevent any revolts by the barbarians. We will be sinking money into these provinces, but for what gain? It will take decades before any of them prove economically useful. These are barbarian towns, not civilized cities such as we have taken up to now. We will need to occupy and greatly invest in these provinces before we ever see any return at all. It will be a vast drain on our treasury, not a windfall. So what other reason is there? Security? Only a blind man could see more security in the occupation of four hostile provinces bordered by two barbaric peoples with five avenues of attack than in the strengthening of a border of merely two strong, Italian provinces that have a mere three avenues of attack. Gaul is our enemy, to be sure. They must pay in blood for their crimes against Rome, but now is not the time. What Senator Lucius Aemilius proposes will bankrupt the Republic for the sake of some smelly barbarian hovels!

Senators, I plead with you, show these short-sighted men that you are not as foolish. Examine the state of the world and explore the true costs of military, economic and infrastructure development for yourselves. We will risk all if we continue with massive campaigning against strong foes. We may win such a contest, it is most certainly possible. Yet such a win would still be a loss. Why conquer when the conquests bring less gain than domestic development? Why risk all when we can have all with no risk?

Perhaps Lucius Aemilius is excessively influenced by his 'Merchant' friend, who we all know is his oldest and most trusted advisor. Perhaps Tiberius Coruncanius needs more land for his extensive family. I do not know their motives for such folly that will benefit none but the looters and the priests. You all know me and you know my reputation. I am no great governor, no great politician. I am a simple military man, but I my loyalty to the Republic is known far and wide. Of the three of us, I would benefit the most from a prolonged military campaign, yet I oppose such a venture. I am loyal to the Republic. No loyal Roman would ever take such a risk with our very existence.

Senators, ask yourselves, where do your loyalties lie?

Ignoramus

05-31-2006, 02:38

How corrupt some senators have become, when wealth and power are in their sights. They seek not the good of the Roman people, but the advancement of themselves. They speak of foolish notions, such as invading Africa, instead of using our wealth for common good, rather than for the glory of a few.

GeneralHankerchief

05-31-2006, 03:04

Well said, Senator Virginus; well said indeed. I have nothing to add on to, but perhaps you should run for Consul yourself. You would have my support if you did.

TinCow

05-31-2006, 03:20

I am in fact running for Consul, though only out of a desire to serve the Republic and not for personal glory. My manifesto was made public yesterday, but it can be found in the Senate Library along with those of my colleagues.

shifty157

05-31-2006, 03:43

Might I implore certain senators to realize that many of the improvements they speak of building throughout the empire are very very costly. Indeed thopse that are not beyond the capabilities of our current treasury would require the vast majority of the treasury. How much do you really propose to build considering our current financial constraints? Regardless of how much you envisage yourself of constructing i will tell you that you will find yourself and your dreams severely disappointed by our limited treasury.

As to those who propose fleets of warships to combat established naval powers such as Greece and Carthage I propose the same question. How much do you really propose to build considering our current financial constraints? Assembling such a fleet would require entire treasuries and leave little or no money for anything else.

Do you really believe that you can speak a word and fleets and stone roads will spring into being?

Our treasury needs to be increased. It must always be increased. And indeed the most permanent and most cost effective way in which to do this is through conquest.

Perhaps the worst crime in proposing such lengthy periods of peace is the cost of maintaining all of these armies which we have assembled. Paying these men to do nothing when they could instead be put to good use increasing our wealth and influence. Proposing to leave them to lie about is a horridly inefficient use of resources. Suddenly these armies become a burden rather than an asset.

flyd

05-31-2006, 04:56

Braden

05-31-2006, 09:43

Members of the Senate, as you know I have never been in favour of any military action that would bring us into conflict with Carthage. I have and still believe that we are not strong enough…yet…..however, the die was cast and we now find ourselves at war with them, weather we like it or not!

Carthage will NOT sit by and accept our unopposed occupation of Sicily. They will press us and compel us to battle at every point they can, they will blockade our ports and kill our troops.

Whilst I sense that a counter invasion of Afrika is beyond us in the next 5 years, I feel that Tiberius Coruncanius’s forward view and determination to at least make us READY for such occurrences makes him my favoured candidate.

Gaul. The truth be told, I feel insecure here in Roma with only Arretium between us and those Hordes of Chaos! Whilst I am not “scared” I am certainly worried enough to see the value in the short-term conquest of the regions to the North. For tactical reasons I understand the arguments, for and against this action so perhaps we should authorise further and more detailed investigation as to the economic wealth of these regions?

They lay on seemingly, fertile plains thus I surmise they should be able to sate our need for denarii with minimal investment. It is clear that I could be wrong, or those saying they are areas of little wealth could be equally wrong.

I can only think of one way of settling this argument……first hand information.

I say that should our agents inform us that these settlements a profitable we take them for the Republic….if they do not then we re-enforce the pass between Arretium and Ariminum.

Is it possible that our agents find this information out?

I suggest that the next Consul invests in our infrastructure first and foremost. Should it be seen as advantageous to take the Gallic lands to the North I still do not believe it will take a significant improvement in our current standing armies hence can be achieved alongside any building improvements.

Yes, without question, we must raise a larger navy to protect our ports from blockades and protect our lands from invasion.

However, I do not believe that we will be in a position to invade Afrika within the next tenure of Consul. The building blocks of such an undertaking can be laid in this next tenure, the undertaking itself can only successfully be completed in the 5 year period beyond the next.

So, whilst I strongly support Tiberius Coruncanius for Consul and applaud his plans I also acknowledge that it is unlikely that he will complete these plans……the treasury will just NOT support it all in the time period he wishes to complete it. It will not be the Senate that prevents his final actions but simply a lack of fiscal funding and I do not believe that a Senator of Coruncanius’s standing would bankrupt the Republic for personal gain, nor destroy its armies in a fruitless invasion.

econ21

05-31-2006, 11:06

[QUINTUS]: I would like to ask the candidates three questions:

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

Mount Suribachi

05-31-2006, 11:30

Motion #7 : An attempt should be made to further weaken the power of Carthage (will require the building of a fleet).

Motion #8 : An attempt should be made to make peace with the Greeks (requires sending a new diplomat).

Motion #9 : We should construct a fleet.

Motion #10 : An attempt should be made to create an alliance with the Iberians, with the goal of further weakening Carthage's power.

I would like to second all of these motions

Motions 7 & 9 are no-brainers conscript fathers,we need a fleet first and foremost to protect ourselves from Carthage. We will also need a fleet if we are to go onto the offensive, have vengeance on Carthage for their great crimes and finish this war that they forced us into

Motion 8 - we cannot go on fighting 2 enemies at once. Carthage is the greater threat in the short and long term, so we must concentrate on them.

Motion 10 - it is of great concern to me that we currently have no allies anywhere in the world, whilst we fight wars with 2 of our nearest and most powerful allies.

As for Cisalpine Gaul, whilst I see the strategic logic in occupying it, the truth is Conscript Fathers that now is not the time - we are over-stretched and under-funded, vulnerable to attack anywhere due to our long coastline and small navy. We must focus our efforts on the troubles at hand, not create new ones.

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

Second Consul Quintus, whilst I am not standing for the Consulship may I state my opinion that taking these islands would be a fools errand. Attacking Carthage here would do them as much harm as poking an elephant with a stick. We may be able to take these islands easily enough, but all it would do is further overstretch our limited resources, thin our army out, and add more cities that need Romanising! We would be unable to support, reinforce and re-supply our armies there, and Carthage would be able to easily blockade the ports.

We must concentrate our forces defensively, ready for any Carthaginian counter-attack, whilst at the same time building our strength whilst we wait to go onto the offensive ourselves.

As with Cisalpine Gaul, the last thing we need right now are more provinces!

TinCow

05-31-2006, 12:18

What is this, Verginus? You are listing random buildings, saying how much they cost, and presenting that as proof that our treasury cannot support a war with Carthage? We do not need shipwrights, we do not need auxilia, we do not need road networks. We have, at this very moment, nearly 10 provinces in which we can build Aphracts, which only cost 700 each. Our treasury and current income can easily support the acquisition of 20 or so we'll need over the course of a year.

And what do you suggest we do instead? Sit around and wait for the Carthaginians to march on Rome? I only propose what is necessary to ensure the survival of the Republic.

We do not need shipwrights? We do not need roads? We do not need auxilia? Do you hear this, fellow Senators? Senator Coruncanius believes he can fight the might of Carthage while only able to produce troops from our original three cities. Need I remind you that not a single of our new conquests is capable of produce anything but boats and agents? Even if Rome, Capua and Ancona recruit Legions and Auxilia constantly, we will be outpaced by both Punic and Gallic recruitment. As for shipwrights, does Senator Coruncanius plan to take on the Punic navy with nothing more than light warships? We might as well throw velites into melee with Spartans! If we are to be victorious on the seas, we must have powerful ships with which to defeat our enemies. As for roads, how does Senator Coruncanius expect to reinforce threatened borders? What if the Greeks were to land at Tarentum? It could take our Legions half a year or more to reach that place to defend it! Half a year more would be wasted returning to the Gallic frontier. I do not know about you, Senators, but I do not relish the idea of weakening our border with the Gauls for a day, let alone a year!

How is the conquest of Africa necessary for the survival of the Republic? Our Legions can defeat all which oppose them, but they must be full strength legions and they must be supported and supplied. How can we do this when they are in Africa and our only recruitment bases are in Rome, Capua and Ancona? An invasion of Africa can only be accomplished when Sicily itself can support the attack. This is what we should be doing.

[QUINTUS]: I would like to ask the candidates three questions:

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

Certainly. I am only standing for Consul this term because of my firm belief that Rome must concentrate the majority of her efforts to short term domestic development. It is fully my intention to make the Republic ready to deal with any threats, whether they be Greek, Gallic or Punic. If I was elected, I would step down happily and vigorously support the election of a capable military commander to lead our Legions to further victories in whatever campaign this body chooses.

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

It is more than economic, Senator Quintus. I am not an economist and my construction proposals go beyond providing more income. Certainly more roads and ports will increase income, but we are severely lacking in the infrastructure to support long-distance campaigns, especially in Africa. As I stated to Senator Coruncanius, we have only THREE cities in which we can recruit men for the Legions and the Auxilia. This is totally unacceptable. We must be able to raise men in many places at once to deal with threats both expected and unexpected. We must have roads and ships to transport these men to the threatened areas.

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

If you shall recall, I was the *first* to propose such a thing. Of course, the lack of a serious fleet will make defending them difficult. That is why I shall build a formidable fleet before embarking on the expeditions. I must say again that I am not a pacifist. I recognize the benefits of conquest as well as any other. I am merely urging a more limited expansion over the next 5 years than my opponents. Why take Africa when we cannot yet support our Legions there? Why take Gaul when it will make us more vulnerable and drain our Treasury?

Senators, I do not propose to sit idly by. I propose that we build the strength of Rome into a mighty force that can strike anywhere it wishes, any time that it wishes. In five years we can advance in full force against any place that this body sees fit to take. In the mean time, let us pluck the the easy pickings that will secure our shores and let us build our strength.

I say again, why risk all when we can have all with no risk?

Braden

05-31-2006, 12:22

Senator Amulius Coruncanius, whilst is seems good prudence to wait now and focus internally and defensively I am greatly fearful that Carthage as a power will out produce us and out expand us completely.

Second Consul Quintus has worked hard and paid in blood to try and elevate the Republic on par with Carthage, if we pause now they will surely outstrip us further and his work will be to nought.

I do agree that we need to build infrastructure but we must not completely pause now, we are in a race against a great power and if we sit back and do nothing to expand and prosper we will surely become just a protectorate of Carthage!

I strongly believe that within the next 5 years we can achieve so much to further our cause against the Carthenaginians. We can raise a 4th Legion, we can expand our influence physically and diplomatically, we can improve our current settlements and we can raise a navy of no small note.

What we cannot do is invade Afrika, nor do I feel we would be prudent in seizing all the islands mentioned until we have at least TWO navies in which to support our troops on those islands.

The Republic must expand in which to ensure our future against an ever aggressive Carthage to our South, easy expansion North is my hope for the next 5 years, coupled with careful improvement of our main cities and the raising of a 4th legion and one navy.

Yes, these are NOT small tasks BUT they are achievable for the next Consul and will NOT bankrupt us or lead us into a war we cannot win now.

We do not need to focus completely on internal matters, we need to be more prudent than that and be selective in what the Republics money is spent on to ensure maximum output.

The newly liberated settlements are lower on the improvements list than our core cities, they will have to remain so until Carthage is at least pacified. A navy is high on our improvement list also, our armies need only bolstering and the addition of one Legion to see us past this next phase, we need income from all avenues as a priority. Conquest brings slaves and money into the Republic, it is not as great a cost as is being described here. Tiberius Coruncanius’s Legion is not as weak as many here advise, nor are the Gauls as strong.

The next Consul will be faced with very hard choices when it comes to spending the Republic’s funds that is sure and he can plan or commit to whatever projects he pleases but I am sure that the reality of a Carthage threat and our need to at least keep pace with them, will steer his endeavours.

Braden

05-31-2006, 12:30

Senator Augustus Verginus, if I may quote you "In the mean time, let us pluck the the easy pickings that will secure our shores and let us build our strength."

If you are discounting expanding North into Gallic held regions and discounting liberating the Islands or Carthage....

.....where are you proposing you expand?

econ21

05-31-2006, 18:50

[QUINTUS]: Having taken the time to study the manifestoes of the three present candidates for First Consul, I must express my pleasure at the clear and substantive choices we have been presented with. I would like to take this opportunity to summarise my perception of the differences in the programmes of the three candidates.

Augustus Verginius offers a period of consolidation. Peace with Carthage and Greece, if it can be obtained. The seizure of Melite, Carolis and Aleria, if Carthage is obstinate and our fleet capable. My perception is that this is a safe course of action and I have no doubt that my the Senator has the skill and Rome has the capacity to deal with any threats that may emerge.

Lucius Amelius offers a similar programme, with the addition that he intends to march north into Cisalpine Gaul. This course of action, although more risky than that of Senator Verginus, is close to what I advocated in my end-of-term report to the Senate. I have no doubt the Senator could succeed in his plan, given the tactical skills he demonstrated at the gates of Rhegium. However, I would caution against advancing north with less than a Consular army. While we may triumph when greatly outnumbered, fighting against the odds would needlessly increase our losses.

Tiberius Coruncanius offers us the prospect of an invasion of Africa, while maintaining peace with Gaul. I must confess this proposal initially astounded me in its audacity. The weakness of our fleet had led me to rule it out in my end-of-term report. And yet on reflection, I suspect it could just work. The distance between Lilybaeum and Carthage is not far and with luck a fleet of transports might traverse it without interception by the stronger Carthaginian navy. A Praetorian sized army could be landed initially and be safe against attack, then soon reinforced to Consular strength. The prospect is thrilling, although whether my excitement stems from the size of the possible rewards and the extent of the risk involved, I cannot fathom.

Senators, I hope I have not misrepresented the proposals of any of our fine candidates. If I have been accurate, then truly we are fortunate at this moment to have such clear alternatives displayed before us. We will not be choosing on personalities or petty factional loyalties, but on grand matters of state and most particularly on the level of risk we are willing to take. It will not be an easy choice and personally I confess I need further time to reflect on which course of action to endorse.

flyd

05-31-2006, 21:42

I will take time to address the issues raised by Verginus, and to answer the questions posed by Quintus.

We do not need shipwrights? We do not need roads? We do not need auxilia? Do you hear this, fellow Senators? Senator Coruncanius believes he can fight the might of Carthage while only able to produce troops from our original three cities. Need I remind you that not a single of our new conquests is capable of produce anything but boats and agents? Even if Rome, Capua and Ancona recruit Legions and Auxilia constantly, we will be outpaced by both Punic and Gallic recruitment.

Yes, we can be outpaced by Punic and Gallic recruitment, and that is why we go to war. If we take their cities, they can't recruit anything. If we remain idle, they will outpace us, and then attack us. Then we are going up against them with only our three provinces recruiting, but the fight is in our lands, and the discrepancy between our armies is even bigger because they had time to exploit their advantage. Imagine they had the ability to recruit two more units per quarter than we, and we started with equal armies. After one quarter, they would have two more units than us. After two quarters, four more units. After a year, eight more. In just over two years, they could have an additional consular-strength army, and that's just with 5 provinces working instead of 3. Now then, would you attack now, or wait two years to be attacked?

As for shipwrights, does Senator Coruncanius plan to take on the Punic navy with nothing more than light warships? We might as well throw velites into melee with Spartans! If we are to be victorious on the seas, we must have powerful ships with which to defeat our enemies. As for roads, how does Senator Coruncanius expect to reinforce threatened borders? What if the Greeks were to land at Tarentum? It could take our Legions half a year or more to reach that place to defend it! Half a year more would be wasted returning to the Gallic frontier. I do not know about you, Senators, but I do not relish the idea of weakening our border with the Gauls for a day, let alone a year!

The naval situation is not ideal, but if we wait too long, the Carthaginian navy may increase as their army could. I don't expect our fleet to engage in direct combat with the full strength of the navy of Carthage. Indeed, its primary purpose would be to support the army. But they could still win engagements against Carthage if they're numerous enough, and, as they're cheap, they could be more easily replaced than the Carthaginian ships. You say it would be like attacking Spartans with velites, but you don't specify how many velites or similarly light troops would there be. I ask you, who won at Thermopylae?

A Greek attack in Tarentum is unlikely, especially if we make peace with them, as they are busy in Illyria, so I don't understand why you are panicking. I expect to leave some garrison there, in any case.

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

Certainly. I'd say you established that as something of a tradition.

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

It's difficult to say outright. From an economic standpoint, mines are always useful, as are traders, although higher level ones only if there are a number of ports within reach, which is more the case in the south than in the north. The dual-purpose of roads cannot be ignored. The indirect economic effect of temples and such is valid, but I'm not sure if it's significant compared to dedicated economic buildings.

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

There isn't too much value in those islands, at least for my plan of the invasion of Africa, and they would be bypassed. But there may be some value in diversionary attacks prior to the invasion of Africa. Not Malta, as it's too close to the invasion route, but Sardinia and Corsica. If the Carthaginians were to try to take them back, it would take a part of their army and much of their fleet away from our real target. And should they not want those islands back, then we have ourselves some new islands, which is never a bad thing.

GeneralHankerchief

05-31-2006, 22:14

Gentlemen, what we have here is an excessive case of fear-mongering.

"Rome is in danger," you cry out like parrots. "If we do not strike them they will strike us!" I have had quite enough of this!

Contrary to what some members of this house believe, the only warlike state around is our own. The Carthaginians have just lost the entire island of Sicily. Their power has been compromised. It will take some time for them to regroup. They do not threaten us. We threaten them. Likewise with Greece. Their leader, a war hawk, has been killed by us. They have also lost plenty of territories courtesy of us. They will not return.

As for Gaul. They have other problems to settle. While we have not directly given them a blow I am sure that they are fighting off the other barbarian peoples, as well as conquering the independent cities. And yet still you see them as a looming terror. Gaul is smart. They are worrying about Gaul rather than Rome.

Senators, it greatly saddens me to see your attitudes about these foreign situations. You speak as if every minor faction around us has the limitless armies like the old Persian king Darius. You also speak of our great city being the primary target of every single one of these factions. According to you, they are all determined to destroy us, no matter what the cost. Fellow Senators, I plead with you to return to Earth.

Look around at our city. A great majority of the people live in terrible poverty. Their -and our- economic situation is dire. And yet some candidates continue to aim to build the military, which is apparently the only thing worth spending money on! Gentlemen, one day your military bill is going to far outpace our economic growth, and then where will be? If war is all we care about then we are no better than those barbarians that Senator Coruncanius seems so worried about. That is why I wholeheartedly endorse Senator Augustus Verginius as the next Consul. He, at least, has his priorities straight.

Glaucus

05-31-2006, 22:34

Manifesto of Publius Pansa

I, Publius Pansa, stand for Consul in the year 275. Rome needs a strong leader now more then ever. Pyyrhus has been pushed aside, but in his place come blonde barbarians in the north and dark Carthiginians in the south.

Regarding Gaul: The Gauls are neutral now, but have they not a history of breaking alliances and attacking Italians? I feel a push is needed in order to give us more breathing room in the North, not to mention the natural barrier the Alps will pose. We should not go any further then the Alps however. Nor should we attack Gaul immediately. We should raise at least another legion, preferably two, before attacking Gaul. This would allow us to blitz Gaul and take all her Italian holdings before she can react.

Regarding Carthage: They lie accross the sea and are more powerful then Gaul. Why should we not attack them, you may ask. The answer lies in the facts, because they are accross the sea and are more powerful then Gaul. We do not have nearly a strong enough navy to launch troops into Africa. Not to mention the lack of troops themselves. We cannot afford to weaken the south of Italy any more then it already is. So I promise you, I will strengthen the garrisons of southern Italy, and promote naval buildings in Syracuse and Tarentum. Let Carthage sail towards us and fight, it will be in our lands and on our terms.

Regarding Greece: Although getting a peace with these people may seem neccessary to some, I say let them fight with Illyria, and let us hold our hostilities with them. The enemy of my emeny is my friend, so hopefully the Illyrians will not decide they have intrests in Patavium before we can get there.

Now I shall answer any questions you may have:

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

I certainly agree. There are many here in thsi house willing and able to server as First Consul. This is a Republic after all, and I shall avoid running again. If though, as Cincinnatus once did, we are need of a leader, I hope both you and I and every member of this house is willing to take up the sword and lead in times of trouble.

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

Where neccessary, we should build traders. These promote economic growth, and population as well. Unless I am very much mistaken, all of our current holdings have a sea border, so a trader will help overseas and land trade alike. At your suggestion, Quintus, I will built sea-buildings in Syracuse and Tarentum, since these are apparently the best for ship-building.

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

I do not think this is neccessary or wise. Why weaken our current holdings for lands which we won't be able to hold onto anyways? Carthage will eaasily be able to take them back and certainly will blockade the ports, so they are of little value to us.

According to you, they are all determined to destroy us, no matter what the cost.
GeneralHankerchief, if we are not cautious and do not suspect everyone, then we will be destroyed. He does not stirke first is first struck, and if we rule Rome assuming Carthage and Gaul and Greece are all out there to be our friends and allies, we are fools. Great empires are not maintained by timidity.

shifty157

05-31-2006, 22:45

This empire does not need to go to war out of fear of being outpaced or attacked by stronger foes. No I believe we are quite safe in our position.

This empire must go to war to expand its income. Our current income is not nearly enough to support such large buildings efforts as are proposed. Nor is it large enough to support such large fleets as are proposed.

And so we must gain more land not out of fear or anything as stupid as that but out of the need to gain more gold.

mediobogdum

05-31-2006, 22:52

Let me begin by giving thanks to Jupiter Capitolinus for granting to Quintus and the Republic such glorious gains
in the past five years. I cannot think that Jupiter encourages us with these successes to discourage us from continuing
a congruent course of action. I believe His will is quite to the contrary.

It appears that Augustus Verginius, & Lucius Amelius offer us variations on a theme. Both seek to grow our economy by
sending Diplomats to sue for peace with our enemies thereby buying time to build our strength. Both seek extraterritorial
nuggets to augment our internal growth with plunder and act as the wetstone for the fighting edged of the legions. Prudent,
it would appear. Little danger in either of those courses of action. Prudence often makes the difference between glory
and disaster. It is the watch word of the sagacious elders who have seen much and can attest to its benefits.

I have not come before you to argue against Prudence my brothers. I do however worry that Prudence has been mistaken.
How easily Indecision and Timidity come before us clothed in the robes of Prudence. A much better speaker than this humble
Patrician once said "In the way of every great and noble enterprise stands the desire for safety." We are tasked with
more than just the safety of this mighty Republic. We are tasked with the complete annihilation of our enemies. Jupiter
demands it!

The opportunity Quintus Victor has handed to this Republic cannot be passed over. Sicily is a dagger pointed at the heart
of the Carthaginians. From Lilybaeum in the far west a crossing to Afrika is certainly feasible with only a couple of more
ships. This plans brilliance is in its perceived difficulty. The greedy Phoenicians will never remotely suspect such thing.
Perhaps some feints at the islands that Augustus Verginius wants to conquer may be prudent to ensure that they will
never suspect our true goal.

Romulus did not rule this city because he made peace with his brother. Brutus did not rescue us from Tyranny with sound
economic policy. Please Senators, Brothers, Romans, I implore you to cast your vote for Tiberius Coruncanius.

Death the destroyer of worlds

05-31-2006, 23:17

Honored senators,

I have been occupied with organizing the governing of our new conquests and I am smeared behind my back ! Senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow) has the audacity to accuse me and senator Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude) of treason ! I will not stand for these allegations. No man can claim me to ever have put my own good before that of the Roman people ! He further insinuates that I am the slave of our traders and want to go to war to fill their pockets.

I spit on these allegations !

Not only are they vile in nature, but also a clear demonstration that senator Augustus Verginus lacks the most basic understanding of the workings of our economy, which all of us are in agreement, is in dire need of improvement. Clearly, he is the man of the hour (*sarcasm*). It is well know I have a good relationship with our traders and it is the people that profit from it. The profits generated by our merchants are the only reason our people are not starving to death right now, with our budget stretched to the very limit. Instead of being villified by senator Augustus Verginus, the merchants should be praised and encouraged as much as possible. You are all men of rank, so I will not continue this explanation, as you hopefully are blessed with a better understanding of finance than this 'honored' senator.

As to the charge that the raids and possible capture of the Cartheginian islands are a major drain on our strained finances, that is another obvious misconstruction of reality. The Carthegian towns on these islands are very lightly garrisoned and can be taken by lightning raids by a force as small as 4 maniples and 4 ships to transport them. These towns are also well developed, with lucrative ports and markets, which our own towns are sadly lacking.
In the worst case scenario, even if we only held on of these towns for a single season, we would still have gained, as the the profits of just one season would pay for the whole cost of fitting out the raid. I suspect however, that the Cartheginians will give up on the islands once we capture them and instead concentrate on their colonies in Spain instead. Even if they do not, we will have been fighting them on their soil instead of on our own. Which do you think our people would prefer ?

Now I will answer the questions posed to me by consul Quintus :

(1) Will you commit not to stand for re-election for another 10 years? Roma will not abide a dictator and I believe there is enough talent in the Senate to fill the shoes of the First Consul.

I would think this a logical assumption, it had not even crossed my mind to stand for re-election. If the senate called on me to stand for office I would of course comply.

(2) What building investments do you believe to be the most profitable? I confess, inspecting the further details of each settlement, I was not able to identify particularly high return investments beyond mines and traders (the latter I valued as much for their benefits for population growth as for their monetary return). Indeed, I wonder if temples and other buildings to raise loyalty will pay off more than strictly economic ones, if they allow us to raise taxes without stiffling population growth.

Our most pressing need is roads and traders, followed by mines and markets. Roads are absolutely vital military, and also produce trade. The traders are cheap to build and I will build these when I lack the funds to build markets or mines. I might build several temples in towns which do not have an italian culture to surpress unrest.

(3) What is your opinion about minor naval landings in Melte and perhaps Sardinia and Corsica? We can only land three units, but I believe with a couple of cohorts, I could seize lightly defended settlements. The question is whether you believe the Carthaginians would try to reclaim them, in which case our lack of a serious fleet will make defending them very difficult.

I believe I have answered this question in detail just now.

Finally, I will further clarify my position on Cispine Gaul. The three minor town are relatively unimportant, except for Jenuensis, which might become a valuable port town in the future. The key here is Patavium, which is a walled town of immense strategic importance. We need it, it is as simple as that. The Gauls are not be trusted, and they are too near Rome to give me a good night's rest as I was campaigning in the south with my family at home in Rome. What would be a better place to fight an invader ? At the unwalled town of Arminium, a stone's throw away from Rome itself ? Or in Cispine Gaul, which is perhaps the most easily defended stretch of land in Europe ? It is now held by the weak Gauls, who can be dislogded easily, but what if Macedon or Greece, or even Carthage strikes there before us ? We would be in a very dangerous strategic situation. I believe in defense in depth. We must strike them the moment we are ready.

Finally, I would discuss the strategy of senator Tiberius Coruncanius who seems to have a most vocal following. What strikes me most about these followers of him, is that they applaud him wildly, and then critize his strategy ? :stupido2: It seems to me his bold, but completely unrealistic, plans of African conquest stir the hearts of these men, and then a little later their brains catch up with them. I would advise these men to listen to their minds a bit more. Then perhaps they will realize that my strategy is the one their minds agree with and they will not let their hearts carry this nation into folly.

Lastly, I would welcome Publius Pansa as a candidate in this election.

TinCow

06-01-2006, 00:00

If you are discounting expanding North into Gallic held regions and discounting liberating the Islands or Carthage....

.....where are you proposing you expand?

Senator, if you will re-read my statements, including my manifesto, you will see that I have, at all times, specifically stated that I would annex the Carthaginian islands if war continues. I believe that Senator Lucius Aemilius has made a similar mistake in interpreting my words.

If we remain idle, they will outpace us, and then attack us. Then we are going up against them with only our three provinces recruiting, but the fight is in our lands, and the discrepancy between our armies is even bigger because they had time to exploit their advantage.

Yet I do not propose to continue recruiting from only three provinces. I plan to invest heavily in auxilia training to allow many of our newly allied Italian provinces to contribute their strength to the fight. In the meantime, I shall continue to build with the three available training centers and continue to strengthen the Gallic border. By doing so I will not lose out on one single recruit that you would otherwise be able to contribute, yet I will also maintain the formal truce on our northern border, allowing our Italian allies the maximum amount of time to prepare so that we may count on their full support when war comes. You, on the otherhand, will need to divert nearly all recruiting in our three current provinces to support your invasion of Africa. You will leave the Gallic border weak and Rome vulnerable for the sake of Punic plunder.

I ask you, who won at Thermopylae?

Why, Senator... the answer to that would be the Persians.

Glaucus

06-01-2006, 01:15

I have, at all times, specifically stated that I would annex the Carthaginian islands if war continues.

If I may ask, Senator, how will oyu take the islands from the Carthaginians when only one unit can fit on each boat, and how will you hold on to them? Even still, what good are they to Rome if Carthage will surely blockade the ports? Their farm-land is sub par, their importance comes from trade. How will you trade if the ports are blocked?

econ21

06-01-2006, 01:43

[QUINTUS]: I cannot speak for my former Tribune, Senator Verginius, but I would like to address the issue of the outlying islands held by Carthage.

I believe it is a simple matter to take them with only our present 3 ships. Give me a cohort of hastati and one of principes, and I will take them with very little loss of life. A couple of lesser formations can then garrison each one, while I move on to the next target.

We have the advantage that both Malta and [edit:] Corsica lie close to our ports and so our fleets need not be exposed to enemy naval interception. I believe there is a land-bridge between Corsica and Sardinia.

It is possible that Carthage may seek to blockade them or even launch a sea-borne invasion to retake them, but I doubt they will make a sustained effort. Even in the worst case, I cannot see us losing more than a minor garrison.

Craterus

06-01-2006, 01:57

Noble Senator, I think you are referring to Corsica..

Ignoramus

06-01-2006, 02:06

flyd

06-01-2006, 02:29

shifty157

06-01-2006, 02:40

[House Speaker]

Senators. In your bickering you have forgotten the true purpose of these sessions. Yes debate is necessary but we are here to make motions to guide the next Consul. This session is without point if we fail to do so.

So if you have something you would like to be done, a goal to achieve or a guideline to be met or a restriction to be adhered to, then it is best for you to propose a motion so that it may become law. Debate does not make law.

For those candidates wishing to invade Gaul it may to your advantage to propose a motion for the senate to approve the declaration of war. Otherwise you may find yourself with little to do if you were to gain the position.

To the candidates. You may lose the election but you can still truly win if motions regarding your own course of action are passed.

TinCow

06-01-2006, 02:46

If I may ask, Senator, how will oyu take the islands from the Carthaginians when only one unit can fit on each boat, and how will you hold on to them? Even still, what good are they to Rome if Carthage will surely blockade the ports? Their farm-land is sub par, their importance comes from trade. How will you trade if the ports are blocked?

An excellent point, which is why I have continuously emphasized the need to expand our naval power. This has been one part of my development agenda from the very beginning, to include the continued construction of facilities to allow the launching of powerful vessels in addition to our current light weight design, something that Senator Coruncanius claims we do not need. While I believe Senator Quintus' statements that he could take each settlement with only two cohorts, we could quickly assemble a fleet of light warships capable of landing nearly an entire legion. Senator Quintus, who is, in my opinion, the only qualified man for the job, could easily subdue both islands and garrison the towns with this force. While this is being accomplished naval developments will continue as will research into more advanced hull designs. It is possible that these ports may suffer under Punic blockade for a short time, but our continued expansion of the fleet and its proximity to reinforcements in home waters would quickly prevail.

Some may deem this an excessive expenditure for a candidate so concerned with domestic development. To them I ask, will Carthage refrain from blockading our current ports if we leave them be? No, brothers. We all know we need a navy. We all know we need a strong navy. Faithful to my word, I will build such a force and with it we can keep the Punic ships at bay. Corsica, Sardinia and Malta are closer to our territorial waters than Punic ones. We can reinforce and repair our fleets faster than the enemy and in these areas we can and will prevail.

Ignoramus

06-01-2006, 04:46

Tell me, Antio, if you would perhaps prefer that I invade Africa by myself?

I care little for your arbitrary challenges or conditions. I intend to invade with a full consular army, and whatever other support forces necessary. I intend to ensure victory, not set limitations and gamble for it. I feel we are very lucky that you decided to become a diplomat and not a soldier.

I do favour expansion, however, Rome must rest been conquests. An endless succession of wars will only serve to weaken the provinces, and incur the wrath of all the other powers.

Remember our neighbours the Samnites, did it not take several wars to defeat them? How many more wars will we have to fight to subdue Carthage, who is larger, richer, and more powerful than they.

I was appointed diplomat by Consul Quintus. I have been faithfully doing my duty in negotiating with Rome's neighbours.

You have done well, in your military command. However, do not be rash and seek to achieve more than you can.

Senators, I think it is time that we express our opinions once more on the three regions bordering us.

Africa
Cisalpine Gaul
Illyria-Greece

I, for one, think expansion ought to wait for 5 years. We can consolidate our gains, and improve the economy. Then, the next consul can lead Rome's legions to victory over her enemies!

I propose Motion #16

MOTION #16: This house moves that a senator be appointed historian of the republic, and record the our glorious history.

Braden

06-01-2006, 09:35

Senator Publius Pansa,

I have but one question I feel:

Will you, if finances allow, commit to build roads in our states? I feel that the benefits of roads are perhaps even greater than traders but coupled with traders we will have great benefits indeed.

Senators, at this point I now feel torn by loyalties. On one side I have my long standing friendship and support for Senator Tiberius Coruncanius, however, whilst I agree with virtually all of his manifesto I do not agree with his continued pledge to assault Afrika directly……and now Senator Publius Pansa has entered the field with a pledge virtually identical to my own thoughts of what should occur during the next Consular session.

I am dearly sorry Tiberius, friend, I would not ask you to compromise your vision for my behalf and I know you would not ask me to support someone who’s plans do not agree with what I feel is best for the Republic……..therefore, I must withdraw my support for Senator Tiberius Coruncanius and place my house banner behind Senator Publius Pansa’s seat.

My own feelings are that the Republic must consolidate and build upon the gains First Consul Quintus gave us, but we must also not just sit back and do nothing else lest we loose the upper hand against our greatest enemy Carthage.

Senator Publius Pansa has committed to building up to two more Legions and to strike fast and true against Cisapline Gaul and secure our borders against the Alps. I can only fully support this course of action as the best balance between Action and Consolidation.

The Republic will gain more territory and the Legions we will need against Carthage, whilst being able to financially support construction of some key buildings and infrastructure. I feel that adventures in “Island hopping” are folly until we have had time to build our navy sufficiently so that we can transport a full Legion within one flotilla to support any Islands we liberate, of course, at the same time we’d need such a Legion free to do this…again we do not have this at this time and will require time and coin to build one.

I believe that Senator Publius Pansa, will allow us this time, coin and action in his tenure. I also believe that it will be the task of the Consul who follows the next one to invade Afrika and I will support that venture at that point.

I would like the Senate to put a Motion forward authorising War against the Gauls but I fear the Scribes have exhausted all the room available for such a motion and it will have to be placed as an emergency motion after the elections……assuming Senator Publius Pansa gains the Senates support.

Avicenna

06-01-2006, 09:39

I must agree with Senators Verginius and Antio. The Carthaginian island colonies are lightly defended, and we should take advantage of this fact to deal them a blow. It is not a matter of economy, as Carthage will surely blockade their ports and send in soldiers. No, the victory in capturing these island colonies will be more subtle. We will gain a morale boost, having captured Carthaginian lands so easily and quickly. We will also earn a little bit of money from trade until the Phoenicans regroup their fleet and blockade the islands. Income can also be made from farmland and trading within the islands. We will also deny the Carthaginians this income, dealing their economy a blow. Finally, should the Carthaginians choose to send in a massive force to retake the islands, so be it. Their navy and armies will be out conquering the insignificant islands, while ours will be free to attack the Carthaginian heart at Africa, should the next consul choose to do so.

Of course, to manage to conquer their colonies while preparing an invasion force will require patience on the next consul's behalf, and, surely, our economy must be upgraded to finance the raising of the invasion force. When I use the term invasion force, I do not mean merely building a land army. I also propose to build a fleet as well, to contest Carthage's and divide their empire.

Of course, should the senate disagree to attack Africa, we could always strike Iberian Carthage instead. It would probably be lightly defended, and the Carthaginians in Iberia will most likely have their hands full fighting the Iberian barbarians, leaving their provinces vulnerable to Roman occupation. Again, this is to leave the Carthaginians weaker, so the eventual destruction of their Republic will be easier for us.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-01-2006, 10:49

For those candidates wishing to invade Gaul it may to your advantage to propose a motion for the senate to approve the declaration of war. Otherwise you may find yourself with little to do if you were to gain the position.

Several such motions have already been proposed.
I think motion#16 is already being handled by the senate scribes and the senate librarian. Perhaps the senator Sextus Antio would like to withdraw his motion ?

GeneralHankerchief

06-01-2006, 11:56

I think not alienating all of our neighbors would be healthy for our economy.

Motion 17: This house mandates the Consul to train a second diplomat. That diplomat is to attempt to make peace with Greece, as well as try to get trade rights with them. This is to be attempted within the next Consul's reign.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-01-2006, 12:29

I am willing to expand my

MOTION #8: An attempt should be made to make peace with the Greeks (requires sending a new diplomat).
Proposer: Lucius Amelius (DDW)
Seconder: Anon (by influence)

to include an offer of trade rights (as I intended to offer that anyway, as can be read in my manifesto), or GeneralHankerchief could withdraw his motion #17. I advise the senators to check the motions already proposed to see if they are not already proposed (post#1 of this thread, the vestibule). Also the last motion filed is #10.

Ignoramus

06-01-2006, 12:43

May I respectfully request of the Senate what am I to do? I am in the plains of Parthia, and I fear that once you have hired another diplomat, you shall ignore me, and shall leave leave me to grow old and amongst barbarians.

MOTION #11: This house moves that we send Tiberius Coruncanius to Africa with one legion only, and that he must not return until he has taken the following settlements: Carthago, Utica, Hippo Regius, Hadrumentum, and Thapsus, and must have taken thm in 5 years. He may not receive reinforcements until he has been there for 3 full years.

If Tiberius Coruncanius agrees to this, I Sextus Antio, shall vote for him as consul. Tiberius Coruncanius has expressed his intention of invading Africa, and now this enables the Senate to endorse his invasion.

Braden

06-01-2006, 12:51

Senator Sextus Antio, fear not. I will endevour to make it my task to ensure you are given a new assignment.

However, it is the "lot" of a Roman Diplomat to have to put up with the Barbarians as they surround us......what are your feelings about a journey to Iberia?

econ21

06-01-2006, 15:20

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The deadline for submitting motions is 6pm today. However, our scribes can only arrange votes for 14 motions and we are almost at that now.

I have merged the two motions on peace with Greece.

Senator Antio, I have numbered your motion about a historian as eleven. If you do not wish to withdraw it, I will renumber your motion about Carthage to #12.

I have also received a motion from Quintus. He notes that an army may enter our territory and menace a town that we cannot defend. He therefore proposes that the First Consul be able to immediately intercept such invaders before they are able to strike us first. He is thinking particularly of the defences in the north, where our border legion could not reach Arretium in time to save it, but could intercept a Gaulish incursion before it reached that settlement.

MOTION #13: This house authorises the First Consul to declar war on any army entering our territory, if he deems it necessary for the defense of the Republic.
Proposer: Quintus (econ21)
Seconder: Anon (by influence)

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-01-2006, 16:04

I wish to congratulate senator Quintus on his sharp insight concerning motion#13. This will prevent accusations in the Senate and free the first consul in his actions. Still, I feel I say I expect a strong military presence on our borders. If a first consul leaves his borders wide open in order to encourage an act of war I will not hesitate to impeach him for 'warmongering'.

econ21

06-01-2006, 18:12

[SENATE SPEAKER]: The deadline for nomination of candidates for First Consul and for proposing motions has now passed. Voting will begin imminently. Debate may of course continue freely.

Dutch_guy

06-01-2006, 19:00

I wish to notify my support for my noble college Augustus Verginus, I deem his ideas best for our noble republic, I would however like to quote him on certain issues - which I would like him to expand on..

Yet, despite these successes, our future remains uncertain. ..... No plans for the conversion of any of the Sicilian provinces or any of the Greek cities has yet been layed.

Well I think now would be a good time to make your plans, and make them public. I would like to know wat happens to these newly conquered provinces, as they will eventually provide much of our trade revenue.

Despite all of this, some Senators yet push for war with Gaul. I ask you, brothers, war for what end? War with what armies? We have achieved much, yet we have much still to achieve. We must secure our new acquisitions, ensure that their men are organized so as to provide auxiliaries for our Legions, improve provincial infrastructure and economics, and raise further Legions to secure our borders and to prepare for future conquests.

Spoken like a true Roman ! We do not seek war, we merely have the means to fight an expansive defensive war*winks*.

Now, I know some Senators will undoubtedly say we can do both at once. Perhaps we can, but perhaps we will make ourselves vulnerable. Is five years such a long time to wait? ....... In such an event, options may become available to make expeditions to the Carthaginian island cities of Melite, Caralis, and Aleria. These are mere extensions of our existing conflict with the Punic nation.

Are costly expeditions like these necessary ? Do we even have the fleets to launch these attacks, and keep order in the newly conquered provinces. And who will govern these provinces ?

I don't believe in conquering far away Punic territory, if we aim to cripple Carthage, we must take their main cities, namely Carthage and Hadrumentum.
Why waste a costly and risky sail to these provinces of which we gain no immediate benefits. Surely we could better spend our ships and soldiers to wage a full scale war against Carthage itself, instead of taking their backwater provinces of Caralis and Aleria ?

Now I would like to compare your Manifesto to the ones of the other candidates....

Senator Tiberius Coruncanius proposes to build a navy, an idea I sympathize with, but do not read in your manifesto Verginius, which in my opinion is a shame.

Also, Verginius, I haven't read anything of your plans to secure our northern borders. If you did mention this, would you care to do this again, just to humor me...

As for my next query I ask you this, how will you revive our economy, which Lucius described as and I quote '' economy out of its sorry state ''.

Do you agree with this statement Senator, or do you not ?

My last question senator is this one: do you agree with senator [B]Pansa's comments concerning the Greeks, Illyrians and other neighboring ''sovereign'' countries, or do you not, and why did you answer the way you did?

:balloon2:

ShadesWolf

06-01-2006, 20:55

I wish to also notify my support for my noble college Augustus Verginus.

Fellow senators now is not a time to open up new theatres of war. We are already fighting on two fronts. If we declare war on the Gauls we will be surrounded by enemies. How can we survive if we are having the air choked out of us.

We should take this time to prepare to future conflicts. You all know they will come. Can you all honestly see the Greeks and Carthage allowing us to take the southern cities with such ease.

We need to defend these, we need a fleet and an enlarged army. Once we have these then YES we can take the war to our enemys. The Greeks are weak we should ally ourselves with their enemies.

The enemies of our enemies are our friends. I say leave Carthage to lick her wounds and once we have our army we should invade Greece and exterminate her.

The world should learn to fear us Romans, this can only be done by enslavement and exterminate. We cannot merely occupy cities and hope to earn the populations love. We must force our will on our enemies or die trying.

I wonder if my fellow senators have the stomach for such things, maybe I should have stood for office myself.

Glaucus

06-01-2006, 21:03

We must force our will on our enemies or die trying.

Illustrious Senator, were you fathered in far off Sarmatia by a barbarian king? Are you mad? The answer to one of these must be yes, for that is not a Roman way of thinking. We fight when we must, or against those who asked for it. The Gauls are barbarians, no excuse is needed for civilizing them. The Greeks are a modern people, why should we continue to fight them? Tell me, Senator, would you rather live next to a Gaulic barbarian or a Greek scholar?

Tricky Lady

06-01-2006, 21:24

Senators, I will keep it short: there is only one Roman who knows what's best for our Glorious Republic. Lucius Aemilius is our man. Seems that he is the only Roman with at least a tiny bit of intelligence who realises that we should kick the Gauls' hairy butts over the Alps! I have talked to my men, I have talked to my bodyguards, I know what our brave soldiers want. We do not care about "consolidating" territory. We do not care about economy. We, soldiers, want to show what we are capable of. Those stinky Gauls are soiling our fine Italian lands; they are ruining our future farmlands. We will not accept this. Let's kick 'em out. I say: vote Lucius Aemilius.
I, Titus Vatinius, have spoken.

TinCow

06-02-2006, 00:02

Well I think now would be a good time to make your plans, and make them public. I would like to know wat happens to these newly conquered provinces, as they will eventually provide much of our trade revenue.

It is my firm belief that a protracted war with Carthage is unavoidable, even if hostilities cease or are lukewarm for the next decade. I do not believe that we will ever be able to establish dominance in Africa without being able to raise armies directly from the Sicilian provinces. Thus, in Sicily my priorities will be to being training these new allies to provide us with Auxiliaries, in addition to any economic infrastructure that would benefit us. I see less of a need for Auxiliaries in the far southern Greek provinces, but they are valuable trading provinces and investments will be required in that area. Elsewhere, our northern provinces bordering Gaul must also be made ready to provide Auxiliaries in the event of an attack by the unwashed barbarians. Finally, our most prominent port cities must receive support so as to enable construction of larger, more powerful warships.

Are costly expeditions like these necessary ? Do we even have the fleets to launch these attacks, and keep order in the newly conquered provinces. And who will govern these provinces ?

No, I do not believe they are necessary. However, they are bases for Punic fleets and can act as valuable trading ports, further increasing our treasury. They are worth siezing if such a taking can be had without risk. No, we do not currently have the fleets to launch these attacks. For this reason I do not propose to attempt an expedition immediately. I would prefer to wait until sufficient naval forces are constructed to allow for the safe transportation and protection of up to a full Legion. The question of governance is beyond my means to answer effectively. If sufficient governors are available, they would be allocated to the provinces once annexed. However, I would expect that they would have to be supervised by the local garrison captain for some time before notable Romans step forward for the position. That said, it would be my intention to request that Senator Quintus personally lead any expedition to Caralis and Aleria. He could certainly provide at least short-term governance for those areas before going on to other areas.

I don't believe in conquering far away Punic territory, if we aim to cripple Carthage, we must take their main cities, namely Carthage and Hadrumentum.
Why waste a costly and risky sail to these provinces of which we gain no immediate benefits. Surely we could better spend our ships and soldiers to wage a full scale war against Carthage itself, instead of taking their backwater provinces of Caralis and Aleria ?

I agree, but I do not believe that we are yet strong enough to maintain a full scale invasion of Africa. Foremost I believe in building our strength for the coming conflict so that we will have the strength to land in force at the heart of their territory. My aspirations for the Punic islands are simply because I believe it is possible to sieze them with little cost to ourselves, both increasing our security from Punic fleets and adding to our Treasury. If events resolve in such a way as to make the siezure of these islands difficult or otherwise risky, I would not do so.

Senator Tiberius Coruncanius proposes to build a navy, an idea I sympathize with, but do not read in your manifesto Verginius, which in my opinion is a shame.

Also, Verginius, I haven't read anything of your plans to secure our northern borders. If you did mention this, would you care to do this again, just to humor me...

You are correct that I failed to address these issues in my manifesto. I confess that I did not anticipate the wide range of issues that this body would want information on and did not elaborate sufficiently at the time. As you can see though, it is my intention to build a naval force strong enough to keep our ports free of blockade and to enable the transportation of large armies to foriegn lands. I also wish to increase the quality of our port facilities to enable construction of better hull designs.

As for the Gallic border, I intend to send spies into Cisalpine Gaul to ensure that no barbarian army can catch us unawares. In addition, the northern Legion will be brought to full strength and it will be joined by a second Legion in a seperate fort. I would attempt to provide smaller outposts and further reinforcements if a Gallic buildup made them necessary. It would be my ultimate goal to develop a force strong enough to strike deep into their territory and secure the Alpine passes if future Consuls decided to do so.

As for my next query I ask you this, how will you revive our economy, which Lucius described as and I quote '' economy out of its sorry state''.

Do you agree with this statement Senator, or do you not?

I do not believe that our economy is in a sorry state, but I do believe that it needs to be improved. We have recently conquered a large area and we simply need time to develop it. It is simply a question of patience and investment. There is no risk in this, there is simple fact.

My last question senator is this one: do you agree with senator [B]Pansa's comments concerning the Greeks, Illyrians and other neighboring ''sovereign'' countries, or do you not, and why did you answer the way you did?

The Greeks have shown their evil intents towards us and the Illyrians are nothing more than semi-washed Gauls. I say let them fight each other. Let them weaken each other. We shall deal with them soon enough. However, it seems obvious that the Greeks will divert at least some of their attention to us if we maintain this conflict. Let us make peace, thus letting them get fully involved in a deep conflict with the Illyrians or possibly the Macedonians. In the end, we will envelop winner and loser alike... if the Senate so decides, of course.

I do hope I have sufficiently answered your questions for now. I shall respond to the statements of others who came after you in time, however I have business at home to attend to and these queries can be time consuming. I shall respond later in the evening to any other inquiries, you have my word.

econ21

06-02-2006, 00:06

[QUINTUS]: Senators, after some deliberation, I have decided to abstain from voting in the election for First Consul. I will also vote on motions in such a way as to maximise his freedom, but abstain from those covering contentious issues (such as a declaration of war on Gaul). My intention is to allow the rest of the Senate to determine the future of our Republic, free from any undue influence on my part. Perhaps at a later date, some emergency will arise that will lead me to lobby for some particular response. But for now, I am content to acquiesce to the will of the rest of the Senate.

In truth, I believe that our Republic is in an extremely strong and secure position. We are not impelled to act in one way or another. I believe the clearly differentiated manifestoes of the candidates are all viable and would benefit the Republic in one way or another. While my sword-arm might encourage me to support one rather than another, I do not wish to browbeat the Senate into a course of action that most of its active participants would oppose.

I also wish to reaffirm that I stand ready, eager to serve on the field of battle for whoever of our fine candidates is elected First Consul.

Ignoramus

06-02-2006, 02:07

We ought not to invade Africa. Tiberius Coruncanius has expressed that we invade Africa. I proposed a compromising motion, but this it seems, will not be passed. I urge the next consul not to invade Africa until we have secured eastern Iberia.

ShadesWolf

06-02-2006, 06:24

Illustrious Senator, my parentage is of no concern to you. All you need to know I was born a Roman, I will die a Roman

Tell me, Senator, would you rather live next to a Gaulic barbarian or a Greek scholar?

I would prefer to live next to a Roman, The hairy Gauls will come, we should wait for this opportunity rather than forcing the issue. When they come we will send them packing and take thier lands.

As for the Greek scholar, his days are over, we should make friends of his enemies, and when WE are ready, we should take his lands and exterminate him. Do not forget we did not ask for the war with the Greek, why should we beg for peace. If he wants peace, then let him come to us and we will give him our terms.....

Ignoramus

06-02-2006, 06:41

Be not not hasty senator, the Greeks have culture, though they are are the most dishonest and treacherous race, cultural cities like Athens ought to be spared bloodshed. However, those that are barbaric, by all means destroy.

Avicenna

06-02-2006, 09:59

All Greeks are barbaric, so us Romans should show our superiority, and spare the Greeks death. They can work for us as slaves, which would be far more productive than the destruction of their peoples. However, if merely occupied, they will be too arrogant for our militia to deal with, and so this is no longer an option.

Anyway, let us get back to events closer to home. The ideas put forward by Verginus seem quite solid and practical. The Italian states can be improved economically by now, while Sicily can be transformed into our troop recruiting base for the upcoming battles in this Punic War.

Ignoramus

06-02-2006, 12:23

Have you no admiration of art? The Greeks may not be greater than Romans, but their art is far better than anything we have. All Greeks hate Rome, and for that, they must and will be punished. But there is no need to destroy the artworks.

Dutch_guy

06-02-2006, 16:29

But there is no need to destroy the artworks.

Indeed, I have enough room where I live for those. No need to destroy them.

:balloon2:

Mount Suribachi

06-02-2006, 18:32

May I be the first to congratulate Senator Lucius Aemilius on his election to the Consulship. May the Gods smile upon you and bless you with a prosperous and successful reign.

Tricky Lady

06-02-2006, 18:50

Ay, senator Lucius Aemilius will be a worthy consul. And now I should go back to Sicily, my men need me!

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-02-2006, 19:22

Honored senators,

It is with humility I accept this great honour you bestow upon me. I will do my utmost to do justice to your confidence in me. I must say, with such distinguished senators running for office alongside me, I had not counted on winning this election.

Feelings have run high during the deliberations running up to this election, as is only proper, given the immense responsiblity the office of consul represents. I myself have lost my temper on the senate floor and for this I offer my apologies to this house. Let me be frank in saying that I have no animosity toward any of my fellow candidates. They are all great and respected men of our country and I have no doubt they will one day carry the burdens of this office themselves.

I see the most division in this house has been created by the question of going to war with Gaul. You all know me as a peaceful man, and it is not lightly I counseld you to take this step. If you remember, I was one of those who argued against war with powerful Carthage. Consul Quintus proved that that war could be won decisively in Sicily, to my great relief, but you understand I do not take this step lightly. I only desire Cispine Gaul because it is vital for our nation strategically and rest assured, I will not strike against them untill I am certain of victory. Now that this house has come to this decision, I beg you to stand behind me as one man. We must not let ourselves be divided by internal struggle !

As to who should be appointed historian of the republic, I myself would recommend senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow), who has already served us excellently as the resident Senate Librarian. I will not force him into to position, but I offer it to him out of respect for his achievements. I also ask other senators to volunteer for this duty should senator Augustus Verginus decline. We all know he is already overworked by this house.

Now, my fellow senators, I must immediately get to work, as there is much to be done.

Hail Rome !

econ21

06-02-2006, 19:37

[QUINTUS]: Let me belatedly congratulate First Consul Lucius Aemilius on his success. I am particularly pleased to note that the motions passed by the Senate are largely in accord with the First Consul's manifesto. Sir, the Senate does indeed stand behind you!

Mount Suribachi

06-02-2006, 21:17

Consul Lucius Aemilius, may I humbly request that you move me from Paestum back to Rome so that I may continue my studies at the Academy?

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-02-2006, 22:19

Senator Amulius Coruncanius,

I regret to inform you that you are currently stationed in Tarentum to help control the rebellious Greeks. This was necessary to allow me to move troops around. I have taken note of your wishes and will try to relocate you as soon as I have a replacement for your position. I will move you to Syracuse instead of Rome. I need a governor there and that city also has an academy.

Sincerely,
First consul Lucius Aemilus

Out of character :
Note that this is a bit of problem for me. As generals need to hang out in the field all year long in order to get promoted and there are few sons available under 20. The only ones expendable are the students. I don't like to move generals in and our of cities all the time, I feel that is too unrealistic and it is a hassle. Soon the reorganization will be complete and I will have enough garrison forces to move everyone freely and still get some taxes in our coffers.

Edit : Well, it seems getting you to Rome was easier than getting you to Syracuse, so there you are now.

flyd

06-02-2006, 22:50

Congratulations on your election, Consul Aemilius. I must admit that I am a little worried about your intention to get us into a two-front war on purpose. I hope you are cautious in conducting your planned war in Gaul. I wish you luck.

TinCow

06-02-2006, 23:37

It is with a heavy heart that I congratulate Senator Lucius Aemilius on his election. I will not pretend that I am now in favor of war with Gaul, but I will not shrink from duty. Rome has voiced its opinion and has cried out for war. As a loyal Roman, I consider it my duty to defend the Republic anywhere it is threatened and under any circumstances. If Senator Aemilius believes that I would be of any use at the front, I would serve readily and without question.

On another note, while I am humbled by his suggestion that I stand as Senate Historian, I fear that it may be too large a task to accomplish to my satisfaction. In such affairs, I tend to be rather... elaborate... and can find myself absorbed in all aspects of the endeavor for hours at a time. While this is enjoyable for me, my dear wife finds my distractions irksome and she can make life rather difficult for me when I neglect her interests. As such, I feel it is in my own best interests (and longevity) to decline this offer.

Ignoramus

06-02-2006, 23:48

I willing to stand as the Senate historian, should the republic require my services.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-03-2006, 00:58

Members of the senate,
One year of my consulship has passed, and I bring you my preliminary report (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1158195&postcount=6) while I await the outcome of the battle of senator Publius Laevinius who is raiding Melite.

econ21

06-03-2006, 01:16

[QUINTUS]: First Consul Aemilius, we are honoured to receive such an early report of your progress. I am particularly grateful that you have been able to give Legate Laevinus a taste of battle, as I know my inability to satisfy him in that regard was a source of much frustration to him. I wish him every good fortune in his expedition.

I would like to clarify one point in your report, however, where you speak of setting taxes high where possible. Can I confirm that the taxes are not so high that they prevent any population growth?

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-03-2006, 16:57

Senators,

The question of our attacking Gaul is moot, as they have invaded our territory, marching on Arminium and I have ordered offensive action to be taken in accordance with senate motion #13 of their second session. Thus we are now at war with Gaul !
I have prepared an emergency report (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1158671&postcount=7) which describes the current situation and my actions thus far. I hope I can count on your full support now our nation faces another enemy.

Hail Rome !

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-03-2006, 17:00

I see I've forgotten to answer our consul Quintus. The city growth is not decreasing anywhere but Messana, which cannot be helped unfortunately. I have instructed all our cities that this administration has a 'Financial build policy'.

Mount Suribachi

06-03-2006, 17:18

Consul Lucius Amelius, I thank you for moving me to the academy. I shall be making offerings to the Gods for victory over those Barbarians who would dare to threaten Rome!

econ21

06-03-2006, 17:59

[QUINTUS]: First Consul Aemilius, war with Gaul was inevitable. We are fortunate to have elected a man who recognised that and so is now in a position to better respond to the present crisis.

First Consul, the Senate stands behind you. All Roma holds her breath and awaits news of our fortunes.

Dutch_guy

06-03-2006, 18:07

Consul,

I wish you good luck with your comming battles against the barbarians !

I'm sure you're the right man for the job, and as we have the best soldiers in the known world, I daresay it will all be over soon !

On a side note, I'd glady fight beside my fellow Romans against the barbarians, it would be good for my battle field experience I'd say.

:balloon2:

Braden

06-03-2006, 23:17

First Consul,

Firstly congratulations on your election, tis a sore shame that it is into a state of war that you have been elected.

I can assure you though that the Senate is wholely behind you and I ask that you pursue the Gauls with utmost venom once you have repelled them from Arminium.

Strike hard once you have defeated their great horde before they can reorganise.

Perhaps you would deem it that you may require my assistance in scouting ahead of your armies? I am currently seeking "malcontents" at Lilybaeum.

Your servant and Senator,

Decius Curtius

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-04-2006, 00:33

Your kind words and your helpful intentions are appreciated. The unrest is now under control in Lilybaeum and you are moving towards Cispine Gaul, where your collegae Quintis Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief) is already providing me with valuable inside intelligence while I lay siege to Patavium.

GeneralHankerchief

06-04-2006, 03:26

Senators, if I may offer my views on the Gallic armies.

They seem numerous, yes, but that is the only thing they have going for them. They can easily buckle when faced with a proper legion. However, words of caution: The farther away from Roma, the fiercer they become. If we are to ultimately expand into the rest of the Gallic territories, I would bring heavy forces. They know their lands well, and you can expect an ambush.

Consul Aemilius, I believe I never congratulated your victory over the other Senators. For that, you have my apologies and my belated congratulations. Secondly, I have given you the gates of Patavium. If you do not find this sufficient, I suggest that you hurry up and finish the siege engines, for I cannot also make holes in the wall.

A grim, sober mood has set into the residents of Patavium. This worries me, because it is much easier to fool a drunken Gaul than a sober, suspicious one. I beg of you Consul, take this settlement poste-haste.

Avicenna

06-04-2006, 09:03

I apologise for my inactiveness during the crucial time of voting, my colleagues, as my tutor at the academy has forced me to work until late hours so that I may learn much more before I am to come of age.

I would like to congratulate senator Aemilius for his appointment to first consul, and may the gods be with him.

Mount Suribachi

06-04-2006, 12:22

Conscript Fathers, a son!! I have a son!!

This is a joyous event, tempered only slightly by the fact that I have not been on the battlefield as my father and Consul Aemelius routed the trouser-wearing barbarians!

Excuse me Conscript Fathers, I have more offerings to give to the gods who have blessed me so mightily.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-04-2006, 15:58

Honoured senators,

I have prepared my intermediate report (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1159002&postcount=8) for your review. I would like to ask the senate speaker to open this meeting. My view of our current situation is included in the report. I would like to start this meeting by proposing two motions.

MOTION #1 : We should improve our strategic postion by also capturing Massila, as it is more easily defended than Jenuensis. This in addition to the conquest of Cispine Gaul and the Cartheginian islands.
I have the active support of legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) for this motion.

The following motion has already been retracted !
MOTION #2 : We should launch an expedition to capture the Cartheginian colonies in Spain, when the acting consul judges our resources adequate to outfit such an expedition.

I hope the senators are satisfied with my leadership thus far.

Your humble servant,
Legate Lucius Aemilius (acting first consul).

Edit : savegame 273-sum-jen.zip (the name is incorrect as it is autumn 273 BC)

Craterus

06-04-2006, 16:16

Consul Aemilius, it appears my support in you was well-placed. I offer my congratulations on your triumphant conquest of Cispine Gaul.

I also congratulate Amulius Coruncanius on his newborn infant.

It seems Rome has much to celebrate today! :ave:

TinCow

06-04-2006, 17:09

Consul Aemilius has managed the armies of the Republic admirably, but is there no end to his greed? Need I remind the Consul of his own words when he said that after Cisalpine Gaul was conquered:

"I will cease expansion, as we will be overstretching ourselves already by then. . . I will also endeavour to make peace with the Gauls after my strategic objectives have been reached, but I will not resume trade with them as this has been forbidden by this house."

Yet despite his campaign "promises" he now proposes to take all of the Iberian coast! As he has reported, our seasonal income has been halved during only the first half of his term, and our fleets and Legions are nowhere near strong enough to make an expedition to Iberia without making our home territories vulnerable to attack. Yet the Consul proposes to continue strengthening our forces at the expense of economic investment to add even more under-developed provinces to our domain. Not only is he ignoring his own campaign promises, he will bankrupt us!

Glory on the battlefield does not make a man immune from responsible governance. I warn Consul Aemilius that if he does not abide by his own words, if he does halt his conquests where he said he would, if he does not concentrate on developing our now severely over-extended territory as he also said he would, then there will be consequences.

econ21

06-04-2006, 17:13

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Now that we have received the First Consul's mid-term report, I declare the interim session of the Senate open. The deadline for proposing motions is 6pm UK time Tuesday. Voting will then be open for one day, closing 6pm UK time Wednesday.

I remind Senators that for a motion to be put to a vote, there must be TWO named seconders.

TinCow

06-04-2006, 17:20

Motion 3: The Consul must refrain from expansion beyond the Alps, with the exception of Massilia which may be taken if Motion 1 passes. The Consul must devote the remainder of his term to strengthening our economic and military infrastructure. This motion does not limit the taking of Corsica and Sardinia.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-04-2006, 17:27

I can see how my report might lead tribune Augustus Verginius (TinCow) to draw these conslusions. I was attempting to show the senate the various possibilities that are now open to us in more detail. However, the crital lines in my report are :

As I limited myself to the amount of conquest I will go no further without senate approval...I would advise a defensive strategy and focus on our finances instead.

However, in order not to give the appearance of defying the will of the senate, I will withdraw motion #2. However, legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) was so persuasive in his arguments to me, I will let motion #1 stand. I invite the legate to explain his arguments in detail to the senate, as his words were the ones that persuaded me. I will also second motion #3. I might also give note to the possibility that Gaul may agree to a ceasefire once Cispine Gaul has been conquered. As we need every denarii we can get I will propose a new motion #2 :

Motion #2 : If the Gauls agree to a ceasefire after Cispine Gaul has been conquered, we will attempt to resume trade with them.

TinCow

06-04-2006, 17:31

I see I misunderstood the Consul's intentions and for that I humbly apologize. I too feel that the advantages of Massilia are plain to see to all eyes and I believe that this particular conquest will make our territory more secure, rather than more exposed. It was for this reason that I included the Motion 1 exception in my proposal and unless convincing argument is otherwise put forward, it is my intention to vote in favor of it as well.

GeneralHankerchief

06-04-2006, 17:37

I think if we leave Jenuensis in Gallic hands it will come back to bite us. Once we take both cities the Gauls will be hurt, and we will have an extremely defendable border. Likewise with the Carthaginians when we take Corsica and Sardinia.

At this point, knowing that we are safe from all sides I advise that we conquer no further and focus on economic development. Hence, I propose the following.

Motion 4: Once the following places are taken: Jenuensis, Masilla, Corsica, and Sardinia, the Consul is prohibited from expanding any further unless given permission by the Senate.

I will Second Motion 1, since I do not care in what order these settlements are taken, so long as they are taken.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-04-2006, 17:46

Senator Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief),

Your proposed motion 4 overlaps with earlier motions and proposed motions. The senate has already voted to take Cispine Gaul (of which we still need to conquer Jenuensis and Mediolanium) and proposed motion 1 covers the conquest of Masilla. The senate has also already voted to take Corsica and Sardinia. Therefore I humbly request you to retract your motion.

GeneralHankerchief

06-04-2006, 19:30

Consul Aemilius,

By the wording of Motion 1 it seemed to me that you would leave Jenuensis in Gallic hands. I apologize if it was misread. If you could amend it to state the Jenuensis would be captured in due time, I shall retract my motion. :bow:

shifty157

06-04-2006, 20:05

Since it seems that the majority of the senators can see plainly the extraordinary defensive benefits of taking the town of Masilia I will not waste your time speaking on matters you already know. If any senators remain skeptical or do not understand then I will gladly show to them exactly why it would be tremendously in our benefit to take Masilia.

I agree however that expansion must cease once these few objectives are taken. It is again time to consolidate our new holdings and prepare to sally forth once again when we find our financial situation stronger.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-04-2006, 20:26

GeneralHankerchief

06-04-2006, 21:54

Motion 4 is retracted.

Motion 3 is also seconded.

econ21

06-04-2006, 22:49

[QUINTUS]: I second the revised motion 2 (trade with Gaul), however, it requires an additional seconder. Indeed, if we seek a ceasefire with Gaul, offering trade rights may be a useful inducement for them to accept.

In addition, Senators, it is clear that the seizure of Cisalpine Gaul will leave us at a crossroads in terms of further expansion. The next First Consul will have to decide where our immediate ambitions should lie, if he is not content to merely rest on his laurels. Do we go west, to Spain? East to Greece? Or south to Carthage? To this end, I propose:

Motion #4: The First Consul will send out three spies to assess enemy defences in the following regions:
(1) Carthaginian settlements in Spain (and Gaulish settlements en route to there)
(2) Greek and Macedonian defences in their homelands (and Illyrian settlements en rout there)
(3) Carthaginian holdings in Africa.

Only when we have good intelligence on the above areas will the Senate be able to make an informed assessment of its next move.

Do I have two seconders for this motion?

TinCow

06-04-2006, 22:57

I second Motion 4 though I must say that I vehemently oppose Motion 2. Have you all forgotten so easily the horrors that the Gauls have inflicted upon us in the past? What has changed since our previous declaration to deny trade with those unwashed devils? Have our successes against them made them less smelly? Do they now wear togas? I am confused Senators, are we so concerned with money that we will whore the Republic out to animals?

GeneralHankerchief

06-04-2006, 23:03

Motion 4 is also seconded. If I did not I could hardly call myself a spy.

As for Motion 2, I second it only because I wish to hear further debate on it. I must admit I am on the fence- surely the Gauls will realize the folly of trying to attack our well-defended northern settlements. At the same time, it means they could bide their time and make a coordinated assault on multiple settlements.

I do not think we should cease talking about Motion 2 just yet.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-04-2006, 23:03

I'll send motion 4, but it will mean great risk to one of our ships to attempt the crossing to Afrika. It will need to be a bold man to go on this venture. Stll, the intelligence would be worth it. I do not share the harsh feelings of Senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow) on the issue of the Gauls. I was impressed by their courage on the field of battle. One day, when they are properly submitted, they might provide valuable auxilia forces for our legions. I would also like to draw attention to the fact that Sextius Antio (Ignoramus) has volunteered for the position of Senate Historian. What exactly is his function ? Perhaps the senator himself has some ideas to bring forward on this issue,

TinCow

06-05-2006, 00:33

I do not share the harsh feelings of Senator Augustus Verginus (TinCow) on the issue of the Gauls. I was impressed by their courage on the field of battle. One day, when they are properly submitted, they might provide valuable auxilia forces for our legions.

Courage on the field of battle? Did the display of Roman courage at Allia restrain Brennus from burning Rome and slaughtering thousands of innocents? Yes, they may well make valuable auxilia if properly trained, as one would tame a wolf. Yet does the taming of one wolf make the wild ones any less dangerous? There is only one proper trade to be made with Gauls: Roman steel for barbarian blood. "Vae victis" indeed.

Ignoramus

06-05-2006, 02:26

I duly propose Motion #5.

MOTION #5: Expansion shall cease indefinitely after taking Cisalpine Gaul and Massilia, until the Senate consents to futher conquests.

Do I have any seconders for this motion?

GeneralHankerchief

06-05-2006, 02:58

Sounds a bit like deja vu (I have no idea where that word comes from, it sounds somewhat Gallic/Latin) to me, Senator Antio. It seems very much like my retracted Motion 4.

Do you wish to propose that motion for yourself?

Ignoramus

06-05-2006, 03:18

Yes, I did not see your earlier motion, but I think it is necessary to place limit's on the consul's power.

econ21

06-05-2006, 07:33

[QUINTUS]: I must oppose Senator Antio's proposed motion (I believe it should be numbered motion #5). The Senate's authority is required for declarations of war. But where we are already at war, it seems folly to tie the First Consul's ability to fight that war and ability to take it to our enemies. If we speak only of the second half of this First Consul's term, the motion may not be too objectionable. The present First Consul has already indicated no wish for further expansion.

But the motion does not speak only of this First Consul but seeks to tie down further First Consuls. These seems a step too far.

Senators, we have three powerful enemies. We must decide - do we wish to make peace with them? to conquer them? or to engage in endless wars of attrition? So far, I am content to leave Carthage and Greece be. The separation of them from us by the sea has prevented renewable of active hostilities. Were they to land on our soil again, however, I would review that opinion and consider a decisive strike on their home land. But for now, and while our fleet cannot rival theirs, I am content to wait.

Gaul is another proposition, however. Quite frankly, I do not see the wisdom of halting at Massila in the medium term. If they come to terms, it may be acceptable. But if not, the Gauls will throw army after army at us. Then it will be a foolish Senate that stands content to let the Gauls raise more men, season after season, to kill ours.

flyd

06-05-2006, 07:40

Consul Aemilius, I am quite distrubed to find out that you have ordered my two priests to follow you instead. Priests are guided by the gods; had you been deemed worthy by the gods, I'm sure some priests would have offered their services to you. By giving orders to those priests, I think you have done something reserved for the gods, and in the process far exceeded your authority. My chirurgeon you may keep, but give me back my priests!

Avicenna

06-05-2006, 08:13

Greetings, senators! :ave:

I am pleased to note that in my time during the academy, you have come to your senses and decided to halt expansion and consolidate.

I would like to second the motion proposed by senator Antio, as it will allow us time to build up so that we may increase our armies to repel any threat to our borders.

Mtion #6: I would also like to propose an alliance with the Selucids, who may aid us against the arrogant Greeks in Ionia. An alliance with the most powerful of the Diadochi will surely cause any potential enemies to shake in fear, as the Selucids can crush any empire in the Aegan when combined with our mighty Roman arms.

Ignoramus

06-05-2006, 08:46

I second Motion #6.

Braden

06-05-2006, 10:08

I also second Motion #6.

As for the current discussions. Whilst I do not think we should trek further North into Gaul heartlands, this is not because of any “love” or “respect” for the Gallic peoples. It is merely a practical consideration.

Their lands stretch far North to the seas and will expand our Republics borders un-necessarily and for little gain. The lands are no very profitable and I believe the other barbarians peoples beyond the Alps will cause us much military and financial problems should we venture further at this time.

I firmly believe that now is the time to consider the greater enemy of Carthage again. I agree with the First Consuls tactical reasoning and his need to capture all of Cisalpine Gaul and Massilia but also we must not limit him unduly.

I remind the Senate that we have a standing Motion from the previous Senate Session regarding defending against invaders into our Republic, perhaps a rewording of Motion #5 is in order?

If Motion #5 contained the words “within this current Consuls leadership” – thus those of the Senate who wish to limit this current First Consuls expansion against the Gauls or even the Iberians will do so but hence will not limit the Consular incumbents following him.

The Motion from our previous session ensures that should the Gauls attempt an incursion into Cisapline Gaul or against Massilia, he is free to pursue them with all vigour and ensure they do not try such a folly again.

It is my assumption that previous Motions carry on, if they are not “completed”.

Now to Carthage. The current Consuls plans are sound and I support his plans to strike at the remaining islands held by them, however, I also agree with his report that our navy is by now means strong enough to support longer range liberation.

Hence, I feel that the Carthage holdings in Iberia AND Afrika are still beyond the Republics reach at this time. We must continue to build our infrastructure and move to a more advanced and larger navy otherwise any such ventures will be doomed. We must consider the supply issues involved, the sea distances are large to Iberia and whilst they are short to Afrika the enemies navy is too strong for us to ensure resupply of any Cohort.

I am willing to be part of the fact finding missions as proposed in Motion #4, and I am also willing to set forth to any of those missions should the Motion be passed. Yes, I am willing to pit my linguistic and subterfuge skills even in Afrika.

I am confused why the Illyrians refuse an alliance with us? We have common enemies and no plans on their lands….this I find odd and unsettling. The job I am in leads me to suspect much, with this I can only believe they plan evil against our Republic.

econ21

06-05-2006, 10:31

[QUINTUS]: Senators, I must caution against making any alliances with a faction that we are destined to destroy. Both Spain and Seleucia fall into that category. Such alliances are doomed to be broken and if we are the transgressors, our standing among nations will be much reduced.

I am particularly concerned about Seleucia - it is a great power and it is conceivable that it may come close to dominating the region (obtaining 50 provinces). If such a risk appeared real and imminent, we would be compelled to launch a spoiling expedition to prevent it, ruining our good name. I would prefer that we retained our freedom of maneouvre.

Indeed, I wonder if we need rivals as allies at all. Perhaps the only alliances we need are those such as we have made with the Italian states and now with Cisalpine Gaul, whereby our allies accept our leadership and predominance.

Avicenna

06-05-2006, 11:45

My esteemed colleague Quintus, the Selucids are in no position to gain world domination as of now! Look at their borders: the rich Ptolemaics to their south are not on amicable terms with them, and when the Selucids turn their eyes on the Ptolemies, there is no doubt that their current "allies", the Bactrians, Armenians, Parthians and Pontics, will go to war with them, each with a desire to carve out a great empire of their own. Our concern is their assistance against the Greeks. If they help us, the Macedonians will no doubt turn on them. If they do not help, we have every excuse to attack them, as they will not have fulfilled their treaty obligations.

Anyhow, my friends, by the time Rome is strong enough to even consider launching an attack on the Selucids, we will be strong enough to do whatever we wish, regardless of our neighbours.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-05-2006, 12:23

The following motions proposals are active :

Motion #1 : We should improve our strategic postion by also capturing Massila, as it is more easily defended than Jenuensis. This in addition to the conquest of Cispine Gaul and the Cartheginian islands.
Proposed by Lucius Aemilius (DDW)
Seconders : Publius Laevinus (Shifty157), Augustus Verginus (TinCow), Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief)

Motion #2 : If the Gauls agree to a ceasefire after Cispine Gaul has been conquered, we will attempt to resume trade with them.
Proposed by Lucius Aemilius (DDW)
Seconders : Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief)

Motion #3: The Consul must refrain from expansion beyond the Alps, with the exception of Massilia which may be taken if Motion 1 passes. The Consul must devote the remainder of his term to strengthening our economic and military infrastructure. This motion does not limit the taking of Corsica and Sardinia
Proposed by Augustus Verginus (TinCow)
Seconders : Lucius Aemilius (DDW), Publius Laevinus (Shifty157), Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief)

Motion #4: The First Consul will send out three spies to assess enemy defences in the following regions:
(1) Carthaginian settlements in Spain (and Gaulish settlements en route to there)
(2) Greek and Macedonian defences in their homelands (and Illyrian settlements en rout there)
(3) Carthaginian holdings in Africa.
Proposed by Quintus (econ21)
Seconders : Augustus Verginus (TinCow), Quintus Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief), Lucius Aemilius (DDW)

Motion #5: Expansion shall cease indefinitely after taking Cisalpine Gaul and Massilia, until the Senate consents to futher conquests.
Proposed by Sextus Antio (Ignoramus)
Seconders : Decius Laevinus (Tiberius)

Motion #6: I would also like to propose an alliance with the Selucids, who may aid us against the arrogant Greeks in Ionia. An alliance with the most powerful of the Diadochi will surely cause any potential enemies to shake in fear, as the Selucids can crush any empire in the Aegan when combined with our mighty Roman arms.
Proposed by Decius Laevinus (Tiberius)
Seconders : Sextus Antio (Ignoramus), Decius Curtius (Braden)

Motion #2 and Motion #5 need one more seconder to be accepted for voting. The other proposed motions are accepted for voting. Senator Decius Curtius (Braden) has proposed a rephrasing of Motion #5. He has also bravely volunteered for the very risky mission of assessing enemy defenses in Carthage in Africa.

On the matter of alliances I will propose the following motion :

Motion #7 : We will strive to make alliances with all the nations not on our blacklist, i.e. not Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul or Numidia unless explicitly specified in an a motion by the senate.

Out of character :
This will greatly simplify the work of the first consul and speed up his work. I must say I find it strange, and probably an oversight, that Illirya is not mentioned in the blacklist. I suggest we just add it without further ado.

Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude) is very perceptive in noticing that I have been swapping ancilliaries. I needed them for the assault on Lugotorix, but stupidily forgot the Chirurgeon, which I borrowed from you later. I've rechecked the rules considering ancilliaries in post #2 of the out of character thread, and it seems priests are not to be freely swapped. I think this is a mistake on our part, and a needless complication for the first consul and I will start a discussion about this in the out of charcter thread, but nonetheless I will endeavour to restore your priests to you when I can, which will be soon. Please, let us have not more discussion of this in the in character thread.

econ21

06-05-2006, 12:31

[QUINTUS]: I second motion #7. Do we have another seconder?

Ignoramus

06-05-2006, 12:34

I object, Senator Decivs Laevinivs has seconded Motion #5. It shoulc be ammended accordingly.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-05-2006, 12:39

You are correct. It would be handy if everyone Bolded their motion statements for easier reference.

Braden

06-05-2006, 12:39

Consul,

It is certainly good to have a clarification of the proceedings so far. It is heartening that you can spare the time from matters of state to perform such a task, perhaps this should be one task for the Senate Scribe?

It is obviously up to Senator Sextus Antio to reword his proposed Motion.

Bravery. It is my job to better server the Republic, there are but two active spies in the Republic's employ at this time....that includes myself. I trust that it does not sound ill of me when I say that my experience is greater than that of Senator Quintis Classicianus, and I would not entrust the most difficult of missions to one of my newly trained agents.

Hence, the most logical selection for that mission is myself. However, that is the choice of the First Consul ultimately.

It is, after all, only the injuries received in the service of the Republican armies that lead me to my current career, otherwise I would be fighting alongside our brave legionaries.....I am sure their risk is greater than any that I may take.

(OOC: Besides, I stand to potentially get a Retinue from such a trip :idea2: )

Dutch_guy

06-05-2006, 12:41

[QUINTUS]: I second motion #7. Do we have another seconder?

I second the motion also.

Further more I wish to congratulate our Consul on his recent victories against the barbarians !

A 10 : 1 ration surely is an achievement, and I'm sure i speak for the entire senate when I say we hope you continue your future work in the same fashion!

The following i quote from our consuls report:

However, the legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) has advised me that it would be prudent to conquer Massila, a rebel-held town just west of Cispine Gaul over the Alps. It is very easily defended as the only access to it from Gaul is by crossing a bridge. I am inclined to agree with his reasoning. We might go further and try to extend our influence untill we can attack the Cartheginian colonies in Spain.

I must agree with my father, Publius. Massila is nearby and would make the entrance into northern gaul a bit easier to defend. I also forsee no problems with takling the city itself, considering the state of our military.

I have also heard reasoning that we are quite able to strike at Afrika itself now, but I worry about our lack of a strong fleet. I would advise against this, because even if we are succesfull in this venture, we cannot support it financially.

I find that we should not attack the mighty Carthaginians in Afrika untill we can throw our full power at them, meaning we should build up our fleet first. Why take any un necessary risks I wonder ?

We could also strike at Greece, as it has only one ally and the kingdom of Macedon is in serious trouble now as it is fighting two enemies at the same time and they can thus be ruled out. I have no strong feelings either way, but instead I would advise a defensive strategy and focus on our finances instead. I will of course carry out the will of the senate, whatever it decides.

No, focus on Carthage and Gaul first, we don't want to fight a three front war, a war which will be a drain on our modest war chest. And maybe the Illyrians 'll even declare war on us...thus invading northern Italia.
The Greeks will fall, but let's concentrate on our current frontiers first shall we ?

Ignoramus

06-05-2006, 13:02

I shall ammend Motion #5:

It now reads:

Motion #5: Expansion shall cease for the remainder of this consuls reign.

And I propose Motion #8: Expansion shall cease for the next consul's reign.

Thus, senators can vote on one or the other, or both.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-05-2006, 13:04

Consul,

It is certainly good to have a clarification of the proceedings so far. It is heartening that you can spare the time from matters of state to perform such a task, perhaps this should be one task for the Senate Scribe?

Yes, you are of course correct. However, I failed to notice that the Senate Scribe had already preempted me and I compiled the list for my own convenience. My apologies for overstepping my authority here.
I do think that a regular posted summary, say once a day, of the proposed motions will stir up debate. I get the impression from past debate that most of our members neglect to read up on the summary posted in post#1 of this thread.

Braden

06-05-2006, 13:10

First Consul,

I don't believe there is any problem with your extra effort here, indeed it speaks well of you.....is foreshame that you are committed to NOT run for Consul again for another 10 years.

Motion #5 - I second this motion in its revised format as proposed.

shifty157

06-05-2006, 17:23

It seems that the senate is in general agreement on most of these motions. I find this to be very good news that we all can think clearly.

Mount Suribachi

06-05-2006, 21:56

Conscript Fathers, it seems that this house is finally tiring of conquest - most excellent! I agree that after we have secured Cisalpine Gaul we should stop our expansion, with the Alps providing a natural barrier protecting Italia from the barbarians to the North. Other than securing Massila, any further expansion northwards would merely secure us lands of little value in an exposed position.

Motion #7 : We will strive to make alliances with all the nations not on our blacklist, i.e. not Carthage, Iberia, Greece, Macedon, Thrace, Seleucia, Egypt, Pontus, Gaul or Numidia unless explicitly specified in an a motion by the senate

Blacklist? What is this blacklist you speak of? I have heard no discussion of blacklisted nations in this house! What have the Iberians done to us to deserve blacklisting? Macedon, Thrace and the Seleucids? The Ptolemites, Pontus and Numidia? This is an outrage conscript fathers! You talk of future wars against nations so far away that most of us know them only by their exotic names!

Here we are at war with 3 nations, surrounded on all sides by enemies, and you refuse to countenance alliances with nations on the spurious basis that we are destined to come into conflict with them in the future! This is madness!

Conscript Fathers, we should seek alliances with anyone who can help us in the 3 wars that you have so quickly and readily plunged us into.

Wishazu

06-06-2006, 01:22

Fellow Senators, I too support an end to war with the Gauls, but only after securing our frontier on the Alps with strong garrisons and watchtowers to alert us of any treacherous barbarian incursions. Once this has been achieved I will attempt, at the pleasure of our glorius Consul to negotiate a peace between us so that we may increase our balance through trade with the barbaric northeners. This too may have the added bonus of civilizing them and attracting them to our way of life, making it all the more easier for us to absorb them into our sphere of influence in the future.

I hereby second Motion # 2

I hear too much talk of continuing war with the great empire of Carthage, and also of attacking Africa. Anyone who believes war with these people is in our best interests is a fool, their fleets are powerfull and their control of the sea in this region is absolute.

Let us now secure our homeland and build up our economy before any further expansion is decided upon.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-06-2006, 09:10

As our new diplomat Oppius Vintruvius (Wishazu) has been away for Rome for quite some time, news may not have reached him that we are still at war with Carthage and the Greek Cities.
If the motion for the taking of Massilia is passed, I will wait with peace offers untill that city is captured. Otherwise we might get into the nasty position of just having brokered a peace deal and then Gaul captures Massilia just before we get there.

Ignoramus

06-06-2006, 10:17

Braden

06-06-2006, 11:24

Senators,

The First Consul is committed to seizing the Mediterranean Islands currently held by Carthage and I support him in this wholly. They are strategically important for military access to Afrika and Iberia AND a potentially, very large, source of trade income due to their central locations.

These actions weaken Carthage, our greatest enemy at this time, and strengthens the Republic financially through trade and bases of control.

Both myself and the First Consul agree that now is not the time to enter Afrika and embark upon any actions in Carthage’s “back yard”, but he has proposed a fact finding mission……….information is power and any accurate information we can provide about Carthage’s strength is much needed by us now and in the near future so we may best defend the Republic from any aggression by Carthage.

I am unsure but thus far we have only encountered Gauls to our North. Do we have any information about what Barbarian tribes live beyond the Alps and what financial gains could be made by trade with them? I can only feel that peace with Gaul will be very difficult to obtain in the near future, they are proud and foolish and will see their defeats against us more like red rag to an enraged bull rather than the lesson in humility they surely were. With that in mind perhaps a diplomat should be sent further North so seek trade from the non-Gallic tribes? What about those nations in the Carpathians or around the Black Sea? There are many nations, Barbarian or Civilised, that we have yet to encounter.

I am also troubled by the mention of a “Black List”, initially I believed I had missed something from a previous Session of the Senate but it appears I have not…..I say this “Black List” must be torn asunder! We will make enemies, that is sure as we have enemies now. Let us not consider other nations as enemies until they force it upon us and try to make trade partners and allies whilst we can……

……..a farmer reaps whilst the sun shines and tills the ground whilst it does not.

Wishazu

06-06-2006, 11:35

It is true Consul Lucius Aemilius that I have been away from our beloved home city for some time, mostly dealing with stubborn, treacherous Greeks, these people supposedly renowned for forward thinking seem totally unable to grasp the futility of continued war with us. However I was simply stating that I support our expansion north to the Alps, but no further for now, also that continous war with Carthage is not advisable. I am fully aware that we are currently at war with these child killers and I wish to congratulate our glorius Consuls on the progress of the war. However, I feel that expanding the scope of the conflict to the Carthaginian homeland is not in our best interests.

Senator Decius Curtius proposes a fact finding mission into the wild north to explore the situation amongst the many, disparate barbarian tribes. As mush as it sickens me to spend so much time with these foul, flea ridden Gauls, I will go once my work in Massilia is done, If it is the will of the senate.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-06-2006, 11:54

[Out of character]
I regret proposing the 'blacklist' motion in this thread, and will explain my reasons in more detail and then I propose to move further discussion on this topic to the 'out of character thread'.

We will get offers of alliance from many of our surrounding nations. For each of these the game would have to stopped and the senate would have to be consulted whether to accept or not. I am in favour of this, but practically this is difficult. Sometimes I get three alliance offers in a single turn. The game would have to be stopped, a vote taken, and resumed for each of these offers. This would delay progress immensely. The nations NOT on the 'blacklist' (which should include Illyria) are factions we do not intend to conquer ever. So an alliance with them would be in our best interest. It is best to decide these things in advance, so the first consul can just play on and inform the senate of the new alliance.

Therefore I propose we decide each first consul election what diplomatic relations we wish with all the factions. Let us do this once, and then we need only propose motion for changes in our diplomatic relations from then on.

Your thoughts would be appreciated (in the 'out of character thread')

TinCow

06-06-2006, 11:57

Surely the period for debate of these motions has passed. Senate Scribe, is it time for a vote, to allow the Consul to continue on with his term?

econ21

06-06-2006, 12:07

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Senator Verginius, the First Consul delivered his report at around 4pm UK time Sunday; by convention, we have two days for debate. Voting will start this evening 6pm and last for 24 hours.

When it comes to drawing up the ballot papers, I will have the scribes redraft the motion about alliances to remove reference to a "blacklist". Instead it will merely list by name those faraway countries that we are unlikely ever to have to subdue.

TinCow

06-07-2006, 04:08

It is with great disappointment that I note the heavy approval of Motion 2. Perhaps this body only remembers the gold the Republic paid to Brennus. Maybe your votes would be different if you were reminded of the other things which the Gauls took from Rome. Surely I am not the only one who heard his grandfather tell tales of the horrors that the barbarians inflicted upon this fair city.

For shame Senators. For shame.

http://smarties.goodleaf.net/personal/italy/Jamin_leBrenn-large.jpg

Dutch_guy

06-07-2006, 11:40

TinCow

06-07-2006, 12:05

The Gauls will pay, and already have at the hands of our current Consul.

We all remember the tales our grandfathers told us Verginius, and eventually we will march to the North. Now is just not the time. Don't you see that strengthening our economy and infrastructure now, will help us defeat the Gauls later, surely you do !

Certainly I do and I am not advocating a further advance on the Gauls; I was I who proposed Motion 3, restraining further conquests of those pitiful territories. What good would siezing their hovels do for Rome? I would even be in favor of a ceasefire with the beasts, if they can be reasoned with. However, letting them profit by Roman trade goes simply too far for me. Our merchants can ply our wares nearly anywhere for thousands of miles, why do we need to encourage them to go to Gaul?

Ah, but it is a lost cause, so I shall cease my ravings... for now.

Mount Suribachi

06-07-2006, 12:24

Senator Verginius, perhaps Roman merchants in gaulish towns may encourage some form of civilisation of those Barbarians. I do not expect them to all stop wearing trousers of course, but who knows, we may encourage some of them to speak Greek as they deal with our merchants and businessmen. Furthermore, the benefits of trade will be plain for them to see. Whilst they trade with Rome they prosper, but as they have just learnt, if they decide to mess with us they will suffer!

Rome wasn't built in a day Conscript Fathers, neither will taming those hairy, unwashed beasts to our north be a quick and easy job. But perhaps, over time, they might approach some kind of culture that imitates our own (in a crude manner, of course).

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-07-2006, 12:29

However, letting them profit by Roman trade goes simply too far for me. Our merchants can ply our wares nearly anywhere for thousands of miles, why do we need to encourage them to go to Gaul?

Senator Verginius,
The reason I proposed this motion is that we will soon have a new border with settlements bordering on Gaul, including landbased settlements with no access to ports to ply their trade to other nations. Our merchants will profit by sharing in the Gaul trade, where otherwise they would have to trade amongst themselves with much less revenue. I don't like it that a potential future enemy will also profit from trade with us, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. I have not finished punishing the Gauls by a long shot yet and you yourself, senator Verginius, will shortly have the oppertunity to take a more personal vengance for this historic vile act of descecration of our fair city. I trust you will use that oppertunity to make our grandfathers proud.

Avicenna

06-07-2006, 19:16

Senators, I believe it is time to consider our future options now, before it is too late and we are caught unprepared. I will list our options here:

I) Sue for peace
This is, of course, not the greatest option. While it does relieve the stress on our coffers due to the extra trade and no need to strengthen our armies, it will also allow our enemies to do the same. I also do not think it will be possible to obtain a favourable peace, and an unfavourable peace would stain the reputation of Rome, making us seem like spineless cowards who would bow down before our enemies and return their land in fear of assault.

II) Attack Gaul
This is going to be the easiest fight, due to the weak nation of Gaul. However, as senator Verginus has pointed out, the Gallic territories are, simply put, good for nothing. They are underdeveloped barbarians, after all, and it will take years before Gaul can be developed into any use at all. It would also leave Italy exposed, as our troops will be far in the North. We will also be bordering Germania and Iberia, and having five conflicts is simply too much for us to bear.

III) Assault Africa
This would be the most beneficial to our state, as it would destroy the major threat to our power in the West. However, it would be close to impossible, due to the military strength of the Poeni and their alliance with the Numidians, which a successful African campaign would leave us exposed to. We will have to increase our military might for this.

IV) Assault Punic Iberia
We could strike the Phoenicans in Iberia, which will be almost without a doubt lightly defended and ripe for the picking. Their holdings there should also be reasonably prosperous, as it would open up sea and land trade with the Iberians. However, it would be far away and hence difficult to control, and a constant guard would have to be put up to dissuade the Iberians from launching any attack.

V) An Achaean Campaign
Finally, we can take Achaeans from the Greeks. This will open up many trade routes with the Ptolemaics and Selucids, and if we manage to negotiate an alliance, the Selucids will ease the difficulty of an Achaean campaign with their many armies. The natural resources and highly developed Greek lands will also be extremely beneficial, and it would be close to our heartlands, enabling easy governance. The problem, however, would be opening up a border to the Illyrians and Macedonians. If we take this route, we should attempt to make peaceful relations with Illyria, and prepare for an inevitable war with the proud Macedonians, who, without doubt, will want to carve out an empire in Alexander's footsteps. At our expense.

So, senators, what path would you take? Personally, I would go for options IV or V, as these campaigns would be reasonably easy and also beneficial.

However, whatever path the senate chooses to take, I will advise to attack the Greek province of Crete, as this will be lightly held, easily defended and open up many trade routes.

Decivs Laevinivs

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-07-2006, 20:07

Firstly I am gratified to note the unity in the senate. This will make make us look strong to our enemies and our friends and people alike.

I applaud the foresight of my collegue Decivs Laevinivs for starting this discussion already. I would like to note the following points :

1. Any prolonged campaign across water will be extremely risky and hideously expensive, and as such I see no merit to such adventures untill we can afford to build a serious warfleet. Already our modest transport fleet is stretching our resources.

2. Even after the building program I have initiated and will continue to follow, there remains very much to be done indeed. A war or further extension of our domains would only limit our growth by draining our coffers.

3. The Gauls are not a very strong enemy. For their numbers and their bravery, they lack discipline, and are no match for Roman troops. We can hold them at bay untill they give in out of hopelesness. We are already at war with three nations. Does any of us want to encourage our suspicious neighbours by annexing even more, relatively worthless, territory from the Gauls ?

4. There is an option VI. The Illyrians are hardpressed and may soon succumb in their war against the Kingdom of Macedon. I rather have the weak Illyrians as my neighbours than the powerfull Macedonians. I suggest we give military aid to the Illyrians to keep them in play and keep the Macedonians in check. While we are there we can harass the Greeks as well. We can also aid the Illyrians in recapturing their lands from the Greeks.

I support option VI and option I.

Glaucus

06-07-2006, 20:30

Those are interesting propositions,
And they all have ammunition.
I support motion one,
Since our empire has hardly begun,
And we won't be outdone.
We need time to gather strength,
To keep our enemies at length.
Macedon is pushing west,
And I support the quest,
To keep Illyria in the contest.
Therefore I support motion six
And may Jupiter transfix,
Our enemies.

(I, Publius Pansa, am fond of rhymes :laugh4: )

shifty157

06-07-2006, 21:16

I believe the Gauls pose the largest most immediate threat to us as we are not separated by a body of water. They can continue to send armies into our lands at will.

That said. With a bit of preparation I believe we can successfully achieve any of these missions.

Avicenna

06-07-2006, 21:52

Father, the Gallic tribes are yet to be united and therefore pose no threat, especially with their incredible lack of discipline, tactics or strength of will to fight. Also, we should not be so rash to choose any. Choosing the most profitable, easy and cheap mission is essential to the strengthening of our republic. For example, even if we had enough men to match the Poeni man to man in their dunes, we would be left with few men and left vulnerable to attack. We must follow a logical order of attack, for example, the annexation of Palma and Iberia before moving for the Carthaginian homelands. Even when we strike Africa, it would be wiser to attack their border regions, such as Hippo Regius, so lure some of their armies away, so that we may crush them one by one instead of provoking hordes of angry Phoenicans to strike us simeltaneously.

Ah, Senator Aemilius, you forget one important thing. Us Romans can manipulate the factions nearby our enemies with.. gifts, or perhaps promises to attack our enemies and not them. We can also sell our map to distant factions who are hungry for information, and for expensive prices at that. We can also receive funding for destroying Rebels from friendly factions, or even for attacking our rivals. The fund of a war will not put as much strain on our coffers as you might think, when you add this all up.

Our increase in a navy is inevitable, and the modernisation of Italia will enable us to fund a full sized fleet to dominate the Western Mediterranean.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-07-2006, 23:12

Senators,

I have just recieved word by courier from acting first consul Lucius Aemilius (DDW) that senator tribune Augustus Verginius (TinCow) has been ambushed while leading the first legion ! It is said the enemy horde is led by the ferocious chieftain Lucco and that he outnumbers our legion two to one ! Oh merciful heavens, senators, what a disaster ! *catches breath*
https://img365.imageshack.us/img365/5969/ambushsmall6zf.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
I also have the unfinished report (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1162837&postcount=9) of the legate Lucius Aemilius detailing exactly what has transpired untill now.

Ignoramus

06-07-2006, 23:23

This is a calamity! If Senator Verginius holds firm, he deserves to be honoured.

GeneralHankerchief

06-07-2006, 23:27

Ye Gods.

Consul, if I may ask where I was at this critical moment, and why I was not assigned to scout ahead on this important mission.

If anyone needs me I will be making sacrifices to Fortuna; for it is clear that we have done something to displease her.

Ignoramus

06-07-2006, 23:32

Yes, Lucius Aemilius, this is serious lack of intelligence on your part, If Augustus Verginius dies, the blood is on your hands.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-07-2006, 23:41

Both Decius Curtius (Braden) and Quintis Classicianus (GeneralHankerchief) are present in the region and I myself, a reconaissance specialist, was watching over the ground they did not cover. But Lucco was cunning and hid deep in the forest, emerging only as the legion passed. I did what I could with the resources I had, but as first consul I will assuredly take full responsiblity if the legion falls. Then again, if the legion falls, I will probably be Lucco's next target and the chances of me surviving that are slim.

econ21

06-07-2006, 23:56

[QUINTUS]: Courage, Senators! This is no disaster, nor even a potential one. One Roman soldier is easily worth two non-Romans. I have the utmost confidence in Tribune Verginius's command ability, ambushed or not, and I expect he will soon demonstrate this to those of you who have not regularly sparred with him in the exercises at the Academy.

But gentlemen, this is a sign of things to come. Once we move on Massila, we will be in the backyard of the Gauls and they will easily be able to raise such large armies to challenge us. The Senate has voted for a halt to conquest after Massilia under the present First Consul's reign. But I am unpersuaded that it would be prudent to stop at Massilia any longer than that.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-08-2006, 00:02

Look to the east on the last map I included in my report. You can see Illyria is on the brink of defeat. Then we will have the powerful Macedonians at our eastern border, who are allied with our enemies, the Greeks. I am looking at Thrace with favourable eyes, which seems to be the sole thing keeping the Macedonians in check. But for how much longer, senators ? I dare not strike out further west than Massilia.

flyd

06-08-2006, 00:24

Do not be too alarmed, Senators. I have fought this Lucco before, and I can tell you that he is a fool and a coward. The only reason he wasn't slain that day is because he was the very first to flee the battle! His men, and we're talking about undisciplined Gauls here, held out much longer than he did. I would not be surprised if he orders a full retreat at the very sight of Verginius' troops!

Ignoramus

06-08-2006, 00:58

But surely if Augustus Verginius dies, Arretium shall fall. The Gauls will be eager to take revenge. Where is the legion nearest Arretium?

Wishazu

06-08-2006, 01:21

It appears that the cunning Gauls are not as weak as we assume, perhaps we should not underestimate them again. If Augustus Verginius falls and his army is routed what shall we do? Where is the nearest available Legion? Where did this ambush take place?

Regardless of the outcome we should not lose our heads and go charging off on some foolish quest to conquer the Gallic homeland. If the war is to continue then let us strengthen our northern frontier, increase the garrisons in the narby towns and consrtuct forts to block all access from the mountains. We should make ourselves impregnable before attacking these barbarians.

Glaucus

06-08-2006, 01:29

Excuse me First Consul, may I ask if I am present with the ambushed army? or am I up the road in enemy territory?

Ignoramus

06-08-2006, 01:35

I think that it was madness of the first consul to attempt to engage the Gauls with only one Legion. Your impetuousness may have cost us a Legion and a very fine General, not to mention a very close friend.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-08-2006, 01:57

My worries were right, Caradog of Samarabriva and his army are sighted west of Jenuensis by our spy Decius Curtius. It was my intention to have tribune Publius Pansa and his legion, currently still residing in Jenuensis, to meet up with tribune Augustus Verginius and the Roman Legion I and together, with the strength of a consular army, to take Caradog on and any other comers. However, Lucco spoiled this plan with his ambush. Still, I have great faith in our soldiers and tribune Augustus Verginius in particular, otherwise I would never have entrusted him with this command. If he is victorious without massive losses, I will continue to carry out this plan. If all fails and yet I survive, I will ask consul Quintus to march northwards with his legion and meet up with tribune Publius Pansa.
It was thus never my intention to counter this force with just one legion.
There are also the reinforcements led by tribune Amulius Coruncanius and my own small detachment nearby and the garrison of Bononia. If the legion is routed, these remnants may still combine into a decent force of near legion strength. Lastly there is the Roman Legion II stationed in Patavium, led by Tiberius Coruncanius. In total number of troops the Gauls and we seem to be almost equal.

shifty157

06-08-2006, 02:14

I have full faith in our Consul in the matters at hand and he has my full support. Senators we are at war and war is not a simple matter. We were very very fortunate in our battles against Pyrrhus and the Carthaginian but we must not be lulled into a false sense that all of our wars will be as straightforward and simple as these have been. Do not despair for as yet nothing has been lost. Indeed you even forget how well we have done against the Gaul so far in the war. Does your faith flutter so easily at the slightest sign of difficulty? We are Romans and whether we win or lose this single battle at the hands of the Gaul is irrelevant. We will triumph as Jupiter is our witness and our aid. We will triumph as long as we can still grasp a hilt. Be strong and take heart in the command of our Consul. He has not failed us yet and I dont believe he shall.

Ignoramus

06-08-2006, 02:19

The might of Rome cannot stand up to repeated ambushes. I fear that despite Augustus Verginius's best efforts, he and his entire legion shall fall. The Gauls know their land better than we do, we ought to cease expanding further than the Alps.

GeneralHankerchief

06-08-2006, 03:09

Senators, even if good Virginius wins the battle, his army will surely be bloodied and in no condition to fight. It is clear that we need a new army to take his place.

While decorum forbids me from entering motions at this time, I strongly suggest the following happens, and plan to enter these as motions once the time is right.

First of all, a new Praetorian army, possibly a Consular one, is to be raised ASAP.

Second, that army should be sent to Gaul as a raiding force. You senators are correct when saying that holding the Gallic provinces are of no value. But if we simply sack them, and loot/raze every stinking building in them, it will surely improve our finances.

I volunteer to be the eyes of this raiding force. The Gauls must pay for what they did. We shall take the fight to their homelands!

Ignoramus

06-08-2006, 03:14

Your proposal has merit, Quintus Classicianus, but what if the raiding force itself was ambushed? These Gauls have proved to be cunning warriors and skilled ambushers; we ought to procede with caution.

TinCow

06-08-2006, 03:20

*The Senate doors are thrown open and a man appears in the entrance, his face pale, his body covered in blood.*

Conscript fathers! It was an ambush! I know not how, but they fell on us... Gauls, thousands of them! We had been trudging through a blinding snowstorm to meet up with Consul Aemilius when we heard a mighty roar from the left...

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Ambush/ambushstart2.jpg

I do not know how it happened, I barely had time to think. The rearguard was still inside a small copse of trees and I ordered the rest of the men to rally around them. In truth, I had little to do with it, it was the centurians who reacted fastest. We had only just formed some semblance of a line when the mass broke upon us!

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Ambush/ambushchargeresize.jpg

I... I cannot describe the horror of the sound of that impact. I have seen war before, but not like this. It was like the Underworld, I tell you! Our line bent back on itself as their mass overwhelmed us, pushing us back. For a while it seemed as though the men would break. The Legion, they stood their ground, they made the Gauls pay for every inch of soil, but we had not enough men... not enough...

They flanked us! Bypassed the right wing and turned upon us from the rear! There were no reinforcements, no rescue, no one to fend off the deathblow... so I looked to my men. The seventeen brave souls who have served me on this campaign; it was to them I looked. We all knew it would be our deaths, but it was an end we gladly accepted in defense of the Republic. We charged, oh... what a glorious charge...

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Ambush/ambushrescueresize.jpg

The Gauls though would not break, would not let up their relentless assault. My men were too few, their bravery outweighing their numbers. We charged again and again until we were but a scattered few. My men... my brave men... it seemed only a moment had passed, yet I could see not a single one of my companions. The Gauls remained though, the Legion still in crisis and I still drew breath... so I charged again alone.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Ambush/ambushrescue2.jpg

I took down three of the beasts, but they swarmed up at me without end. I saw my end in a spear thrust to the face, when suddenly a sword caught the deadly point and turned it. I wiped the blood from my eyes and saw Luca Mamilius, the foremost of my guard and a personal friend who had ridden with me since he left the Academy. He had gathered with him the four other survivors of my guard and they had cut their way through the Gauls to aid me. He looked at me hard and gestured to the left flank. I followed his arm and then I saw him... the demon of hell himself, Lucco! He had turned the other flank and was viciously cutting through the unarmored Velites. They were falling quickly, no match for the heavily armored Gallic demons.

I fear... I fear I failed my men. Rage overtook me. The sight of brave Romans falling to a Gallic horde brought back nightmares I have had since childhood... nightmares of Brennus and the sack of Rome. I abandoned my men on the right and rode at Lucco, not caring if I lived or died. I neglected my duty, neglected my men...

It seemed like an eternity that we sparred, he and I. I screamed in his face and spat blood on his armor as our swords clashed. In truth, I remember little. I do not know how it happened, how it ended. My men tell me that he fell, struck by a fatal blow...

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Ambush/ambushkilllucco.jpg

...and horrible things. I do not remember, but they say I leaped from my saddle and severed his head in a single blow, screaming wildly and throwing the bloody mass into the melee. As if a witch's spell had been broken, the beasts turned as one and ran...

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Ambush/ambushrout.jpg

In a rage, I submitted once again to my rage and ordered my men to pursue. I must have personally ridden down and butchered 50 of the things before I came to my senses. In the end, one Gaul was spared. To him was given the severed head of Lucco, to take back across the Alps as a warning and as a testament to the bravery of my Legion.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/TinCow/Senate%20Ambush/ambushend.jpg

Senators... I submit to you as a failed man. I failed my men, failed the Republic. At the moment of greatest crisis, I let my anger overcome me, overcome duty. I abandoned the most threatened part of the line and rode against Lucco. The success of the battle does not counteract my shame at the action. It was the Legion that won the battle, not I. When I let emotion take over, they held true to discipline. I will never be as worthy of praise as the most low-born of soldiers on the field that day. I beg of you, Senators... honor my men for their bravery and forgive me for my failures.

GeneralHankerchief

06-08-2006, 03:29

An excellent question, Senator Antio, especially in the current circumstances.
Every Gallic city, if I remember from my spying, now has a road leading to it. Primitive ones, but roads nonetheless. We shall take these roads to the cities.

While you are marching along the roads, I can enter the forests nearby and scout the Gallic forces. If there are any within ambush range, I can spot it and let the general in charge know.

That said, I seriously doubt that our force will meet with any ambushes. Currently two large armies are threatening Northern Italy. Meanwhile, Gaul is surrounded by Britannia, Iberia, and Germania. All three are warlike peoples and surely the Gauls will need forces to counter them. The bottom line is that Gaul simply does not have enough people in it to fight offensive and defensive wars at the same time.

GeneralHankerchief

06-08-2006, 03:37

Did you truly fail, Senator Verginius? Because I consider surviving an ambush at half the enemy's strength to succeed, yet alone killing their general and wiping out their entire army with relatively few losses.

Senator, your bravery charging the Gallic horde alone is what inspired your men to fight so well. You are a hero, and deserved to be honored with your entire legion. Hundreds of years from now, when Rome is the greatest faction in the world, the bards will sing the praises of Augustus Verginius, the man who beat off the Gauls.

I congratulate you and your legion, Senator.

econ21

06-08-2006, 09:09

[QUINTUS]: Tribune Verginius has secured a great victory for the Republic! His personal bravery on the day, smashing the Gaul's assault and bringing down their leader, was decisive and brings great honour to his family. I must express particular admiration for they way he hunted down every last Gaul despite having only a few horsemen to call upon. And I applaud his decision to spare one of the Gauls to warn their comrades of what to expect when they give battle to true Romans!

However, I must ask the First Consul to reflect on the scarcity of cavalry in our armies. In the extreme circumstances which he faced, Tribune Verginius was right to lead his escort into combat. Indeed, this is the expected role of a Tribune in an army. But as Verginius notes, he was on that day of triumph, he was not fulfilling the typical role of a Tribune but was acting as a Legate and charging into combat is typically not the appropriate role of a commanding general. Military tradition dictates that Praetorian armies be accompanied by one unit of cavalry; Consular armies should have two. If Legio I had been assigned its cavalry, the Tribune may not have had to risk his life and perhaps even more importantly risk the command of his army.

I understand that maintaining cavalry is an expensive business, but Roma is no longer so poor. Our number of provinces exceeds that of many of our rivals. And I am not one of those who believe we need to recruit yet more armies or even expand our Praetorian armies to full Consular ones - the Tribune has clearly demonstrated that we do not need equal odds to triumph. But I do ask that all armies engaged in active combat duties against the Gauls be equipped with cavalry at the soonest possible moment. As Tribune Verginius has demonstrated, our generals are too valuable to be risked performing the duties of cavalry.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-08-2006, 09:09

I am well pleased my faith in tribune Augustus Verginius was well justified. I am grateful to him for the relatively few losses among the men of The Roman legion I, with whom I have served so much time. He says that he failed us, but those are the words of a man who has been trough a harrowing experience. Our men are well trained and all they needed on this occasion was a bold example of courage. Tribune Augustus Verginius gave that example by his fearless charges into the enemy horde. The legion did not lose heart and triumphed. In the coming senate deliberations I will propose honours to be accorded to this fearless warrior. I am sure Caradog of Samarabriva will be dismayed to learn of this crushing victory.

Braden

06-08-2006, 10:07

Senator Augustus Verginus,

Rest good Sir, I fully understand your feelings of guilt. Tis the nature of warfare that such choices as you made will hang heavy in your mind for an eternity and the faces of those men you lost will burn in your memory for just as long.

But take heart. Whilst you feel you abandoned your flank you must understand and accept that your actions in taking on Lucco and striking his head from his body you effectively broke the resolve of his warriors and hence caused their flight from the battlefield……you must consol yourself with the knowledge that had his warriors fought on longer, being still lead by Lucco, that many more of your men would be in Elesia this day and perhaps even yourself.

Senator, you have handed us a victory snatched from the dripping maws of Cerberus herself! I must congratulate you on this, even though you mourn your losses.

I trust that the First Consul will replace those fallen men and that we will be prepared for the other Gallic Host that marches East, I have seen it my friends, ‘tis a large Host but nothing more than we have faced and defeated in seasons past. Our homelands are not at threat, our Legions are in place, bloodied yes, but ready to force our good Roman steel down the throats of these dirty and stupid Barbarians.

Once that host has been beaten into the dust, what the First Consul does then is something I trust him to consider himself. He has instructions from us and I believe that they are sufficient for the remainder of his Consularship.

On another matter, I have to take my leave later today, I must address affairs at my home before I will perhaps be called upon the most dangerous mission.

When I return…..if I return….I will again address the Senate.

(OOC: As of 4pm UK time today, I will be “off line” until at least Tuesday the 13th. I am finally moving house and will have no internet connect except work until I get that sorted out. As you’ll appreciate it’s a little bit down the list past unpacking though, however, I’ll access the forums whilst at work as normal)

Wishazu

06-08-2006, 10:19

I applaud you Augustus Verginius for your truly stunning victory. Many here, myself included I am ashamed to admit, did not believe you could triumph against this calamity. Thankyou. Thanks must also go to your brave men, tell us, what is their condition? Are they still capable of offering battle?

Senators, what is our next course of action? Will we hold and strengthen the frontier? Or do we launch a punitive expedition into Gaul? If the latter is agreed upon then i propose we increase our network or spies and agents operating in Gaul. We must make sure no Roman army is surprised like this again.

Thanks again Augustus Verginius, your heroism saved the day and reflects great honour on yourself and on the Roman people.

Braden

06-08-2006, 10:30

Senator Oppius Vitruvius,

I firmly believe that the Gauls will leave us no option other than to punish them severely for these actions AND those of the past. However, I also believe that once we reach the Alps and Massilia the Republic will have reached the limits of what we can currently support both in terms of manpower and finance.

The Gauls will pay dearly in their blood as I am certain they will continue to launch attacks against us but we cannot and should not venture further into their lands until after this Consul’s tenure and perhaps even after the one following that.

We must retain our focus Gentlemen. We are pledged to expand our borders for our Security and so that we may build our strengths for the coming conflict with Carthage. Once this short period of building has been completed and we have either dealt with Carthage or are in a position to take on Gaul, Carthage whilst keeping our Eastern borders secure – then we can show the Gauls how we hold our vengeance until we are ready and able to meet out justice with ruthless efficiency.

Ignoramus

06-08-2006, 11:49

First of all, I would like to congratulate and hail Augustus Verginius. He has proved himself worthy to be called a Roman.

Madness, senators, madness! You speak of further conquests? After Cisalpina has been subdued, Rome shall have natural frontiers. If the Senate and People of Rome desire more land, I humbly suggest that we conquer the town of Dalmetia. This narrow coastal strip shall help to secure our trade in the Adriatic Sea and protect our naval intrests.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-08-2006, 12:12

[QUINTUS]:I must ask the First Consul to reflect on the scarcity of cavalry in our armies...I understand that maintaining cavalry is an expensive business, but Roma is no longer so poor. Our number of provinces exceeds that of many of our rivals. And I am not one of those who believe we need to recruit yet more armies or even expand our Praetorian armies to full Consular ones - the Tribune has clearly demonstrated that we do not need equal odds to triumph. But I do ask that all armies engaged in active combat duties against the Gauls be equipped with cavalry at the soonest possible moment. As Tribune [b]Verginius has demonstrated, our generals are too valuable to be risked performing the duties of cavalry.
I agree with consul Quintus, but the costs are indeed prohibitive. Outfitting one unit of equites is about three times as expensive as recuiting a unit of principii. The upkeep of a unit of equites cavalry can keep five or more units of italian swordsmen in the field. I do not have my treasurer at hand, so these numbers are estimations. A unit of Roman or mercenary Gaul cavalry is only slightly less expensive.

Our balance has been slowly dropping due to the increase of our armed foces. We can afford to hire some cavalry. The important question now is how large shall we make our standing armed forces ?

I am stationing italian spear- and swordsmen as garrison units in all our cities. Most have just one unit, others as much as four. This depends on the level on unrest and size and importance of the city.

I want one praetorian legion stationed in Sicily.
I want one praetorian legion stationed in mainland Italy, near Rome itself.
I want the approach of Patavium guarded by a praetorian legion.
I want the northern valley trough the Alps to Gaul guarded by (at the very least) a praetorian legion.
Massilia will have to guarded by (at the very least) a praetorian legion.

So this already requires 5 standing praetorian legions, and I am inclined to increase that to 3 standing praetorian legions and 2 standing consular armies (i.e. 7 praetorian legions). That's quite a large and very expensive army.
For comparison, we are getting close to our goal of garrisoning all the cities with 'cheap' troops and we currently have around 5-6 legions in the field (without cavalry). Increasing our army to full strength (7 legions with cavalry) would lower our balance to under 4000 denarii/year. This is mostly guesswork on my part.

TinCow

06-08-2006, 12:22

I thank the Senate for their kind words. I still believe that the victory was due to the Legion itself, not my own actions, and I encourage you to honor them in whatever way you deem appropriate. Perhaps they could be given the title "Legio I Italia Victrix" or some other such honorarium, so that their deeds are remembered, wherever they march.

Senator Oppius Vitruvius, you will be pleased to hear that the Legion Chirugeon was able to save a great many of the men following the battle. While 206 fell in the ambush, 93 have since recovered from their wounds and returned to duty. Special mention should be made of our loyal Italian auxilia. They fell in numbers far exceeding our own, yet held the flanks of the line and fought without hesitation. When the enemy was in our rear, even the Funditores and skirmishers turned on our foes to keep the backs of our main line free from assault. I fear that all but 9 of the Funditores fell in this glorious endeavour (8 more recovering later), and they have been depleted as a fighting force. After recovering our wounded from the Velites, Hastati, Principes and Triarii, only 28 Romans remained to burn on the pyre, not counting my personal retainers.

This greatly unequal sacrifice by our Italian allies has shaken my belief in Roman superiority over all provinces. The present is perhaps too soon, but I believe that in due time it may be proper to reward the cities of Capua and Ancona with Roman Citizenship. I know that I was one who spoke out against ever allowing such thing, but my experiences on the field that day have changed my perception of much in life. Even when 51 of their brothers had fallen, the remaining 9 Funditores were still fighting hard and would not break. I believe they would have stood and died to the last man if the enemy had not been routed. Those Italians are glorious allies and they have the beating heart of Romulus himself in their chests.

econ21

06-08-2006, 12:32

[QUINTUS]: The five Praetorian armies that the First Consul proposes do not sound excessive. Where they are not in areas where enemy armies have been spotted, they will not require cavalry. But those - like that of Tribune Verginius - on active campaign against enemy field armies need some cavalry, regardless of the cost.

To economise, some of the units in our proposed armies assigned to guard duties could be dispersed for garrison duties. For example, the armies garrisoning Sicily and central Italy could be maintained at well below usual strength provided they could be brought up to full strength within a season by taking men from surrounding settlements (and lowering taxes to keep the people loyal during the emergency). But it is important to have a Tribune or Legate in the area to quickly lead the assembled force to react to urgent threats.

I agree that at least one of the five armies - at the moment the one taking Massilia - should be close to Consular strength. I expect the next First Consul may wish to take the offensive in at least one theatre and this will require a Consular sized force.

Avicenna

06-08-2006, 14:03

My congratulations for this magnificent feat, Senator Verginus! I propose that we build a statue of the noble, brave Senator in city centre, to honour this incredible victory of civilisation over barbarism.

I also propose that Senator Verginus be given command of a full consular Legion, to go on campaign if he wishes, or to even take command of the Legion of Rome herself.

shifty157

06-08-2006, 18:02

I also propose that Senator Verginus be given command of a full consular Legion, to go on campaign if he wishes, or to even take command of the Legion of Rome herself.

Dont be hasty my son. In time Senator Verginius may become the next consul if he wishes but for now regardless of his heroism he is still under the command of our current consul.

While so many standing armies may seem necessary I am afraid of our treasury. It has been continually shrinking. At one point our treasury would bring in more than 10,000 denari every seasons but now it brings in only half that amount. The economic improvements that many senators wish for in the various settlements will effortlessly cost much much more than this.

This financial quandry leaves us with two options. Either we can continue to expand and thus bring more money into our treasury or we can lower the size of our standing legions to free up some money that would have otherwise been needed to support such large armies.

Indeed I believe that we need only a single legion in northern italy within the alps to defend both the northern and eastern mountain passes. The passes are not far from eachother and an army can march from one to the other in a season. Also with a system of watchtowers and a fort or two we can easily give ourselves enough warning to intercept any threat coming from either of the two passes before it has crossed the Alps.

Massilia will need only a single legion as guard to its single bridge and the western mountain pass. Anything more would be unnecessary and unwieldy.

Mount Suribachi

06-08-2006, 23:04

First of all, may I congratulate Senator Verginius and his army on their glorious victory against the Gauls.

I know Conscript Fathers that I have been one of those who has advocated peace & trade with Gaul, and I still hope that such a conclusion can be reached. However, in the event that Roman steel spilling so much of their blood does not persuade them of the futility of conflict with us, I am becoming more and more convinced of the need to agressively raid their settlements.

Over the course of 1 year, a consular, or two preatorion armies could raid deep into Gaulish territory, capturing settlements along the way. As each settlement is taken we can loot it, pillage it, sell its people into slavery, then raize it to the ground before moving on to the next settlement. In just 1 year we could cripple the ability of the Gauls to make war on us. Once we have secured Masilla, and if we cannot agree a ceasefire with Gaul, I shall propose such a motion in the next assembly that permits it.

As for Ilyria, I agree with aiding them to prevent Macedon from reaching our borders, but Conscript Fathers, what can we do to help them? We cannot give them military aid as that would require us declaring war on Macedon, giving us a fourth war to fight at the same time. And alas, our funds are not enough to give them any financial aid - already we are debating the most cost-effective use of the large army we have created that drains our treasury so. If there is any other form of aid we can give to Ilyria, then I would truly like to hear it Conscript Fathers.

shifty157

06-09-2006, 01:44

There is nothing we can do for Illyria now except offer them the option to become our protectorate but i would not advise this.

I see nothing wrong with Macedon on our borders. We are not at war with them and I do not think they would be so headstrong as to declare war on us. We are far and removed from its core provinces. If Macedon is so powerhungry then it should look north to Thrace.

Had it been the Greeks arriving on our borders then we would have cause for deep concern.

TinCow

06-09-2006, 02:28

I do not disagree with the statements that have been made about Macedon. However, I do wish to remind the Senate that they remain allies of the Greeks, with whom we are still at war. I welcome peace and trade with Macedon, but I believe we should be wary of them. The Greeks seem to hold great diplomatic sway over their policies and I would not like to tempt them with any perceived weaknesses.

Peace. Trade. Vigilance.

Wishazu

06-09-2006, 13:12

It is true we should seek to strengthen our borders so as not to appear vulnerable. The Macedonians will most likely expand northwards, the only way I can see us coming into conflict with them is through our own expansion. If we pursue the war against the Greeks onto their mainland then we must be prepared to face the sarissa`s of the heirs of Alexander. They will not stand idly by whilst their southern cousins are under attack. Never forget the arrogant Greeks have always considered us as Barbarians...

GeneralHankerchief

06-09-2006, 20:20

I believe Macedon has plans that do not include us. I'm sure that some mad king of theirs will want to replicate their hero Alexander's accomplishments. The factions to the north and east will face the brunt of Macedon's wrath.

Keeping that in mind, I say we should continue to remain on good relations with the Macedonians. At least one of our immediate neighbors shod be our friend.

Glaucus

06-09-2006, 20:27

I agree.

That said, I also agree with Senator Augustus Verginius, that while a friendly hand should be extended to Macedon for now, we should keep permenant garrisons on our eastern fronts and keep an eye out for suspicious movements. It would disgrace the Republic to have ourselves suprised by a mass invasion on an undefended area.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-10-2006, 00:02

Senators,

I have updated my 'as yet unfished' final report (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1162837&postcount=9) to the senate. It is now autumn 272 BC. Several notable events have happened (and new avatars are available - 3 spies) and Decius Laevinius (Tiberius) has come of age. I interrupt your proceedings, because dire tidings have come to my ears.
Consul Quintus (econ21) is in serious trouble in Sardinia and I would beseech you all to ask the people to sacrifice to the gods that he will prevail over these horrible odds. As he is our best warrior, and not called 'the Victor' for nothing, I have faith he will be victorious, but then again, no man can tempt the fates forever...
https://img363.imageshack.us/img363/5200/272quintusambush5xq.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Ignoramus

06-10-2006, 00:17

For a moment I thoguht noble Quintus was ambushed. However, I know that Romans can stand against such odds.

TinCow

06-10-2006, 00:19

First Caradog and now Ashtzaph! The two foremost citizens and generals of the Republic spring two ambushes on our enemies within three months of one another, and yet our foes are 'prepared' for both! Conscript fathers, I suspect treachery. There may be enemies amongst us...

*Senator Verginus looks around the room suspiciously, then scribles on a scroll and passes it to a waiting man servant, who rushes out of the forum.*

Ignoramus

06-10-2006, 00:25

You are mistaken, Senator, Quintus was trying to ambush the Carthaginian army, he himself wasn't ambushed.

TinCow

06-10-2006, 00:36

I understand that, my words were, "The two foremost citizens and generals of the Republic spring two ambushes on our enemies..." Do you not find it suspicious that the enemy is so readily prepared for the secret battleplans of our foremost Generals? Do you not also note that the Carthaginians have an entire cohort of Italians with them? We have been betrayed, Senators... betrayed...

flyd

06-10-2006, 00:48

Although it is strange that both ambushes would fail, it's hardly time to get paranoid. Perhaps our enemies scout better than you, Senator Verginius?

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-10-2006, 01:21

A malicious senator's voice stagewhispers in the back row of the senate :
Don't you find it suspicious that tribune Augustus Verginus is our only general who let himself be ambushed ? They who talk loudest of treason...

Ignoramus

06-10-2006, 01:34

I find that remark appalling. You would only repeat that remark if you thought it was true. Your behaviour as Consul for Rome shocks me! You, who praised Senator Verginius for his brave stand against the Gauls, would accuse him of treason in order to discredit one of your opponents. You are afraid of his fame, so you attempt to discredit him with slanders.

econ21

06-10-2006, 01:38

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Gently, good Senator Antio - it was not the First Consul who spoke but some unknown loafer who even now hides behind the backs of more worthy Senators.

Ignoramus

06-10-2006, 01:52

Yes, but why would he repeat it in that sinister tone? I apologize to the Consul, for my impertinence, and am willing to be punished for my rashness.

TinCow

06-10-2006, 04:05

I shall ignore the words spoken so recently against my loyalty. You all know that my loyalty to the Republic has never been questioned. Any fool who believes such lies will surely drown in his own saliva.

This is a time for celebration, my friends. The immense success brought about by Senator Quintus is unparalleled in the history of Rome. Romulus himself would never have dreamed of such a victory! I know that this is not yet the time for legislative motions, yet I wish to make it known now that come next election I shall propose the following:

Motion: In honor of the great victory of Senator Quintus over the Carthaginians, upon annexation Caralis shall be renamed Quintarium.

Ignoramus

06-10-2006, 05:18

I disagree. The Carthaginians are honourable foes. We ought not rename a Quintus, although he deserves reward.

Avicenna

06-10-2006, 08:27

Ah, finally out of that blasted academy. Back to business...

I believe that Senator Quintus has served the republic more than any other individual, and so should be awarded whichever position he pleases, be it Governor of Rome herself or commander of a Legion. If settling in Caralis is his wish, I believe we should allow him to rename it to whatever he pleases. He is an old man, and deserves rest. If any of you senators have an objection, do not forget that this man has served the Republic for more years and more loyally than any of you.

Back to the Gladiators...

Mount Suribachi

06-10-2006, 08:46

May I also pass on my congratulations to Senator Quintus for his heroic victory.

However Conscript Fathers, I note with a mixture of alarm and satisfaction that there are 2 large Carthaginian armies on Sardinia. This presents a great opportunity for us! If Senator Quintus can defeat these 2 armies, he will strike a powerful blow against Carthage. We must endevour to reinforce his army as soon as possible so that he may engage and defeat the enemy.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-10-2006, 11:33

My faith in the consul Quintus (econ21) was well justified by this amazing victory. My congratulations to him and tribune Titus Vatinius (Tricky_Lady) or this victory. There is a lull in the fighting in Cispine Gaul at the moment, but our forces are stretched everywhere. I will try to reinforce consul Quintus as soon as is possible, but in the meantime he will have to return to Corsica, as his present position is very dangerous.

OOC :
econ21, could you edit the first picture in the post ? Just cut out the cartheginian army details. Can shift157's post be moved from the first consul reports as well to antoher thread ? The 'treason' comment was of course a joke, but I might have made it more explicit that it was not me who said that.

shifty157

06-10-2006, 14:40

Senators, Might I be the first to truly congratulate my son Decius on his completion of his primary schooling and his full induction into the Senate. He is a strong young man and very sharp. I trust that we will find him room in the academy as soon as possible so that he can become a true roman man worthy of the command and honor he is surely destined for.

Congratulations my son. You have made me proud. I hope that you will continue to act as a guide and mentor toward your younger brother and, in time, all of Rome.

TinCow

06-10-2006, 15:51

I am proud to announce that I have formally adopted Luca Mamilius as my son. As you will all remember, he was the one who saved my life in the Battle of Bononia. He is currently serving as Tribune with me in Legio I Italia. Consul, I request, if possible, that he remain with that Legion for as long as I do. He is a close friend and companion and I would like to have him at my side as an advisor and a pupil.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-10-2006, 17:32

Ignoramus

06-11-2006, 05:12

We must pull Quintus out of Sardinia. Otherwise, he could be trapped by three Carthaginian armies, and against such odds not even he could prevail.

OOC: DDW, perhaps you could speed things up a bit, I fear that people may lose interest if a consulship drags on too long. Also, can you post a screenshot of the positions of all our armies and provinces on the campaign map?

Glaucus

06-11-2006, 05:20

Good luck Legate Publius Laevinus, I'm sure you will make Rome proud. Just keep an eye out for those aquatic Gaul fish-men I have heard rumors about. I think I will go pray at the Temple to Neptune for His aid in the coming battle...

*leaves senate house muttering to self and assorted hangers-on*

Ignoramus

06-11-2006, 05:51

The first consul reports (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1165079&postcount=11) have been updated to spring 271 BC. Legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) and the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia are assaulting Massilia at the moment.

Tribune Augustus Verginius (TinCow), you are currently setting your affairs in order after ten years of devoted military service (in order to become promoted to legate) while Luca Marnilius (Marcus Camillus), seeing that you had your hands full the coming time, has accompanied Publius Laevinius on his march to Massilia. He will return to your company after that campaign.

I would also like to congratulate Amulius Coruncanius (Mount Suribachi) and his wife Tullia with the birth of their daughter Tranquilina.

EDIT :
The first consul reports (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1165079&postcount=11) have been updated to autumn 271 BC. Legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) and the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia are defending the river crossing at Massilia against a vast horde at the moment. I hope your prayers are with them. We have also lost our first town, Aleria, to a suprise attack by Carthage.
https://img105.imageshack.us/img105/2010/271sumendbridge8bu.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
legate Publius Laevinus and the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia face the hordes of Gaul

Lucius Aemilius, you have disobeyed the orders of the Senate! In the winter of 273 BC, you conquered Aleria, in Corsica.
You violated Motion #5 which states: Expansion shall cease for the rest of this First Consul's reign after taking Cisalpine Gaul and Massilia.

This motion passed quite easily with a large majority.

The Motions were voted on in the autumn of 273 BC, while your invasion took place in the winter of 273 BC.

I, Senator Sextus Antio, do accuse Consul Lucius Aemilius of breaching the Senate's orders, and do move that he be severely punished and be stripped of the consulship!

flyd

06-11-2006, 06:23

Motion 1 authorizes the capture of the Carthaginian islands, while Motion 3 explicitly allows it. Both of these motions are somewhat redundant with Motion 5 (273), which does not explicitly forbid the capture of the Carthaginian islands. The motions have some redundancy, and even some contradiction.

For that reason, I move that Motions 1, 3, and 5 be stricken.

Ignoramus

06-11-2006, 06:34

I object. Motion 5 overides Motions 1 and 3. Motion 3b states: The Consul must devote the remainder of his term to strengthening our economic and military infrastructure. This motion does not limit the taking of Corsica and Sardinia. Taking Corsica has not strengthened our economic or military infrastructure. Instead, it has caused the Carthaginians to react violently, and we have already lost the town again.

flyd

06-11-2006, 06:43

Motion 5 does not override Motions 1 and 3. Motion 1 instructs and authorizes the Consul to capture the Carthaginian islands (among other things), while Motion 5 forbids conquest outside Gaul. The two motions are, therefore, contradictory. One does not override the other, all motions have equal weight.

If anything, Motion 1 should be given precedence, as it was proposed first, and also because it explicity addresses the issue of Carthaginian islands, while Motion 5 does not. If anything, you, Sextus Antio, are at fault for proposing a contradictory motion, and now even moreso by trying to get it enforced over another motion also passed.

Ignoramus

06-11-2006, 06:53

No, Motion 1 ought not be given preference. My messengers took a long time to travel from Parthia to Rome. The Senators voted for Motion 5 and so it stands. When proposed the motions, I had 4 influence, while Lucius Aemilius had 3. I was, and still am, Rome's finest diplomat, I ought to be heeded more than those who know nothing of diplomacy.

flyd

06-11-2006, 07:21

Senator, what you fail to realize is that the motions are not yours, or Aemilius', or anyone else's other than of the Senate as an entity itself. Once you propose a motion, it is outside of your influence, it becomes a Senate directive, or fails, and becomes nothing. A motion can be passed or not passed, there is no middle ground. All passed motions are just that, passed motions, and are as such, all equal.

In this case, there are two that are contradictory, and it is up the Senate to determine what the Senate really wanted to instruct the Consul to do. I proposed two things thus far:

1. That all motions involved be stricken, because they are contradictory.
2. That Motion 1 be given precedence as it was the first to be proposed, and as it is the only motion that explicitly addresses the issue at hand.

I believe these are both fair. The Consul was given unclear and contradictory direction, he cannot be blamed.

And lastly, I don't appreciate you trying to push a personal agenda through this house.

Ignoramus

06-11-2006, 07:43

Speaking OOC: You can't make Motion 1 stand just because it was proposed first. When Motion 1 was proposed, I was asleep!

I am not pushing a personal agena through, but Lucius Aemilius has disobeyed the Senate.

Avicenna

06-11-2006, 08:11

Senators, in view of the recent success of Legio III Sicilia Aemilia, I propose a renaming to Legio III Equestris Victrix, the victorious knights, in view of their deadly cavalry wing.

I also believe that Quintus, Roman among Romans, should withdraw from Sardinia and Corsica, in case of the utter destruction of his legion and himself with it at the hands of the baby eaters.

Avicenna

06-11-2006, 08:47

My friends, noble senators! It has come to my attention that our consul has attempted to expand to Sardinia and Corsica, while this is explicitly against the senate's demands. There are those who argue that the senate had ratified motion #1, which allows the annexing of this territory. However, do we really tolerate the breaking of even one motion? Why, if this is tolerable, we might as well not have motions at all, seeing how easily they can be broken! This is an outrage, and I demand that all Roman arms be pulled out of the islands immediately, for garrison duty in Italia.

econ21

06-11-2006, 12:27

[SENATE SPEAKER]: On the matter of the contradictory motions, I can merely remind the good senators of what I said nine years ago:

SENATE SPEAKER: The scribes also note that the voting procedures mean that it is logically possible for the Senate to approve two mutually exclusive motions. The paradox of voting, I believe the Greeks call it. Be wary of this, good Senators, for if the First Consul is given two incompatible directives, he will be more than justified in ignoring both!

econ21

06-11-2006, 12:45

[A letter from QUINTUS]:

Senators,

Forgive me for not appearing in person, but I am currently in the field in Corsica.

Before coming to business, I must congratulate Legate Laevinius for his heroic defence of the ford outside Massilia. He was vastly outnumbered - he had a mere legion, without an alae. And his foes included many fine fighters - gestatae and Chosen warriors. But Legate Laevinius won a crushing victory with only minimal loss. Princeps Senatus elect, I salute you!

All that said, I must turn to the more sombre reason for my writing. I take full responsibility for the loss of Aleria. I urged the First Consul to let me resume my march on Caralis. I did not forsee that the Carthaginians would so smartly move one of their armies by sea to strike at Aleria as soon as I vacated it. The enemy have outsmarted us and I, not our outstanding First Consul, am to blame.

As to the matter of my returning with my army to Italia, we will of course do so. After retaking Aleria and conquering Caralis.

Ave

Quintus

SwordsMaster

06-11-2006, 12:52

Senators! Please! *waits for silence* I have been silent for a long time, preferring the excitment of the hunt in Capuan lowlands, or teaching my son the art of rhetorics to the senatorial floor. But I believe matters have reached a stage where my contribution to the Republic can be appreciated once again.

Are we small children, senators? Do we decide one thing one day, and an opposite thing the day after? This is not the way of the senate. So I propose 2 motions:

I propose:

MOTION No senator may propose another motion unless he has read, understood and made sure the motion proposed is not contradicting any legislation already in place.

MOTION: If the senator believes it is necessary to overrule a motion that is valid and approved, he must propose a motion to invalidate it first, of the type "I propose motion <number, date> be invalidated" and then specify the motion that would be set up in its place.

This is all I want to say, Senators. I hope you see the wisdom in my words.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-11-2006, 12:57

Senators,

My interpretation of the motions is the same as that of this wise legate Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude). It follow the directives of motion 1 and 3 because it explicity addresses the issue of Carthaginian islands. I will not take more territory from the Gauls in accordance with motion 5. If I recall the discussion around motion 5 was centered on how far into Gaul we would expand.

Our garrisons are now up to strength, as was indeed the one at Aleria. But it is obvious the Cartheginians with their ability for naval invasion can strike anywhere and anyplace and no garrison can stand against 1800 men. Now the Cartheginians have retaken one of their own towns I've ordered captured. We will retake it soon. If I did not take the fight to them it might wel have been Capua, or even Roma itself which we would be forced to recapture.

Therefore I will continue this course of action. Aleria will be recaptured and afterwards consul Quintus will again attempt to capture Caralis. Let us keep fighting the Carthegninians on their own soil instead of their own.

All our towns have decent garrisons. The Sicilian ones and the greek colonies and our northen border towns bigger ones. There is a legion stationed in Sicily, one in Souther Italy, the Legio II Sabina Quintia is stationed at our border with Illyria and Thrace, the Legio I Italia Victrix is stationed at our northern border with Gaul, the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia is stationed at our western border with Gaul. Our consular army is in Corsica.

OOC : Concerning speed, I am forced to wait on other players, who play as fast as they can. Some are living in the states, and with the time zone difference this is not helping us.

EDIT : I second the motions made by Swordsmaster.

TinCow

06-11-2006, 15:33

Senators, I understand both sides of this dispute. It is important that the will of the Senate be strictly upheld. To do anything less is to encourage tyrants. Yet, it is also important to make the best decisions for the welfare of Rome. In this case we are confronted with a legislative dilemma. Two clearly contradictory motions and a Consul who chose to obey one of them and not the other. Let us weigh the implications of this event on both areas of Republican interest and decide from there.

It is important to keep in mind that Senator Lucius Aemilius did not simply disregard the will of the Senate. He was confronted with two legislative motions and chose to follow one and disregard the other. While he exceeded the authority of Motion 5, he remained within the authority provided under Motion 1. This seems to me to be, at most, an error in reasoning on his part. He did not exceed his power, he merely exercised his power as he chose within an area not clearly defined by the Senate. Need I remind the Senate that nearly 78% of this body voted in favor of Motion 1, while only 61% voted in favor of Motion 5? The will of the Senate was certainly in favor of Motion 1. Regardless, Motion 5 has still be violated. However, Senators, please consider whether this violation appears to have been done specifically to exceed authority and abuse the Republic. I personally do not believe this to be so. It appears to me that Senator Aemilius believed he had the authority to engage in the island landings and thought he was fulfilling the will of the Republic. Is this the act of a tyrant? Is the an act that threatens the foundations of Rome? Conscript fathers, I do not believe so.

In determining whether a penalty should be exacted, we must weigh the impact to the Republic as a whole. It is our duty to ensure that Rome's best interests are always put first. Senator Aemilius has nearly completed his 5 year Consulship and has brought the Republic great successes. What would we gain by impeaching him or otherwise sanctioning him? We would be forced to appoint an interim Consul to complete the nearly exhausted Consulship and then have another election in a year. We would spend weeks, perhaps months, debating more political maneauvers at a time when the Republic is threatened by many strong enemies. Is it not our duty to improve the status of Rome? It seems to me that such lengthy political matters would distract us from governance and would weaken the people as a whole.

Senators, I do not say that we should ignore violations of legislation. What I say is that this particular incident is, at most, a minor problem that does not have its roots in tyranny or disloyalty of any kind. I believe that any attempts to sanction Consul Aemilius will serve to weaken the Republic rather than to secure it. Let us do one thing and one thing only; let us reprimand the Senate for our failure to make the will of the people clear. Conscript fathers, look into your hearts and then tell me this is not primarily a failing on our part. Let Consul Aemilius finish his term unmolested and let this body take greater care in its future legislation.

Mount Suribachi

06-11-2006, 21:26

Conscript Fathers, may I remind those of you who wish to prosecute Consul Aemilius that you are forbidden to do so until he has finished his Consulship and laid down his Imperium.

Then, and only then, can you bring forward a motion to prosecute him. If you manage to get 2 senators to second such a motion (which I doubt), then you may put it before the house for a vote.

A motion Conscript Fathers which I shall most certainly vote AGAINST!

shifty157

06-11-2006, 21:26

Mistakes such as these are the result of the senators who proposed them. Let this dispute be a lesson in the future that motions (especially when other motions concern the same topic) should be very specific and spell out exactly what the proposer intends. Do not rely on what is implied or assumed but make your motion concrete. No one can dispute words that are written but words that are unwritten can be disputed forever.

Personally I believe that Consul Lucius has remained well within the bounds the senate has placed for him.

econ21

06-12-2006, 15:14

[SENATE SPEAKER]: Order! Order! Senators, the reign of First Consul Lucius Aemilius draws to a close.

I trust that he will shortly update his First Consul report, but I can already relay that Quintus has retaken Aleria. The Consular I Army killed 1463 Carthaginians, including their faction heir and three other prominent generals. We suffered 132 casualties, but our surgeons restored about half of them to be fighting fit.

There remain a few matters that the First Consul's subordinates must attend to but they need not delay us. Quintus is about to storm Caralis, but it is lightly held. Legate Laevinus may be attacked again at the ford outside Massilia, but we can trust he will hold.

So, gentlemen, I propose to open this end-of-term session of Senate for the purpose of proposing motions and electing a new First Consul.

Motions may be tabled and candidates for First Consul declared until Wednesday 6pm UK time. At that point, voting will begin and close Thursday 6pm UK time.

In view of the confusion over past Senate motions, I am following Senator Swordmaster's advice and setting a restriction on new motions:

RESTRICTION: Where a motion contradicts existing legislation or a motion (let us call it motion number # from Senate session dated X) that has been tabled with two seconders, the new motion must begin "This motion invalidates motion number # from Senate session dated X"

If a motion does not have such a clause and is found to contradict an earlier motion that has passed, then the earlier motion will take precedence.

So, without further ado, let me invite Senators to propose motions and to submit manifestoes for the post of First Consul.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-12-2006, 15:30

Let us begin by fixing an administrative detail.
As this is the fifth session of the senate, let us propose all motions in the form :

If propose new motion 5.1 which invalidates motion 2.3 bla bla.

So this new motion 1 invalidates motion 3 of the second session.

Otherwise, my lords, confusion will reign and the scribes might take their own lives in desperation.

[SENATE SPEAKER]: An excellent point - it is done!

econ21

06-12-2006, 15:41

[QUINTUS]: Senators, if I may begin this debate by saying two things.

Firstly, I wish to propose:

Motion #5.1: This House congratulates First Consul Lucius Aemilius on his successful conquest of Cisalpine Gaul, Massilia and the island settlements of Melte, Aleria and Caralis. It particularly appreciates the relatively low level of casualties suffered by our forces. It notes the generous role of the First Consul in providing opportunities for other members of the Lower House to give battle on Rome's behalf.

I believe this motion is self-evident, although members of the Upper House may not fully appreciate how collegiate and public-spirited the First Consul has been in assigning active field commands to generals other than himself.

Do I have two seconders for this motion?

Secondly, I wish to layout what I see as the strategic options for the next First Consul. We have four alternatives:

1) Consolidate - do not expand further
2) Invade Africa
3) Invade Gaul
4) Invade Greece

These alternatives - except the first - are not mutually exclusive. We could, and probably will have to, fight on two or more fronts. The alternatives are also not fully spelt out - do we invade to raid or to conquer, for example? But in broad terms, those are the key options we must consider.

You probably all know me well enough to recognise that I have no time for the first option. I will leave it to others to argue that case.

Instead, I wish to argue for the second option - an invasion of Africa. We have already crushed two full Consular sized Carthaginian armies. A third has evaded us and returned to Africa. These victories have given us an opportunity to strike at a weakened foe. If we hold now, we will give Carthage a chance to rebuild and all our efforts in Aleria and Caralis will have been wasted. Further, Carthage has shown itself to be a dangerous and very mobile foe. Who would have thought she would land three full Consular sized armies in Caralis? Certainly not I. What is she had landed them outside Roma? Who would have expected she could have wrong-footed us and seized Aleria from behind my back by a naval invasion? Senators, I regret we still do not have a navy. Our fleet can transport armies but cannot match the warships of Carthage or Greece. It is no more a navy than a host of fishing vessels is a navy. Carthage will be free to project force anywhere in Italy or the surrounding armies. It will be much more prudent to strike at her homelands and so deny her that force rather than to await its landing on our soil.

By contrast, I argue that Gaul is a much less formiddable foe. Thanks to Legate Laevinius's shrewd observation, we have identified Massilia as a most defensible chokepoint on their expansion. And indeed, thanks to the Legate's inspired leadership, we have seen how well true Romans can do against Gaulish attacks there. I submit that we can safely hold at Massilia. Or even drive into Gaul as we yet strike Africa.

The last possibility - to attack Greece - is, I believe, simply too risky and too unnecessary to consider seriously. It will require naval operations that may be perilous given the strength of the Greek navy. Even on land, Greece is a strong power but since she was expelled from Syracuse, she has taken no action against us. Greece at the moment is sleeping; let us not disturb her yet. Furthermore, campaigning in Greece will take us into the heartlands of the powerful Macedonians and risk dragging us into a fourth simultaneous war.

And so I propose:

Motion #5.2: This house instructs the First Consul to invade Africa with the aim of conquering the city of Carthage and her other settlements on the continent.

Do I have two seconders for this motion?

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-12-2006, 15:48

I'll second 5.2 if you will describe it as a punitative expedition, not an expedition of conquest. All settlements may be looted and exterminated, but not occupied.

EDIT : You forgot Massilia in motion 5.1. That's part of Gaul Narbonensis.

SwordsMaster

06-12-2006, 16:19

I'll second it if you will describe it as a punitative expedition, not an expedition of conquest. All settlements may be looted and exterminated, but not occupied.

Even such a thing is maybe too extreme for the moment.
I request an update of the maps in the Library. There is no way of knowing how our borders and meighbours have changed in the last few years, senators, except for those of us in the field. Which is, at least, discriminating, and at most insulting to the intelligence of those who have to make decisions without having enough information.

I propose the following, Conscript fathers:

Motion 5.3: Build a fleet. This means we need to support one. All possible improvements should be built in Italy to support a greater number of ships and soldiers.

Motion 5.4: Consolidate. We need roads. Walls. Armouries. Cities that cannot build walls, should be within 1 turns marching distance of a strongly garrisoned fort.

For our defence to be flexible, a legion must leave Rome and be in Rhegium by the end of the turn, or be in Medoilanum in the same amount of time. We need to pacify our neighbours, make ceasefires and trade rights with those who we will not fight in the immediate future.

econ21

06-12-2006, 17:03

Avicenna

06-12-2006, 18:53

Senator Quintus, what about Iberia? It is also a Carthaginian holding, and will be far more lightly held.

econ21

06-12-2006, 20:00

[QUINTUS]: I had not explicitly considered Carthaginian holdings in Iberia as a possible target. But they seem unattractive for three reasons:

(1) Distance: I believe we could transport an army by sea from Sicily to Africa with no risk of interception of our troops. I believe we could make a quick crossing from Lilybaeum to Carthage in one season. However, I am not sure that the same could be true of Carthaginian holdings in Iberia. I suspect we would have to put our army to sea several seasons and thus risk interception. And note that more than one landing is likely to be necessary, if our armies are to be continually resupplied.

(2) Threat: just as Carthage may be more heavily defended, so too it may generate more of a threat to us. For example, our spies have detected two Consular sized armies in Carthage, one recently returned from Sardinia. An advantage of striking at Africa is that we will rout these armies, ending the potential threat they pose to Sicily and beyond. If we head into Iberia, it is possible those armies in Africa will again set sail for the islands or our mainland settlements.

(3) Opportunity: I believe Iberia and Carthage are at war. It might be best to let them fight it out in Iberia, while we take Africa. If we enter Iberia, we may find ourselves frustrated by Spanish forces or even blunder into war with them. By contrast, in Africa, we would only have the Carthaginians to contend with. (The Numidians may intervene, I suppose, but the harsh geography means that Egypt's large armies are unable to cross the desert coast road to Africa).

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-12-2006, 20:08

Honourable senators,

My reign is almost at an end. The date is spring 270 BC.
The legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) and the Legio III Sicilia Aemilia are attacking a target of oppertunity and will then retreat to the river crossing near Massilia. I expect the Gauls to perhaps mount a retaliation attack, but that has no chance of succeeding.
The consul Quintus (econ21) has completed the conquest of the Cartheginian islands.

My goals for expansion have been (narrowly) completed. Massive investments have been made in trade, growth, integration and especially into infrastructure. The whole of Italy and Sicily have been covered with roads. We have a small transportation fleet, enough to transport one praetorian legion at once. Our army strength is near optimal, five praetorian legions (three official) and one consular army. Our towns and cities are well garrisoned.
Our enemies have suffered huge losses in men and land. Our only enemy with more troops in the field than us at the moment are the Greek cities. Our borders are as secure as we can make them. Our revenue has increased substantially, but the costs of our armed forces has increased even more, so yet more investments into trade and infrastructure remain of paramount importance.
On all fronts we have made great advances. This would never have been possible without the able assistance and zeal of such notable men as the soon-to-be legate Augustus Verginius (TinCow), the tribune Publius Pansa (Glaucus), the legate Tiberius Coruncanius (FLYdude) and the aformentioned legate Publius Laevinus (Shifty157) and consul Quintus (econ21). But just as I, these outstanding men have only come this far because they were carried by our most valued treasure, the Roman people itself. I dedicate my succes as acting first consul to them.

I will hold on to my lictors for a little longer, to settle the last affairs of state to my satisfaction while this noble house discusses the merits of the men who will take up the burden of my office.
And lords, it is a heavy burden ! As this is, thank the gods, a republic, you will never please all these men you see here. Indeed, sometimes there will not be a solution to problem that will satisy anyone. I wish wisdom on the man whose shoulders are strong enough to dare to carry this great responsiblity. I also call on you to step forward and make yourself known by publishing a manifesto.

I will leave you now, to settle the last details of my reign, but later on I will make my views known on the future course of the Republic of Rome, and I will give specific details on our situation

https://img68.imageshack.us/img68/1807/map270spring7in.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
The world as we know it - Spring 270 BC

The last (almost finished) section of my final report to the senate (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1165079&postcount=10)

TinCow

06-12-2006, 21:48

[Senate Librarian]

Senators, while only a single season yet remains in Consul Aemilius' term, we all know that many things can change in such a time. It seems imprudent and a potential waste of time to prepare a full report on the state of the Republic until such time as the Consul has finally completed the last of his duties. I assure you that when this occurs, the Library records will be fully updated with all information necessary for this body to make its decisions.

Glaucus

06-12-2006, 21:59

Motion #5.2: This house instructs the First Consul to invade Africa with the aim of conquering the city of Carthage and her other settlements on the continent.

I approve of this motion, and fully support the bit invloving permentantly garrisoning Carthago after it is conquered. Carthago is a large city, and the flower of the Carthaginian nation. To take it and leave once it is crushed would be asking for Carthage to rebuild itself and fight another day. We should drive the Carthaginians out of Afrika forever, so they may never again pose a threat to us like they do now. I propose a modified clause, so that Motion 5.2 reads: Motion 5.2:

Motion #5.2: This house instructs the First Consul to invade Africa with the aim of conquering the city of Carthago, Utica, Hippo Regius, Thapsus and Hadrumentum.

From there we may choose to lay off the Afrikans, or take other settlements in Afrika.

econ21

06-12-2006, 22:38

[QUINTUS]: I am grateful for your support, Senator Pansa and will amend motion 5.2 accordingly. I now need one other seconder and two seconders for motion 5.1.

Senate librarian, the First Consul may correct me, but I believe this season (Spring 270 BC) is his last. You are wise to wait to see what time will bring before amending the library. However, other Senators should be assured that they may debate now. We merely await news from Legate Laevinus and any word of our rivals' moves, then it will be next First Consul who leads us in Summer 270 BC.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-12-2006, 22:55

Consul Quintus is correct.

Please, let worthy candidates step forward !

The burden of this office has wearied me beyond belief.
Will no man take pity and take this burden from me ?
If not for me ? Then do it for the people. Rome needs a strong leader. I need some time to recuperate from all the demands on my person.

TinCow

06-12-2006, 22:56

Senators, here we stand, five years on and yet much the same. Thanks to the great efforts of the Roman people, this body and most significantly Consul Aemilius, Roman borders are safer now than they have ever been. The Italian peninsula has been united under Republican rule and for the first time in history we have little to fear from foreign attacks on beloved Rome herself. In the north, the mighty Alps screen our provinces, providing a barrier to all who would seek to attack us. In the south and the west, Sicily, Malta, Corsica and Sardinia have been brough under our control, screening us from Punic naval threats. Yet, this security has cost us dearly.

It was only five years ago that many of you spoke out with me to protest the abominable state of our economy. At that time, our infrastructure was minimal, our Italian allies unprepared for war and our income was barely sufficient to fund domestic expansion. Our estimates then put seasonal treasury income at a mere 10,000 dinarii. Conscript fathers, I note now that our current income is now barely 5,000 dinarii per season. Despite 10 years of constant warfare, of the Italian allies we have gained, a mere two, Arretium and Paestum, are capable of providing us with auxilia. Of our eight newly acquired provinces, not a single one has even begun development of a road network. The noble Senator Publius Laevinus stands guard, preventing the Gallic hordes from gaining access to our territories, but in our current state it takes six seasons, a year and a half, for reinforcements to reach him from Rome.

Yet, for all of this the foremost cries are for more conquests, more armies, more expenditures and less development. These men may give lip-service to the need for greater internal investments, but they are ignorant to the fact that 5,000 dinarii is not sufficient to allow both military campaigning and the level of domestic development that is needed to ensure the future of the Republic. These men want personal glory and care not whether it comes at the expense of starving Roman children and broken bath houses.

We need massive amounts of domestic development of infrastructure and trade to allow for the future prosperity of the Republic. Yet the exertions of the past 5 years have dwindled treasury income to the point where we can no longer even raise sufficient sums to fund the necessary projects. Simply put Senators, we are nearing bankruptcy.

So, how are we to escape from this dire situation? Clearly we must cease expansion and divert all efforts towards internal matters. Yet, as I mentioned before, we do not have the means to pull ourselves up on our own. We need extra injections of income from foreign sources. Despite the best efforts of our diplomats, the Greek and Carthaginian ports remain closed to us. No nation will aid us, even if we wanted such aid. We must take the necessary funds for ourselves. Occupation and annexation of provinces only returns profitable rewards after long-term investment. We do not have the means to commit to such long-term investment. As such, occupation and annexation of further provinces is foolish beyond measure. Yet, spoils of war cost us nothing.

Senators, if you elect me Consul, I will ensure that the Republic is domestically organized so as to maximize all means of income. I shall invest that income back into the Republic to strengthen us and ensure our future. In addition, I will personally lead an expedition with a single Consular size army to ravage the Gallic territories. I shall kill the beasts, burn their cities, take their wealth and leave the wasteland behind. I shall journey from one end of Gaul to the other, killing all that I see and sending the profits back to Rome to aid in our development. Not a single city that I take shall I endeavor to hold. Not a single unnecessary dinarii will I spend on occupying worthless territory.

Now, I hear some of you ask why I would aim this dagger at the poor Gallic provinces when Greece and Carthage are also our enemies and far richer. First, I must remind you that despite the current conflicts, the Greek and Punic people are civilized and can be reasoned with. It would be proper to enslave their people when we defeat them, but true spoils of war only come when the population itself is obliterated. The Gauls are not people; they are beasts. Killing a Gaul is no different from killing a wolf. They are pests, and not worthy of the respect due to civilized people. For the Greeks, their territory is fractured and dispersed between the possessions of their Macedonian allies. An attack on Greece would likely provoke war with the might of Macedon, a move that would surely risk the security we have so dearly won. For the Carthaginians, their territory can only be reached by sea, they possess many mighty fleets, and we have yet to build even a single ship of a class greater than Ligth Aphracts. Any attack would be at risk of interception at sea, a contest we cannot hope to win. Even upon a successful landing, the Punic armies are strong. Their defeats in Corsica and Sardinia may have injured them, but their military might as nearly as strong as our and we would be facing them at the seat of their power.

Gaul, on the otherhand, has been defeated. Their armies have been destroyed; their territories are defenseless. Whatever forces they may manage to throw in our way, they will be composed of poorly trained and equipped men. A single Consular force could ravage their entire nation. Of their allies, only Illyria and Thrace are currently at peace with us. The Illyrians are nearly extinct under the constant attacks from the Macedonian empire and they would never have the power to turn on us, even if they wished to do so. The Thracians control vast territories, but their armies are weak, and they are fully engaged in the north against the Germans and in the east against the Macedonians. They could not challenge us even if they wished to.

Rome must strengthen herself from within. Rome lacks the funds which to make the necessary investments. There is no risk in ravaging Gaul. There is no dishonor in ravaging Gaul. Vote for me. Vote for Augustus Verginus. I shall pave our provinces with Gallic bones and water our fields with Gallic blood.

Motion 5.5: For the duration of the 270 - 265 Consulship only, the Consul may massacre any Gallic settlement he wishes and knock down all barbaric religious structures, provided that the settlement is abandoned after the deed is done.

TinCow

06-12-2006, 23:10

[QUINTUS]: I am grateful for your support, Senator Pansa and will amend motion 5.2 accordingly. I now need one other seconder and two seconders for motion 5.1.

As my manifesto makes clear, I vigorously oppose any attempts to sieze African territories. However, I will gladly endorse motion 5.1.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-12-2006, 23:19

While my feelings about the barbarian Gauls are not as strong as that of senator Augustus Verginius, I agree with his motion 5.5 nonetheless.

We have killed countless Gauls. Thousands upon thousands. The final tally will be made soon, but it is probably in excess of 5000 dead warriors.
At the moment they are crushed, utterly and decisively. Yet still I attacked them, even this spring, as they can rise just as quickly and threaten us again. They need to be beaten down consistently. The only time we can trust them is when they are on their knees. I say we raid their territory as if we were demons from the infernal hells themselves.
Not, my senators, because I am bloodthirsty. But because it must be done. If we merely guard our borders, the next generation will once again be faced with the horror and menace of hordes of thousands of wild tribesmen.

There are however some issues I would like to raise.

Even the savage tribesmen will one day realize the futility of resisting our might. Therefore I propose motion 5.6

Motion 5.6 : We will offer the Gauls the possibility of becoming a protectorate on a regular basis during our pogrom against them (offering any cities we capture and they have not retaken yet back, except Gergovia)

Also, there is a strategic (walled) town just west of Massilia. I propose motion 5.7

Motion 5.7 : We will strive to take possession of this single Gaul settlement Gergovia, as it will be an ideal base for our raiding of Gaul. This settlement we will keep.

I also vehemently oppose motion 5.2 as it now stands. It will be a ludicrously costly offensive, which will cripple our strained economy.

Motion 5.3 is one I would like to second, but again, we can hardly support the transportation fleet we have now.

Motion 5.4 I can sympathize with, but I do not see the point. We have walls, and armories already, and (almost) every city that can build roads has them already. A better proposal would be to stimulate the growth of our villages in Cispine Gaul so that they can build roads. This is why I stimulated colonization efforts there.

econ21

06-13-2006, 00:42

[QUINTUS]: With respect, I do not see why an expedition to Africa would be "ludicrously expensive". Consular I Army is ready to be deployed there. We have the transports. Looting Carthage should provide a tidy sum, if that is the wish of the First Consul. Alternatively, the trade and taxes from the large Carthaginian settlements should be sufficient to pay for the modest garrisons needed to occupy them.

Indeed, the tightness of our economy is largely due to the size of armed forces. They have doubled in upkeep over the past 5 years, while our income has risen somewhat less. I suspect many of our garrisons could be pruned and the manpower released used to support further conquest. It is not clear that we would have to recruit more men for an invasion.

On a point of information, I was pleased to learn that Numidia - as well as Iberia - is currently at war with Carthage. Do the vultures detect our foe is on her knees?

Glaucus

06-13-2006, 01:21

GeneralHankerchief

06-13-2006, 01:31

Gentlemen, there is an easy way to go about this.

We simply land Quintus' army near Carthage. Eventually the Carthaginians will send a large army out to stop us. Quintus meets them in glorious battle, defeat them as I know he will, and then the Carthaginians will sure for peace. We can get rich without having to worry about maintaining order in Afrika.

Motion 5.8: Quintus' Consul 1 Army is to land in Afrika near Carthage and engage the inevitable Carthaginian defense. If the Carthaginians are destroyed then a diplomat is to be sent to Carthage demanding a ceasefire for money.

Ignoramus

06-13-2006, 01:35

No, Senators. If we are to attack Carthage, Iberia must be conquered first. Africa is too strong.

TinCow

06-13-2006, 01:37

Gentlemen, I must ask some questions to Senator Augustus Verginus, regading his plan of action.

Why would attacking Gaul, a nation with countless hoards and deep forests to hide them in, be better for the Republic then attacking Carthage, whose population and society is more advanced then that of Gaul?

Troops are already ready to attack Carthage, and our finest General is ready to lead them, and you have already pointed out the distance from Rome to Gaul and the problem it would take to move our troops there, so how would an invasion of Carthage be any more costly then that of Gaul?

I thank you Senators, and hope you see the logic in attacking. And Senator Augustus Verginus, do you not see the reason in going south accross the sea? There is no reason to invade north, our finest troops are ready to invade Afrika, unless you think you are a more able gerneral then our friend Quintus is?

Surely Senator, you have not forgotten that our ships can transport but a single unit each. Even if we were to assemble all 8 of our current ships and did not lose a single one in combat with the enemy, we would not be able to transport Senator Quintus and his army to the shores of Carthage in a single season. Do you really think it wise to leave a mere 8 cohort force stranded without hope of relief and without any means of retreat when there are two and a half full Consular sized Carthaginian armies within a single season's march of Carthage? Perhaps you have faith that Senator Quintus can conquer of all of Africa with such a small force. Do you also have faith that the aging Senator, who is nearly 60, will not die of natural causes while on campaign, thus leaving our armies leaderless and without hope of personal direction in combat? (No disrespect intended to the honorable Quintus.)

As for transporting an army to Gaul, this would take no more time than such an expedition to Carthage. However, since Massilia is secured and the river crossings guarded by Legio III, our forces would be safe while they waited for their full strength to arrive over the course of multiple seasons.

Yes, ravaging Gaul would be less profitable than ravaging Carthage. However, what have the Carthaginians done to deserve such devestation? This war started as a mere trade dispute. We have annexed many of their provinces and defeated countless numbers of their armies. What crime have they committed that is so vile as to deserve wholesale slaughter? If you instead propose occupying their cities, my manifesto makes my opinion on that perfectly clear.

The Gauls on the otherhand are beasts. They started this war by invading our lands. They sacked Rome barely one hundred years ago. They do not understand civilized life and they have no respect for Roman values. They are deserving of a bloody end.

GeneralHankerchief

06-13-2006, 01:39

Afrika is too strong? Exactly how limitless are their armies? Consul Quintus has repeatedly destroyed Carthaginian armies in the last ten years, most notably stunning victories at Aleria and Sardinia recently! I think they will have one army at most deployed and ready for a fight.

After all, they are also engaged against Numidia and I believe, Iberia. Carthage has limits to its power. They are weak now.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-13-2006, 01:41

Senators,

My final report (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1165079&postcount=10) is finished and I will briefly outline our situation in more detail.

https://img114.imageshack.us/img114/9140/map270spring4ai.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

The republic of Carthage is in dire straits as they are now at war with the kingdom of Numidia, Iberia and the republic of Rome. Even worse, they are losing ground in this war to the Numidians, their former vassals. Their only allies are Gaul. They are in deep trouble, but they have lost the disadvantage of a multi-front war.

The Gauls are allied with the republic of Carthage, Illyria and Thrace and at war with the republic of Rome. This war is turning our very badly for them. They've lost half of what they had in men and land.

The Greek cities are allied with the kingdom of Macedon, the kingdom of Pontus and the kingdom of Bactria and they are at war with the republic of Rome. They are doing very well. Their military is the strongest around.

The Illyrians are allied with the Ptolemaic empire, Gaul and Thrace. They are at war with the kingdom of Macedon. They are having a great time as they are slowly defeating the kingdom of Macedon together with Thrace and they are recovering their lost ground.

The Thracians are allied with Gaul, Illyria and the Sarmatians. They are at war with the Germans and the kingdom of Macedon. Thrace has become a local superpower and stands a good chance of defeating the Germans and the Macedonians. After which, who will be their next victim ?

The Iberians have ties with no one and are at war with the republic of Carthage, but they have become as powerful as Thrace. So now we have a superpower to our west and east.

https://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6209/overviewterritory4vd.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

As you can see, our territory has increased dramatically once again. Where we were once a small citystate, we have now become the most powerful state in our vicinity. Unfortunately, all this territory has to be defended and as such our military has had to increase dramatically as well.

https://img65.imageshack.us/img65/7809/overviewmilitary9zn.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

And so, even tough we have invested 70-80 % of our budget in financial improvements every season, we can see how this has been affecting our financial situation.

https://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6109/overviewfinancial6vg.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

https://img65.imageshack.us/img65/3182/balancefinancial2er.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

On the positive side, our estimated profits are increasing once more.

Military losses on all sides :
Roman killed or wounded : 1339

Gaul dead : 8555
Republic of Carthage dead : 3662
Rebel dead : 250

Total enemy dead : 12467

I would advise any future consul not to lower our military complement. Seven legions is the minimum military force I would recommend for our nation's size and threats. Men will say we can disband some of the legions, but what if, such as is now occuring, a rebellion breaks out ? A legion might have to leave a border unguarded, if that was feasible to begin with, to march for months on end to reach the rebels. Also, there is the question of reserves. If we do happen to suffer a dramatic military defeat we will have the spare forces to cope with it.
We can not expand much further northward even if we wished, for the simple reason that we cannot build roads untill we develop Cispine Gaul. This will take a very long time to do. Without roads, a distant settlement would be almost undefendable as we could not resupply it reliably. We could expand south, but in addition to the forces required to capture territory there, we would also need troops to guard it. We can hardly afford to do this, except by abandoning our economic development. Here also the problem of resupplying our troops would be a major problem.
For those who would say that the sale of loot from the captured cities would pay for this, I agree, but then we would be left with another bunch of captured and worthless moneydraining cities. I would not recommend this. I do advocate a plundering expedition. Whether north or south does not matter to me greatly. Our more dangerous enemy is to the north, our more wealthy plunder lies in the south. I suggest we strike north.

The one thing I would like to make the senate aware of is that the republic of Carthage and the Gauls are not our greatest threats at the moment. Iberia and Thrace are.

I wish you wisdom, and I hereby reliquish my symbols of office to the senate. It was an honour to serve the state.

OOC : savegame 270-2-start.zip

Glaucus

06-13-2006, 01:58

TinCow

06-13-2006, 02:40

I have just looked through The First Consul's report. Can you not see the massive Gallic army just outside our reach? As I am sure you can all see, the Carthaginian homeland is lightly defended. I am confedent that Quintus with only seven units could take Carthage from the enemy. It does, after all, only have a five unit garrison and is leader-less! I urge my fellow senators to support an attack on Carthage, it is clearly the easier and richer of our two prospect targets.

Clearly, Senator, you did not 'investigate' the area around Thapsus where Carthage has two and a half full Consular sized armies. Nor did you 'investigate' the Gallic territories, or you would have seen that other than the large army on our border, the Gauls have no other significant military force at all except for a large garrison in their capital. Nor did you examine our intelligence reports on the Gallic and Punic forces, or you would have seen that the Gallic army is composed almost entirely of unarmored, untrained spearmen while the Punic armies are largely composed of armored and trained phalanxes. Nor did you keep up to date on intelligence reports, or would have noticed that not only does Carthage have a general leading it's garrison, but two of it's defending units are elite Sacred Band infantry, whom even our own Triarii rightly fear. Nor did you even look at the military power chart that was provided by Senator Aemilius, for if you had you would have seen that Carthage has nearly double the number of men under arms as does Gaul.

Tell me Senator, when concluding that Carthage is a weaker and easier target than Gaul, exactly what did you look at?

Ignoramus

06-13-2006, 02:42

Most senators prefer wealth, even if costs the lives of thousands of Romans. The Gauls have been the major threat, as they have invaded Italy three times. Carthage, on the other hand, has only invaded Corsica. Which of the two, noble Senators, is more dangerous?

Could you post screenshots of the actual campaign map, instead of just the minimap?

shifty157

06-13-2006, 04:04

Our empire finds itself larger and more powerful than it ever has before yet somehow we are never quite powerful enough.

Now again we senators must choose who will lead us over the coming five years. These five years will arguably be the most difficult our armies and our empire has yet faced. No longer are we simply battling the far-flung outlying provinces of our enemies but now it has come time strike for the heart and strike we must.

I will here upon this floor offer myself to the will of the republic and her people as a candidate to become her sword and her shield as the next Consul.

I believe that it is best that we leave as few armies unused as possible. Our treasury is taxed enough that it does not need the burden of paying troops who sit and rest and do not work at their trade as every other citizen does.

Some senators believe it is best to strike the Carthaginians who seem beset from all sides. The once proud empire is crumbling and it has now been reduced to its core homelands. Yet it grips tightly to its once glory fights savagely with the hope of reattaining it.

Some senators believe it is best to strike the barbaric Gauls who we so recently pushed back across the Alps. They now sit and brood in their forests and it is true that they will never cease their attacks against us as long as we still control those lands which they claimed their own.

I on the other hand believe that we should attack both. Our armies are stronger and more numerous than they have ever been before and we possess more than enough men to wage a successful war on both fronts. It is very true that both enemies are exceptionally strong but our generals have already shown their prowess in battle against more enemy armies than I care to remember and I believe them and the men under their command more than able to take the war to the enemy heartlands.

You may ask how I propose to invade Carthage with only a fleet of eight ships. I very well know that eight units cannot hold out against forty. These armies of Carthage however are stationed around their capital where they rightly believe our blow will fall. In this assumption they are sorely mistaken. We shall sail from Melite directly south to the outlying Carthaginian provinces. Eight ships can ferry an entire consular army from Melite to Afrika before the massive armies stationed around Carthage can even march halfway to our camp. From there it is a simple march with a consular army up the coast defeating any armies and conquering any cities that we come across until finally the Carthaginian home and fortress of Carthage herself is made subject to our battering rams. Indeed such an endevour would take quite a bit of time but we are not unaccustomed to patience and perseverance

In Gaul I would propose a modest conquest. The pace of the invasion would be cautious and with great care as we could not afford a devastating Gaulish ambush. Beyond the Alps, the forests are vast and thick providing ample opportunity for hiding. Our loyal spies will be our crutch in this treacherous land as we advance from city to city as frog would hop from pad to pad.

Our main thrust would be against the Carthaginians with our invasion of Gaul being supplementary and not entirely necessary. New lands will of course brings more incomes into our treasury and this is something we very much need. Within Italy we must continue to build up our newly acquired lands in the North as they have yet to reach their full potential.

Note that I will note increase the size of our military unless an extreme need arose. I would continue to recruit troops only to maintain the current strength of our forces and to garrison any newly captured settlements.

You perhaps may be wondering what makes me as a man better suited for our situation than other candidates. Militarily I have fought and won against both Carthage and the Gauls. I have seen with my own eyes the capabilities of both of our foes. I have heard the horrible Gaulish warchant issuing from the depths of the forest that is said to have driven lesser men insane. I have charged down the glittering spears of the Carthaginian phalanx. Financially I am still widely regarded as without peer in all our empire in the area of successful management. Where some men have spent their entire lives with only a sword in their hand and others have spent theirs with only a pencil, I have spent mine with both and now I am offering my services to the republic that I may benefit it and her people.

flyd

06-13-2006, 04:37

What follows is the manifesto of Tiberius Coruncanius.

I will once more offer the Senate the option of an invasion of Africa. The fleet needs to be augmented with a few warships, but is nearly ready in its current state. A force of consular army strength in Africa would be more than sufficient to defeat the Carthaginians, and we already have sufficient troops to assemble such a force without depleting garrisons. An invasion of Africa would warrant a halt in the Gallic offensive, for it is never wise to fight a two-front war, and Masilia is the perfect place to do that. If the Gauls wish to accept a ceasefire, then so should we, but that is merely a formality. In any case, a sufficient defensive force would be left at Masilia. Now you know what I would do if I were elcted Consul, and I will now move on to explaining why I believe it is the correct course of action.

The Gauls are no longer a significant threat. They have been pushed far from Rome, across the mountains. Their armies are of low quality, we destroyed most of them, and we have an easily defensible position. Furthermore, there is nothing of great value in transalpine Gaul, and to get anything out of those settlements, we would have to spend much money developing them. For those reasons, it is no longer wise to expand into Gaul, and is very easy to securely hold the border.

The Carthaginians are completely different, however. Their navy still freely sails the seas. As we have seen, they can land large armies wherever they want. Because they're unambitious and not very tactically smart, they chose to do that in Corsica, but they could have just as easily done that in Italy or Sicily. Their armies are of high quality and numerous, and we have a completely undefensible position, as we cannot challenge them on the seas. Now, one thing we could do is destroy their navy, but that would be expensive, risky, and time-consuming, as we'd need a mighty fleet. However, we already have a mighty army, and we would instead do better to attack them on land. Furthermore, African settlements are of much greater value. They would be easier to develop, and have potential for trade.

As far as other things go, I would make a maximum effort to upgrade the fleet. Thanks to Aemilius, we have the necessary facilities in Syracuse. I would put them to work immediately. With only Syracuse working, the fleet upgrade process will be slow, but that will mean that our economy won't be suddenly drained. In time, we will have a powerful fleet. However, I do not plan to postpone the invasion due to a lack of heavy ships.

We have dealt with Gaul, and it is now time to stike at Carthage. But we must not merely make a half effort. Our strike must be decisive, and we must not waste further resources on the Gauls. I believe we can achieve a swift victory over Carthage.

econ21

06-13-2006, 09:24

[QUINTUS]: It is good once again to see such clear differences in the programmes for candidates for First Consul.

On another matter, after reflection, I have decided to ammend:

Motion #5.1: This House grants First Consul Lucius Aemilius a triumph. This is on account of his successful conquest of Cisalpine Gaul, Massilia and the island settlements of Melte, Aleria and Caralis with relatively little loss. It notes the generous role of the First Consul in providing opportunities for other members of the Lower House to give battle on Rome's behalf.

If anyone is unconvinced by this motion, I urge them to look at the record of battles under the First Consul's rule. Our forces have slain over 12,000 enemies - twice what was done under my own rule. The fact that the First Consul often delegated command is even more to his credit, as it ensures that we have a cadre of battle hardened senior generals to call upon in years to come.

I hope Senator Verginius will still second this motion.

I still require an additional seconder for both motion 5.1 and 5.2.

Braden

06-13-2006, 11:24

A messenger arrives in the senate:

“Noble Senators of the Republic, I ask leave to read a message from Senator Decius Curtius who is in Afrika at this time.”

….the messenger waits a short time until nodded to proceed by the Senate Speaker. Unrolling the parchment he begins to read in a clear concise voice….

“Senate of Rome, I stand here in the desert after leaving a broken city. Carthago’s population are full of fear and all about me I hear whispers of a familiar name – Quintus – Quintus the Destroyer, Quintus the Devastator, Quintus the Murderer…….all these names I have heard the local plebeians mention in lowered tones.

Unrest grows as does they panic, the population is only held in check with the iron grip of King Hasdrubal and his secret police force.

The greatest generals Carthage had to put to field have been killed in short order by Former Consul Quintus and his victorious Legions. All I see around me is fear of Impending doom and Quintus’s march into Carthago itself!

King Hasdrubal continues his reign helped not only by his secret police but by his navy. The Navy continues to heap scorn upon us and nourish his delusions of grandeur with their assurances that they can transport what remains of his armies to any part of our lands and strike us a death blow.

I continue to investigate the details of what remains of the Carthage land-based military forces but I ask the good Senate to support any motions that would bring the Carthage Plebeians greatest fears to life.

Carthage is weak and in great fear, I ask that we strike at Carthago with great speed.

I beg the Senates apologies that I am not aware of our own military and financial ability at this time and that I presume much in my call for invasion. All I can say is that IF we wish Carthage to no longer be a threat in the future it is within the next year or so that we must strike her and defeat her.

I am prepared to undertake whatever missions in these lands that the Consul deems required to further aid such a choice and I dare say that, accompanied as I am by the good natured Placus Laelius, the pair of us can do much to path the way for such an undertaking.

The Senates Servant,

Decius Curtius”

The messenger finishes and re-rolls the scroll……

….”I am required to ask if there is any response to this message and I will await the Senates pleasure before returning in the next two days with such response as the Senate deems is needed for my master.”

TinCow

06-13-2006, 12:01

[QUINTUS]: I hope Senator Verginius will still second this motion.

Senator Quintus, you can most certainly count on my continuing support.

Death the destroyer of worlds

06-13-2006, 12:29

Senators,

Last night I was haunted by dreams of war. I saw again the deaths of women and children that I have witnessed these last few years. I am convinced that the Gods send me these dreams as a warning that needless bloodshed should be avoided in our campaigns. I know some men call me hugely superstitious, but nevertheless I shall be forced to withdraw my support for motion 5.5 unless it is reformulated to :

Motion 5.5: For the duration of the 270 - 265 Consulship only, the Consul may massacre enslave the population of any Gallic settlement he wishes and knock down all barbaric religious structures, provided that the settlement is abandoned after the deed is done.

If we enslave the Gauls we will be doing them a kindness as we take them into a civilized culture and we need the extra population badly. I see no harm in bringing them to a better life. I would also suggest changing the sentence all barbaric religious structures to all barbaric structures, but this is not a big issue for me. If senator Verginius will not reformulate this motion I will propose a motion myself. I ask the senator if he is willing to make these changes.

SwordsMaster

06-13-2006, 12:37

[QUINTUS]: First Consul Aemilius, I believe it would be better if you proposed an alternative motion to 5.2, as that was clearly intended to be a mandate for conquest.

I would also note that extermination of settlements is an act so extreme that this house was constituted with a strict prohibition on its commission. Only reluctantly, did I consent to Carthage being exempted from that prohibition and indeed I have ammended motion 5.2 so that so severe a measure is not mandated. Carthage is a great city and a great prize - few other cities will ever rival its size or potential. To take and then abandon such a prize seems perverse.

I agree. There is much more profit to be made from a city than from a graveyard.

Senator Swordsmaster, on motion 5.4, I believe much of Dalmatia is occupied by Macedon. As such I would class your proposal along with that of taking the war to Greece as a step too far at the current moment.

This is why I requested an updated version of the maps. I do not wish to take war to Greece, and therefore I will not insist in the occupatio of Dalmatia. I stand by my request of building a fleet.

Also on motion 5.3, I would note that all settlements anywhere in the known world that are capable of having walls already have them in some form. The lack of defensible walls is a fact of geography, not a decision of ours.

Those cities unable to protect themselves need protection, so I will amend the motion to include forts to protect those cities that cannot build their own defences.

These are the amended versions of the motions cited:

Motion 5.3: Build a fleet. This means we need to support one. All possible improvements should be built in Italy to support a greater number of ships and soldiers.

Motion 5.4: Consolidate. We need roads. Walls. Armouries. Cities that cannot build walls, should be within 1 turns marching distance of a strongly garrisoned fort.