Chavez and the Jackal

[Vladimir]

I thought it would be a good idea to inform JAG and everyone who supports the populist leader of Venezuela, who one if his greatest admirers is. It's none other than Carlos the Jackal (http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/05/dispatches_from_2.html#more).


A couple of other interesting facts from the Bernie [Carlos] the Jackal file.

He has become a radical Muslim. He now declares that he is an ardent supporter of Osama Bin Laden. He praised the New York Trade Towers attack on 9/11 and called it a “lofty feat of arms.”

He is also a fan of Hugo Chavez, Cindy Sheehan’s buddy who runs Venezuela.

In fact Chavez and The Jackal are pen pals. They write back and forth.

In one letter, printed in Harper’s, Hugo Chavez said this to his boy Bernie the Jackal:

“Time delivers miracles only to those who maintain a righteous spirit, to those who understand the true meaning of things.”

Sooo 1960’s. Does that have that revolutionary sound? I mean is that Bobbie Seale writing to Huey Newton and the Black Panthers?

Hugo Chavez president of Venezuela, who recently called President George Bush the most evil man in the world refers to Bernie the Jackal as “my distinguished compatriot.” Go figure.

Edit: damn grammar.

[Avicenna]

You happen to be named after one of his brothers :laugh4:

Well, Bush has ties to Bin Laden and his family as well.

[Vladimir]

You happen to be named after one of his brothers :laugh4:



Well my interest is more in ancient history. I actually have very little knowledge of who that particular person was but I know they named a providence/state/thing after him.

[Major Robert Dump]

Yes I was at a diner and I thought I saw Chavez and Richard Gere having lunch but I didn't want to say anything because Bruce Willis was watching me and I think he had a gun.

[Redleg]

Yes I was at a diner and I thought I saw Chavez and Richard Gere having lunch but I didn't want to say anything because Bruce Willis was watching me and I think he had a gun.

Are you sure that it was a gun that you saw poking out of his pants pocket?

:oops:

[solypsist]

let's just cut right to the extreme, over-the-top comparison and ask: if hitler liked donuts, would donuts suddenly be unacceptable food by association?

the fact that carlos the jackal (who is venezuelan) likes this or that person is irrelevant. unless one wants to start using this character-judgement-by-oblique-association process for everyone: the bush family are great admirers of teh house of saud and the bin laden family. see? totally worthless. :dizzy2:

[Vladimir]

let's just cut right to the extreme, over-the-top comparison and ask: if hitler liked donuts, would donuts suddenly be unacceptable food by association?

the fact that carlos the jackal (who is venezuelan) likes this or that person is irrelevant. unless one wants to start using this character-judgement-by-oblique-association process for everyone: the bush family are great admirers of teh house of saud and the bin laden family. see? totally worthless. :dizzy2:


In fact Chavez and The Jackal are pen pals. They write back and forth.

Do you even read what's posted?

[stalin]

Do you even read what's posted?
Does anyone?

[Tachikaze]

"Penpals"? Have you read their letters? Could they also be called by the more neutral term, correspondances?

[JAG]

Yeh, this shows me! Damn he has had correspondance with a 'nasty' man. I wonder how many 'nasty' men Bush has had correspondance with? The list is probably endless.

It is quite amazing how desperate the right always is in trying to find at least a tiny, little bit of information to damn the greatest leader in the world at the moment, but how they find it so damn hard.

Chavez will rule via a more democratically elected way than the rulers of both mine and the US' country and will change the face of it and South America for the better, get used to it.

[Tribesman]

Do you even read what's posted?
Yep , FDD is always good for a laugh , thanks for providing others with the link as I don't normally do links . Cheers Vlad its a ripper :2thumbsup:

Oh sorry , that wasn't your intention was it :oops:

[Tachikaze]

Yeh, this shows me! Damn he has had correspondance with a 'nasty' man. I wonder how many 'nasty' men Bush has had correspondance with? The list is probably endless.

It is quite amazing how desperate the right always is in trying to find at least a tiny, little bit of information to damn the greatest leader in the world at the moment, but how they find it so damn hard.

Chavez will rule via a more democratically elected way than the rulers of both mine and the US' country and will change the face of it and South America for the better, get used to it.
Sadly, chances are, he will be undermined by the US. The US government, especially the Republicans, are very good at that.

We may never see the good that could come from Chavez (I say say could because I am still cautious, though optimistic about him). US conservatives don't want people to realize the alternatives and possibilites. They prefer dictators and/or capitalists that they can manipulate.

I think the association with Carlos the Jackal is a valid concern, something to investigate further, but one that should be assessed more carefully, not used to automatically indict.

Like the US government, there are forumers who simply don't want Chavez to succeed in improving Venezuela and inspiring other nations to take a more socialized and egalitarian approach. They want to watch him fail so they can point at him and say, "see, socialism doesn't work!"

[Vladimir]

Socialism does work. Just look at the economies of France and Germany.

[Tribesman]

Socialism does work. Just look at the economies of France and Germany.
Yep you have a point there Vlad , neither of those countries has a public debt anyway near your own , neither has a trade defecit anyway near your own , and neither is so beholden to chinese money to keep afloat .:idea2:
Now if you want to talk economic competiteveness , then how many of the top 10 countries would you describe as having "socialist" domestic policies:oops:
Perhaps you had better not look ,they have high taxes and generous healthcare/welfare payments . You wouldn't want to get your bubble burst would you :inquisitive:

[Xiahou]

let's just cut right to the extreme, over-the-top comparison and ask: if hitler liked donuts, would donuts suddenly be unacceptable food by association?I agree with that sentiment.... however, if donuts called Hitler their "distinguished patriot", that might be a reason no to like them anymore. :wink:

[Ser Clegane]

Socialism does work. Just look at the economies of France and Germany.

Wow ... I didn't know we were a "Socialist" country. Thanks so much for enlightening me.
Perhaps you would be willing to define "Socialism" in this context?

[Tribesman]

I agree with that sentiment.... however, if Osama B called Bush his best recruiter would that be a reason for the donuts to not like George anymore ?
edit , thats doughnuts BTW

[Csargo]

let's just cut right to the extreme, over-the-top comparison and ask: if hitler liked donuts, would donuts suddenly be unacceptable food by association?

Yes, but I eat them anyways:shame:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Chavez will rule via a more democratically elected way than the rulers of both mine and the US' country and will change the face of it and South America for the better, get used to it.

So oppression of freedoms and heavily subsidizing gasoline use (and you seem to think not taxing gas enough is terrible) is good? Or is it okay because he's Chavez?



It is quite amazing how desperate the right always is in trying to find at least a tiny, little bit of information to damn the greatest leader in the world at the moment, but how they find it so damn hard.

Lol. What is really funny is how you refuse to criticize Chavez in the slightist, or concede that he could be doing one tiny thing wrong.

And don't worry; I don't strain myself at all finding out why Chavez is bad. He changes laws to gain more power, outlaws politic protest, oppresses the people...etc. It's like he's the reality of what weenie leftists say Bush is, but you support him becuase he gives some money to the poor.


Like the US government, there are forumers who simply don't want Chavez to succeed in improving Venezuela and inspiring other nations to take a more socialized and egalitarian approach. They want to watch him fail so they can point at him and say, "see, socialism doesn't work!"

I know socialism doesn't work. Look at the socialist countries in history. I'll admit a lesser approach, more welfare state, similar to some European countries, can work.
I want him to stop because he's screwing over his people in the long run, and is anti-American. Right now, he's supported by high oil prices. But those won't last forever.

Crazed Rabbit

[JAG]

CR - as ever if you could prove any of which you state, it would be a great thing, maybe then I would consider your posts from time to time. Where are the facts behind what you state? Chavez was unseated for two days due to a coup SUPPORTED by Bush and your government, yet when the people took to the streets and got their democratically elected leader back into office, what did he do to those who unseated him? Murder them? Trial them? Ban them from the country? No, he took no action because he did not want to give people like you a chance to state he is an authoritarian leader. He goes out of his way to be clean and corruptless let alone anti Authoritarian, how many elections has he ledgitimately won now? Do you even know?!

Sigh.

And he does not merely 'give money to the poor' he has significantly improved, and continues to do so, the lives of the vast majority of people in his nation. Just because they are not white and rich, but non white and poor, doesn't mean they are not deserving, which is often the tone of thought which comes from people like you.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And he does not merely 'give money to the poor' he has significantly improved, and continues to do so, the lives of the vast majority of people in his nation. Just because they are not white and rich, but non white and poor, doesn't mean they are not deserving, which is often the tone of thought which comes from people like you.

Its pretty clear that his medical clinics and libraries in the poorest areas represent an improvement for the near-destitute among Venezuela's population. Right now, these programs are being sustained with petro-dollars and Chavez' socialist stance has caused a capital flight among foreign investors. Will Chavez' be able to sustain his dream with an increasing government payroll centered on one nationalized product? Long-term economic stability may be in question.

Why does he attack the biggest market for his country's prime revenue source? A few smug goads like the low-cost heating oil for the poor thing are mostly harmless and win a few brownie points, but he could tone down the rhetoric a notch or three and reap billions more for his reform programs -- assuming that these programs are his primary goal. Por que no?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Chavez is a pretty good reason for the US to get off of oil. Not as good a reason as, say, Saudi Arabia, but still a good one.

[Crazed Rabbit]

CR - as ever if you could prove any of which you state, it would be a great thing, maybe then I would consider your posts from time to time. Where are the facts behind what you state?

Oh please JAG. He HAS changed the laws to get more power, he HAS passed laws against free speech and dissent. We both know it. Denial doesn't work forever. (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/785ruylo.asp?pg=1) Though I suspect you'll continue trying a bit. Or is the world and all the news agencies just part of one big anti-Chavez conspiracy, and that no fact that in any way fails to show how glorious Chavez is to be trusted? :laugh4:

Oh, and his treatment of the opposition? I wouldn't wager on it being too friendly. (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/153kcfti.asp)
But go ahead, keep sputtering about Chavez being the 'greatest leader in the world'. I'll admit, he's certainly good at getting starry-eyed socialists to swoon over him. Of course, given the lack of socialist leaders who aren't apallingly blatantly dicatorial (N. Korea), and the swooniness of today's starry-eyed socialists, that isn't too hard.



And he does not merely 'give money to the poor' he has significantly improved, and continues to do so, the lives of the vast majority of people in his nation. Just because they are not white and rich, but non white and poor, doesn't mean they are not deserving, which is often the tone of thought which comes from people like you.

Ah, the obligatory 'racist' accusation. After all, why bother having an argument when its so much easier to just put the brain on autopilot and lob out accusations?

Yes, he probably has bettered the lives of some people-only after driving out foreign business and making his country dependent on high oil prices. "Significantly improved a vast majority' is a joke; poverty remains at the same level, if not more.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

Nice articles Rabbit , who would have thought that the source of the articles was funded by Exxon Mobil eh :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Or is the world and all the news agencies just part of one big anti-Chavez conspiracy
Well , Jag ould be right if he said that the majority of Venezuelan news agencies were part of a big anti-Chavez conspiracy wouldn't he Rabbit , due to the fact that the media owners were involved in the coup in a very BIG way .

[Major Robert Dump]

Are you sure that it was a gun that you saw poking out of his pants pocket?

:oops:

My statement was kind of amibiguous, so I don't know who you think might be pointing something other than a gun at me, but Richard Gere does carry around a lot of bratwurst (to feed his ferrets) so maybe it wasn't a gun.

[Tachikaze]

He HAS changed the laws to get more power
So did FDR in the 1930s. Actually, he circumvented them. Venezuela has been in crisis, like the US was in 1933, and needs a strong, decisive government to take quick action. You can't judge a government by what it does in the short term. If Venezuela ever gets stable and the goverment never becomes more moderate, then be concerned. But that stability could be decades away, even if handled expertly.

But you could never make the changes needed with an inefficient government like Japan's. Due to the concensus nature of their decision making, that nation's political structure is very democratic, but moves like a snail on Valium.

[Crazed Rabbit]

An interesting point, Tachikaze.
I would say, however, that his use of enhanced powers, and the time span, six years and counting, give me reason to lean towards the view that he is not simply doing this for the good of the state. To me, it does not seem that Venezuela is so unstable that this is necessary.
His laws against dissent, trying to muzzle the media, stack the courts, etc., point towards someone who is not just using a bit more executive power to keep the nation together, but also to cement his control over it.


Nice articles Rabbit , who would have thought that the source of the articles was funded by Exxon Mobil eh

Really? Do tell.


Well , Jag ould be right if he said that the majority of Venezuelan news agencies were part of a big anti-Chavez conspiracy wouldn't he Rabbit , due to the fact that the media owners were involved in the coup in a very BIG way .
Hmm, did I say that the Venezuelan media wasn't anti-Chavez? Do try and not make wild conjunctures.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

Really? Do tell.
Find out for yourself rabbit , it doesn't take much effort to type the authors name into a search engine does it , just like it doesn't take much effort to find out who finances the non-profit organisation he works for .

[Crazed Rabbit]

Find out for yourself rabbit , it doesn't take much effort to type the authors name into a search engine does it

More effort than you are willing, or able, to exert, apparently. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Explain how the fact that Exxon Mobile gave 0.5 percent of ALF's funding to ALF since 1998 effects the author's veracity, when the author is a peon in the ALF, and what this has to do with the facts presented?:book: :dizzy2:

Don't bother yourself answering (as you can't even be bothered to post links); I know you're just trolling around, with no thought or mind for actual debate. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Crazed Rabbit

[Idaho]

He changes laws to gain more power, outlaws politic protest, oppresses the people...etc. the (rich).
Keep on topic. We're talking about Chavez not Bush :laugh4:

[Tribesman]

Explain how the fact that Exxon Mobile gave 0.5 percent of ALF's funding to ALF since 1998 effects the author's veracity, when the author is a peon in the ALF, and what this has to do with the facts presented?

Authors veracity and facts:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

There is no doubting the veracity of an article about Venezuela from a conservative pressure group that gets funded by exxon mobile , Chevron ,Texaco and half a dozen other chemical and mining companies when the policies of the Venezuelan government impact on their financial interests:dizzy2:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Really? It couldn't be that the acts of Chavez are naturally contrary to free markets and personal liberty? Any proof of all those companies funding the ALF, and how The Weekly Standard is a conservative pressure group?

Your persistance in avoiding debate on the topic is astounding. Have a balloon: :balloon2:
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


Keep on topic. We're talking about Chavez not Bush
Right. He is such a tyrant, isn't he;
http://www.andreageyer.info/newimagesforweb/DNC.select.small/DNC.Robocops.jpg
The 'free speech zone':
http://www.andreageyer.info/newimagesforweb/DNC.select.small/DNC.cage.05.jpg
Oh, wait a minute...

Crazed Rabbit

[Louis VI the Fat]

Here is Hugo's letter of praise to Carlos the Jackal:

http://www.analitica.com/bitblioteca/hchavez/carta_chacal.asp


Naturally, they correspond in spanish, but from what I gather from it, the admiration is mutual. Naturally again, you can guess my thoughts about Chavez being buddies with a terrorist who's currently in gaol for the murder of Frenchmen.


Just about everything else that's written in that blog is not true.

[Tribesman]

Any proof of all those companies funding the ALF

Well you should know Rabbit , a quick look at its finances should be enough , or a look at its board of directors .

[Soulforged]

Here is Hugo's letter of praise to Carlos the Jackal:

http://www.analitica.com/bitblioteca/hchavez/carta_chacal.asp


Naturally, they correspond in spanish, but from what I gather from it, the admiration is mutual. Naturally again, you can guess my thoughts about Chavez being buddies with a terrorist who's currently in gaol for the murder of Frenchmen.


Just about everything else that's written in that blog is not true.
It's more about praising to the revolution, also an academic class it seems. Mostly he talks about Bolivar and God again, remembering their wisdom, and hopes for a new leader to see the light to glory. Now this part scares me a little:
"Yo siento que la energía de mi alma se eleva, se ensancha y se iguala siempre a la magnitud de los peligros. Mi médico me ha dicho que mi alma necesita alimentarse de peligros para conservar mi juicio, de manera que al crearme Dios permitió esta tempestuosa revolución, para que yo pudiera vivir ocupado en mi destino especial."
I'll translate it: "I feel that the energy of my soul raises, widens and becomes equal to the measure of dangers. My doctor has told me that my soul needs to feed upon dangers so I can keep my sanity, in that way that when God created me he allowed this thunderous revolution to happen,so I could live occupied with my special destiny." This quote if from Bolivar.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's more about praising to the revolution, But Chavez feels that he and this terrorist are part of the same revolution.

I don't care how confused and unintelligable his letter about the revolution is. Chaves concludes that he and this convicted terrorist are part of one and the same movement. :no:

With profound faith in the cause and the mission. For now and for always!

[Soulforged]

But Chavez feels that he and this terrorist are part of the same revolution.

I don't care how confused and unintelligable his letter about the revolution is. Chaves concludes that he and this convicted terrorist are part of one and the same movement. :no:

With profound faith in the cause and the mission. For now and for always!
Carlos The Jackal: To know why a person is like this now we might, as well, know his past.
(This is all from wikipedia)
Ramírez Sánchez was born in Caracas, Venezuela. His father, a Marxist lawyer, gave him the forename Ilich, after Lenin. He was educated at a local school in Caracas and joined the youth movement of the national communist party in 1959. Apart from his native Spanish, he reportedly speaks Arabic and Russian, as well as English and French. After attending the Third Tricontinental in January, 1966, with his father, he spent the following summer at Camp Mantanzas, a guerrilla warfare school run by the Cuban DGI located near Havana. Later that year, after the divorce of his parents, his mother took him and his brother to London to continue their studies in Stafford House Tutorial College in Kensington. In 1968 his father tried to take him and his brother Lenin to Sorbonne University but eventually opted for Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow. He was expelled from the university in 1970.
Apparently he traveled from there to a guerrilla training camp run by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) in Amman, Jordan. It was there that he gained the pseudonym Carlos (my note: I suppose it's from Marx, Carlos Marx). He claimed to have fought alongside the PFLP members as they resisted the Jordanian government's efforts to expel them in 1970. When he did leave Jordan it was for London where he attended courses at the London School of Economics and apparently worked for the PFLP.
Carlos was given the "Jackal" moniker by the press when the Frederick Forsyth novel The Day of the Jackal was reportedly found among his belongings. Although the book actually belonged to someone else, the nickname stuck.
In 1973 Carlos performed his first criminal act for the PFLP, a failed assassination attempt on Jewish businessman Joseph Sieff prompted by the Mossad assassination of Mohamed Boudia, a theatre director accused of being a PFLP leader, in Paris. Ramírez Sánchez also admits responsibility for a failed bomb attack on the Bank Hapoalim in London and car bomb attacks on three French newspapers who were accused of pro-Israeli leanings. He claimed to be the grenade thrower at a Parisian restaurant, an attack that killed two and injured thirty. He later participated in two failed rocket propelled grenade attacks on El Al airliners at Orly Airport near Paris, France on January 13 and 17, 1975.
On June 27, 1975 Ramírez Sánchez's PFLP contact Lebanon-born Michel Moukharbal was captured and successfully interrogated. When three policemen tried to apprehend Ramírez Sánchez at a house in Paris in the middle of a party, he shot two detectives, fled the scene, and managed to escape through Brussels to Beirut. It was later revealed that Michel Moukharbal had been secretly working for the Mossad.
From Beirut Carlos participated in the planning for the attack on the headquarters of OPEC in Vienna. In December 1975 he led the six-person team that assaulted the meeting of OPEC leaders and took over sixty hostages. On December 22 the rebels and forty-two hostages were given an airliner and flown to Algiers, where thirty hostages were freed, the DC-9 was then flown on to Tripoli where more hostages were freed before flying back to Algiers where the remaining hostages were freed and the rebels were granted asylum. Ramírez Sánchez soon left Algeria for Libya and then Aden where he attended a meeting of senior PFLP officials to justify his failure to execute two senior OPEC hostages, oil minister of Iran Jamshid Amuzgar and the oil minister of Saudi Arabia, Ahmed Zaki Yamani. He might have also embezzled some of the ransom money. PFLP leader Wadie Haddad expelled him.
In September 1976 Ramírez Sánchez was briefly arrested in Yugoslavia and then flown to Baghdad. From there he chose to settle more permanently in Aden, where he set about forming his own group, the Organisation of Arab Armed Struggle, of Syrian, Lebanese and German rebels. He also formed a contact with East Germany's Stasi. At one stage, Romanian Securitate hired him to assassinate Romanian dissidents in France and destroy Radio Free Europe offices in Munich. With conditional support from the Iraqi regime and the death of Haddad, Carlos offered the services of his group to the PFLP and other groups.
The group did not perform its first acts until early in 1982, with a failed attack on a nuclear power station. When two of the group, including Magdalena Kopp, Carlos's wife, were arrested in Paris the group set off a number of bombs in retaliation against French targets. Operations in 1983 included attacks on the "Maison de France" in Berlin in August and two bombs on TGV services in December. These attacks led to pressure on European states that tolerated Ramírez Sánchez. For over two years he lived in Hungary, in Budapest's noble quarter the second district. His main go-between for some of his money-sources like Gaddhafi of Dr. Habbash was the friend of his sister Dietmar C. Sanchez was expelled from Hungary in late 1985 and was refused aid in Iraq, Libya and Cuba before he found limited support in Syria. He settled in Damascus with Kopp and their daughter Elba Rosa.
The Syrian government forced Ramírez Sánchez to remain inactive and he was soon no longer seen as a threat but rather a pathetic figure. However in 1990 the Iraqi government approached him and in September 1991 he was expelled from Syria and eventually found a temporary home in Jordan. He found better protection in Sudan and moved to Khartoum.
During his career, most of it during the Cold War, western accounts persistently claimed he was a KGB agent but the link is tenuous at best. It is now clear that he had no part in the Munich Massacre (the attack on Israeli athletes in Munich in 1972) or the 1976 hijacking of Air France Flight 193 to Entebbe. Some attacks may have been attached to him for lack of anyone else to claim the credit. His own boasts about probably nonexistent "missions" confuse the matter even more.

I don't know Louis. I think that they're pretty well linked by revolution, that might be his "special destiny" created by God to only make revolution, that's what Carlos has been doing all his life. Many people see acts of revolution as terrorism, and perhaps many revolutions require terror. Wheter I like this or not, the link between them seems pretty clear to me, not only Carlos is venezuelan, but he's also a revolutionary carrying the flag of marxism, even if Chavez hadn't wrote him the letter (one of various it seems) the connection between them is necessary. To Chavez any revolutionary traces back to Bolivar and his righteous fight.

Now a little thing I forgot of the letter because I missed his potencial significance, let's see:
"Tiempo de poder luchar por ideales y tiempo de no poder sino valorar la propia lucha… Tiempo de oportunidad, del fino olfato y del instinto al acecho para alcanzar el momento psicológico propicio en que Ariadna, investida de leyes, teja el hilo que permita salir del laberinto…"
This means: "Times to fight for ideals and times in wich we cannot do other thing than to value our own fight... Times of oportunity, fine sense of smell and of the instinct that stalks for the proper psicological moment in wich Ariadna, invested on law, will weave the thread that leads the way out of the maze..." What's the significance? Well we could see it as an involvement of Chavez in a potencial plot to get Carlos off of jail, but the part of "invested of law" clearly shows that he hopes for the judicial system to take that decision. Why this criptic style? Well ask Chavez (though I suppose it's to not generate an automatic international scandal), he does a lot of references to Bolivar and the final part, in addittion to being a reference to ancient greek mitology, is also a reference to a famous sentence of Bolivar, that's included on the letter: "¡Cómo podré salir yo de este laberinto…!" - "How could I get out of this maze...!".

[Louis VI the Fat]

I don't know Louis. In all honesty, I don't know either. There is a part of me that acknowledges that if I lived in South America in the 1970's and 80's, I would have been a marxist revolutionary terrorist myself. Strange but true. In that context, they were the ones who were right. The difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter is one of political persuasion indeed.

That Carlos and Chavez see themselves in a larger tradition doesn't discredit the entirity of Latin American revolutionary fervor. The reverse, that tradition a priori discrediting Chavez, is not true either.
They should each be valued on their own merits.
And the case for Carlos is not that strong. Like so many terrorists, he ended up murdering for the sake of it, indiscriminately. It does discredit Chavez that he still considers him a part of his social movement. Whatever one may think of Chavez, he should be more discriminate in choosing his friends.


The group did not perform its first acts until early in 1982, with a failed attack on a nuclear power station. When two of the group, including Magdalena Kopp, Carlos's wife, were arrested in Paris the group set off a number of bombs in retaliation against French targets. Operations in 1983 included attacks on the "Maison de France" in Berlin in August and two bombs on TGV services in December.

[Tribesman]

I don't care how confused and unintelligable his letter about the revolution is. Chaves concludes that he and this convicted terrorist are part of one and the same movement.
Yep , Carlos may be a murdering terorist bastard , but then again so was De Gaulle and Churchill ...or a multitude of others .
So whats the diference ? some win and write history , others lose and get history written about them .

Now that in no way condones the actions taken , but it does bring forth the good old biblical story about casting stones .
In the words of our Lord , when faced with the sinless casting rocks.

Mother you really show me up sometimes

[Louis VI the Fat]

[Yep , Carlos may be a murdering terorist bastard , but then again so was De Gaulle and Churchill ...or a multitude of others .
So whats the diference ?So was Hitler. Now, would you consider Churchill to be as evil as Hitler. Or can we make a distinction, a hierarchy?

I do not have a Manichean, absolute dichotomy between good and evil - the world is more complicated than that. But extreme moral relativism leads to nothing either.

Sometimes, a murderer is a murderer.

[Tribesman]

Sometimes, a murderer is a murderer.
Whats with the "sometimes" ?
A murderer is a murderer is it not ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I mean that sometimes one man's murderer can be another man's freedom fighter.

Take for example that famous My Lai picture in another thread. What is the guy pulling the trigger? A cold blooded murderer? A man avenging the murder of his family? Sometimes, there is more to a story. And sometimes, a murderer is just a murderer.

And the case for Carlos is not that strong. Like so many terrorists, he ended up murdering for the sake of it, indiscriminately.

[Tribesman]

Take for example that famous My Lai picture in another thread. What is the guy pulling the trigger? A cold blooded murderer? A man avenging the murder of his family? Sometimes, there is more to a story. And sometimes, a murderer is just a murdere
That wasn't mai Laiwas it , in the picture .That was an officer just saying you are guilty it is time that your brains splashed across the street , and the dumbas done it in front of the cameras because he knew "it was right".
Now forgive me if I am wrong (but I ain'y gonna claim that ot was an NVA colonel doing the murder~;) ), but was that picture taken from a reel , not just an individual picture .
It marked a turning point , as that picture , together with napalmed kids bbrought forward to the public the question"what the hell are we fighting for"
Now with Kissingers papers released saying that the US didn't give a **** about a communist takeover and uniication of Vietnam then perhaps we can ask Kafir and Gawain(though I think Gawains vietnam experience was confined to loading films inOkinawa) what they think their and their friemds sacrifice was worth , and who were the terrorists , who were the murderers , and who were the freedom fighters

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I agree with Tachi' that there are some parallels between Chavez and F.D. Roosevelt.

I would also point out that I am not truly a fan of a number of the long-term consequences raised by FDR's policies. It is all too easy for a government temporary emergency program to become immortal -- and become more of a bane than a boon.

They still haven't rescinded the federal phone excise tax, a 3% tax on the rich designed to fund the Spanish American War. Too much that government does can take on a life of its own.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Just read over the thread, and spotted this gem:


You can't judge a government by what it does in the short term.

Anyone guess whom that's from? Our friend Tachikaze.

Remember that statement during the next round of Bush bashing, friend. :laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Even so, that means Tachikaze's grandchildren can have a ball when they go on another round of Bush bashing.

Like when their monthly payment to the Chinese is due.

[Redleg]

My statement was kind of amibiguous, so I don't know who you think might be pointing something other than a gun at me, but Richard Gere does carry around a lot of bratwurst (to feed his ferrets) so maybe it wasn't a gun.

If it was Richard Gere it wasn't bratwurst or a gun... :oops: :laugh4:

[solypsist]

well this pretty much killed my approach: Chavez: Carlos the Jackal 'a good friend'
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060602/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_carlos_the_jackal