Warhammer 40K TT

[Lehesu]

I have a question for those who have played or still play the Warhammer 40K tabletop game. How feasible is it to play the game without the miniatures if you have the game manual and the codexes for the armies you wish to play? I am interested in the game, but have no intention of spending hundreds of dollars on minis and paint. With Classic Battletech, I can play online with a computer freeware, but as I understand it, Games Workshop discourages such programs because they derive most of their income from minis.

[Keba]

Playing without miniatures is robbing the vast majority of experience, the most entertaining part is the painting ... playing is mostly used to show off the stuff you've painted.

As far as the Classic Battletech you mention (I admit that I have no idea what that is, but ...), I'd recommend that you ignore the ... 'discouragement', unless it is of a legal nature, in which case you can ignore it with a sort of guilty pleasure, after all, you know the saying about forbidden fruit.

I mainly got into the game just for the miniatures and painting, and it's loads of fun. I've no intention of playing a game soon, although I have the rulebooks (honestly, I would have to read them again, just to know how the hell the whole thing works, since I forgot).

Just to say, the cost turned me away initially, as well. That is, until I decided to do it. Given the amount of time that goes into each model (and I mean each, every single infatryman), the cost is fairly minor, when compared to the amount of time you spend painintg, thinking and desigining concepts.

[drone]

I suppose it would be possible to play without the miniatures, but I believe the painting and minis are all part of the hobby. I can understand your trepidation about getting sucked into buying the minis, they are expensive, and it can take a very long time to paint up armies.

If you do get into minis and painting, here is my advice. Buy your starter set (basic army) and get painting. From then on, only allow yourself to buy a mini for every one that you finish. Keep your unpainted figurine backlog to a minimum. Otherwise, you end up in my situation. I don't even play anymore but I've got tons of bare metal sitting in cases. :shame:

GW will not allow a straight up computer version of the game, although Dawn of War, Mark of Chaos, Dark Omen, etc. use their IP/backstory/fluff.

[Lehesu]

I enjoy war games. Minis and spending money are not so much my thing. Classic Battletech is a futurusic tactical war game that has a line of minis. However, I enjoy playing more than just staring at the minis. Then again, CBT was always first and foremost a hex-game, with mini rules added later.

Guess what I am asking is: Does Warhammer 40K have enough depth as a game alone to be entertaining, or does the mini side of it represent a good deal of the "fun" factor?

EDIT: Oh, and the owners of the CBT actually tacitly support the freeware...they have a forum for matching games and they don't have a problem with it. Part of it might be that they don't actually make and sell the minis...that is done by a third-party company under license.

[drone]

To me, the painting, modelling, and backstory were a large part of the enjoyment. I'm not very familiar with the latest editions of the game (I played Revs 1 and 2, I think they are up to Rev 4 now), so I'm not really in a position to recommend the game on it's technical merits. Battletech has the advantage of being a game first, whereas I always got the feeling that Warhammer was a hobby first.

[Zalmoxis]

Personally I was gonna get into the 40k game, but spending a good deal of money for a small army was not going to happen. I still skimmed through some of the backstory, and I would have probably had some fun with painting, so maybe in a couple of years when I gather money.

[econ21]

It's a pretty deep game - well especially Warhammer Fantasy, where you have flanking and manouvre is more constrained. But I don't think it would stack up without the minatures. Computer games - especially Total War - can give you much more spectacle than pushing your own counters ever could, plus the computer takes care of all the rules, provides an AI, is much faster paced and gives more variety.

Warhammer only really comes into its own when you introduce the minatures. It's hard to explain, but there is something really neat about gradually collecting an army. You optimise it, customise it, design it etc. Yes, it's expensive but a few hundred pounds over a year is not that excessive for a hobby. And with 40k you can start rather small. You have to build up to it - splurging on an entire army and being forced to paint it is too daunting.

The other aspect of Warhammer is the social aspect. If you got in with a good group of mates or made friends at a club, it would give you something that computing typically does not.

[Lehesu]

Hmmm. I would have to consider whether or not to get into this. I like 40K for it's fluff, and the units were pretty cool in Dawn of War. Understanding that PC games abstract the rules a bit, I was interested in playing the game in the orginal form. Perhaps I will try the Battle for Maccrage set thingy and see if I like it enough to keep biting at the bait.

[econ21]

Reading battle reports would be an excellent way of seeing whether it is for you. You should be able to find some on line, plus the magazine White Dwarf usually comes with them. You'll find that players often work to a very high standard (chess-like) of strategy and also get very into the fluff.

GW have rather good forums on their own website plus there is the Warhammer forum. I would particularly look out for anything by BarondeSade - he is exemplary both at the strategic and literary aspects of battle reports. Here's an example:

http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=16351&sid=efd7d16caa7003e774d7c363f96ee95e

I realise I keep pushing you towards Fantasy rather than 40k, but they are very similar. Fantasy plays more like Total War with proper ranked units and pitch battles, 40k feels more like a skirmish game like Dawn of War.

The battle of Macraggae starter set is very good value and gives you all the rules, so I would get it - at least, if you have any interest in starting a Marine or Tyrannid army. If your eye is on another army, it's not such a shoe in.

[Keba]

I realise I keep pushing you towards Fantasy rather than 40k, but they are very similar. Fantasy plays more like Total War with proper ranked units and pitch battles, 40k feels more like a skirmish game like Dawn of War.

Unless you are playing an Imperial Guard army, with all those platoons, batallions and ... when you see a 1500 point Imperial Guard army ... all those tanks and troops ... :eeeek:

[Lehesu]

Econ21, I think I am going to play it this way. To start, just buy Master Rules and the Codices for armies that I want to play. No minis. If the game proves itself as a game, and not just an excuse to use minis, than minis might follow. I need to know: Will I be able to play a game with just the rulebook and codices, substituting place markers for units?

[econ21]

I need to know: Will I be able to play a game with just the rulebook and codices, substituting place markers for units?

Yes, I don't see a problem. The only issue would be the terrain and 3D aspects (e.g. if you had a multistory building).

For the place markers, I would recommend buying a bag of 40K round bases, so you can see the standard footprint of the units.

[Abokasee]

Also may note unlike DoW,Mark of choas (coming out in about september, I dont know which one but you'll know when ya see it?:2thumbsup: ) will have the abilility to fully custimize you army by giving different types swords and armour, well thats what hear anyway

also unlike the TT fanatasy their will no need for srict formations in MoC since havle the time the only a good distance from fighting is aritally and other rangend things

(I wonder if Hell Canon will be in since that can charge into combat on its own)

[Papewaio]

Most beginners proxy for awhile and then build up their armies.

If you want a cheap set of minatures just get 1/72 scale army men in boxes ... you should be able to get them a lot cheaper then GW prices... of course it will only be good for friendly matches... but it would be good for getting used to the rules.