Crossbow

[soibean]

Whats the story with this thing?
I had thought it came about in the Medieval ages and thats when the pope tried to outlaw, but from what I remember with BI the roman armies of the west have a unit who uses a weapon that is strikingly similar to a crossbow

I also just watched the King Arthur movie, and while I understand its not historically accurate, once again the crossbow is present during the Romanic Age.

Was it around then? If so, was it as powerful as its feared counterpart of the medieval ages?

[Aenlic]

The crossbow was invented sometime in the 4th century BCE in China. The first recorded use in battle was at the battle of Ma-Ling in 341 BCE. Earliest found crossbow artifact was from the tomb of Yu Wang, which contained a bronze locking mecahnism for a crossbow. In 100 CE, Heron of Alexandria writes about the gastraphetes or belly-bow which was essentially a composite bow attached to a stock with a slider - a modern crossbow in almost all details. Vegetius mentions crossbows in387 CE in De re Militaria. In medieval Europe, the Normans brought the crossbow to England. Anna Comnena describes Norman crossbows in 1096 in her writings. And finally, the crossbow was outlawed for use by Christians in 1139 at the Second Lateran Council.

The early crossbows developed over time; but they were essentially the same as the medieval crossbows. They really came into their own in the early 14th century when the steel lath (the bow part of a crossbow) was first used, first recorded use of a steel lath was in 1314 CE.

(the above was gleaned from W. F. Paterson's Guide to the Crossbow (http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=2750215&wauth=W%2E%20F%2E%20Paterson&ptit=A%20guide%20to%20the%20crossbow&pauth=Paterson%2C%20W%2E%20F%2E%2C%20and%20Credland%2C%20Arthur%20G%2E%2C%20and%20Society%20of%20Arc her%2DAntiquaries&pisbn=&pqty=1&pqtynew=0&pbest=25%2E86&matches=1&qsort=r&cm_re=works*listing*title),1990) and obtained from this great website devoted to the crossbow - World Crossbow Shooting Association (http://www.worldcrossbow.com/history.html) (history of the crossbow section)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Wasn't the crossbow only outlawed for use by Catholics against Catholics?

I believe it was perfectly legal for use against heretics, Orthodox Christians and Muslims, oh and the occasional Pagan.

[Avicenna]

It was firs tused in China. However, I think the crossbow(s) you saw in King Arthur were more likely to be an invention of Archimedes. Military weapons and tactics varied a lot from China to Britain, and I doubt that it would be the Chinese crossbow that's used there.

Uesugi: what about Catholics v Protestants?

[cunctator]

Additionaly the roman army used another kind of a similar hand held weapon, the torsion powered manubalista, also technically it was no crossbow.

http://www.geocities.com/overyom/Manu5.jpg

[Aenlic]

You are correct, Uesugi. I believe the 2nd Lateran Council specifically worded it as outlawing the use of the crossbow against Christians, although perhaps it was Catholics even more specifically. At the time of the 2nd Lateran Council, there were no Protestants, of course. Christians at the time were either Catholics, Orthodox (of various patriarchates like the Armenian, Greek and Russian, etc.) or outlawed heretical sects not considered Christian by the church. The Normans and others used the crossbow in the Crusades.

Oh, looking I found a site (http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/docs/ECUM10.htm) with a translation from the Latin of the original canons of the 2nd Lateran Council.

Apparently the prohibition wasn't just crossbows, but any archers at all.

"29. We prohibit under anathema that murderous art of crossbowmen and archers, which is hateful to God, to be employed against Christians and Catholics from now on."

Interestingly, the canons of this Council also include the prohibition against jousting! This included the penalty that if a knight dies in a tournament he would be denied a Christian burial.

"14. We entirely forbid, moreover, those abominable jousts and tournaments in which knights come together by agreement and rashly engage in showing off their physical prowess and daring, and which often result in human deaths and danger to souls. If any of them dies on these occasions, although penance and viaticum are not to be denied him when he requests them, he is to be deprived of a church burial."

[soibean]

so the weapon that the WRE uses in BI is a handhelddevice and not a crossbow

[Aenlic]

It could be either. There was the manubalista as shown in the overly large pic above, which is a handheld balista rather than a crossbow; but there was also the gastraphetes or belly-bow which was a true crossbow - a bow turned horizontal and attacked to a stock with a slider to guide the bolt. I expect that the crossbow Vegetius writes about in De re Militaria in 387 was the second style. If so, then yes, those would be real crossbows by the time of the game in BI.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Uesugi: what about Catholics v Protestants?


Hmmm I'd have thought that Protestants would count as heretics, at least back then anyway. If they were not counted as heretics than I believe they were also eligible.

I believe they basically only made it illegal for Roman Catholics to use against other Roman Catholics iirc.

[Aenlic]

Hmmm I'd have thought that Protestants would count as heretics, at least back then anyway. If they were not counted as heretics than I believe they were also eligible.

I believe they basically only made it illegal for Roman Catholics to use against other Roman Catholics iirc.

Protestants didn't exist as such in the 12th century, when the edict was issued. The Protestant Reformation, of whichever sect, is generally considered to have begun with Luther's 95 Theses, which he wrote in the early 16th century, almost 400 years after the 2nd Lateran Council edict outlawing the use of crossbows against Christians. There were non-Catholic Christian sects at the time, certainly - the Orthodox churches, the Cathars, the Bogomils and others; but none of the could be called Protestants. And the edict itself clearly says Catholics and Christians, implying all Christians, except those considered heretics, such as the Cathars/Albigensians and Bogomils and others.

[cunctator]

Vegetius mentions both types of weapons, the manuballista and the arcuballista (bow- ballista), a proper crossbow.


Vegetius De Re Militari Book II/15


..., erant item sagittarii cum cassidibus catafractis et gladiis, sagittis et arcubus, erant funditores, qui ad fundas uel fustibalos lapides iaciebant, erant tragularii, qui ad manuballistas uel arcuballistas dirigebant sagittas.


This was also the post of the archers who had helmets, cuirasses, swords, bows and arrows; of the slingers who threw stones with the common sling or with the fustibalus; and of the tragularii who annoyed the enemy with arrows from the manubalistae or arcubalistae.

[Aenlic]

Thanks, Cunctator. I don't have a copy of De Re Militaria, and it has been a good 20 years since I read it. As I said way up above somewhere, the "crossbows" in BI could be either.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Ah, thanks for clarifying Aenlic.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Back to China, where there was a new type of arrow invented during the T'ang dynasty to be used with the crossbow for maximum armour penetrating value. This made wearing chainmail armour pointless, since the arrow would go right through it - now they had to use plate armour, and so... the early beginings of the invention of the harnass?

[Aenlic]

I'm not clear on your meaning, Tellos. Harness of what kind?

[Homo Sapiens]

In 100 CE, Heron of Alexandria writes about the gastraphetes or belly-bow which was essentially a composite bow attached to a stock with a slider - a modern crossbow in almost all details.

Wow, I ha no idea the gastrophetes was a real weapon! All this time I had been assuming it had been made up by Ensemble Studios for their game Age of Mythology.

[Watchman]

As for that Papal ban on crossbows and archers, as you might well imagine it tended to be observed about as faithfully and diligently as the one(s) on tournaments and jousting. Battlefield expediency had a tendency to trump such declarations, and three guesses how willing people like urban militias were to listen in the first place...

[Subedei]

Didn`t the Pope hire them Genuese or other crossbow mercenaries during wars against the German/Roman Holy Empire? I really don`t know, but I would imagine....

[Watchman]

There were times there were no less than three Popes, I think. And others when the holder of the office was trying to call Crusades on his assorted enemies in Italy. 'Course, there was also the Avignon period when the Pope was pretty much the hostage of the French crown. And I know Papal troops sent in as sort-of peacekeepers and the Teutonic Knights very nearly came to blows over disagreements about the treatment of the Baltic pagans...

Nevermind now that the fact alone that the bans on clerical marriage and tournaments AFAIK were re-issued several times tells volumes of just how much effect they had.

Let's just say that the Papal authority and prestige tended to on the average be a fair bit less than the Popes would have liked.