Is this Iraq's My Lai?

[InsaneApache]

I know it's easy for us sat in front of our PCs to pontificate on these things, but it does seem as this did get out of control.


As Iman tells it, US marines burst into her house 15 minutes after the bomb destroyed the Humvee, apparently looking for insurgents. They shouted at her father. Then a grenade was thrown into her grandparents’ room. She saw her mother hit by shrapnel. Her aunt grabbed a baby and ran from the house.

Soldiers opened fire inside the living room, where most of the family were gathered. Her uncle Rashid came downstairs, saw what was happening, then fled outside, where he was pursued by Marines and shot.

“Everybody who was in the house was killed by the Americans except my brother Abdul-Rahman and me,” Iman said. “We were too scared to move and tried to hide under a pillow. I was hit by shrapnel in my leg. For two hours we didn’t dare to move. My family didn’t die immediately. We could hear them groaning.”


“It’s a disaster,” said Tareq al-Hashemi, Iraq’s Sunni Vice-President, who dislikes the occupation but does not want US troops to leave until the country is stable. “They are provoking all Iraqis, especially from the Arab Sunni community. They are pushing them to join the national resistance and to fight . . . Maybe some of them feel sympathetic to al-Qaeda now,” he told The Times.

source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2199287,00.html)

If this is indeed true, then it is a disaster for the coalition in Iraq. This can only serve to fuel hatred for the USA and the west.

[Tribesman]

Come on Apache , the full report hasn't been released yet .
Anyway , with that aside , its the civilians own fault , they chose to live near a terrorist attack ,they bought it on themselves , they had the option of living in a different house in a different country didn't they .

[Dâriûsh]

Right now the truth about what happened in al-Haditha is negligible. Most people have already made up their minds.

[Banquo's Ghost]

If this is indeed true, then it is a disaster for the coalition in Iraq. This can only serve to fuel hatred for the USA and the west.

And what's new? Both sides are becoming increasingly brutalised by this conflict, increasingly careless of people's lives. The killing of civilians has been woefully under-reported by the US and UK media, as if they are somehow irrelevant.

No, this is not Iraq's My Lai, since no-one seems to care as much as they did then.

[Major Robert Dump]

Good luck finding an American under 20 who knows or will know about that

But no, not even close. More people died then and you had American soldiers pointing guns at each other, and thats pretty fekked up. I'm not gonna comment any more, other than to say if this turns to be true I hope military justice serves its purpose, with a vengeance.

[Major Robert Dump]

And what's new? Both sides are becoming increasingly brutalised by this conflict, increasingly careless of people's lives. The killing of civilians has been woefully under-reported by the US and UK media, as if they are somehow irrelevant.

No, this is not Iraq's My Lai, since no-one seems to care as much as they did then.


People still care, particularly Americans. We don't ignore stuff like this if we find out about it. The investigation isn't done yet, beleive me, we are watching

[Divinus Arma]

As I said before, and as a U.S. Marine myself, if theses Marines are guilty of this crime, then each should be executed. And as soon as possible.

But first we need an open and fair hearing. Unfortunately, they will not recieve that under the U.S. military justice system. The "Jury" consists of senior enlisted and officers; not exactly peers and certainly not without prejudice.

[Hurin_Rules]

But first we need an open and fair hearing. Unfortunately, they will not recieve that under the U.S. military justice system. The "Jury" consists of senior enlisted and officers; not exactly peers and certainly not without prejudice.

Yow, for once I agree completely with you DA.

It does seem that this incident did indeed happen in the way it is being portrayed: cold blooded murder. Children included. Now, we have to wait for all the evidence comes out, but the people who were briefed by the military, like John Murtha (a veteran and well-respected by many on both sides), said it was just as bad, if not worse, than it had been reported:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12998125/

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? FoxNews is not saying a word: http://www.foxnews.com/

[Divinus Arma]

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? FoxNews is not saying a word: http://www.foxnews.com/

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? Al Jazeera is not saying a word: http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? CNN is not saying a word: http://www.cnn.com/

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? The BBC is not saying a word: http://news.bbc.co.uk/

None of them have anything on their home page at the moment.

ABC is all over it: http://abcnews.go.com/
CBS is all over it: http://www.cbsnews.com/
NBC is all over it: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
Drudge is all over it: http://www.drudgereport.com/


And I'm sure that every site has a story on it somewhere and that it was on their home page at one point or another. Unless of course Fox News and Al Jazeera share the same views on U.S. Foreign Policy in Iraq?

[Strike For The South]

https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8036/knifedtet0xs.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=knifedtet0xs.jpg) Turning point anyone?

[Divinus Arma]

That is actually a pic of a North Vietnamese guy doing the execution. And no, this isn't a turning point, unless you want it to be for you. And if your are a liberal.

[Strike For The South]

I was under the impression that the pic above was "one of ours killing one of theres" It was taken during the tet offensive and was used to galvanize support for the hippies drug addicts and other undieriebles who made up the anti-war movement. The question is no longer was it right that point has been moot since the boots hit the ground and if you are still stuck on that you are a moron (not you peps in genral) the question now is how long are we going to stay

[InsaneApache]

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? Al Jazeera is not saying a word: http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? CNN is not saying a word: http://www.cnn.com/

One of the more telling (though perhaps not unexpected) things? The BBC is not saying a word: http://news.bbc.co.uk/

None of them have anything on their home page at the moment.

ABC is all over it: http://abcnews.go.com/
CBS is all over it: http://www.cbsnews.com/
NBC is all over it: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/
Drudge is all over it: http://www.drudgereport.com/


And I'm sure that every site has a story on it somewhere and that it was on their home page at one point or another. Unless of course Fox News and Al Jazeera share the same views on U.S. Foreign Policy in Iraq?

Sorry my USMC friend, you are erroneous.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5022380.stm

[Ser Clegane]

I was under the impression that the pic above was "one of ours killing one of theres" It was taken during the tet offensive

You are correct - the picture shows the execution of a Vietcong at the hands of Vietnam's police chief in Saigon

[InsaneApache]

That is actually a pic of a North Vietnamese guy doing the execution. And no, this isn't a turning point, unless you want it to be for you. And if your are a liberal.

and again you are mistaken, the pic is of a south Vietnamese colonel execting a presumed insurgent.

Sorry, but do try to keep up. (It only happened 40 years ago...jeez)

SC beat me to it....still very sad

[Redleg]

You are correct - the picture shows the execution of a Vietcong at the hands of Vietnam's police chief in Saigon

Now just for the historical note- who was the victim in the photo?




I know who the individual is, and why he was shot. Not condoning the summary execution - but wanting to see how much is actually known,

From the Photojournalist who took the picture

[quote]Drawn by gunfire, Adams and an NBC film crew watched South Vietnamese soldiers bring a handcuffed Viet Cong captive to a street corner, where they assumed he would be interrogated. Instead, South Vietnam's police chief, Lt. Col. Nguyen Ngoc Loan, strode up, wordlessly drew a pistol and shot the man in the head.

Adams caught the instant of death in a photo that made front pages around the world. It would became one of the Vietnam's War's most indelible images, shocking the American public and used by critics to belie official claims that the war was being won.

In later years, Adams found himself so defined and haunted by the picture that he would not display it at his studio. He also felt it unfairly maligned Loan, who lived in Virginia after the war and died in 1989.

"The guy was a hero," Adams said, recalling Loan's explanation that the man he executed was a Viet Cong captain, responsible for murdering the family of Loan's closest aide a few hours earlier.

"Sometimes a picture can be misleading because it does not tell the whole story," Adams said in an interview for a 1972 AP photo book. "I don't say what he did was right, but he was fighting a war and he was up against some pretty bad people."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1220763/posts

[InsaneApache]

:bow: Redleg.

[Divinus Arma]

Sorry my USMC friend, you are erroneous.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5022380.stm

As I said NONE OF THEM HAVE ANYTHING ON THEIR HOME PAGE AT THE MOMENT.

And BBC still doesn't. http://news.bbc.co.uk/

I Also said: And I'm sure that every site has a story on it somewhere and that it was on their home page at one point or another.




As for the VC photo, well if I am wrong then I am wrong. I thought it was a VC regular executing a Southern vietnamese. I stand corrected on that.

[Dâriûsh]

Aljazeera reported it back in March. ~;p


:ahh:

[InsaneApache]

So, let me get this straight, if it's not on the homepage, then it's irrelevant? :inquisitive:

And please don't shout, I'm not in your much vaunted USMC :no:

[Divinus Arma]

Jesus Christ. Do even read your own thread? I was responding to Hurin Rules who said that Fox News is silent on the issue because nothing is on the home page.

This is ridiculous. Read the damn thread over and then see if you can figure out at all what the hell I'm trying to say.

Nobody ever said "if it's not on the homepage, then it's irrelevant", but Hurin Rules inferred it.

Do you get it now? I cannot for the life of me see how this can be confusing.

[InsaneApache]

In that case I apologise and I stand corrected,I had assumed that you were referring to me.

However where it is reported is irrelevant. More to the fact is that it happened.

[KafirChobee]

https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8036/knifedtet0xs.th.jpg (https://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=knifedtet0xs.jpg) Turning point anyone?

First off, thanks Redleg for setting that photo right - the man may not have been politically correct in his action, but he was absolutely human in it. In that he was correct. God help the SOB that harms my family, or a friends.

As far as a turning point? Ladys and gents, the worm turned long ago concerning Americans and support for the Iraq incursion - but, they believe in our troops. Most just want them home now. Period.

What Americans (that haven't stood on the wall) don't grasp is that soldiers are humanbeings - trained to kill. These humanbeings, however, tend to get very angry when they lose one of their own, and even worse they some times include the innocent in their vendettas to justify the injustice (casualties) perpetrated by people that look just like the innocents they murder.

Regardless, It doesnot create a justification for such an action, or even excuse it. It does raise into question the leadership and those that gave such a person that type of power. What did they miss in the man's character? Did they in fact miss anything at all .... simply that he is human, and any humanbeing can be stressed to the breaking point that if they ain't with us - they be against us. Ergo, kill 'em all. Let us look also on how many tours the lad has had there before condeming him to life imprisonment or a fireing squad. We been there for 3 years and some men are already on their 3rd tours. That is just wrong.

My Lai, created by a Colonel and settled by a LT. The Col. walked and the LT took the brunt for following orders. I am not a Calley fan. However, I can identify. The hamlet was dirty (weapons were found), it had killed Americans, and the dips walking in there (Calley's boys) had just lost a few in the jungle. What busted my chops about it was that Calley killed kids and women. Personally, had he taken all the men aside (after finding the weapons cache) and drilled them, then shot them if they had not answered ... fine. But, Calley didn't do that. Instead he listened to his Col. - "round'em up and shoot 'em". Colonel was never charged. Calley was wrong for following an illegal order (as were the soldiers at Abu Ghraib ... Bush still can't pronounce it... what a duphas), and he should still be in jail for his actions. Lol.

There is absolutely no comparrison to My Lai. If there ever is, the perpetrator will become an American hero for some ... just as Calley is today. After all, he got a Presidential pardon. :wall:

[Divinus Arma]

In that case I apologise and I stand corrected,I had assumed that you were referring to me.

:balloon2: All is well. :bow:


However where it is reported is irrelevant. More to the fact is that it happened.

I agree entirely. That's why I pointed out the flaw in Hurin_Rules' logic, just as he would if I posted a brainfart myself. And why haven't you replied Hurin? In your own words: "I'll take the silence as a win".

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Well, as Div said before, if it actually happened, the soldiers involved should be executed. It is unacceptable, and downright wrong for such things to happen. Now, while I am still a bit sceptical about whether it did happen or not, I do think it should be investigated. The words of an Iraqi civilian alone may not be the best thing to go by, we've seen how some of them feel about soldiers.

But does this denote that the war is wrong and we should leave immediatly? No. We are in Iraq doing good things, and yeah, sometimes some soldiers get out of hand. That's bad, and it should be handled just as if it was one of the enemy soldiers doing the same thing. But it doesn't mean we should leave the country, just like My Lai didn't mean we should have left Vietnam.

However, is this Iraq's My Lai? No. My Lai was a massacre in it's truest form, committed by a large number of American troops resulting in about 504 civilain dead. This atrocity, while no less atrocious, was much smaller on scale, and will not be as easily covered up. Will it have similar effects, and will our enemies use it against us as the North used My Lai? I fear so.

[Hurin_Rules]

I agree entirely. That's why I pointed out the flaw in Hurin_Rules' logic, just as he would if I posted a brainfart myself. And why haven't you replied Hurin? In your own words: "I'll take the silence as a win".

Woah, woah, woah, big guy, hold your horses there.

Firstly, I didn't respond because my book manuscript is due at the publishers in a little over a week, and I've been working 12-14 hour days for the last month. I posted my original post less than 19 hours ago. Sheesh.

Secondly, I think my point is still valid: FoxNews is known to, shall we say, de-prioritize stories that would look bad for the US military. I was not at all implying the story wasn't important (and in fact you'll note that I was essentially agreeing with you in my post, for God's sake!). I was implying that the fact that it was being reported by the more liberal US media, but not Foxnews, suggests its pretty bad for the US military. And that, I think, is pretty clear.

And sorry, both the BBC and CNN were reporting on this, even if you didn't see it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5022380.stm

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

[Divinus Arma]

Woah, woah, woah, big guy, hold your horses there.

Firstly, I didn't respond because my book manuscript is due at the publishers in a little over a week, and I've been working 12-14 hour days for the last month. I posted my original post less than 19 hours ago. Sheesh.

Secondly, I think my point is still valid: FoxNews is known to, shall we say, de-prioritize stories that would look bad for the US military. I was not at all implying the story wasn't important (and in fact you'll note that I was essentially agreeing with you in my post, for God's sake!). I was implying that the fact that it was being reported by the more liberal US media, but not Foxnews, suggests its pretty bad for the US military. And that, I think, is pretty clear.

And sorry, both the BBC and CNN were reporting on this, even if you didn't see it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5022380.stm

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

argggh! Well OF COURSE they have stories on it! But at the time you posted this it was not ON ANYBODY'S HOMEPAGE from the groups I had listed. You demonized Foxnews when even Al JAzeera didn't have it on their homepage.

Fox reported on it: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188526,00.html

All I'm saying, "big guy", is that you are engaign circular reasoning instead of logic. "Foxnews doesn't have the Massacre story on its homepage today, therefore they are a propoganda machine". I mean, come on bro, this is just silliness!

[Hurin_Rules]

Fox reported on it: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188526,00.html



You'll note that article dates from May 20th, and I don't see any updates since; moreover, at the time I looked, it was clearly off their front page.

Think we'll just have to disagree on that one.

[x-dANGEr]

Come on Apache , the full report hasn't been released yet .
Anyway , with that aside , its the civilians own fault , they chose to live near a terrorist attack ,they bought it on themselves , they had the option of living in a different house in a different country didn't they .
You must be kidding!!!

@DA: Man, your tone is really heavy.. Cool down eh!

@Hurin: I think most of the foreign media (Non-arab/muslim) try to tone down things a bit for their government. Do you actually entrust and believe the reported deaths on both the US side and the Iraqis side in Iraq? And, is the media's camera giving the whole image? It maybe that their abilities is limited, due to the 'captivity' events, but, why push the balance to the other sides favor?

[Brenus]

Good (or bad, depending on your point of view…) I heard about this on Euronews this morning….

[orangat]

In another incident, several marines confessed planting evidence - a shovel to cover up an execution.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5431238&ft=1&f=1001
http://www.rense.com/general70/trrio.htm

"The most shocking revelation in the Newsnight film concerned the carrying of shovels and AK-47 rifles on US patrol vehicles - these were regularly dumped beside bodies to give the impression that they had been planting roadside bombs. Casey explained the orders he had been given:

"'Keep shovels on the truck and an AK, and if you see anybody out here at night on the roads, shoot them. Shoot them, and if they weren't doing anything, throw a shovel off.' At that time when we first got down there, you could basically kill whoever you wanted - it was that easy... "

[rotorgun]

While this is definately an indicator that the American soldiers in Iraq are beginning to feel frustrated by the random attacks of the insurgents and are, at least in the case of this Marine squad, willing to consider reprisals should come as no surprise. This is the case in every war of this nature from the dawn of man. More of these "atrocities" will probably take place as American policies fail to safeguard the troops. As to it being a case of another My Lai, I would say no. The numbers involved were nowhere near the same, and as others have mentioned, there seems to be little evidence of direct orders by the chain of command for such actions. In the My Lai incident, the infantry company involved was on a deliberate "search and destroy" mission where the orders had become blurred to include the killing of civilians. This current incident appears to be a simple case of reprisal by those who were attacked. Regretable though it is, I am afraid that it is an indicator of morale beginning to break for the frontline guys. I can't say that I blame them either. Perhaps a few of the top politicians and generals should go on these types of operations with the troops. It would open their eyes to the realities of their so-called "liberation" of the Iraqi people.

For those interested, check out this article about My Lai.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/my_lai.html

PS: Thanks to Orangat for the interesting articles. This Casey fellow, was he one of the soldiers implicated in the attacks?

PPS: Don't bother, I just reread the article more closley and see that he was not.

[Redleg]

Breaking news on this event is coming out now also.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060531/ts_nm/iraq_usa_haditha_dc


U.S. military officials say the killing of 24 civilians in the Iraqi town of Haditha in November appears to have been an unprovoked attack by U.S. Marines, after an investigation found the victims died of gunshot wounds, The New York Times reported on Wednesday.

The findings of the investigation contradicted Marines' claims that the civilians were victims of a roadside bomb, the newspaper said.


Now will it result in a military trail of the individuals who conducted the act?

[PanzerJaeger]

Brutality can be an effective tool against an unwilling occupied populace. Of course this type of clumsy execution will most likely have the opposite effect, emboldening the iraqis instead of scaring them into submission. Executions should only be used in a cold and calculated manner that has a greater effect than simply the deaths of those being executed. It seems these marines killed out of anger or some other emotion, without any other goal other than to kill.



As I said before, and as a U.S. Marine myself, if theses Marines are guilty of this crime, then each should be executed. And as soon as possible.

Never. 100 iraqis are not worth one American life.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Never. 100 iraqis are not worth one American life.

You should be ashamed. :shame:

[The_Emperor]

Sickening stuff from Troops that are meant to be "Liberating" and "Helping" the people of Iraq.

So we have indescriminate killing of civillians, men, women and children to get at rebels and insurgents...
Last I checked that was Saddam's trademark and NOT ours.

[Goofball]

Never. 100 iraqis are not worth one American life.

Ironic that you say that, since the most highly touted justification for the war that conservatives try to sell the rest of us is "freedom for the Iraqi people."

[Tribesman]

Brutality can be an effective tool against an unwilling occupied populace. Of course this type of clumsy execution will most likely have the opposite effect, emboldening the iraqis instead of scaring them into submission. Executions should only be used in a cold and calculated manner that has a greater effect than simply the deaths of those being executed. It seems these marines killed out of anger or some other emotion, without any other goal other than to kill.

Is that a speech from Himmler ?
100 iraqis are not worth one American life.
Ah .....the old sub human philosophies of the glorious past .

[Watchman]

I knew I didn't like PJ or his views, but this has to be a record.

On the same vein, I don't consider the life of any soldier serving voluntarily and in full possession of his (or her) mental faculties to be worth all that much compared to the hapless civilian who rarely has much choice over whether his or her life is in danger, and definitely doesn't get paid for it.
So there.

Anyway, if it is as the accounts thus far have claimed, I can't say I'm too surprised. It'd match pretty much perfectly from what I know of the psychologies of guerilla warfare, and what I've been told of the general grade of manpower the US have in Iraq. Namely, young and largely ill-educated, ignorant men. If the rank-and-file soldiery over here, in the land of sterling public education and mandatory military service, are on the average idiots you'd actually rather not have armed in a crisis situation, I can only imagine what the statistical average in the US military is like given the backgrounds involved...

This sort of crap is also just the kind of stuff that seriously undermines the occupier's position. Not that US troops hadn't done stupid stunts before; I've read that one upstart cleric's (don't recall the name right now) little revolt a while back was triggered by an idiot helo jock trying to show off and knocking over a sacred flag or something along those lines. But where there's smoke there's fire, and one gets a sneaking suspicion this isn't necessarily the only such ugly 'incident' the military's been sitting on - frustration and impotent rage hardly seem like sentiments confined to a single small unit in the circumstances, now do they ?

[rotorgun]

Brutality can be an effective tool against an unwilling occupied populace. Of course this type of clumsy execution will most likely have the opposite effect, emboldening the iraqis instead of scaring them into submission. Executions should only be used in a cold and calculated manner that has a greater effect than simply the deaths of those being executed. It seems these marines killed out of anger or some other emotion, without any other goal other than to kill.

Is that a speech from Himmler ?
100 iraqis are not worth one American life.
Ah .....the old sub human philosophies of the glorious past .

If you substitute "American life" with Tribesman, would your calculation be different? How many Iraqis do you think you're worth Tribe? 1, 10, 100, 1000...more? When the bullets are flying my way, I should think that I am worth as many as I have to kill to get home alive. How many British soldiers equal one good Irishman?

Just trying to put it into a more personal perspective. I do agree that this is a horrendous point of view to adopt as a national policy, but as a matter of survival it is the only one that works.

Rotor

[Ser Clegane]

If you substitute "American life" with Tribesman, would your calculation be different? How many Iraqis do you think you're worth Tribe? 1, 10, 100, 1000...more? When the bullets are flying my way, I should think that I am worth as many as I have to kill to get home alive. How many British soldiers equal one good Irishman?

Just trying to put it into a more personal perspective. I do agree that this is a horrendous point of view to adopt as a national policy, but as a matter of survival it is the only one that works.

Rotor

Uhm ... but this is not about killing to get home alive or about a matter of survival. It is about the alleged killing of innocent people and somebody claiming that the life of a guilty American soldier is worth more than the liives of 100 innocent Iraqis. I don't think that there is a way to put this into a "more personal perspective"

[Mount Suribachi]

PJ - even by your own standards you've sunk to a new low ~:(

*rest of post deleted lest I get myself in trouble*

[Devastatin Dave]

Brutality can be an effective tool against an unwilling occupied populace. Of course this type of clumsy execution will most likely have the opposite effect, emboldening the iraqis instead of scaring them into submission. Executions should only be used in a cold and calculated manner that has a greater effect than simply the deaths of those being executed. It seems these marines killed out of anger or some other emotion, without any other goal other than to kill.




Never. 100 iraqis are not worth one American life.
I'm hoping that you are just being over the top. I'm waiting for the trial and to hear the both side of the story, but if it turns out these men killed these folks out of some sort of revenge or someother macho bull **** reason then they should be punished for their crimes.
If it is true, then they have really done more harm than any suicide bomber could ever do to destroy this mission.
One more thing Panzer, I consider you a friend but to say that 100 Iraqis aren't worth 1 American life is beyond wrong. Most of those folks have ZERO choice in this war much like any civilian in any war. Have you seen the pictures of the mother's crying holding their mutilated children in their arms. Hell, don't you remember the picture of the American soldier holding a dying Iraqi child during the beginning of the war? Tell them that a 100 Iraqi lives aren't worth 1 American life.
I know the whole "war is hell" arguement but Jesus, if this story is true, then its MURDER plain and simple. My heart aches for these folks.
I was wrong to support this war. I thought that we would go in and stop the killing that Saddam was doing. Now it seems we've become more of the problem without any solutions. I hope things chage but I'm not optimistic about it anymore. All I see is the cold empty dead eyes of slain children who's laghed their last laugh and cried their last tear. I'm ashamed of myself for argueing for this for so long.
I love my country and I serve it still but when I read **** like "100 for this don't equal 1 of that" it makes me wonder what's the point...

So I guess I'm out of the Conservative club, I just don't want to see anymore boxes coming with flags draped on them or defenseless children in pieces in the name of freedom.:shame:

Sorry Panzer, my friend, sorry...

[Ice]

Never. 100 iraqis are not worth one American life.

These were every day civilians, not terrorists. That's just sickening that you would say that.

Although this is guaranteeed to happen in every war, that is not a good justification for it. These Marines should be dishonorably discharged and put in a prison for a good amount of time.

[Ser Clegane]

So I guess I'm out of the Conservative club, I just don't want to see anymore boxes coming with flags draped on them or defenseless children in pieces in the name of freedom.:shame:

I don't think that it should be you who is out of the CC - your post seems to be pretty much in line with conservative values...

[Redleg]

I don't think that it should be you who is out of the CC - your post seems to be pretty much in line with conservative values...


Agreed.

People who support the removal of Saddam from power does not equate to placing value of one people over another. Saddam needed to be removed from power a long time ago - unfortunately it costs human lifes to remove a dictator from power by force. That does not make their value as a human being less - it does make there loss a tragic event just as the loss of any other citizen of any other land due to violence.

If the Marines performed the acts that are being alledged and now seemly confirmed by the Military Investigation - they should be held responsible for their criminal acts. Warfare is bloodly business but its against an armed oppenent who has the ability to fight back, murdering civilians because you can is not warfare, but murder.

Panzer there is a big difference between murdering civilians and the accidental death of a civilian caught in the combat zone. All Justice demands that soldiers and marines be held accountable for cold blooded murder - both in a civilian law and in the military justice code.

[Tribesman]

Rotorgun , are you familiar with this ?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

So in regard to your If you substitute "American life" with Tribesman, would your calculation be different? How many Iraqis do you think you're worth Tribe? 1, 10, 100, 1000...more? what are you on about ?
Some dumb immigrant (and that in no way is disrespectful to immigrants in general or to dumb people for that matter ) comes out with some crap straight from the archives of the Einsatzgruppen and should expect what he gets .
Any deleted local parlance(oops Soly is back) that comes out with that sort of rubbish should be sent back to their own country where they have laws to deal with that type of allegedly deleted genus unspecified trash .
So while I may strongly dislike politicians and countries foriegn policies , I absolutely hate racists and Nazis .
Clear enough ?

So that leads to ...Panzer , my darling , when daddy made so much effort to bring you to the land of the free did you learn anything at all about the foundation of the American state before you "worked really hard" to become a citizen ?

Edit , Is that OK now ?

[Tribesman]

On another line , if 100 Iraqis = 1 American how many Iraqi children = 1 American?
They are not quite as big or productive are they , so how do we gauge it just to be fair ?
Plus of course one of those Iraqis was disabled , surely an amputee Iraqi is not worth as much as a whole Iraqi , perhaps we should use the formula from the Paralympics to work out just how much a person with different abilities rates against another , after all , you wouldn't want to be killing too many cripples , you might exceed your quota , which in all fairness would mean you had to offer up another Anerican for sacrifice .

[Proletariat]

Nvm

[Banquo's Ghost]

On the same vein, I don't consider the life of any soldier serving voluntarily and in full possession of his (or her) mental faculties to be worth all that much compared to the hapless civilian who rarely has much choice over whether his or her life is in danger, and definitely doesn't get paid for it.
So there.

Yes, what you wrote is in the same vein as PJ, and you too should be ashamed for putting it in such a manner. Measuring people's lives using generalised labels like Iraqi, soldier, American, civilian, is specious. I understand what you were trying to say, however.

Everyone has their own dreams, their own aspirations, their own hope for life. Some individuals make decisions that may deserve the fate that come to them. But to dehumanise soldiers who serve their country for many, many different reasons, some sympathetic, some outrageous, is to make the same mistake as PJ in his warped foolishness. When we dehumanise people, whatever their crimes or mistakes, we end up with tragedy.

All human life should be treated as if it were our own, and if we have to end that life for self-defence, or a greater good or whatever, it should be done with the heaviest regret.

This is not a video game we are talking about. Real people, just like those of us writing on this board, are dying on both sides.

[InsaneApache]

Perhaps PJ might prefer if it, if we just shovelled the children into ovens.

[Divinus Arma]

Panzer's reply to my comment was clearly over the top. I think it is important to make a distinction on the comment however:

When Americans commit murder, unprovoked, against women and children, then they no longer act as Americans. Then their lives mean no more to me than do the lives of terrorists.

However, in defense of the nation, while visiting violence upon our enemies with prejudice, exercising force with compassionate restraint whenever possible; in these instances I agree with Panzer. The life of one American, to me, is worth the destruction of as many of our enemy as is necessary. And if the people of Iraq were to stand united with me in mutual pursuit of their own betterment against the enemy that seeks their misery, then I would die alongside them. Because ultimately prosperity and liberty abroad equals prosperity and liberty at home.

[Marcellus]

Oh dear...


The BBC has uncovered new video evidence that US forces may have been responsible for the deliberate killing of 11 innocent Iraqi civilians.

The video appears to challenge the US military's account of events that took place in the town of Ishaqi in March.

The US said at the time four people died during a military operation, but Iraqi police claimed that US troops had deliberately shot the 11 people.

A spokesman for US forces in Iraq told the BBC an inquiry was under way.

The new evidence comes in the wake of the alleged massacre in Haditha, where US marines are suspected of massacring up to 24 Iraqi civilians in November 2005.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039420.stm

The reliability of the evidence hasn't been established yet, but this doesn't look good.

[Tribesman]

And if the people of Iraq were to stand united with me in mutual pursuit of their own betterment against the enemy that seeks their misery, then I would die alongside them.

Small problem there Divinus , and we hold this to be self evident , many of the people of Iraq see you as their enemy and the cause of their current misery , and if you consider that all of the major parties stood on a policy of getting rid of the coilition , and two of the major parties stood on a policy of fragmenting the country , there is not much chance of them standing united with you , or united with each other. :shrug:

Nice sentiment though:2thumbsup:

[Husar]

Brutality can be an effective tool against an unwilling occupied populace. Of course this type of clumsy execution will most likely have the opposite effect, emboldening the iraqis instead of scaring them into submission. Executions should only be used in a cold and calculated manner that has a greater effect than simply the deaths of those being executed. It seems these marines killed out of anger or some other emotion, without any other goal other than to kill.

Never. 100 iraqis are not worth one American life.
This destroys my last hope of you being a somewhat nice guy, I´d like to tell you a lot of things now, but let me just say that you´re a poor guy and I hope you´ll think about that.:shame:

[Leet Eriksson]

I'm simply enraged, no human life is above any other.

And half my family are iraqis, i'm simply enraged at panzers post. [edited by solypsist]
Yes edited, i don't like lowering myself to the filth status panzer went down to.

[Kagemusha]

Yes, what you wrote is in the same vein as PJ, and you too should be ashamed for putting it in such a manner. Measuring people's lives using generalised labels like Iraqi, soldier, American, civilian, is specious. I understand what you were trying to say, however.

Everyone has their own dreams, their own aspirations, their own hope for life. Some individuals make decisions that may deserve the fate that come to them. But to dehumanise soldiers who serve their country for many, many different reasons, some sympathetic, some outrageous, is to make the same mistake as PJ in his warped foolishness. When we dehumanise people, whatever their crimes or mistakes, we end up with tragedy.

All human life should be treated as if it were our own, and if we have to end that life for self-defence, or a greater good or whatever, it should be done with the heaviest regret.

This is not a video game we are talking about. Real people, just like those of us writing on this board, are dying on both sides.

That is very well sayed and i completely agree.:bow:About PJ´s statement:.How do you dare to say that? I hope you have the guts to state that in real life too and also pay the consequenses of your little statements. I dont know what else to say to you. :shame:

[Tribesman]

Now now Faisal , I already got PMd for comments a lot milder than yours , and while I agree with your sentiments entirely , do you really think that Panzer is worth it .
Well said , BTW (not too sure about the inbred bit though), but it does break forum rules ....extremely , if it didn't it would make a quite interesting signature .:2thumbsup:

[rotorgun]

Rotorgun , are you familiar with this ?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

So in regard to your If you substitute "American life" with Tribesman, would your calculation be different? How many Iraqis do you think you're worth Tribe? 1, 10, 100, 1000...more? what are you on about ?
Some dumb immigrant (and that in no way is disrespectful to immigrants in general or to dumb people for that matter ) comes out with some crap straight from the archives of the Einsatzgruppen and should expect what he gets .
Any deleted local parlance(oops Soly is back) that comes out with that sort of rubbish should be sent back to their own country where they have laws to deal with that type of allegedly deleted genus unspecified trash .
So while I may strongly dislike politicians and countries foriegn policies , I absolutely hate racists and Nazis .
Clear enough ?

Please accept my apologies Tribe. I did a poor job of expressing my thoughts indeed. I was only trying to get people to put themselves in the frame of mind that a scared young soldier, far from his home, might have in a situation such as we have in Iraq and Afghanistan. I truly do believe that every life is precious in the eyes of God. If the soldiers involved did conduct an unauthorized reprisal, and it got out of hand in the way it appears to have, I hope that justice will be served. It is a fact that soldiers do tend to dehumanize their enemy, both military and civilian, in any war. I hope that as a senior noncom I will be able to prevent such actions when I am deployed there. As for my comments about the numbers, I was actually thinking in terms of combatants who I might be engaged with in combat. Once they surrendered, I would obey the Geneva Covention and the Code of Conduct as per my training.

I commend you for your stance. What I said was unforgivable. I offer my hand in peace. :shakehands:

[Papewaio]

Iff these marines have done these murders then surely they are enemies of the state and endangering the mission that they were sent on. They if anything will have given a rallying point for the insurgents. They have in fact failed in winning hearts and minds and have in all probability increased the how deadly the war is for the troops. In the end of the day their brutatility is leading to an escalation of the rate of deaths for their own side and whittling away the chances of the occupation removing Saddam's legacy and leaving a pro west government in place.

The local populace by the looks need a saviour from the saviour.

Using brutatility to rule a population is terrrorism. If that is a choice of individuals then they should be prepared to have the full force of the War on Terrorism applied to them. Killing unarmed women and children out of fear is cowardice, and only cowards would excuse such an action in fear of protecting their own lives. "Kill as many as possible to save my own craven existence" is the call of despots and weaklings alike.

On the other hand if justice is clear and transparent on this and any other issues it may deflect a bit of the damage done on such an occasion. I would prefer that the normal treatment is done, no special prison or political pandering for or against them. However I would like it to be fully and frankly publicised... Justice apart from being swift should be seen to be done... although according to some it can be a hundred for one deal

100 Terrorists are not worth one other persons life.

[Hurin_Rules]

Never. 100 iraqis are not worth one American life.

I sincerely hope you were just trying to be over the top, and that you will apologize.

[Brenus]

“Brutality can be an effective tool against an unwilling occupied populace.”
Poor Panzer never realise that the Germans lost the war… I think he wanted to be provocative and well, when you play with matches on a kerosene barrel, sometimes you get burned…
When, by the way, did this tactic last time worked? Julius Caesar? :inquisitive:

Now, I TOLD you… I TOLD you that the US and the Coalition of the Will will face the same problems than the French in Algeria. I TOLD you that to put soldiers (trained to be aggressive) acting like police officer wasn’t a great idea.:no:

Yes, let’s go with a righteous indignation about the Marines. But who asked them to be there, to live a complete misery, to be targeted on every day but a more and more hostile population?
How many of you, of us, know the feeling of this kafkaian absurdity, when the population you are supposed to protect openly spit on your shadow? How many of us experimented the desire of revenge, and had the opportunity to do it? Al least theses Marines will face the court, but what about the pilots from the sky dropping clusters bombs which will kill more kids and women than a platoon of Marines?

I share the indignation for the murders. People who read what I wrote know that I am not a great supporter of the actual Policy of the USA.
However, even now, I want to express my sympathy for the poor US kids who joined the Marines because they were proud to be member of an elite troop, because they wanted to fight for their country, and became murderers.
If I would be a believer, I would pray for them for whatever god(s) to have mercy for their souls:shame:

[rotorgun]

I think that Brenus has hit the right moral tone here. I wrote a paper for a college course back in 2003 after the highly successful invasion of Iraq by the Coalition. In it I aksed if the US was acting as a liberator, or more like a new Rome. With such a degree of cultural difference, is it really possible to win the hearts of these people? Will the Coalition not have to become more and more brutal to secure the peace? If we want to suceed, do we have the will to be so brutal if it calls for it? The Romans certainly were when a province got out of line, but their culture accepted violence as a way of life. Can our modern sensibilities handle such a course?

I am in no way calling for the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, but merely pointing out the facts as we are able to know them. The Iraqis understand and accept strength. Perhaps this is why Saddam Hussein, like Stalin his hero, was so popular in Iraq. The Semetic tribal need for a "strong man" to lead them is a cultural norm that will make the assimilation of "Western style Democracy" difficult. As Brenus has pointed out, this is a more and more hostile population. The recent outbreak of riots in Kabul after the US vehicle accidently struck and killed some Afghans points to just how volatile feelings are beneath the surface of things in Islamic populations. I am sure that some of our Dutch freinds can relate to their feelings, as their parents and grandparents probably felt this way toward the Germans during the occupation of WWII. Indeed, how would any of us feel to have their country occupied by a foriegn army?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Indeed, how would any of us feel to have their country occupied by a foriegn army?

An important question. It's not just Islamic countries that resent occupation. To provide a particularly apposite answer, look at the history of my own island of Ireland. My own grandfather was involved in acts of brutality for the liberation of his country that had he been a modern Iraqi, would have provoked terrible condemnation from many board members.

[QwertyMIDX]

http://go.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=Q0J134EDPI3GECRBAE0CFEY?type=topNews&storyID=12414852

[Keba]

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5042036.stm)

[Kralizec]

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5042036.stm)

Allright, so the Iraqi policemen are lying then?
This smells fishy.

[Dutch_guy]

. I am sure that some of our Dutch freinds can relate to their feelings, as their parents and grandparents probably felt this way toward the Germans during the occupation of WWII. Indeed, how would any of us feel to have their country occupied by a foriegn army?

Well comming World Cup the only team the entire nation wants to beat is Germany, and that isn't all because of '74.

:balloon2:

[PanzerJaeger]

So I guess I'm out of the Conservative club, I just don't want to see anymore boxes coming with flags draped on them or defenseless children in pieces in the name of freedom.

Sorry Panzer, my friend, sorry...

I neither run the conservative club, nor do I represent the majority of its membership. You'll have to talk to Mr. Orkeney about that - whenever he returns. If anyone should be out of the conservative club do to deviance from the "party line", it should be me.

My views are more in line with fascist ultra-right wing molds, where as you are more of a traditional compassionate conservative. While we both probably have similar domestic values, in the realm of geopolitics I have a far more amoral disposition.

Anyway, there is no reason to apologize. Your anger at my comments shows your own heart and compassion.



As to my comment that "100 iraqis are not worth one American life", I would like to amend that:

100,000 iraqis are not worth one American life. Feel free to replace "iraqis" with "middle-easterners" and "American" with "westerners".

That is my belief and I feel no need to justify it other than by saying I cannot fathom a circumstance where I would value the life of an Iraqi over that of an American.

Now those soldiers should not have done what they did. Compassion for the conquered is a hallmark of what "American Values" are supposed to represent. However, no American soldier should lose his or her life over killing an Iraqi, justified or not. We, as the citizenry, sent them to do a job and we all share a collective responsibility for their actions. They fight for us, they protect us, and they represent us as a people.

The soldiers should be punished, but I will say again that their lives are worth far more than those they took simply by the virtue that they are American. The very fact that the Iraqis are an occupied people only highlights the inferiority of the iraqis as people. The entire state of the middle east in comparison to the Western World leads to similar conclusions.

People are not inherently equal. I am not as good as someone smarter, stronger, or better bred simply because I happen to be a member of the same species. The same applies to groups and nations.

[solypsist]

time out.

edit to add: After staff consultation, this thread will remain closed, to prevent flamewars. -KukriKhan.