Let's tax e-mails!

[Fragony]

Dear diary, today the EU has grown even more insane.

No, Saudi Arabia is still not an EU-candidate, that was the good news. Got to love the EU, they may be useless but at least they have no use. Well, here is the newest gem, a commision is trying to investigate if it is possible to tax e-mail and cell-phone text messages. Yes I know it sounds outragious, but I was completily convinced by their arguments: 'It would generate a lot of money for the EU'. At least they don't feel the need anymore to explain why they want my money, they just want it basta, I love honest politicians. Is it just me or is it a bit strange that a government wants to collect taxes for a service that isn't provided by them in the first place? Dear politicians EU, whoever you are, and wherever you may be, and whatever it is you do, could you please catch a scary disease or two or just try to be unborn?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I'd be interested in a link to evidence before galloping my high horse alongside yours.

There was a discussion in the European Parliament on a similar topic some months back, IIRC, which was looking at ways of reducing/stopping spam. If the spammers or relayers had to pay a tax on each email, it might concentrate their minds. Is this the origin of your ire? I believe it was rejected as unworkable technically.

This smacks of Straight Banana Hysteria Syndrome, but you never know with our dearly beloved EU.

~:rolleyes:

[rory_20_uk]

The UK should return to Splendid Isolation. Failing that there's a good chance I'm going to emigrate to Canada / USA.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

There was a discussion in the European Parliament on a similar topic some months back, IIRC, which was looking at ways of reducing/stopping spam. If the spammers or relayers had to pay a tax on each email, it might concentrate their minds. Is this the origin of your ire? I believe it was rejected as unworkable technically.


Afraid not, they actually want to tax e-mails. Only a link in dutch I'm afraid, http://www.webwereld.nl/articles/41349/eu-kijkt-serieus-naar-plan-voor-btw-op-e-mail-en-sms.html

suffer.....

[Scurvy]

they're right about one thing, it would raise huge amounts of money...if only they could actually use it responsibly :inquisitive:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Afraid not, they actually want to tax e-mails. Only a link in dutch I'm afraid, http://www.webwereld.nl/articles/41349/eu-kijkt-serieus-naar-plan-voor-btw-op-e-mail-en-sms.html

suffer.....

Aye, you're right. Found a link in English: Linky (http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=internetNews&storyID=2006-05-26T121239Z_01_L26740888_RTRIDST_0_OUKIN-UK-TELECOMS-EU-FUNDING.XML)

And it's just as Fragony says - nice and honest, they just want money. No frills, or sweeteners for the pill. The pollys want more cash. :furious3:

Mind you, it's a Frenchman who suggested the idea.... :juggle2:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Mind you, it's a Frenchman who suggested the idea.... :juggle2:You're all our money-spinning bitches and there's nought you can do about it. :knight:

[Banquo's Ghost]

You're all our money-spinning bitches and there's nought you can do about it. :knight:

Personally, Louis, I love that Ireland is your bitch, as we have made a heckuva living from it!

*rolls around in bath of EU money sent by Paris*

~:thumb:

[Louis VI the Fat]

Nah, we only use money from the taxes we levy on the UK for that. We redistribute it to Ireland to piss off the English.

[Husar]

I read about it few days ago and just hope they´ll be intelligent enough not to do it.
I´m also wondering how they want to do that, I mean, will I have to pay using an American e-mail provider(g-mail)?
Wouldn´t ISPs need to track every single e-mail people send? Wouldn´t all that crap reduce privacy?

And yeah, the reason to do it is the best I´ve heard for some time.:wall:
I think he said something like we should pay for the benefits the EU gives, but I really doubt e-mails are a benefit we got from the EU.:dizzy2:

[Fragony]

You're all our money-spinning bitches and there's nought you can do about it. :knight:

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Scurvy]

Nah, we only use money from the taxes we levy on the UK for that. We redistribute it to Ireland to piss off the English.

:furious3:

[edyzmedieval]

Why can't we tax politicians? :inquisitive:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Why can't we tax politicians? :inquisitive:

Since they get paid by us the taxpayer, they'd only put our taxes up again to pay their taxes.

:stupido2: Actually, that's exactly what happens now... :furious3:

[The_Doctor]

I like the general idea of the EU, but it is becoming increasing bizarre.

[Duke Malcolm]

I like the general idea of the EU, but it is becoming increasing bizarre.

Tax everyone to give money to the French and Irish and the vast bureaucratic machine?

[Redleg]

Another demonstration of an organization that wants to line its pockets in ways that border on the acidine.

Watch out Europe - Big Brother is closer to you guys right now then to the United States.

But we are not far behind - Congress has talked around such a measure in the United States - but I believe it was tabled because of the very nature of the internet.

[doc_bean]

Most EU money comes to us anyway :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

[A.Saturnus]

Afraid not, they actually want to tax e-mails.

Well, "they" is a French conservative politician. The amount is BTW 0,00001 cent per email. If this comes, you'll have a tough choice every day what to do with your money: a can of coke, or send 60 million emails.

I still think it's a bad idea but it's neither new nor crazy. It may still come as a surprise to some but yes, the EU costs money. Sooner or later it will have to start raising its own taxes. Because that's what governments do, isn't it? Right now, the budget of the EU is tiny.


Why can't we tax politicians?

Actually, after the idea of taxing emails didn't make it last time in Italy, an Italian politician suggested exactly that. Politicians should pay per word they speak.
On the other hand, if I had a cent for every time an Europhobe has an hysteric reaction, I could already send billions of emails.

[BHCWarman88]

Why can't we tax politicians? :inquisitive:


that's sounds really good :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Banquo's Ghost]

On the other hand, if I had a cent for every time an Europhobe has an hysteric reaction, I could already send billions of emails.

Fair comment, though it's not just Europhobes that get hysteric about some proposals that emanate from the EU. Many of us Europhiles despair too.

Your point about governments needing money is fair too, except that the EU is not any sort of representative government. When that times comes, and said government is properly accountable to the people of Europe, I will be quite happy to entertain creative proposals for taxation.

Until then, the bureaucrats should tread more carefully.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I still don't know if it's a hoax or not.

The internet has a long history of urban legends (http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/bill602p.asp) about taxing emails. With the numbers Reuters provided, it would yield so little it's not worth bothering with. How are they going to levy it anyway? If you would send an outrageous 10.000 email a year, you'd still only need to pay 0,1 cent annually at 0,00001 cent per mail.

450.000.000 EU citizens * 1000 emails each * 0,00001 cent = a whopping 450.000 euro = rubbish.

An email tax could not be put into practice anyway. Those text message taxes could work.

But even if it isn't a hoax, what is the hysteria about anyway? I already pay VAT over my phone-bill, I assume most of you do too. Local, provincial, national governments all raise taxes - the EU needs funding too.

[Kagemusha]

I just wonder how big bureocracy our beloved EU would like to build to monitor this great new idea.~:mecry:

[doc_bean]

I just wonder how big bureocracy our beloved EU would like to build to monitor this great new idea.~:mecry:

Employment rate in Belgium goes up again !

I love the EU !!!!

[Husar]

Employment rate in Belgium goes up again !

I love the EU !!!!
Yeah, since you profit so much from those improvements, why not tax only Belgians to finance the EU?


If this comes, you'll have a tough choice every day what to do with your money: a can of coke, or send 60 million emails.
The question that rises from this is: How are they planning to collect the taxes? If I send 20 mails per year, it will be pretty hard to bill me for that, without "rounding up" to one cent, which in return would be pretty unfair compared to people who send 2000 mails per year and pay the same amount.:inquisitive:

[ZombieFriedNuts]

I think I’m begging to dislike the EU

[Rodion Romanovich]

Pointless to tax emails. It's so easy to make a new protocol for sending electronical messages that guys within the network business will make a new protocol for sending messages, if it get taxed too they'll make a new protocol again.

What has EU ever done for us?
- young people get more drunk more often with the new easier liquor trade
- people buying products labelled juice don't necessarily get juice
- tax emails
- too small strawberries are not called strawberries anymore
- too small bananas or with abnormal curvature are not called bananas anymore
- east european workers are still underpayed
- sex slaves from Eastern Europe have never been easier to smuggle into Western European countries thanks to the new Schengen system

The actual advantages were:
- encouraging peace between the old rivals France and Germany after ww2
- encouraging easier trade within Europe
...but those goals were achieved already when it was still the coal-and-steel union. The political non-trade related stuff brought into EU really hasn't given anything positive. Why not try to recognize the parts of EU that are benefitial (trade stuff) and keep them while removing the harmful things (a bunch of beureucrats using our tax money to decide how long bananas can be)?

[Fragony]

Sooner or later it will have to start raising its own taxes. Because that's what governments do, isn't it?

Government should be providing services, and we pay taxes for the wonderful job they are doing. The government has no right to take our money because of something they didn't do for us, this is the 'we want money' and 'where to get it' thinking I loathe my own government for, I don't need another one on top of that, especially if I don't know who to call when I have a grievance.

[Kagemusha]

I dont understand why should i pay a dime directly to EU.EU is not my government.Last time i checked EU was an Union of Nations,not federal state.And if its up to me it never will be a federal state.:no:

[A.Saturnus]

Government should be providing services, and we pay taxes for the wonderful job they are doing. The government has no right to take our money because of something they didn't do for us, this is the 'we want money' and 'where to get it' thinking I loathe my own government for, I don't need another one on top of that, especially if I don't know who to call when I have a grievance.


The EU has done a lot for me. Maybe it has done a lot for you, maybe not, it still is an institution that has been given responsibilities by its citizens. It needs money to fill out those responsibilities.


I dont understand why should i pay a dime directly to EU.EU is not my government.Last time i checked EU was an Union of Nations,not federal state.And if its up to me it never will be a federal state.

So is Finland your government then?

[BHCWarman88]

The EU has done a lot for me. Maybe it has done a lot for you, maybe not, it still is an institution that has been given responsibilities by its citizens. It needs money to fill out those responsibilities.



So is Finland your government then?



Why? Why Should We have to Pay Money for Every E-mail we send just because they need money?? Let Them go find another way to get money then do something dumb like this..

[Ser Clegane]

The only dumb thing I can see about such a tax is that it will probably be a tad difficult to implement - other than that I can hardly see what would make it different from a lot of other taxes (e.g., taxes you pay on petrol or on booze)

[Kralizec]

The tax itself is not dumb or entirely new, but I don't know if I like the idea of paying taxes to the EU in its current form, instead of just financing it via member state contributions. If they're going to tax us, fine, but it will have to be managed sound financially and democraticly. IIRC at the moment all the European Parliament can do against financial mismanagement is voting off a budget entirely. Any increase of power for the EU should be accompanied by an increase of power for its parliament.

[A.Saturnus]

Why? Why Should We have to Pay Money for Every E-mail we send just because they need money?? Let Them go find another way to get money then do something dumb like this..

Yes, the idea of the EU having its own tax is rational but taxing emails isn't the right way. That's why it will never come.

[Kagemusha]

So is Finland your government then?

Finlands government is my Govermant yes. Why should i be taxed by EU,when Our own Government does that fairly enough. I support the monetary Union but why should we hand out our decision making power considering our own domestic issues to some byrocrats in Bryssels? Now if you want to talk about EU parliament i think its nothing more then formality.The Comisssion has all the power in EU. So i dont see any point to be a loyal European and hand important decision making power to far away byrocrats and condem our Country to Northern periferia of this "Federal EU".We Finns have had the pleasure to be ruled by two different foreign powers and i think the lessons have been learned.No thanks for me. :laugh4:

[Moros]

pfff who pays taxes anyway.

It really seems an idiot Idea, it wouldn't get them much money. Even less then Louis calculates


450.000.000 EU citizens * 1000 emails each * 0,00001 cent = a whopping 450.000 euro = rubbish.

I believe there are 450.000.000 European citizens not EU citizens and you have to remember that only about 50-85% of the people uses internet (depens on location). And I think that the average is a lot lower then 1000 e-mails. So that would be completly nothing. Even the Belgian military gets more money then that. But If they did that would also mean they have to register about 150.000.000.000 e-mails a year. I think that might even solve employment for the whole EU.

Oh well it's good to hear that we Europeans can be just as crazy as the Amercians.

[drone]

If they could actually enforce it, they should charge more, maybe 0.001 Euros, and for the sender only. Not much of a strain on the ordinary citizen, but it could put some spammers out of business. But I don't think it's enforceable.

I think I heard they wanted to apply this to text messaging as well. Will posting to the .Org soon be targeted as well? :inquisitive:

[KukriKhan]

If they could actually enforce it, they should charge more, maybe 0.001 Euros, and for the sender only. Not much of a strain on the ordinary citizen, but it could put some spammers out of business. But I don't think it's enforceable.

I think I heard they wanted to apply this to text messaging as well. Will posting to the .Org soon be targeted as well? :inquisitive:

Not until they pry the mouse out of my cold, dead hand. :)

[Major Robert Dump]

No different than taxing water derived froma lake by a "nonprofit" organization. no different than the telecommunications tax that was enacted decades ago to pay for stuff that has long since been paid for. No different than taxing federal mail for more federal revenue even though the price of shipping hasnt gone up 40% in the last 10 years, no different than taxing used car title transfers more than new car title acquisitions to punish people for not buying "new" garbage from the big 3, no different from taxing me for making a "profit" on a property sale even though the property tax has risen steadily over the past 10 years, thereby negating all real porfit I actually made form the sale to begin with. welocme aboard, EU

[BHCWarman88]

They can't enforce it.. It be To Hard to Enforce all the people who send e-mails..

[A.Saturnus]

Finlands government is my Govermant yes. Why should i be taxed by EU,when Our own Government does that fairly enough. I support the monetary Union but why should we hand out our decision making power considering our own domestic issues to some byrocrats in Bryssels? Now if you want to talk about EU parliament i think its nothing more then formality.The Comisssion has all the power in EU. So i dont see any point to be a loyal European and hand important decision making power to far away byrocrats and condem our Country to Northern periferia of this "Federal EU".We Finns have had the pleasure to be ruled by two different foreign powers and i think the lessons have been learned.No thanks for me. :laugh4:

Actually, the Council of Ministers is the most powerful institution in the EU. We have to thank for that the people who said no to the Constitution, because it would have made the Parliament more powerful. But anyway, what precisly makes the close-by beaurocrates in Helsinki your government and not the far-away beaurocrates in Brussels? The fact that they are close by? Both regulate your society by making rules. You - meaning the population of Finland - have given both certain functions. Is it so crazy that they both need money to perform these functions?

[Kagemusha]

Actually, the Council of Ministers is the most powerful institution in the EU. We have to thank for that the people who said no to the Constitution, because it would have made the Parliament more powerful. But anyway, what precisly makes the close-by beaurocrates in Helsinki your government and not the far-away beaurocrates in Brussels? The fact that they are close by? Both regulate your society by making rules. You - meaning the population of Finland - have given both certain functions. Is it so crazy that they both need money to perform these functions?

The Ministers in Minister Council represent their invidual Nations.So they are not EU fiscals but Ministers representing their own country. The reason i dont want to pay taxes to EU is that EU is not my government.EU to me is a trade Union that benefits my country.Not a federal State. Tell me what direct functions EU has in Finland that would need straight taxes from Finnish citicens?A counter question.Would you mind paying taxes to Washington or Moscow while living in Belgium? I bet the beaurocrates in Moscow wouldnt do lot worse decisions then the ones in Brussels.

[BHCWarman88]

THey proably would be making Wrose Desicons Kag.. Why Pay Taxes to US or Moscow if you live in Poland or Belgium,makes no sense..

[A.Saturnus]

The Ministers in Minister Council represent their invidual Nations.So they are not EU fiscals but Ministers representing their own country. The reason i dont want to pay taxes to EU is that EU is not my government.EU to me is a trade Union that benefits my country.Not a federal State. Tell me what direct functions EU has in Finland that would need straight taxes from Finnish citicens?A counter question.Would you mind paying taxes to Washington or Moscow while living in Belgium? I bet the beaurocrates in Moscow wouldnt do lot worse decisions then the ones in Brussels.


The Ministers form an institution that is part of the government of the EU.
The EU has functions in regulating the economy, the jurisdical system, education and other aspects of your society. The EU is not just a trade union. You may want it to be that, but your government and its predecessors have disagreed with you.

[Kagemusha]

The Ministers form an institution that is part of the government of the EU.
The EU has functions in regulating the economy, the jurisdical system, education and other aspects of your society. The EU is not just a trade union. You may want it to be that, but your government and its predecessors have disagreed with you.

You didnt answer my question A.Saturnus?~;) About the Finish governments disagreeing with me.Thats the thing with democracy.Sometimes you are with the winning side sometimes you are not.The EU makes directives.These are guidelines to the countries involved with it.EU cant over rule any decisions made by the governments who are participating on EU. Thats the little but very meaningfull difference that makes EU a Union Of Independent Countries,not a Federal State.That is also the reason some unmentioned big EU countries wont fallow the EMU. But make their budgets as they seem fit.Another question for you my friend.Do you believe that it would be better for European countries,that EU really would be a federal state?

[A.Saturnus]

You didnt answer my question A.Saturnus?~;) About the Finish governments disagreeing with me.Thats the thing with democracy.Sometimes you are with the winning side sometimes you are not.The EU makes directives.These are guidelines to the countries involved with it.EU cant over rule any decisions made by the governments who are participating on EU. Thats the little but very meaningfull difference that makes EU a Union Of Independent Countries,not a Federal State.That is also the reason some unmentioned big EU countries wont fallow the EMU. But make their budgets as they seem fit.Another question for you my friend.Do you believe that it would be better for European countries,that EU really would be a federal state?

I don't know whether it would be better for the European countries, but I'm convinced that it would be better for the Europeans.
Of course the EU can overrule decisions made by participating countries, and it has done so several times. If you follow the news you'll often hear that governments change their policy on things because the EU has ordered to do so. That some unmentioned EU countries got away with breaking EU treaties has been (overdone) goodwill on part of the EU. The EU however could and should punish these countries for their transgressions.
Oh, and you question whether I'd like to pay taxes to Washington or Moscow, well I think it doesn't matter much where the capital is. I for one prefer Brussels, but that's subjective. I think however that neither the US nor Russia are at the moment ready to join the EU yet.