30 Year War

[BHCWarman88]

Hey,




I like to know who won the 30 year War.. I could not find a very good ansewer in my 3 Huge History Books,so I like to know who won the 30 Year War,the Cathloics or the Protestnats??

[matteus the inbred]

It ended following the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648...I suppose you could say that France and Sweden came out best, and of those only France's power lasted. The HRE became politically fragmented and suffered massive depopulation, famine and destruction, the Habsburg Spanish Empire was forced to accept Dutch Independence and also lost Portugal.
In this respect I suppose the major Catholic forces did ok.
I am unsure as to the overall religious result though. Basically, it gave princes the right to determine the religions of their own state (out of Lutheran Protestant and Catholic), so a victory for everybody and nobody, depending on which way you see it.

Overall, I think France would be a good answer. Most people were probably relieved to get it finished though, as it was a very destructive war in terms of its impact on civilians and industry. It was also the last major religious war fought in mainland Europe, and ushered in an age of purely political and ideological warfare.

This is all quite simplified though.

[Kralizec]

The Dutch had been at war with the Spanish Habsburgs for some 50 years before it, the so-called 80 years war.

The peace of Westhpalia/Munster (the first treaty recognised Swiss, the second the Ducth republic as seperate states) is considered the birth of international law.

[Aenlic]

Speaking from the experiences of my paternal ancestors, I'd say the people of the German speaking areas lost. My ancestors left Schornsheim, a small village southwest of Mainz in the Rhine valley in the Palatinate of the Rhine, because of the religious problems which were still going on nearly 80 years after the Treaty of Westphalia. Each local ruler chose his religion under the treaty and his people were essentially required to follow. Lutherans were thus required to swear oaths of allegiance to Catholics, Calvinists to Lutherans, Catholics to one or the other and so on. Combined with the massive destruction from the war, and the increased poverty as a result, the religious inequities led to what is called the Auswanderung, which lasted for more 150 years. Millions of ethnic Germans and also ethnic Czechs and Bohemians and others, fled the continuing religious persecution in the century and more following the war - east into Russia, south into Switzerland, or west to eventually end up in America and - as my ancestors did in 1748, coming to Pennsylvania. Some even went as far as Australia in the 19th century.

[Lord Winter]

Neither really, all of germany was completely devastated, some parts lost over half of there population. Crops all over were burned and like the others said the holy roman empire ceased to be an power anymore. Sweden (Protestant) and France (Catholic) came out as the super powers of Europe very much like the soviets and the U.S. after WWII. Sweden eventually was defeated in the great northern war 60 years latter by Russia, and France held on to power until Napoleon.

In short the thirty years war evolved pass its religious roots into a power struggle over Europe when France entered the war and neither religion truly came out on top.

Edit:a good website with more info: http://www.pipeline.com/~cwa/TYWHome.htm

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hmmm.

Lots of losers, I agree.

HRE is torn apart and Germany balkanized. German power is secondary at best until the middle 1800s.

Spanish power is eroded, and though Spain continues as a "great" power for many years following, the practical influence of the Spanish ebbs considerably.

England steps into that vacuum, and slowly begins to gain power.

France emerges as the dominant continental power in Europe, a status it retains through Napoleon I.

Sweden achieves its highest status as a world power, though this is comparatively short-lived.

Future US of A and the "New World" are almost completely un-involved in this European war, though it will be a major battlefield of the world wars of the 18th century.

[BHCWarman88]

Yea,I know Alot of those Counties were Econmilly Destroyed and Devasted from the War and I know Sweden Became a Superpower during the War,but I didn't know France became a Superpower then, Thought they did only when Napolen Came.. Boy, I learn something every day..

[Watchman]

France's been a major fish in the pond damn near since Charlemagne. I found it an amusing detail they were squabbling over the Alsace-Lothringen region with the Germans already in the Thirty Years' War if not earlier, incidentally.

"Catholics or Protestants" is a pretty difficult question to answer, when you remember that the three participants that can be considered to have ended up as the victors were Protestant Sweden, the Protestant lords of Germany whom the Emperor was not able to subdue (which was more or less what the whole thing originally started from), and Catholic France... But then, the politics of the whole war were pretty labyrinthine too and in practice religious affiliation became rather secondary right fast. France had no compunctions about supporting the technically Protestant side first with wads of money (they footed about one-third of the Swedish running expenses for much of the war) and then with armies for one example.

[Mount Suribachi]

Hey,




I like to know who won the 30 year War.. I could not find a very good ansewer in my 3 Huge History Books,so I like to know who won the 30 Year War,the Cathloics or the Protestnats??

As Watchman has indicated above, the conflict cannot be resolved into a simple protestant v catholic viewpoint. Sweden entered the war under the aegis of being the champion of the protestant faith, yet were aligned with Catholic France. The various other German rulers were of a mix of P & C and often made (and switched) alliances with little regard to religion. And the protestants probly should be further divided into Lutherans & Calvinists. The animosity between those 2 over such an obscure theological technicality never ceases to amaze this protestant.

[KrooK]

You asked wrong because 30 years war has been beetwen protestants and catholics only at the beginning. Later France joined protestants and France was catholic country. We can't forgot about war beetwen Turkey and Poland which really could be called part of 30 years war.

Both sides lost much. Palatinate and Bohemia were completely destroyed. Situation into northern germany was only a bit better.

Who won and without great loses;
1)France - no great victory but many small, they became most important country into western europe. And since german countries became weak, they were easy pray for Louis XIV....
2)Sweden - they gained many new territories but lost ports into northern Poland without fight. Became really strong.
3)Ican put here Holland - no one questioned their independence after war.

Who won but without great loses
1)Austria - at the beginning only polish help saved that country but finally they reconquered Bohemia.

Who really lost
1)Bohemia, some pps tell that they lost 75% population
2)Palatinate - maybe even more loses
3)Small german countries
4)I think I should put here Denmark - they lost domination into Scandinavia

Who took part, gained nothing, lost nothing
1)Poland
2)Turkey

[Aenlic]

Don't forget some of the other minor players. English Protestant "volunteers" (there are many stories of men being rounded up and impressed into service) under Sir Horace Vere fought in the war as well. In one case they defended several Palatine towns from the Spanish Army of Flanders, commanded by Spínola. They also participated in the siege of Breda, and various actions in the Lowlands countries.

The main result for England was a large group of trained and experienced war veterans, Protestants, available for the coming English Civil Wars.

[Brutus]

May I remark that usually the actions in the later Eighty Years' War (1621-1648) are usually not considered to be part of the Thirty Years' War. The Dutch Republic never involved itself in the War in Germany. The international public, however, regarded Spanish and Dutch actions as important and sometimes exemplary for the greater scene. The aforementioned (first) siege of Breda (1624-1625) by Ambrosio Spinola was considered a masterpiece by most European commanders. The Polish crown-prince travelled especially to the Spanish encirlement of the city to inspect the siege. Of course, the "brilliance" of this siege (which took 7/8 months) was rather shattered when the Dutch under Frederic Henry retook the city in 1637 in only 7 weeks.

These English (as well as Scottish and Irish) "volunteers" were none more than mercenaries. In both Catholic and Protestant armies you would have found contingents of British mercenaries, besides the usual Germans, Italians, Walloons, etc. England itself never joined the War, which, IMO, was one of the reasons they became a major player after.

I'd say the one true "winner" of the Thirty Years' War was France, which finally came on top above Spain after almost 150 years of near-continuous struggle.
The real losers were probably the many smaller states in the HRE, who were devestated for the centuries to come.