Asking fans for help with vegetation: getting palms on the battlemap

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I've gotten no real help asking for aid in getting palm trees into the battle maps for EB (though some other mods have said they would provide their palms when the complete mods are released, but that's too long for us honestly). So I'm asking any fans of EB to help figure this thing out.

What we would like is to get palm trees in the battle map. Now you might say "well, they are already there", and you would be right. They appear spaced throughout cities (when you have a siege) and they also appear in a small size in single clumps (an oasis) in desert areas randomly. But what we are talking about are palm forests. All along the Nile, Arabia, along many other important rivers in the east and even in mediterranean areas perhaps. Caius Brittanicus posted a WIP image of the Crusades' palms on the battlemap here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1152891&postcount=17 (it needs another ground texture though at least)

This project would seem to require making new vegetation models, and Duke John has provided a tutorial on how to do that (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60901), if you have the skills, Photoshop, and 3DS Max (I know nothing about any of that). If we had someone who could do this, and make us appropriate new models, that would be great. BUT the thing is, there are palm models in the game. CA just didn't use them on regular battlemaps. That's what I'm trying to fix. If we used the vanilla palm models, but just spaced them appropriately and used the different variants they have, then we might not even have to descr_vegetation.db regenerate (which would be nice too).

Here are the different vanilla types in the "oasis cluster" (on the top left) and in the settlement. You can see there are four types easily distinguishable - and type2b is a much taller version of type2 it seems.
https://img288.imageshack.us/img288/2127/palmsvanilla9zn.th.jpg (https://img288.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmsvanilla9zn.jpg)

So, why can't we just move the palms from the settlements onto the battlemaps? We would like to try them in the semi_arid climate type. The files that control these seem to be the following:

In the descr_settlement_plan.txt file, you see the palms are called up for any settlement when the terrain is desert or :


sandy_desert any tree_A_palm
rocky_desert any tree_A_palm

Any temperate climate type will pull up deciduous trees (we'd like to make semi-arid climates pull up palm trees here too, btw, but I don't know exactly how to do that - though it seems like this is the place to edit it).

Apparently semi-arid doesn't pull up any vegetation types, if you look into descr_vegetation.txt. It has these entries:


; Semi Arid
vegetation semi_arid_dense_forest modifies default_forest
{
}

vegetation semi_arid_dense_scrub modifies default_scrub
{
}
Whereas this is a type that would pull up and reference trees:

; Open forest
vegetation forest_open_dense_forest
{
layout 400 forest_layout.tga
radius 4.5
height_range 0.7 1.1
aspect_range 0.7 1.0
lod trees
model df_tree_01
model df_tree_02
}

The climate entry itself in climates.txt for semi-arid is this:

climate semi_arid ;green with palms
{
colour 0 114 188
heat 2

strategy summer sparse_tree palm_a.cas 10
strategy summer dense_tree palm_b.cas 20
strategy summer canopy palm_b.cas 20

battle_vegetation
dense_forest medi_dense_forest
dense_scrub medi_dense_scrub
; dense_forest semi_arid_dense_forest
; dense_scrub semi_arid_dense_scrub

battle_winter_vegetation
;dense_forest medi_dense_forest
;dense_scrub medi_dense_scrub
dense_forest semi_arid_dense_forest
dense_scrub semi_arid_dense_scrub
env_map data/battlefield/envmaps/grass.dds
}

So you can see how a climate that is semi_arid on the map would pull up for battle vegetation those same vegetation types (semi_arid_dense_forest and semi_arid_dense scrub) that we just saw had no trees referenced in them.

The first step might be getting trees to appear in the semi-arid climate type, but the second step would be to get the palms from the settlements working in the battlemap. I might think (ignorant as I am of modelling and such) that just pulling the same palm .cas and texture files from the models_building file and pasting them in the models_vegetation file would then allow us to reference them in battlemaps (provided we actually point them out to the code). The place where it references the cas file and texture I showed above. The example would be:


; Open forest
vegetation forest_open_dense_forest
{
layout 400 forest_layout.tga
radius 4.5
height_range 0.7 1.1
aspect_range 0.7 1.0
lod trees
model df_tree_01
model df_tree_02
}

You can also explain what "model df_tree_01" is in that same file - you just look further up in descr_vegetation.txt and you'll see the place where the code understands this model reference points it to a specific cas file:


; deep forest tree - Variant A
model df_tree_01
{
level models_vegetation/deepforest_tree_v1.CAS
}

So if we made a "new" model here (really, same as one of the old ones - palm_high_tree.cas is a good one to choose, and it was working in the settlements), it might look like this:


; semi arid tree - Variant A
model sa_tree_01
{
level models_vegetation/palm_tree_high.CAS
}

But when I put this in, and move the CAS and all palm texture files over to models_vegetation, and then even when I tell the vegetation type for semi_arid to reference that cas file, like this:


; Semi Arid
vegetation semi_arid_dense_forest modifies default_forest
{
layout 384 forest_layout.tga
radius 2
height_range 0.4 0.8
aspect_range 0.7 1.3
lod trees
model sa_tree_01
}

I still don't get it showing up in the game. Or at least as far as I can tell. Any particular reason? I've never modded these files - so this is my first try. If anyone can help us, we'd really like to get this working and fine tuned (that comes later of course). Any chance anyone here could help out with this? We'd love to get something looking like some of these:

http://www.galen-frysinger.ws/egypt/nile34.jpg
http://twins.free.fr/travel/maroc/page5/images/oasis%206_jpg.jpg

------------
also, this thread seems a good candidate now for 'most viewed thread with no response' if there is such an award! :grin:

[Dayve]

Since it looks as though nobody can do it... I'd just like to say that lack of palm trees wouldn't bother me in the slightest. :book:

[shifty157]

I could take a look at it. I cant at the moment but i dont think itd be very difficult.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I can now get one palm that comes from vanilla to work:

https://img251.imageshack.us/img251/8074/palmtry21td.th.jpg (https://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmtry21td.jpg)

And I can make it the only tree that appears now too (it's just mixed in with the others on that screen). But I really would love to get the other palms shown in the thumbnail at the top (1, 3, and 4) working too - to have a mix.

But by god we will have palms here! :grin:

[shifty157]

It looks to me like palm 2 as you call it referenced two different textures. The one from the city and the one that you have working are clearly different looking.

Otherwise youre on the right track. Good job.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I know nothing about models - but I can see you're right there. Are the tga textures referenced in any particular file - or are they 'coded' into the CAS file itself? Does it take something like 3dsmax to change the texture references if that is the case?

[shifty157]

The texture paths (unless defined in a text file) are coded into the .CAS file type. This means that youd need to go into max to change the textures. The only bad thing here is that the CAS importer/exporter made by Vercingetorix can only export one texture path while many .CAS files used by the game clearly have several.

Regardless this shouldnt be a problem for you. You just need to find both textures. Youve found the one. Just look for the other and copy into the right folder and it should work fine. If not then youll need to edit the model in 3DS max to use only one texture. This would also mean combining the two different textures into a single one.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I found the other - and plugged it in (changed the name), but while the leaves now look better, the trunk is all messed up. It's like the two parts are what we need. Maybe I'll need to be modelling help after all to get this to work.

[shifty157]

As far as i cna tell it doesnt look like you need to define a texture path in a text file. Therefore if you leave the .CAS unchanged and simply have both texture files unchanged in the right folder it should reference them both and work fine. Dont replace one with the other. Keep them both in the folder uneditted with their original names.

[Dol Guldur]

Teleklos,

Can you share your success steps thus far? Though it cannot be the highest priority, I am nevertheless interested and may be able to help out. I, too, am no modeller but I might be able to find some fa:tw modellers who can help (though, like yours, there are other schedules at play).

One day there will be palms!

Dol Guldur,
Fourth Age, Management.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I'd be happy to share the steps Dol. I just still don't have any one single model working with the right texture though. I had not touched any file names at all but both models I got to work incorrectly were using textures (the trunk was only partly visible, wrong color; the leaves were 'bushy' and not the right texture when the trunk worked; and when I did rename a texture, the leaves were great, but the trunk was messed up then).

It's really sort of pissing me off too that I can't get someone inside the mod even to help out - someone who handles the CAS files. Everyone who is interested (a number of folks) is not a modeller. I need to know exactly what texture files those two CAS files reference (vanilla): palm_tree_2_high.cas and palm_tree_high.cas. I can't get palm_swamp_tree.cas to work at all without CTD'ing. And the really nice big palms are two that I don't know how to make work at all (they don't seem to have CAS files that I can see easily referenced, but just reference files that work for multiple trees like this: info_tree_A.cas).

If someone can get this straight, maybe we can figure out a way to get vanilla palms into the mod with vanilla models and textures, and give easy instructions to anyone else who wants these palms too. But for now I can't figure it out on my own entirely (without having CAS knowledge and programs).

[shifty157]

Im working on ger_specialest at the moment (Its coming along well by the way) but Ill open the .CAS files you pointed out in a little bit and see whats going on with the textures. I have to quick go out on an errand.

On a side note. Do you like the new windsock texture better?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

On a side note. Do you like the new windsock texture better?It looks better, but I'm pretty sure the texture will need desaturating at the least - it just stands out too bright compared to most other things in the EB "look". :grin: I'm back now and have a little time this afternoon - I'll post it on the internal board and see what recommendations the steppe guys have. Thanks!

[shifty157]

palm_tree_high.CAS references three textures.
#palmtop.tga.dds
#palmleaf2.tga.dds
palmtrunk.tga.dds

palm_tree_2_high.CAS references two textures.
##palm_low.tga.dds
##palm.tga.dds

palm_swamp_tree.CAS references two textures.
##fernfronds.tga.dds
fernbark.tga.dds

Copy the textures into the correct folder and try it out.

info_tree_A.CAS (as well as info_tree_B, C, etc) are .BPI files. They are similar to .CAS files but are not used to render the model but simply as a reference for an object's boundaries.

There is a tree_A_palm.ITEM file. The file references "anim_tree_A_palm_high.cas" and "tree_A_palm_high.cas" but chances are these files dont exist.

There is also tree_B_palm.ITEM and more files all the way to 'F' but excluding 'D'. They reference the same .CAS files except the letter changes to match. Let me load one of these up.

When loaded into max these .ITEM files produce an upsidedown palm model. Theres nothing about an animation and theyre more or less a dead end. So i guess the question is whether or not theyre referenced by a text file anywhere.

They are referenced in descr_settlement_plan.txt. Unsurprising.

[shifty157]

If placing the correct textures into the correct folder does not fix the problem of the palms not showing up correctly then what youll have to do is combine the textures that are referenced into a single texture. Send the texture to me and ill edit the .CAS file to only reference the one texture and ill send that back to you. Im positive they will show up fine then.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Ok, this is what the palm_tree_2_high.cas looks like then:

https://img304.imageshack.us/img304/6704/palmproblem14vt.th.jpg (https://img304.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmproblem14vt.jpg)

You can see the leaves look good, but the trunk is messed up badly. It seems like all the elements are there, but it's just got some problem alligning it.

When I try palm_tree_high.cas, it looks like the tga palmtop file is messing it up too much somehow:

https://img319.imageshack.us/img319/1204/palmproblem25bv.th.jpg (https://img319.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmproblem25bv.jpg)

The tree's trunk and leaves are totally messed up too - and the part at the ground isn't even touching. This is how it looked like too when I first made the change (without touching the tga.dds files except to copy them and move them over). Anyone have any ideas?

-------------------------------
Hmm. Thanks for the info on the BPI and item files. It's a shame though - trees 1 and 4 in my first image above were the coolest looking ones. I'd really love to have them. Can the item file (the upside down palm) be saved and flipped, and turned into a new CAS file that could be referenced separately?

[shifty157]

Well whats happening is that the game is only referencing a single texture file to apply to the tree instead of referencing all of them. The reason the tree looks so disfigured is not because the model has been warped but because of the alpha channel in the texture files is making certain parts of the tree invisible.

Youll have to do what I said above. Combine the relevant texture files intoa single texture file and send it to me. Ill edit the .cas file so that it references the new texture file and send it back to you. For my ease dont try to mess around with different parts and move stuff around when you create the texture. You can resize stuff but keep the parts of each texture together as they were. Thatll make reworking the UVW map a hell of alot easier. Dont forget to include the alpha channels in your texture.

This will work.

[shifty157]

Give me your email.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I'm trying to make the texture for it, but I've not ever done this before, so it's slow going. It's wilusa@yahoo.com

[shifty157]

Dont worry about it. Ill make the texture. Youll just have to resave the file because my alpha channel doesnt like to work.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Thanks! The more I look at it, the more that I think the second (brownish) palm I posted the image of above is actually the "palm #1" I mentioned in the first post. I wonder if 'swamp palm' is the "palm #3" I posted the image for too.

One thing that somehow they have gotten the palms to do in the cities is to be really really tall. They're very nice that way, but I don't know if it's possible to have that ration on the battlemap (it looks like the trunk is the part that is reduplicated over and over to make it tall, not the whole texture stretched). Anyway, if we can get the two we are talking about here to work that would be terrific.

[shifty157]

Modified palm_tree_high model and texture sent to your email. Check it out while I put together palm_tree_2_high.

[Dol Guldur]

This is going well I think.

I could not help but think of what you were doing when I came across this today (from the quotations of Chivalry: Total War) -

Let all be present and expect the palm, the prize of victory - Virgil

Most fitting!

:)

[shifty157]

palm_tree_2_high is sent.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, we will probably need to work on the type of ground coloring for this (newly altered) climate type - but we now have two palm trees working thanks to shifty. :2thumbsup: :balloon2: Here are a couple of screenshots - and I'll go ahead and leak something else, as I'm pretty happy about seeing the palms in there too. You see below the palms a (definitely still) battlemap WIP GUI for the Eastern Hellenes (culture group) (worked on by Forgus and myself - so I think I can post it without getting into too much trouble :grin:).

https://img420.imageshack.us/img420/5848/palmsmixed16it.th.jpg (https://img420.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmsmixed16it.jpg) https://img420.imageshack.us/img420/3906/palmsmixed20pz.th.jpg (https://img420.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmsmixed20pz.jpg)

One other thing though shifty:
-could you make sure the tga.dds files that are referenced in the cas files are in models_vegetation/textures instead of vegetation/textures ? That would be the more correct place to put them it seems. I had to put them in vegetation/textures for the time being, but the cas files are in models_vegetation/textures.

It would be great to get some undergrowth in there. Anyone know how to do that? What do you all think about the height of the trees and variation in size? Are they appropriate? One issue is that the taller I make them, the wider they get too - which seems unrealistic. I would like taller ones I think though. This is the numbers I'm currently using for the above shots:

vegetation semi_arid_dense_forest
{
layout 384 forest_layout.tga
radius 1
height_range 0.4 1.5
aspect_range 0.7 1.3
lod trees
model sa_tree_02
model sa_tree_03
}

Anyone know what would be appropriate ground colors or shading for this landscape now? Seems like we are only going to use it where palms are - oases, along rivers and in pretty flat places.

[shifty157]

palm_swamp_tree is sent.

Ok. Ill change the .cas files to change the texture paths. Ill have to egt those to you later though. I have to leave now.

I can also make taller trees. That isnt a problem. But again ill have to do that later.

Amazing UI by the way. Really impressive.

[Foot]

They are looking really good there! It really adds some much needed character to the otherwise desolate places.

Foot

[paullus]

Excellent! Very exciting stuff shifty's been doing for EB...I wanna know what else y'all have up your sleeves.

[Dol Guldur]

Good work, yes.

[shifty157]

I cant really tell from the screenshots. How did the alpha channel work out? I can redo the textures if it doesnt look that great. I kind of rushed through them.

Ill have more stuff for you later tonight.


Ok. On a bit of testing Ive realized that the .CAS importer/exporter writes the texture path as always "(model path)/textures/". At least so it would seem. Does anyone know more about Vercingetorix's cas importer/exporter to tell me exactly how this works? I guess I could take a look at the script itself as im not completely illiterate to code but i have other things to work on.

TA. Try testing it out by moving the .CAS file to another folder and seeing what happens.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I think the alpha channels worked pretty well. It really doesn't matter that much if the textures have to go in the other file - we just have to keep track of them.

-----------------------------------------------
Ground: Looking for some multiple reference images to think about how to arrange these trees, and then what the ground should look like here too. Here are a number:

http://www.a101avn.org/Palm%20Trees%20in%20Iraq.JPG
http://www.galen-frysinger.ws/egypt/nile34.jpg
http://www.galen-frysinger.ws/egypt/nile27.jpg
http://www.trincoll.edu/~greger/Ra%20I%20--%20Banks%20of%20the%20Nile,%20Palms,%20Minaret.JPG
http://www.trincoll.edu/~greger/Palm%20trees%20against%20desert%20rocks,%20Nileside.JPG
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~e118/photo-gallery/Libya-UbariSS/Images/Maafu_Oasis1.jpg
http://www.galen-frysinger.com/North%20Africa/tunisia13.jpg
http://www.alentejodigital.pt/rosadopereira/tunisia/Chebikha/Tunisia2001_0909_094018AA.JPG
http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/2706as03%20Morocco.jpg
http://www.galen-frysinger.com/middle_east/oman48.jpg
http://images.myphotoalbum.com/c/ck/cke/cker/ckeri/ckerickson/albums/album01/34_Palm_Trees_on_the_Backwaters.sized.jpg

And then also a map for palm distribution (to ensure we don't have them outside these zones):
http://www.geo.arizona.edu/Antevs/ecol438/palms.gif

I think currently the semi_arid ground textures are too 'gray' compared to what this terrain should be. This is the placement of the semi_arid climate in EB:
https://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5770/semiaridzones5vp.th.jpg (https://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=semiaridzones5vp.jpg)

I think we will cut some of the steppe lands out, and maybe some of the upper nile ones too.

--------------------------
Size:

Well, maybe they don't need to be much taller after all. Here is a fairly regular sized palm I think, then our palm:

https://img123.imageshack.us/img123/6977/palmman2fv.jpg https://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7332/palmman29oq.jpg

I suppose they are comparable. But ours may have too much variation in size and height. That pic from in-game is of the biggest palm I could find. It would be great if we could assign these different palms to different semi_arid types (one for swamp, one for forest, etc.), but I don't see how that is possible. At least I haven't found it yet - there are just forests or not forests it seems. But we will need to group them together more tightly for sure - palms don't grow this far apart when they do grow.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Thicker - and now with a third palm type!
https://img157.imageshack.us/img157/8835/palmsmixed31sc.th.jpg (https://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmsmixed31sc.jpg)
Can't wait to get some undergrowth in there too - not the obstructing kind - just bushes and things (if possible).

[shifty157]

Awesome work. That looks absolutely amazing.

Check your email. I think youll be happy with what you find.

(Hint: three new palms (six total) and all of the models working off of a single master texture.)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

A little taste of some of the palms in battle: :grin:

https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7818/jungle16za.th.jpg (https://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle16za.jpg) https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7766/jungle28cb.th.jpg (https://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle28cb.jpg) https://img123.imageshack.us/img123/3653/jungle31zu.th.jpg (https://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle31zu.jpg) https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7610/jungle45qg.th.jpg (https://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle45qg.jpg) https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6351/jungle54om.th.jpg (https://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle54om.jpg)

https://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2729/jungle68lf.th.jpg (https://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle68lf.jpg) https://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5760/jungle78yq.th.jpg (https://img248.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle78yq.jpg) https://img123.imageshack.us/img123/296/jungle86ph.th.jpg (https://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle86ph.jpg) https://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4228/jungle92en.th.jpg (https://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle92en.jpg) https://img123.imageshack.us/img123/4764/jungle100nu.th.jpg (https://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jungle100nu.jpg)

I didn't win that mammoth affair (played as Maks). My lines fell apart and eventually I fell back into a square on top of lots of other bodies and was overwhelmed by the numbers of Indians. My two units of hetairoi got caught up trying to break through the initial lines to their general and routed with just a few men left.

[Kull]

Wow! That is just incredible! You guys have taken a "concept" and turned it into a thing of stunning beauty inside of a few days. Shifty and Dave, my hat is off to you both! :flowers:

[Radier]

Great work guys! :2thumbsup:

[Angadil]

Absolutely outstanding!~:thumb:

[Ergion]

Fantastic work mates :)

[Cybvep]

It's great, although the textures could be sharper... Anyway, well done!

I have a question: Will you change other trees and will you change more things in vegetation? I think that especially sprites for tress in Germania look terrible and that this should be the first thing to change.

[edyzmedieval]

:jawdrop:

Hands off TA,Shifty and Forgus. :balloon2:

:flowers:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's great, although the textures could be sharper... Anyway, well done!

I have a question: Will you change other trees and will you change more things in vegetation? I think that especially sprites for tress in Germania look terrible and that this should be the first thing to change.
I've really had a hard time grasping the way the code works with vegetation and all the different files and LOD's and Billboards and all this other stuff (including dealing with CAS, etc.) that you need to mess with to make big changes. That's in addition to the problem of the db not regenerating for new climate types (just stupid that it won't). I want to get this revised climate type working well, and get this in the game, and I'd love to get swamps combined with some of these more tropical climates to have thick swamps (currently all swamps are totally flat - just dumb). But I don't know if it's possible. To be honest, I'll probably just work with the issues I'm interested in fixing though. If we had someone who knew how to deal with all of these things, EB would really be able to pull some more amazing things off I think, but we don't, and we're generally pretty ignorant (well, not generally, but just we plain are) in dealing with these vegetation and climate matters. This is a huge aid for us (getting shifty to help with the models) and it shows what just a couple of motivated people can do in a short time. We'll see what else happens. If there was a way to have palms (we have 6 working models now I think - not all fully implemented though) in different situations and ground types and such, it would be much better actually. Forests vs. clumps, etc.

[Ludens]

~:thumb:

[shifty157]

If you want me to edit any of the models then just tell me.

[Dol Guldur]

This project is the perfect example of why cross-mod forums would I feel create a synergy and relationship between mods and skilled modders and benefit one and all, taking modding forward faster than it would otherwise grow. The public forums tend to fail in these project in part due to dilution of unskilled and new members.

No doubt some will disagree. ;)

Kudos to you both - it is exciting when you make a discovery or get something working like this.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I'm hoping within a week or two we can have it all worked out - but it won't just be code changes that need posting - it will need shifty's models and textures too (the changes to vanilla models technically). It'll get posted then though; I asked for public help, and though it was someone who works a lot with EB who wound up helping the most, still it'd be going back on my word to make this available to other mods if we tried to keep it inside EB till a full release (and I'd be a hypocrite if something I've gotten quite angry about that others did was something I decided to do too). This however does depend upon shifty's agreeing, but since he's not in EB I would think he would be fine with it.

[shifty157]

Im perfectly fine with releasing this as a separate thing for use in other mods or on its own.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

FYI: Hard code limit

Looks like we can only have four tree models used at a time without causing a CTD. That is the max number of models vanilla used too, so it's not surprising. There may be more 'stacked' on top of other climate types (you can use another as a 'base'), but at least with one climate type itself, the most we can do is have 4.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Shifty, I think one way we might be able to get undergrowth is to make the palm_swamp_tree.cas model into a much smaller version as an additional model. It can still reference the same texture, but if it were roughly 1/3 the size that it is now (maybe 1/4 ?) it could serve as a good undergrowth type of tree.

There are two different categories for the palms as I see it: two of the palms are 'desert oasis' palms - with very light color bark and bright canopies, and four of them (two of these four are the same, except one version is much much taller) are more the kind you would find in 'groves' of palms. They are darker on the canopies and have darker trunks too. These would be combined perfectly for two different types of palms on the battlemap too if we could figure it out. A way to keep the thick ones together and a way to keep the desert ones on a different type of terrain. Hmmmm...

Here are the six types as I can see them now:
https://img427.imageshack.us/img427/4452/palmtypes8go.th.jpg (https://img427.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palmtypes8go.jpg)

[shifty157]

Since there's a hardcode limit I can make small groves of trees in each .CAS file. About 3 or 4 trees in each. Its a thought.

If you want me to modify the models at all dont hesitate to tell me. Are the sizes ok (the heights look ok with eachother)?

Do undergrowth and trees have different entries or do they both have to use the same one?

Arent there different entries for dense and sparse vegetation?

You say you can stack climate types. If theres a climate type that you aren't using, you can have it map out the undergrowth properly and then combine it with the climate youre using for the trees. I assume the undergrowth is much thicker than the trees. Also you dont want little shrubs taking the place of larger tree models.

[GMT]

Awesome guys! :2thumbsup:


This however does depend upon shifty's agreeing, but since he's not in EB I would think he would be fine with it.

he isn't?? ~:eek:

Why not? I'm sure EB could use a guy with his skills.

[Lusted]

How long do you think it will take for you to have a working version released for othe rmods TA? I do realise this is compicated, having had a look at the files myself and getting thoroughly confused.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I think it's more that I'd like to get the 6 types working two ways (since some are clearly desert palms and some are more a forest palm). Having thick clustered dark palms for one type, and thin bright palms for another would be perfect, but I worked for hours yesterday on the code and I can't get any trees in swamps or sandy desert yet (two very viable candidates - under certain situations). It would be nice if someone other than shifty who knows the code could help figure things out (I'm asking in the tutorial for vegetation too, but... : https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=60901&page=2).

I'd also really rather get the ground colors to work better too with the palms. It's too light underneath them now - in a palm forest the ground shouldn't be just a little darker gray than outside it.

As for shifty - he has preferred to help us out so far without being a member, but if he'd have EB membership very quickly if he wanted it. :grin:

[shifty157]

Ok. I took a quick look over the text files. Whats the difference between "scrub" and "forest"? Are they used separately as different climate types or are they both applied to the same climate type?

I wonder if its possible to add a climate type. It may be well worth your effort to try that out.

In the climate entries it states "lod trees" and then lists the models. Im wondering if within the same entry, after you define the trees if you could add "lod shrubs" and list some more models.

My guess is that perhaps its hardcoded that the swamp and desert cant have trees. Can they have shrubs though? You could list the tree models as shrubs. Of course then you wouldnt have shrubs though.

I think itd be a good idea if i joined the team officially so that i could communicate directly with everyone about my buildings and make the necessary changes.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

That sounds good. In your control panel, select EB membership, and then when the EB directors have a chance to read over the post (I posted something on this internally), we will get it worked out.

That's a good idea - putting trees in the scrub terrain. I don't know if it would really work, but I hadn't thought about it, so at least we can keep it in mind. I really still don't understand all of this - and it seems like no new climates can work in game as long as no one has parsed the geography.db file though.

[shifty157]

Yeah. Not being able to edit descr_geography is a major setback.

Try what I suggested before: "In the climate entries it states "lod trees" and then lists the models. Im wondering if within the same entry, after you define the trees if you could add "lod shrubs" and list some more models."

I doubt if it will work but its worth a shot. If it worked that would give you much more space for models.

[shifty157]

Have you done any more work on these TA?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Hehe. I have been working on GUI's and trying to get graphics for buildings (2d stuff) working for port, and haven't tried anything new the last couple of days with the palms. I may this weekend, but I'm juggling too much right now and need to clean some of it off my plate so I can concentrate on other stuff.

[shifty157]

Thats fine. I was just wondering. Hell what youve done already is good enough to be used in any mod.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Had to post a screenie. :grin: One of my new favorites.

https://img108.imageshack.us/img108/7391/palms17jq.th.jpg (https://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=palms17jq.jpg)

[GMT]

Nice! Sweet UI too!

By the way, isn't that Numidia's flag? :oops:

So are they back in the game?

[Equilibrium]

No, numidia's definately not back in the game...but 2 other great new factions(one replacing the ahistorical yuezhi) are. I guess the flag is just something that results from TA playin around with the gui.