New E3 video (handcam) [Archive]

Peasant Phill

06-05-2006, 12:40

Some comments (may have been mentioned before) about the video in which you see the muskets fire.

-The giant canon: so 1 shot of a canon (or mortar or whatever) can destroy a whole unit of knights with just one shot? And the accuracy of the shot, smack in the middle of the group (in one shot).

-the routing sprinters: a Turkish unit routs and clears a distance of several yards in record breaking time with all of their equipment.

-the ghost knights: When the cavalry hit an infantry unit head on (on several occasions) they just went straight through it, like slicing through butter. It made me think of the ghost army in LOTR, they didn't even lose speed. One moment you could see the infantries backs, the next nanosecond this view was obscured by all the horses.

-dry rain: It was clearly raining in the video, but it had no effect on the battle itself. Archers could use fire arrows (why would one even want to do that when it's raining) and musketeers could fire without any problems. It was really pouring but making fire was apparently no problem.

Hopefully this was just a promotion video and not the real game. I believe it is as there are a lot of 'movie' shots in it (like the shots of the big canon when it was still inactive). But still it doesn't look good for M2TW and just lets hope that our great modding community can fix enough for the game to be somewhat realistic.

edyzmedieval

06-05-2006, 14:52

I really doubt the speed is that high. I think the guy pushed fast forward or something. I refuse to believe it's that high(the unit speed). :no:

Anyhow, I still love MTW2 and I will surely buy it. :2thumbsup:

Peasant Phill

06-05-2006, 15:10

I really doubt the speed is that high. I think the guy pushed fast forward or something. I refuse to believe it's that high(the unit speed). :no:

Well I thougt of that too but we wont know for sure untill the demo comes out.

Lord Adherbal

06-05-2006, 19:03

The giant canon: so 1 shot of a canon (or mortar or whatever) can destroy a whole unit of knights with just one shot? And the accuracy of the shot, smack in the middle of the group (in one shot).

oh yeah I forgot to complain about that tactical nuke, it must've shocked me so much that it was automatically erased from my mind to avoid a trauma.

Gustav II Adolf

06-05-2006, 19:48

Yea, the video looks cool but it must be a case of overpromoting the action in the game. With that unit speed and nuke stuff the game would stop beeing in the total war genre. But if this is the real deal then i´m afraid ca will loose a lot of the current fans.

-

econ21

06-05-2006, 21:01

There was similar stuff with the trailers for RTW - IIRC, elephants and flaming onagers appeared extremely lethal, overpowering even. It looks dramatic, even if it offends the "historical realism" school (of which I am a member). In the actual game, elephants and onagers are still nasty but don't unbalance it terribly - in part because they are so rare. I rather like fighting elephants in RTW - they are one of the few real AI threats. AI onagers, I never seem to encounter unless attacking the Senate. I don't bring them myself as I want the strategic mobility (and they are largely unhistorical in field battles). So I predict very powerful cannons will exist in M2TW but they will probably appear rather late in the game when most players have given up and restarted another campaign.

edyzmedieval

06-05-2006, 21:33

I'm part of the Historical Realism school, but it doesn't change much if a big bunch of forumers want historical realism. :no:

CA decides what they include in the game, not us. :shame:

Furious Mental

06-06-2006, 04:44

It's true that the onagers and elephants were rather overdone in the trailers, but this doesn't appear to be a trailer to me. Although personally I'm not too worried because I expect it should be easy enough to mod out the nuclear artillery shells. I just hope it doesn't represent the developers' attitude to the game overall. If I want some enjoyably ludicrous gameplay I'll stick on GTA: SA.

nameless

06-06-2006, 05:12

Well hope for the best then.

Callahan9119

06-06-2006, 09:07

cannons, elephant cannone, whatever...its the unit SPEED that is the worst...if it ships in any kind of state we have seen in all the trailers it stops being TW and becomes a aoe, ron imitation

i dont mind taking liberty with history regarding units....its a game, the modders will make it accurate....but the gameplay is taking a bad turn

as someone who has played since STW i looked forward to rtw more than i do mtw2, who knows maybe they will suprise me and honor the original concept of this series.

pretty sure its mostly new devs working on this :scared:

x-dANGEr

06-06-2006, 09:49

Am quite tired of this discussion, "RTW is a clickfest game", "It isn't RTW, it is AoE..", "RTW is a RTS..".. And I've gone through it many times. Stop liking RTW to AoE, in AoE their is no shield wall/flanking that matters/charge/hold/wedge/morale/general.. You're simply bashing RTW, at least IMO; liking RTW to a game with no strategies/tactics is simply like liking a modern US tank to a late 60's Iraqi one..

I haven't seen the video, but as long as the speeds are like RTW's, am fine with it..

Lord Adherbal

06-06-2006, 11:09

Stop liking RTW to AoE, in AoE their is no shield wall/flanking that matters/charge/hold/wedge/morale/general

RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for disorganised formations
RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for placing units on top of eachother
RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for units that are flanked or surrounded
RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for loose formation
RTW doesnt have a combat bonus for wedge formation

what was that you were saying ?

naut

06-06-2006, 11:19

When the units engage each other, :dizzy2: . Its crazy, there guys jumping and all sorts of crazy graphic movements.

I hope the unit speed is easy to mod slower! Because those knights break the sound barrier.

EDIT: I think we should ensure peoples opinions are respected.

TB666

06-06-2006, 11:52

It's true that the onagers and elephants were rather overdone in the trailers, but this doesn't appear to be a trailer to me.
The elephants and onagers were overpowered like hell in the RTW gameplay movies too. This was as some people have pointed out a scripted battle.
The badboy cannon was suppose to wipe the knights out to give them a "glorious" end. While I don't doubt this cannon will be powerful in the final game, it will most likely be very inaccurate.

RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for units that are flanked or surrounded
Yes there was.
The morale dropped if the soldiers were surrounded and even more when they were flanked.

x-dANGEr

06-06-2006, 12:20

Adherbal']RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for disorganised formations
RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for placing units on top of eachother
RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for units that are flanked or surrounded
RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for loose formation
RTW doesnt have a combat bonus for wedge formation

what was that you were saying ?
What RTW are you talking about? Have you ever played RTW?

RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for placing units on top of eachotherSays who? It doesn't have to have a 'stats' penalty to have a penalty, it surely does have a gameplay one. (You get hit by more arrows, you are easier to flank, you are easier to surround (Morale Penalty))

RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for units that are flanked or surroundedCombat Penalty? No, other ones? Hell yes.. At least, why should their be a combat penalty? Isn't the 'not-calculated Shield + Defence Skill' through attacks from the back enough? Not considering the big 'morale' penalty..

RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for loose formationWho told you so? I remember even the guide in the game says it has..

RTW doesnt have a combat bonus for wedge formationNo it doesn't, but it doesn't need to to make Wedge any useful, I'm sorry if you want an ability to just click and go.. Wedge in RTW has a sense, and is used to break formations, rather than "Wow, it gives + 5 attack.."

The bottom line, sure some things aren't like M: TW; with the simple +4/-2 stats effects, it is quite deeper than that, and if you tend to not see or go through the game so deep, am sorry, but you then aren't qualified to judge it. Penalties/bonuses doesn't need to be +5/-2.. The wedge formation for example: You can use a Wedged Clib to go through a Chosen Axemen unit with least casualties messing the Chosen Axemen units, making it vulnerable to a charge from another Cav unit to put an end to it's misery.

econ21

06-06-2006, 12:23

Adherbal'][1] RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for disorganised formations
[2] RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for placing units on top of eachother
[3] RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for units that are flanked or surrounded
[4] RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for loose formation
[5] RTW doesnt have a combat bonus for wedge formation

AFAIK, we did lose [2] moving from MTW to RTW but I think you are being a little misleading on the other points.

Re [1] There is no "disorganised" state per se in TW. But
(a) a strung out formation - eg one pursuing a routing enemy - will tend to do worse than an ordered one, because its men will get into combat piecemeal with a more concentrated opponent
(b) a stationary braced formation can cope with a cavalry charge better than a "disorganised" one.
(3) disorganisation severely hampers phalanxes
(4) the "hold formation" button captures some aspects of being in proper formation - your defence is higher, but your attack is reduced

Re [3] This is wrong because:
(a) the morale penalties to being flanked etc are very severe
(b) individual soldiers have facing and cutting at one's flank or back does increase kill chances (and stops your target striking back until they turn about)

Re [4] Does there need to be a "penalty"? In loose formation, you will get fewer men into contact with an enemy and hence kill less (be killed more) in melee.

Re [5] Are you sure of this? In STW and MTW, wedge raised attack and lowered defence. I would assume it's the same in RTW.

Duke John

06-06-2006, 12:29

What RTW are you talking about?
Which Adherbal are you talking about? :laugh4: Adherbal not having played RTW, that is a good one.

x-dANGEr

06-06-2006, 13:23

AFAIK, we did lose [2] moving from MTW to RTW but I think you are being a little misleading on the other points.

Re [1] There is no "disorganised" state per se in TW. But
(a) a strung out formation - eg one pursuing a routing enemy - will tend to do worse than an ordered one, because its men will get into combat piecemeal with a more concentrated opponent
(b) a stationary braced formation can cope with a cavalry charge better than a "disorganised" one.
(3) disorganisation severely hampers phalanxes
(4) the "hold formation" button captures some aspects of being in proper formation - your defence is higher, but your attack is reduced

Re [3] This is wrong because:
(a) the morale penalties to being flanked etc are very severe
(b) individual soldiers have facing and cutting at one's flank or back does increase kill chances (and stops your target striking back until they turn about)

Re [4] Does there need to be a "penalty"? In loose formation, you will get fewer men into contact with an enemy and hence kill less (be killed more) in melee.

Re [5] Are you sure of this? In STW and MTW, wedge raised attack and lowered defence. I would assume it's the same in RTW.
Ogh, I forgot to reply to his first note, but anyway, you seem to have covered it.
Also:

RTW doesnt have a combat penalty for disorganised formations

First, you will lose control of your units, try this:
Go ERE and your friend ERE rebels, you get 10 plumbs and he gets 5 clibs. Now you turn fire at will off, and let his clibs walk through your infantry, look how missed will your infantry be, try to organise them then..

Second, you will be to easy to crush. After doing what I said above, let your friend charge your army with 5 Equite CATAS after it has been dis-organised. All he needs to do is retreat and charge again, till you're done.

Furious Mental

06-06-2006, 15:08

At least in alot of screenshots the armies seem to be in formation. I am aware, though, that screenshots can be and often are staged.

sunsmountain

06-06-2006, 16:45

Though all of those 5 points ARE actually covered in the game RTW, it doesn't really matter because of the low overall morale: Units will soon start routing regardless, and fighting will not last long enough for simple +3 or -4 or whatever to influence anything.

The longest fighting i have seen is between 2 units of spartan hoplites, and even that was over way too soon to my taste. So what should I do now? Increase the hitpoints of all units? Increase the morale? That means a penalty for all the units that had high morale/hitpoints to begin with...

I don't even mind the marching/charging speeds, it's a game after all. you can define speeds to be what they are, and these are motion captured animations. Make the battlemap larger and you will be glad to cross it faster. It would be nice to have a little more time to maneuver though, so use Pause...

From the looks of it the knights in MTW2 are even faster than the cavalry was in RTW...

Lord Adherbal

06-06-2006, 16:59

What RTW are you talking about? Have you ever played RTW?

even tho I have no actual prove that bonuses/penalties don't exist, I've done more then enough tests and stat modding to conclude that even if there are penalties they have virtually no effect.
You speak about morale penalty for being surrounded. That is correct. But an elite unit will hardly care about being surrounded by lesser units, just gives them more opponents to slaughter. Even if they are "wavering" they still kill their opponents at a happy pace as if nothing is wrong.
This also leads to the problems with point 2: lack of a penalty for bunched up units: you can surround them all you like, but if those units are better then yours they'll still slaughter you. One of the reasons why cav spamming is so effective in RTW.

And about disorganised units, even if a shield wall formation is completly messed up with soldiers all over the place they still have their combat bonuses.

x-dANGEr

06-06-2006, 20:27

I don't know about their combat bonuses, haven't gone through the engine as you may have.. But I know that they drop like flies when disorganized, and if not, they kill no one.

@Battles lasting long issue: I remember my last MP battle before I travelled, I had my 10 Urbans VS my enemies 10 First cohorts fighting for more than 50 minutes.. (The game was on the largest size..). Why? Because no flanking/strategical things happened during the game, because it was a siege and in sieges it is so hard to do such things.

econ21

06-06-2006, 22:47

Some of the modifiers may be unimportant (I and most posters I've read have no time for the wedge formation, for example) but flanking is utterly devastating in RTW as in other TW games. I am amazed that anyone could suggest otherwise. It is the number one battle winning tactic in the game.

Flanking is particularly important to use against elites. Try fighting Roman infantry in Rome Total Realism Gold or gestatae in EB. Go head to head and you're in for a world of pain. Pin them with spears, charge cavalry into their rear and they can crumble. The morale modifiers are very severe, even when units have sky high morale (as in RTR Gold).

RTW has its problems, but in terms of modifiers and combat mechanics etc, it is pretty impressive, IMO. The problems I perceive on the battlefield are more to do with AI tactics than with the underlying engine. Some simple tweaks could go a long way.

Lord Adherbal

06-07-2006, 10:57

charge cavalry into their rear and they can crumble. The morale modifiers are very severe, even when units have sky high morale (as in RTR Gold).

cavalry, yes. Because their charge is high and they come in fast. The result is a lot of enemies receive the charge in the back ("defence skill" and "shield" bonuses don't count) and thus die on impact. Combined with the morale penalty for being flanks the enemy unit is likely to rout. But if it doesn't - thats when the problem arises. Even tho the enemy might be scared shitless ("wavering" morale) they still dont get any combat penalty (as in becoming less effective at killing or defending), so if they are much better then your units they'll still slaughter yours.

In S/MTW flanking was important because it scared and paniced the enemy resulting in poor combat performance and likely defeat. That's what I call realistic.
In RTW flanking is powerfull only at the initial charge (infantry won't do very good at that either). If you can't rout the unit on impact or do tremedous casualties so it routs soon after, you're in trouble. This also causes battles to end so fast: flanking is ment to instantly rout units (and as said before, a surrounded unit that routs is completly destroyed in a second or 2), not to decrease there combat performance.

x-dANGEr

06-07-2006, 11:55

But really, they still die like flees when sandwiched.. Attack a phalanx from the front with some infantry unit and flank with another, and see for yourself.

Lord Adherbal

06-07-2006, 12:40

there's a world of difference between a phalanx and another unit. A phalanx is virtually indestructable when attacked head-on, while they're actualy quite poor units. I don't see how that's a valid arguement.

screwtype

06-07-2006, 13:04

Surrounded units are annihilated so fast in RTW that sometimes I've been very confused about where the heck they went!

I remember one battle on a mountain between just a handful of units where I carefully maneouvred my one unit of cavalry behind the enemy unit, and charged into their rear. I swear, the entire enemy unit just disappeared in a puff of smoke!

I was still mousing my way around the battlefield, trying to figure out where they all went, LOL. That's happened to me more than once playing RTW. You don't get anything like that in STW/MTW.

econ21

06-07-2006, 13:09

Surrounded units are annihilated so fast in RTW that sometimes I've been very confused about where the heck they went!

Yes, I think that's one of the main advantages of the "guard" formation - it stops your men chasing off after routers and then getting surrounded and massacred.

It can happen very quickly - too quickly for me at an aesthetic level - but in single player, it does not seem so bad. The inability of the human to micromanage everything actually leads to somethings that simulate the real life confusion of war[1] and gives the AI a little edge to compensate for its follies.

[1] Losing units that hare off after routers reminds me of the English at Hastings for example.

x-dANGEr

06-07-2006, 13:19

Adherbal']there's a world of difference between a phalanx and another unit. A phalanx is virtually indestructable when attacked head-on, while they're actualy quite poor units. I don't see how that's a valid arguement.
I took the phalanx as an example, but didn't limit it to them. Try any unit..

THOUGH, if one note is to be said about RTW, I think it would be upgrades.. Get an urban, upgrade it to the limits and see how it strikes down hordes of units easily.. Annoying.

One game, 2 of my Sith mates were having a 1 on 1, and I was watching, I took 2 'Clibinarii Immortals' and upgraded them gold weapon/armor and + 3 valour. After the battle was done, WRE has won, and it had 5 legions left, I charged them head on and killed them all.. Weird eh? Superman anyone?

Lord Adherbal

06-07-2006, 17:27

Surrounded units are annihilated so fast in RTW that sometimes I've been very confused about where the heck they went!

not sure if this is supposed as an arguement against my "surrounded units dont get combat penalty" point, but if it is, make sure you read this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1162153&postcount=34)

screwtype

06-08-2006, 08:53

Adherbal']not sure if this is supposed as an arguement against my "surrounded units dont get combat penalty" point, but if it is, make sure you read this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1162153&postcount=34)

No, it wasn't, Aderbhal, and in fact I very much agree with your comments. It's the tendency of AI units which are attacked from the rear to just vanish in an instant in RTW which is what bothers me, but you've obviously worked out in greater detail what is happening here. I too agree that routing in STW/MTW was better handled.

screwtype

06-08-2006, 09:05

The inability of the human to micromanage everything actually leads to somethings that simulate the real life confusion of war[1] and gives the AI a little edge to compensate for its follies.

[1] Losing units that hare off after routers reminds me of the English at Hastings for example.

One can always find rationalizations for substandard game mechanics. The point, as you yourself have noted in your comment about aesthetics, is that the insta-collapse of units just doesn't feel right. Nor is it fun to play.

And IMO, this phenomenon is generally much more helpful to the human player than to the AI, so I don't agree that it's giving the AI "a little edge to compensate for its follies". I guess if you play without using the pause button it might do, but that is not my style of play, especially with RTW, where everything happens so quickly that it just becomes a frantic clickfest if you don't use pause.

Lord Adherbal

06-08-2006, 10:15

The point, as you yourself have noted in your comment about aesthetics, is that the insta-collapse of units just doesn't feel right.

it also allows you to role up the whole enemy line after routing one flank unit. In MTW, the routing men would not turn into sugar so they would atleast block your flanking unit(s) for a short while.

I also remember how cool chainrouts were in MTW (esp in MP ~;)). You broke a flank and the resulting morale drop and routing unit triggered one enemy unit after the other to rout, until the entire army ran for their lives. Watching your men chase that huuuge amount of men was just beautiful. In RTW most of the routers die before they manage to turn around (oh thats another problem I need to mension: a routing unit turns around 180°, making the left side soldiers run to the right and vise versa - instead of running away from the enemy. result: the enemy walks through the routing unit and kills almost every one of them before they start running away from the enemy), so you don't get to see this anymore. But I guess killing 90% of the enemy army every time has it's "charms" too...