Hit Points

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So, I got to thinking about why battles are over so quickly in RTW, I remembered that the guys said they taking out the double hitpoints on bodyguards and I got to thinking:

Why not give every unit 3, or even 4 hp. In real life not everyone dies from a single wound. It would slow down combat, make pikes less imortal because some of the guys get past them and it would make arrows more effective for softening up a unit, with raised attack stats, of course.

Just mull it over.

Now I have an exam on "Literature of Reason" in about 13 hours so, I'm going to knuckle down, which is incidently why I haven't really been around.

[Greek_fire19]

mmm, well the first reason against it is that it makes archers pretty useless. Since archery fire can only take off one hitpoint it means that the first volley of any unit against even the most useless of enemies will never kill anyone. same goes for javelin units. Makes it pretty much impossible to play as a horse archer nation and gives a massive advantage to factions like the macedonians.

There are a whole bunch of other problems. one is that battles would take AGES to complete, plus it would mess up cavalry charges big time. For example, a unit of companion cavalry charges into a group of peasants, and for the first ten seconds...nobody dies. Stuff like that.

[Dayve]

I made my own little modifications a few months ago... I gave every unit in the game +10 defence skill, because defence skill doesn't affect missle units, and i gave them all +10 morale as well, except for missle units who i gave only +5 defence skill and morale... Battles were awesome... Each unit would slog it out for at least 3 minutes before routing, provided they weren't flanked or something and battles lasted an enjoyable amount of time... This was in Barbarian Invasion... I also removed some units i didn't like like ballista chariots and monks... I wanted to give some units the "bonus versus cavalry" ability, like the all but pointless Roman Limitanei unit, but i could never get it to work.

[Kralizec]

If all units were to get multiple HP, then missile units and particulary javelins should get a "lucky shot" attribute that takes away 2 HP or more.
Of course soldiers would not die from minor wounds, but it would decrease their ability to fight and run effectively. That can't be represented in RTW.

In the end, lowering attack + increasing defense + decreasing lethality is probably a more nuanced way of dealing with kill speeds.

[Birka Viking]

I think that EBs battle are wery great as they are exept one thing.. why cant every soldiers get better moral so they dont rout so fast???Other wise its avesome..

[QwertyMIDX]

If there is a general feeling that troops are routing too fast I can certinly make them route less quickly.

[abou]

It might be the general's attributes. There are a lot more traits than in the vanilla version so a certain general might have several negative modifiers.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well it was a thought at least, seems to me there are arguements for and against.

The exam went fine, thanks for asking :)

[Tuuvi]

This doesn't really fix the battle time, but at the end of the battle in the battle stats screen there is a section that says "casualties healed" which means that casualties in RTW not only represent kills but wounds also.

[NightStar]

I have rarely had the problem of units routing too quickly, not even when flanked. But then I again I always, unless in dire emergencies, have generals commanding the battle.

As for the adversaries, their units often fight to the last man.

[Ludens]

Greek_fire19 pretty much summed up my arguments. Though indeed not all wounds are mortal, some of them of them are. Giving all units multiple hitpoints makes it impossible to kill them in one strike. Also, while a wound may not be mortal, they do slow a soldier down. Adding more hitpoints does not simulate this, and is therefor only applied to units that could shrug off serious wounds (e.g. the Gaesatae). Remember, a blow does not have to be lethal to incapacitate a soldier. Lastly, extra hitpoint increase the healing effect, which I would not like since I think that casualities are already skewed too much in favour of the victor. Instead, EB has reduced the weapons lethality so that a lot more blows knock over a soldier but do not kill him. The knocked-down soldier is vulnerable for a few moments, but can then proceed with fighting as if nothing has happened.


If there is a general feeling that troops are routing too fast I can certinly make them route less quickly.
I don't think they rout too fast, rather that the morale system is a bit fickle. Sometimes units rout immediatly when surrounded, and sometimes they keep on fighting for minutes. For example, in one battle I played multiple times I noticed that if I surrounded the enemy Armoured Silvershields from two sides with Outrunner Hoplites early in the battle, they would rout. However, if they managed to reach my line, they would fight off everything I threw at them from multiple directions. They difference was probably that in the first case the Silvershields were under fire by Slingers and Archers, while in the second case those could not target them anymore. I admit I haven't tested this, though. I have had very little opportunity to try out the latest patch.

Still, I think that if they do run, I can mop up the remaining soldiers far too easily if I have only a few cavalry units. This skews the casualty rates too much in favour of the victor. Is there nothing that can be done about that?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Still, I think that if they do run, I can mop up the remaining soldiers far too easily if I have only a few cavalry units. This skews the casualty rates too much in favour of the victor. Is there nothing that can be done about that?Don't hit the "Continue Battle" button... :wink:

[Ludens]

Don't hit the "Continue Battle" button... :wink:
I can't. Once the battle starts I see only a red mist...

Ahem, you are absolutely right, but it isn't not a perfect solution. If part of their army rallies, or if you rout them in stages you can still wipe out most enemy units. Well, I suppose nothing can be done about it, except for giving all units a huge armour bonus.

[Dayve]

I told you all... It's simple... Give all units +10 defence skill and +10 morale... Or a bit lower, or higher, depending on how long you like your battles to last. Defence skill doesn't affect the damage of missles.

[Cybvep]

I told you all... It's simple... Give all units +10 defence skill and +10 morale... Or a bit lower, or higher, depending on how long you like your battles to last. Defence skill doesn't affect the damage of missles.
This will not solve the problem of destroying 95% of enemy army with one cavalry unit, as bonus from "defence skill" doesn't make units more resistant to cavalry attacking their backs... IMO one cavalry unit should not be able to annihilate 90+% of enemy army. Well, maybe they should be able to ROUT entire army (after all, that happened in history, AFAIK), but not to DESTROY it.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

I can't. Once the battle starts I see only a red mist...Hehehe... :grin:


Ahem, you are absolutely right, but it isn't not a perfect solution. If part of their army rallies, or if you rout them in stages you can still wipe out most enemy units. Well, I suppose nothing can be done about it, except for giving all units a huge armour bonus.Well, a huge armour bonus will destroy the missile troops expectations to do any damage. So, it won't work...

[Cybvep]

What about decreasing the attack value of cavalry units and increasing their charge value? You know, technically, when cavalry units are "pursuing", they are not "charging"... Also, decreasing attack value and increasing charge value would force player to use cavalry in a more historical way (flank attacks and repeated charges). I'm not sure about the AI, though. Would it be smart enough to use cavalry in this way? Hmm...

[Ludens]

Well, a huge armour bonus will destroy the missile troops expectations to do any damage. So, it won't work...
Yep. I forgot to add that this solution may very well prove worse than the initial problem.


What about decreasing the attack value of cavalry units and increasing their charge value? You know, technically, when cavalry units are "pursuing", they are not "charging"... Also, decreasing attack value and increasing charge value would force player to use cavalry in a more historical way (flank attacks and repeated charges). I'm not sure about the AI, though. Would it be smart enough to use cavalry in this way? Hmm...
Though the A.I. can and will use its cavalry to flank if you give it enough time, it isn't smart enough to do an attack-retreat-attack-retreat cycle. I have seen A.I. cavalry in EB occasionaly retreat from combat to hit something else, but they always spend quite some time in the melee fight, so it won't work. This is a pity, because your idea seems quite sound. EDIT: it seems the EB balancer has different ideas on this, though. I hope it will work.

[QwertyMIDX]

What about decreasing the attack value of cavalry units and increasing their charge value? You know, technically, when cavalry units are "pursuing", they are not "charging"... Also, decreasing attack value and increasing charge value would force player to use cavalry in a more historical way (flank attacks and repeated charges). I'm not sure about the AI, though. Would it be smart enough to use cavalry in this way? Hmm...

Now that we have a build with charge bonuses that work we will do just that. Hopefully not so much that it really screws the AI up though.