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Duke Malcolm
06-04-2006, 20:46
So, I was reading my Sunday newspaper this morning (Scotland on Sunday, by the by), and I cam across this terribly interesting article.

Apparently, the Saviour of the Falklands is to be given a State Funeral.

Article (http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=824002006)

Blair plans state funeral for Thatcher
BRIAN BRADY
WESTMINSTER EDITOR (bdbrady@scotlandonsunday.com)
TONY Blair is backing a controversial plan to provide a state funeral for one of the Labour Party's most reviled enemies of recent decades: Margaret Thatcher.

Scotland on Sunday can reveal that civil servants have been working for months on the details of Baroness Thatcher's funeral, even though there is no suggestion the 80-year-old is suffering from any life-threatening condition.

But Blair believes Thatcher's eventual passing should be marked with the first state funeral for a commoner since Winston Churchill more than 40 years ago.

The proposal has astounded constitutional experts, who argue that - royalty aside - the honour is normally reserved for politicians who "saved the country at times of dire need".

The funeral plan has also sparked furious debate at the heart of the New Labour government, with a number of ministers opposing such a mark of respect for a Conservative Prime Minister.

The move is also likely to provoke a furious backlash from the grass roots of the party, where Thatcher is still detested for her stout opposition to the unions and policies in areas including employment, privatisation, gay rights and the Poll Tax during her 11 years in office.

One Labour MP last night claimed the proposal proved Blair and his advisers in Downing Street had "finally lost contact with reality".

The blueprint being drawn up within the Cabinet Office lays out a route for the funeral cortege through central London. It is believed it would take in Trafalgar Square, the scene of wild victory celebrations at the end of the Falklands War in 1982, and a riot against the Poll Tax seven years later. It would pass down Whitehall past Downing Street, her home from 1979 to 1990, on its way to the Houses of Parliament.

Past state funerals have involved a lying-in-state for several days in Westminster Hall, but it is believed that the plans for Thatcher favour a ceremonial route leading directly to a service at Westminster Abbey. St Paul's Cathedral is another option under consideration.

The state ceremony is a highly unusual move for any "commoner". Churchill was accorded the honour in 1965 in recognition of his leadership during the Second World War.

Planning for Churchill's funeral carried on for over a decade after he suffered a heart attack in 1953 and the Queen made it known she would like his contribution recognised in this in the proper fashion when he died. Over 300,000 people filed past his body as it lay in state in Westminster Hall and more than 100 foreign leaders attended his funeral service.

In recent years, former prime ministers, including Harold Wilson, Jim Callaghan and Edward Heath, have had lower-key funerals followed by memorial services at Westminster.

A government source last night said Blair had argued Baroness Thatcher deserved special treatment because of her "unique" contribution to British politics during the 1980s.

Blair is known to be an admirer of the 'Iron Lady', who is credited with helping to bring the Cold War to an end and ending the unions' domination of British industry. But she is remembered by opponents as a rigid leader who presided over rises in unemployment and poverty, and the decline of traditional industries, and who clamped down on civil rights.

Prof Richard Bellamy, an expert in the British constitution at Essex University, said the decision was "unusual". "The only two prime ministers that I can remember getting state funerals were Churchill and the Duke of Wellington.

"They could be seen as people who saved the country in times of dire need... It is hard to think of the Falklands as being in that category.

"The claim would be that she fundamentally altered the character of the British state, but we could say the same about Clement Attlee. I'm pretty gobsmacked that it's being considered. One can only assume that this is yet another example of Blair being totally out of step with the population, not to say his own party.

"I guess the fact that we have had a number of big funerals lately sort of lowers the benchmark; it becomes less of a rare event."

Glasgow Labour MP Iain Davidson predicted that the revelation would not go down well within the Labour Party.

He said: "Churchill at least was a unifying force. Thatcher was almost entirely a divisive influence."

Thatcher has suffered personal hardships in recent years. Her husband Denis died in 2003 and the following year their son, Sir Mark Thatcher, pleaded guilty in South Africa to unwittingly helping to bankroll a failed coup in oil-rich Equatorial Guinea, in West Africa.

Thatcher officially withdrew from public life on her doctors' advice after suffering a series of small strokes several years ago. But she made a brief return to the spotlight last autumn at a party to mark her 80th birthday.

"What [Winston] Churchill did in wartime, Margaret Thatcher did in peacetime," outgoing Tory leader Michael Howard said in a birthday tribute. "Her political will and her iron courage saw off the threats to our way of life that Britain faced in 1979. We all owe her an enormous debt."

Thatcher's spokesman was unavailable for comment on the funeral plans last night.

Right course, whatever the PM's motives - GERALD WARNER
THE question whether Lady Thatcher should - in the remote fullness of time - be entitled to a state funeral is not debatable to anyone with a sense of British and global history. Only in partisan Leftist circles could there be the least controversy on the subject. In Georgia (whether in the US or the former Soviet republic) the notion of The Lady not being so honoured would provoke incomprehension.

As the victor of the Falklands, the restorer of parliamentary democracy unvetoed by the trade unions, the re-energiser of the British economy, the liberator of the individual from state control and - above all - the joint destroyer of the Soviet Union, with Ronald Reagan, the claim of Margaret Thatcher to funerary honours is self-evident.

Seven non-royal individuals have so far been accorded state funerals: Nelson, Pitt the Younger, Wellington, Palmerston, Gladstone, Field Marshal Lord Roberts and Churchill. Disraeli was offered one but had left instructions to the contrary, which caused Gladstone, carrying rancour beyond the grave, to accuse him of "playacting". A state funeral is one at which sailors draw the gun carriage (dating from the horses bolting at Queen Victoria's obsequies); at a ceremonial funeral it is drawn by horses.

Now, the Labour Party is up in arms against a Thatcher state funeral. We have been here before. When Pitt the Younger died, Charles James Fox led the Whig opposition to the parliamentary motion proposing a state funeral: it was contemptuously voted down by 288 votes to 89. If we could accord a state funeral to Palmerston, the painted old satyr who presided over so many disasters, we can surely honour Margaret Thatcher, who succeeded so spectacularly in transforming our country.

Yet this is a political move by Tony Blair. He has always been semi-detached from his party. Recently they have come to regard each other with reciprocal loathing. As he prepares for the international lecture circuit, this gesture would put helpful blue water between himself and the party he despises, gaining him respectability among the geopolitical chattering classes. He may well be doing the right thing for the wrong reason; but it is the right thing.

Divisive politics split country in two - PETER KILFOYLE
EVEN a cynic like me was jolted by reports that the Cabinet Office is preparing a quasi-state funeral for Baroness Thatcher. I know that she has a keen admirer in the present Prime Minister, but how could such an accolade be justified?

Even the most ardent Thatcherites must accept that, despite her obvious inclinations, she was not Head of State - head of government, it is true, but without the historic triumphs and popular acclaim which led to Churchill's unique distinction. His finest hour was more than Thatcher's finest years. He brought the country together in its time of need, she split the country asunder.

The emollience of a Macmillan or of a Callaghan went unrecognised; Prime Minister Thatcher was the personification of malevolence towards those who were not with her. Attlee left behind the framework of the Welfare State which still defines our politics; she set out to destroy it. Wilson, maligned and then ignored, gave us the Open University, she gave us grant maintained schools. Even Ted Heath worked for consensus, she came up with the poll tax and two recessions.

Her fans might argue that she turned the United Kingdom around. That, she did, as the miners can tell you, or those still battling to revive shattered communities in our cities. Ah, her supporters respond, you cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs. Well, says I, she certainly broke hearts and minds as factories were shut down, and their employees thrown on the scrap heap.

Like her pupil, Tony Blair, she had a totally corrosive effect on the nation whilst in the grip of the arrogance of power. Few tears were shed when her own party brought her down. Too many had suffered from her narrow and vindictive approach to what should have been the common good. When the time comes, those who loved her will mourn her. The rest of us will simply remember.

Peter Kilfoyle is a Labour MP and a former defence minister

Ianofsmeg16
06-04-2006, 20:50
Good on her tbh, she deserves it, but she isnt dead yet right? or did i miss something huge?

Duke Malcolm
06-04-2006, 20:56
No, she is not dead, though you would think it to look at her.

KukriKhan
06-04-2006, 21:06
So UK PM's don't usually get state-paid-for funerals? That surprises me.

Banquo's Ghost
06-04-2006, 21:11
Maybe Blair thinks that if he sets a precedent, they'll do it for him. Perhaps they could be buried together. :idea2:

On reading the article, it seems as if Britain reserves state funerals for royalty and truly great, unifying leaders like Churchill. Canonised though she is by the unreformed right, most people of my acquaintance acknowledge her influence on the UK, but few think she was unusual. Knowing what I do about my British friends' views about Thatcher, any state funeral is likely to provoke an utterly awful display of partisanship.

The prospect of hard left groups (perhaps even moderates) staging some sort of massive protest during the funeral should make Mr Blair think again.

Big King Sanctaphrax
06-04-2006, 21:13
So UK PM's don't usually get state-paid-for funerals? That surprises me.

I apologise if I'm misinterpreting your post Kukri, but in this context a state funeral doesn't just mean one paid for by the state-although, it is paid for by the state. It describes an enormously fancy funeral-as-public-event which is normally reserved for dead royals and other notables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_funeral#United_Kingdom

Tribesman
06-04-2006, 21:25
They should definatelty throw a big party , so that the millions that she screwed over can dance on her grave .

KukriKhan
06-04-2006, 21:43
I apologise if I'm misinterpreting your post Kukri, but in this context a state funeral doesn't just mean one paid for by the state-although, it is paid for by the state. It describes an enormously fancy funeral-as-public-event which is normally reserved for dead royals and other notables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_funeral#United_Kingdom

No, you got it BKS. My bad... I should have dropped the 'paid-for' bit, as it's only slightly relevant who pays for such pomp. Looking at that Wiki link you gave, it looks like US (since our civil war) and Canada have State-Funeralled our chief executives, but UK does not. That still surprises me - I guess because I assumed the UK was all for any reason to have a ceremony - that assumption now proved wrong, at least in the case of your PM's

Banquo's Ghost
06-04-2006, 22:03
No, you got it BKS. My bad... I should have dropped the 'paid-for' bit, as it's only slightly relevant who pays for such pomp. Looking at that Wiki link you gave, it looks like US (since our civil war) and Canada have State-Funeralled our chief executives, but UK does not. That still surprises me - I guess because I assumed the UK was all for any reason to have a ceremony - that assumption now proved wrong, at least in the case of your PM's

I guess it makes sense in that your presidents are heads-of-state too, as British kings and queens. Therefore they all get state funerals.

British Prime Ministers are mere functionaries, servants of the Crown, and therefore barely deserve a brief obituary in the classifieds of the Times.

~;)

AntiochusIII
06-04-2006, 22:20
Hmm. I'm not British myself but I don't see Margaret Thatcher on the same league as those individuals who defeated the likes of Napolean and the Third Reich. And it would seem that this is not a common honor.

Oh well. Not my problem. :balloon2:

scotchedpommes
06-04-2006, 22:21
They should definatelty throw a big party , so that the millions that she screwed over can dance on her grave .

And hopefully tramp the dirt down quite nicely.

Red Peasant
06-04-2006, 22:41
They should definatelty throw a big party , so that the millions that she screwed over can dance on her grave .

Hear, Hear. At least if they throw a big junket it will confirm that the callous old crow is definitely dead.

Kaiser of Arabia
06-04-2006, 23:09
She should have annexed Argintina, Meh.

Boohugh
06-04-2006, 23:29
Hmm. I'm not British myself but I don't see Margaret Thatcher on the same league as those individuals who defeated the likes of Napolean and the Third Reich.

Well, you can argue she helped defeat the USSR, which probably does rate alongside those other achievements in terms of global impact.

Personally, I think she does deserve a State Funeral when she finally pops it because she's clearly had a lasting legacy on British politics and she did bring Britain kicking and screaming through a difficult period, arguably making the country stronger in the long-run.

BHCWarman88
06-04-2006, 23:39
They should definatelty throw a big party , so that the millions that she screwed over can dance on her grave .
How did she Screw Millions of people over,btw?

I don't really know what she Did or Not,not that it matters to me,but I don't see what's the big fuss about it.just give the woman a State Funeral,when she dead,she's dead...

JAG
06-05-2006, 12:56
They should definatelty throw a big party , so that the millions that she screwed over can dance on her grave .

Well said, very well said.

And as someone else pointed out, Blair is probably trying to set a precedent so that he too will get a state funeral. What a load of rubbish, no PM should have a state funeral and nor should any royalty, they should be left for only the truly worthy, people who through their work, brains and merit have improved the lives of everyone else. Not pompous prats.

Tribesman
06-05-2006, 13:16
How did she Screw Millions of people over,btw?

Blimey , where to start ?
Criminilising millions of citizens over a screwed up policy that every householder in Britain is still paying for , asset stripping for her friends benefit and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the massive bill , putting whole communities out of work for her political ideals , supporting funding and financing terrorists and dictators .........possibly the most devisive and widely reviled prime minister Britain has ever had , and Blair wants the tax-payer to pay for a state funeral ???????
Thank god I sold my houses and no longer pay taxes over there .

screwtype
06-05-2006, 13:22
So, I was reading my Sunday newspaper this morning (Scotland on Sunday, by the by), and I cam across this terribly interesting article.

Apparently, the Saviour of the Falklands is to be given a State Funeral.

Blair's always been a conservative in sheep's clothing. They should have thrown him out of the party long ago. He cuckolded the Party, and pursued hard right policies that would otherwise have been fiercely opposed had they been attempted by the conservatives.

His "Big Brother" schemes to track every car in the country and fingerprint every citizen are downright frightening. No conservative government could ever have gotten away with what Blair has done, and Britain will have to live with the results of his crypto-fascist policies for a long time to come.

English assassin
06-05-2006, 13:53
Wehay, yes, yes, YES YES.

Oh, wait. She's not dead yet?

you rotten bastards....

Banquo's Ghost
06-05-2006, 20:27
Oh, wait. She's not dead yet?

Reminds me of my favourite scene from The Addams Family film. A baddie has been catapulted into an open grave and Wednesday stands ready to shovel soil into it.

Pudsey asks, "Is she dead yet?"

The sweet girl deadpans: "Does it matter?"

:laugh4:

ShadesWolf
06-05-2006, 20:50
Im glad that the women who single handed put this country back on its feet, after the 70's and labour/ the union attempt to destroy it (for the record, as they are trying to do again now) will get a state funeral. If it had not been for her the Falklands would not be British.

Its a pity she could not have come in a few years earlier, perhaps we might still have had an industry.

Banquo's Ghost
06-05-2006, 20:59
Its a pity she could not have come in a few years earlier, perhaps we might still have had an industry.

Since she oversaw the destruction of your entire heavy industry and sold off whatever was left to the French and a select bands of crooks, exactly which industry might you have had left?

:inquisitive:

InsaneApache
06-05-2006, 22:07
They should definatelty throw a big party , so that the millions that she screwed over can dance on her grave .

Hah.. so by this I ascertain you mean the unions who were strangling the country, that is until the ordinary members (of the trade unions) had had enough of the undemocratic shafting of the working classes.

The last labour administration ('Crises, what crises?' "sunny" Jim Callaghan) did me a favour, after I was laid off 4 times in a year, I saw through these idiots....AND I still do.

Talk about 'public schoolboy champaign socialist', just makes me realise that Labour always has done, and will continue to do, make sure that the working classes will stay that. Poor. What a bunch of onanists.

Tribesman
06-05-2006, 23:35
How unusual , a yorkshireman that thinks maggie was OK , are you eligible for a grant for taking that stance ?
after I was laid off 4 times in a year, I saw through these idiots....AND I still do.

Wow you found 4 jobs in a year under callaghan, how many did you find in a decade under maggie ?

Hah.. so by this I ascertain you mean the unions who were strangling the country, that is until the ordinary members (of the trade unions) had had enough of the undemocratic shafting of the working classes.

Errrr .....what did my last post say ?????? But since you mention the undemocratic unions shafting their members , as a man of the dales surely you can tell me , what happened to the democratic union members(*******Scabs that they were) after the strike ,?
They were screwed even worse by Maggie and McGregor than the NUM were .


edit to add .....Since she oversaw the destruction of your entire heavy industry and sold off whatever was left to the French and a select bands of crooks, exactly which industry might you have had left?


And the main point concerning that is that she sold off everything for pittance , yet managed to retain all the debts and future debts for the tax-payer . Debts which are stiill accumulating , and just to put the icing on the cake , the beneficiaries of the asset stripping now recieve more government subsidies than were given when they were nationalised industries .
So not only were you screwed in the past you are severley screwed in the future .

Red Peasant
06-05-2006, 23:40
Im glad that the women who single handed put this country back on its feet, after the 70's and labour/ the union attempt to destroy it (for the record, as they are trying to do again now) will get a state funeral. If it had not been for her the Falklands would not be British.

Its a pity she could not have come in a few years earlier, perhaps we might still have had an industry.

*Choke* You what! She destroyed British industry, and the economy was always crap under her 'government' i.e. repressive regime.

InsaneApache
06-06-2006, 01:02
How unusual , a yorkshireman that thinks maggie was OK , are you eligible for a grant for taking that stance ?

Sorry to disappoint, however I am a Lancastrian, man and boy. I just happen to reside in Englands 2nd county. A grant? ...oh I see what you mean, because I'm a northerner I'm disavantaged somehow.

Wow you found 4 jobs in a year under callaghan.

Well it's better than relying on the dole.

how many did you find in a decade under maggie ?

One.

Errrr .....what did my last post say ?????? But since you mention the undemocratic unions shafting their members , as a man of the dales surely you can tell me , what happened to the democratic union members(*******Scabs that they were) after the strike ,?
They were screwed even worse by Maggie and McGregor than the NUM were .

Nope. I'm a Lancastrian, no Dales there mate. As for the Union of Democratic Miners, surely that was their decision. Something the left hate. The working classes using their grey matter. That is unless you would like to lump miners into the same bracket as stockbrokers.

ShadesWolf
06-06-2006, 06:21
LOL - I thought that would get you going. :laugh4:



Since she oversaw the destruction of your entire heavy industry and sold off whatever was left to the French and a select bands of crooks, exactly which industry might you have had left?

:inquisitive:


*Choke* You what! She destroyed British industry, and the economy was always crap under her 'government' i.e. repressive regime.

So where do you want to start. Shall we talk about the motor industry. Or do you want to talk about my favourite, this always get people going, the wonderful coal industry ?

screwtype
06-06-2006, 12:49
And the main point concerning that is that she sold off everything for pittance , yet managed to retain all the debts and future debts for the tax-payer . Debts which are stiill accumulating , and just to put the icing on the cake , the beneficiaries of the asset stripping now recieve more government subsidies than were given when they were nationalised industries .
So not only were you screwed in the past you are severley screwed in the future .

Speaking of which, did you know that the five countries in the world with the most foreign debt are the same five countries which were the main partners in the coalition which invaded Iraq?

Mere coincidence? You decide.

Idaho
06-06-2006, 15:04
She shouldn't get a state funeral. Not just because it isn't usual practice, but also because she is an evil old bat who should spend her last few hours alongside the royals struggling fruitlessly against the noose while her legs kick for purchase against the gates of buckingham palace.

rory_20_uk
06-06-2006, 15:11
And here we go into the whole "she saved us from the Labour idiots that managed to bankrupt the country". They managed to destroy far more - and seem to escape free of all blame.

~:smoking:

Duke Malcolm
06-06-2006, 16:26
I am intrigued by all this Thatcher-talk. I was born too late, just at the end of Her rule, and missed much of the business, only really catching the dregs of the Poll Tax business.

I heard tell that all she did was bad, a rhyme from my infancy goes:
Here's Maggie Thatcher,
Throw her up and catch her.
Squish her, squash her,
No more Maggie Thatcher.
And thus it is quite hard to find anyone who doesn't respond to the name with "Miners" and "Poll Tax" in the People's Republic...

Is there any (unbiased, preferabley) source on t'interweb whence I can easily find information concerning Her doings?

Idaho
06-06-2006, 16:56
Let me reccommend Dancing With Dogma (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671711768/002-3836373-9349614?v=glance&n=283155).

The reviews on amazon are funny. The first up is obviously an american right-winger who has for some reason decided to take his crusade to every corner of the internet. Especially ridiculous as Thatcher would have called herself a liberal in the British political vernacular.

The author is of course a raving socialist radical with no knowledge of the subject matter:
Ian Gilmour is a former Conservative defence secretary (under Edward Heath) and deputy foreign secretary (under Margaret Thatcher)

Tribesman
06-06-2006, 17:56
...oh I see what you mean, because I'm a northerner I'm disavantaged somehow.

My my , what a big chip that is on your shoulder , does it make you walk lop-sided ?
Read what I wrote , and understand , it is written in plain English so it shouldn't be that hard .....How unusual , a yorkshireman that thinks maggie was OK , are you eligible for a grant for taking that stance ?

rory_20_uk
06-06-2006, 19:51
Yes, the reviews are very polarised.

The first appears to understand that economics are dependant on more than the UK, and that whatever one thinks of Thatcher the UK was rescued from the disasters of Labour (the joys of the 3 day week and the bankrupting of the country). She may have been hated, but for some reason Labour was obviously viewed as even worse - else why oh why did she get re-elected repeatedly?

Unions were broken - thank God! The inflation that they were causing by repeated pay increases and ability to bring efficiency to its knees through labour practices were brought in line. Oh woe the miners lost out! Yes, they held a strike and the government did not give in. Smell the coffee - the real world beckons!

She was not a saint. But please let's compare and contrast her to the opposition leaders, and to the previous governments before deriding her. The previous labour were doing what the masses wanted, and in the long term not what the country needed. Mrs Thatcher had that mess to resolve, and yes the medicine was unpleasant. We can mainly thank her for having an economy in the top 10. How far did it fall under Labour?

We had to ask the IMF for aid in the 1970's - almost unheard of for a developed country!

Lies and half truths. Is the other reviewer saying politicians lie??!? That is news... :laugh4:

~:smoking:

InsaneApache
06-06-2006, 23:52
...oh I see what you mean, because I'm a northerner I'm disavantaged somehow.

My my , what a big chip that is on your shoulder , does it make you walk lop-sided ?
Read what I wrote , and understand , it is written in plain English so it shouldn't be that hard .....How unusual , a yorkshireman that thinks maggie was OK , are you eligible for a grant for taking that stance ?


Well you have found me out. As I reside about 5 miles from

Harry Ramsdems (http://www.harryramsdens.co.uk/)

It seems rather apt.